Why do muslims use the bible if they don't 'believe' in it?

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Do you speak Arabic? law taqdar an taqra'a hazha fa'anta 7imar

You have conveniently left out the part of the post where we pointed out your blatant misquote of the Quran here it is again
هَـذَا بَيَانٌ لِّلنَّاسِ وَهُدًى وَمَوْعِظَةٌ لِّلْمُتَّقِينَ {138}
[Pickthal 3:138] This is a declaration for mankind, a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil)...

furthermore which part of Sura 54 verses one and two-- with three different transliteration FROM THE QURAN do you not understand? I mean are you suffering from Attention deficit disorder or do you have problems with your occipital lobe that your vision is failing you? Please read before you type.. also verify from the Quran instead of other sources so you don't come across like a fool time and again..

no, i dont speak arabic now im sad :(
and most of the world doesnt either, clearly i've been misguided by EVIL flawed translations of the Qu'ran, as have other non-arabic persons who have taken the time to read it. A religion meant for "mankind" is limited to those who are fluent in arabic. awwwww, how unlucky are we all. give me 3 years, i will learn arabic just for the sake of this debate, read the Qu'ran in its entirety, THEN and only then will I be able to pose any questions
and attention deficit has what exactly to do with the argument? a better accusation would have been reading comprehension, but since my rebuttal clearly dealt with your claims then no, that's not the case with me either :)

and why did u mention 3:138 again, i already said it was 3:183 pal :D
and seeing as how you like to throw out random logical fallacies to attack my posts, how about you're continued ad hominem replies calling me a fool and suggesting i have some sort of disorder LOL
stick to the topic at hand young grasshopper, all i'm doing is quoting. and if i was so foolish why have you dedicated your entire day to entertaining my posts? hahahaha
 
I am not your pal!...
you write various assumptions and answer them for yourself which is mildly amusing!
There are 1.8 billion Muslims in the world only 20% of them from Arabic countries and it is the fastest growing religion in spite of your tedious effort here which inspires no more than a minor shrug of the shoulders... I assure you, your feelings about my religion mean squat to me!

You should at least know what you are talking about or Quoting when having a debate-- don't you think? I mean did your English teachers think it ok for you to read cliff notes and come argue the book? You misquote and you don't read answers---and you call your drivel a rebuttal?
 
For beginners name one line in the NT that is the Injil which was revealed to Isa(as) That has been completely left out. There is not a single statement in the NT that is the word of Isa(as).

It is true that Mark, John Paul and Matthew did witness events. But, we only read of their interpretations as was later translated by Paul. No where in the NT do we read the actual words of Isa(as)

Does this mean that the teachings of Isa(as) were not valid until we got Paul's version? Was not the words of Isa(as) good enough to have been preserved? People threw away or lost the true words of Isa(as) and after rejecting them turned and accepted the words of Paul.

The NT is the word of Paul and not the words of Isa(as)

lol what? the john paul mark etc's accounts were "translated" by paul? where did you get that from?
and nowhere in the new testament do you read the words of Jesus? Really?


"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by Me." - JOHN 14:6

"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses neither will your father forgive your trespasses." - MATTHEW 6:14-15

"For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted." - LUKE 14:11

^are those enough quotes? or are they "corrupt" now? these quotes are taken from the same books that Muslims claim prophesied the coming of Mohamad, so they should be valid correct?
 
lol what? the john paul mark etc's accounts were "translated" by paul? where did you get that from?
and nowhere in the new testament do you read the words of Jesus? Really?


"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by Me." - JOHN 14:6

"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses neither will your father forgive your trespasses." - MATTHEW 6:14-15

"For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted." - LUKE 14:11

^are those enough quotes? or are they "corrupt" now? these quotes are taken from the same books that Muslims claim prophesied the coming of Mohamad, so they should be valid correct?

Not a one of them do we read as a quote from Isa(as) we are reading what was quoted by John, Matthew and Luke.

The common language in use in the holy land at the time of Isa(as) was Aramaic. That would have been the language spoken by Isa(as) and the Apostles. Yet the earliest existing writings were written in Greece and written in Greek. Somebody translated from Aramaic to Greek. Aramaic is very similar to Arabic. A person who understands Arabic can understand Aramaic, and like Arabic it is impossible to translate into a non semetic language without loosing most of the meaning or changing the meaning.

The only Early writings I can find in Aramaic were those preserved by the Coptics and the Sabians prior to the coming of Paul. If you get a chance read the NT in the preserved Aramaic. But, don't look for Paul in it as it was written before his time.

Now going back to this part:

^are those enough quotes? or are they "corrupt" now? these quotes are taken from the same books that Muslims claim prophesied the coming of Mohamad, so they should be valid correct?

They probably are corrupt. It is just an interesting fact that your own scriptures would mention that. Sort of a good example as to how Jumbled the NT has become through translations and mistranslations. Besides I really doubt if any Muslims would ever attempt to teach Islam by using the NT. It is just a handy reference point to find almost common grounds with non-Believers.

Peace, Yes we will disagree and I doubt if we will come to any mutual understanding over the Nature of Isa(as) or the teachings of Islam. But, at least we can agree to disagree with mutual respect.
 
the significance of the NT being translated into Greek can be seen by looking at just one part in the original NT. Both the Coptics and the Sabians have retained the Lord's Prayer in the original Aramaic.

Here it is in the original Aramaic and with an English Translation. This is what it looked like before Paul got a hold of the NT.

The Prayer To Our Father
(in the original Aramaic)

Abwûn
"Oh Thou, from whom the breath of life comes,

d'bwaschmâja
who fills all realms of sound, light and vibration.

Nethkâdasch schmach
May Your light be experienced in my utmost holiest.

Têtê malkuthach.
Your Heavenly Domain approaches.

Nehwê tzevjânach aikâna d'bwaschmâja af b'arha.
Let Your will come true - in the universe (all that vibrates)
just as on earth (that is material and dense).

Hawvlân lachma d'sûnkanân jaomâna.
Give us wisdom (understanding, assistance) for our daily need,

Waschboklân chaubên wachtahên aikâna
daf chnân schwoken l'chaijabên.
detach the fetters of faults that bind us,
like we let go the guilt of others.

Wela tachlân l'nesjuna
Let us not be lost in superficial things (materialism, common temptations),

ela patzân min bischa.
but let us be freed from that what keeps us off from our true purpose.

Metol dilachie malkutha wahaila wateschbuchta l'ahlâm almîn.
From You comes the all-working will, the lively strength to act,
the song that beautifies all and renews itself from age to age.

Amên.
Sealed in trust, faith and truth.
(I confirm with my entire being)


How does that compare with the earliest known Greek translations? How do you know that everything else did not undergo the same metamorphisis.


Now if that was what Luke 2-4 and Matthew 9-15 are supposed to say if they are quoting Isa(as) how did the discrepancy come about when you read todays NT? My conclusion was that Paul did not want it to appear Isa(as) was reciting the Jewish Kaddish, so The actual quotes were kind of Greekafied. A touch of Poetic License? Anyhow, the words used in todays NT as being the words of Isa(as) as quoted by Luke and Matthew are not what Isa(as) said.
 
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Nazarene Transliteration of the Lord's Prayer

http://www.thenazareneway.com


Nazarene Transliteration of the Lord's Prayer

Avvon d-bish-maiya, nith-qaddash shim-mukh.

Tih-teh mal-chootukh. Nih-weh çiw-yanukh:

ei-chana d'bish-maiya: ap b'ar-ah.

Haw lan lakh-ma d'soonqa-nan yoo-mana.

O'shwooq lan kho-bein:

ei-chana d'ap kh'nan shwiq-qan l'khaya-ween.

Oo'la te-ellan l'niss-yoona:
il-la paç-çan min beesha.

Mid-til de-di-lukh hai mal-choota
oo khai-la oo tush-bookh-ta
l'alam al-mein.

Aa-meen.


Translation


Oh Thou, from whom the breath of life comes, who fills all realms of sound, light and vibration.
May Your light be experienced in my utmost holiest.
Your Heavenly Domain approaches.
Let Your will come true - in the universe (all that vibrates) just as on earth (that is material and dense).
Give us wisdom (understanding, assistance) for our daily need, detach the fetters of faults that bind us, (karma) like we let go the guilt of others.
Let us not be lost in superficial things (materialism, common temptations), but let us be freed from that what keeps us from our true purpose.
From You comes the all-working will, the lively strength to act, the song that beautifies all and renews itself from age to age.

Sealed in trust, faith and truth.
(I confirm with my entire being)

In Luke's far simpler version, 11. 2-4 NIV, it has become:

"'Father, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come. Give us each day our daily bread. Forgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who sins against us. And lead us not into temptation.'


The New Testament in Modern English (1963, tr. Phillips)
According to the New Testament, the Lord's Prayer is the name given to the only form of prayer Christ taught his disciples (Matt. 6:9-13). The closing doxology of the prayer is omitted by Luke (11:2-4), also in the R.V. of Matt. 6:13. This prayer contains no allusion to the atonement of Christ, nor to the offices of the Holy Spirit. All Christian prayer is based on the Lord's Prayer, but is also guided by that of His prayer in Gethsemane and of the prayer recorded by John 17. The Lord's Prayer is now comprehensive, the simplest and most universal form of prayer.
Our Heavenly Father, may your name be honored; May your kingdom come, and your will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day the bread we need, Forgive us what we owe to you, as we have also forgiven those who owe anything to us. Keep us clear of temptation, and save us from evil.

The Lord's Prayer Dated (1700-)

Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

The Lord's Prayer Dated 1611 AD (King James Bible)


Most modern English speakers should be able to understand this version of the Lord's Prayer. Note the use of u in place of v. It is not until fairly recently that u an v have been considered separate letters.
Our father which art in heauen, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth as it is in heauen. Giue us this day our daily bread. And forgiue us our debts as we forgiue our debters. And lead us not into temptation, but deliuer us from euill. Amen.

The Lord's Prayer Dated 1384 AD

Most modern English speakers should be able to understand some of this version of the Lord's Prayer when written. Spoken it would sound a great deal different; for instance, ou is pronounced like oo and in general the vowels have their continental value (oorra fahderr thut arrt in ai(r)venas ulwid bai(r) thee nahma, with trilled rr). Note the use of the letter þ, this has essentially the same value as "th" in modern English.
Oure fadir þat art in heuenes halwid be þi name; þi reume or kyngdom come to be. Be þi wille don in herþe as it is doun in heuene. yeue to us today oure eche dayes bred. And foryeue to us oure dettis þat is oure synnys as we foryeuen to oure dettouris þat is to men þat han synned in us. And lede us not into temptacion but delyuere us from euyl.

The Lord's Prayer Old English (c. 450-1100)

This version of the Lord's Prayer probably isn't recognizable by the majority of modern English speakers. 1000 AD is before the Norman invasion of England and therefore many of the words in Modern English that were taken from French are not yet present in the Language.
Fæder ure þu þe eart on heofonum si þin nama gehalgod tobecume þin rice gewurþe þin willa on eorðan swa swa on heofonum urne gedæghwamlican hlaf syle us to dæg and forgyf us ure gyltas swa swa we forgyfað urum gyltendum and ne gelæd þu us on costnunge ac alys us of yfele soþlice.

The Lord's Prayer in Greek

Matthew's second century mistranslation of the Lord's Prayer in crude Greek, the commonly accepted version of the Lord's Prayer from which all others are translated.
ΠΑΤΕΡ ΗΜΩΝ Ο ΕΝ ΤΟΙΣ ΟΥΡΑΝΟΙΣ
ΑΓΙΑΣΘΗΤΩ ΤΟ ΟΝΟΜΑ ΣΟΥ (what looks like π, is γι: αγιασθητω)
ΕΛΘΕΤΩ Η ΒΑΣΙΛΕΙΑ ΣΟΥ
ΓΕΝΗΘΗΤΩ ΤΟ ΘΕΛΗΜΑ ΣΟΥ,
ΩΣ ΕΝ ΟΥΡΑΝΩ ΚΑΙ ΕΠΙ ΤΗΣ ΓΗΣ
ΤΟΝ ΑΡΤΟΝ ΗΜΩΝ ΤΟΝ ΕΠΙΟΥΣΙΟΝ
ΔΟΣ ΗΜΙΝ ΣΗΜΕΡΟΝ
ΚΑΙ ΑΦΕΣ ΗΜΙΝ ΤΑ ΟΦΕΙΛΗΜΑΤΑ ΗΜΩΝ,
ΩΣ ΚΑΙ ΗΜΕΙΣ ΑΦΙΕΜΕΝ ΤΟΙΣ ΟΦΕΙΛΕΤΑΙΣ ΗΜΩΝ
ΚΑΙ ΜΗ ΕΙΣΕΝΕΓΚΗΣ ΗΜΑΣ ΕΙΣ ΠΕΙΡΑΣΜΟΝ,
ΑΛΛΑ ΡΥΣΑΙ ΗΜΑΣ ΑΠΟ ΤΟΥ ΠΟΝΗΡΟΥ.
ΑΜΗΝ.

Transliteration:
Pater hêmôn ho en toes ouranoes; hagiasthêtô to onoma sou; elthetô hê basileia sou; genêthêtô to thelêma sou, hôs en ouranô, kae epi tês gês. ton arton hêmôn ton epiousion dos hêmin sêmeron; kae aphes hêmin ta opheilêmata hêmôn, hôs kae hêmeis aphiemen toes opheiletaes hêmôn; kae mê eisenenkês hêmas eis peirasmon, alla rhysae hêmas apo tou ponerou. hoti sou estin hê basileia kae hê dynamis kae hê doxa eis tous aeônas; amên.

The 'Pater Noster' in Latin:

Prior to the Protestant Reformation, the Our Father was universally recited in Latin by clergy and laity alike. Hence it was then most commonly known as the Pater Noster. The rather curious English translation we have today is due to Henry VIII's efforts to impose a standard English version.
Pater Noster, qui es in caelis, Sanctificetur nomen tuum. Adveniat regnum tuum, Fiat voluntas tua, sicut in caelo, et in terra. Panem nostrum quotidianum da nobis hodie, Et dimitte nobis debita nostra, sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris. Et ne nos inducas in tentationem, Sed libera nos a malo. Amen.
 
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Only two contradictions of the New Testament have been mentioned, but others will be referenced when the Trinity, Divinity of Jesus Christ, Divine Sonship of Jesus, Original Sin and Atonement are reviewed.

How could the "inspired words" of God get the genealogy of Jesus incorrect (See Matthew 1:6-16 where it states 26 forefathers up to Prophet David, and Luke 3:23-31 says 41 in number). Or for that matter, give a genealogy to Jesus who had NO father? See II Kings 19:1-37, now read Isaiah 37:1-38. Why is it that the words of these verse are identical? Yet they have been attributed to two different authors, one unknown and the other is Isaiah, who are centuries apart; and yet, the Christians have claimed these books to be inspired by God.

Did a little digging, this is what I found:

Kingship

To understand the need for these two genealogies, it is important to understand the two requirements for kingship in the Hebrew Scriptures. These were developed after the division of the kingdom after the death of Solomon.…

One was applicable to the southern Kingdom of Judah, with its capital in Jerusalem, while the other was applicable to the northern Kingdom of Israel, with its capital in Samaria. The requirement for the throne of Judah was Davidic descendancy. No one was allowed to sit on David's throne unless he was a member of the house of David. So when there was a conspiracy to do away with the house of David (Isaiah 7:5-6), God warned that any such conspiracy was doomed to failure (Isaiah 8:9-15).

The requirement for the throne of Israel was prophetic sanction or divine appointment. Anyone who attempted to rule on Samaria's throne without prophetic sanction was assassinated (1 Kings 11:26-39; 15:28-30; 16:1-4, 11-15; 21:21-29; 11 Kings 9:6-10; 10:29-31; 14 8-12).

With the background of these two biblical requirements for kingship and what is stated in the two New Testament genealogies, the question of Jesus' right to the throne of David can be resolved.

Matthew's Genealogy

In his genealogy, Matthew breaks with Jewish tradition and custom. He mentions the names of four women: Tamar, Rahab, Ruth and Bathsheba (who is the one to whom the pronoun "her" in verse six refers). It was contrary to Jewish practice to name women in a genealogy. The Talmud states, "A mother's family is not to be called a family." Even the few women Luke does mention were not the most prominent women in the genealogy of Y'shua. He could have mentioned Sarah, but did not. However, Matthew has a reason for naming these four and no others.

First, they were all Gentiles. This is obvious with Tamar, Rahab and Ruth. It was probably true of Bathsheba, since her first husband, Uriah, was a Hittite. Here Matthew hints at something he makes clear later: that while the main purpose of the coming of Jesus was to save the lost sheep of the house of Israel, the Gentiles would also benefit from his coming. Second, three of these women were guilty of sexual sins. Bathsheba was guilty of adultery, Rahab was guilty of prostitution and Tamar was guilty of incest. Again, Matthew only hints at a point he later clarifies: that the purpose of the Messiah's coming was to save sinners. While this fits into the format of Old Testament genealogy, it is not Matthew's main point.

Matthew's genealogy also breaks with tradition in that he skips names. He traces the line of Joseph, the step-father of Jesus, by going back into history and working toward his own time. He starts tracing the line with Abraham (verse 2) and continues to David (verse 6). Out of David's many sons, Solomon is chosen (verse 6), and the line is then traced to King Jeconiah (verse 11), one of the last kings before the Babylonian captivity. From Jeconiah (verse 12), the line is traced to Joseph (verse 16). Joseph was a direct descendant of David through Solomon, but also through Jeconiah. The "Jeconiah link" is significant in Matthew's genealogy because of the special curse pronounced on Jeconiah in Jeremiah 22:24-30:

As I live," declares the LORD,
"even though Jeconiah the son of Jehoiakim
king of Judah were a signet ring on my right
hand, yet I would pull you off…
"Is this man Jeconiah a despised, shattered jar?
Or is he an undesirable vessel?
Why have he and his descendants been hurled out
and cast into a land that they had not known?
"O land, land, land, Hear the word of the LORD!!
"Thus says the LORD, 'Write this man [Jeconiah] down childless,
A man who will not prosper in his days;
For no man of his descendants will prosper
Sitting on the throne of David, Or ruling again in Judah.'
No descendant of Jeconiah would have the right to the throne of David. Until Jeremiah, the first requirement for messianic lineage was to be of the house of David. With Jeremiah, it was limited still further. Now one had to be not only of the house of David, but apart from Jeconiah.

According to Matthew's genealogy, Joseph had the blood of Jeconiah in his veins. He was not qualified to sit on David's throne. He was not the heir apparent. This would also mean that no real son of Joseph would have the right to claim the throne of David. Therefore if Jesus were the real son of Joseph, he would have been disqualified from sitting on David's throne. Neither could he claim the right to David's throne by virtue of his adoption by Joseph, since Joseph was not the heir apparent.

The purpose of Matthew's genealogy, then, is to show why Y'shua could not be king if he were really Joseph's son. The purpose was not to show the royal line. For this reason, Matthew starts his Gospel with the genealogy, presents the Jeconiah problem, and then proceeds with the account of the virgin birth which, from Matthew's viewpoint, is the solution to the Jeconiah problem. In summary, Matthew deduces that if Jesus were really Joseph's son, he could not claim to sit on David's throne because of the Jeconiah curse; but Jesus was not Joseph's son, for he was born of the virgin Miriam (Matthew 1:18-25).

Luke's Genealogy

Unlike Matthew, Luke follows strict Jewish procedure and custom in that he omits no names and mentions no women. However, if by Jewish custom one could not mention the name of a woman, but wished to trace her line, how would one do so? He would use the name of her husband. (Possible Old Testament precedents for this practice are Ezra 2:61 and Nehemiah 7:63.) That would raise a second question: If someone studied a genealogy, how would he know whether the genealogy were that of the husband or that of the wife, since in either case the husband's name would be used? The answer is not difficult; the problem lies with the English language.

In English it is not good grammar to use a definite article ("the") before a proper name ("the" Matthew, "the" Luke, "the" Miriam): however, it is quite permissible in Greek grammar. In the Greek text of Luke's genealogy, every single name mentioned has the Greek definite article "the" with one exception: the name of Joseph (Luke 3:23). Someone reading the original would understand by the missing definite article from Joseph's name that this was not really Joseph's genealogy, but his wife Miriam's.

Furthermore, although many translations of Luke 3:23 read: "…being supposedly the son of Joseph, the son of Eli…," because of the missing Greek definite article before the name of Joseph, that same verse could be translated as follows: "Being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph the son of Heli…".1 In other words, the final parenthesis could be expanded so that the verse reads that although Y'shua was "supposed" or assumed to be the descendant of Joseph, he was really the descendant of Heli. Heli was the father of Miriam. The absence of Miriam's name is quite in keeping with the Jewish practices on genealogies. The Jerusalem Talmud recognized this genealogy to be that of Miriam and not Joseph and refers to Miriam as the daughter of Heli (Hagigah 2:4).

Also in contrast to Matthew, Luke begins his genealogy with his own time and goes back into history all the way to Adam. It comes to the family of David in versees 31-32. However, the son of David involved in this genealogy is not Solomon but Nathan. So, like Joseph, Miriam was a member of the house of David. But unlike Joseph, she came from David's son, Nathan, not Solomon. Miriam was a member of the house of David apart from Jeconiah. Since Jesus was Miriam's son, he too was a member of the house of David, apart from Jeconiah.

In this way Jesus fulfilled the biblical requirement for kingship. Since Luke's genealogy did not include Jeconiah's line, he began his Gospel with the virgin birth, and only later, in describing Y'shua's public ministry, recorded his genealogy.

However, Jesus was not the only member of the house of David apart from Jeconiah. There were a number of other descendants who could claim equality with Y'shua to the throne of David, for they too did not have Jeconiah's blood in their veins. Why Jesus and not one of the others? At this point the second biblical requirement for kingship, that of divine appointment, comes into the picture. Of all the members of the house of David apart from Jeconiah, only one received divine appointment. Luke 1:30-33 states:

And the angel said to her, 'Do not be afraid, Miriam; for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb, and bear a son, and you shall name Him Y'shua. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High: and the Lord God will give him the throne of his father David; and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and His kingdom will have no end.'
On what grounds then could Jesus claim the throne of David? He was a member of the house of David apart from Jeconiah. He alone received divine appointment to that throne: "The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David."

While Matthew's genealogy showed why Y'shua could not be king if he really were Joseph's son, Luke's genealogy shows why Y'shua could be king. When he returns, he will be king.

Two things may be noted by way of conclusion. First, many rabbinic objections to the messiahship of Jesus are based on his genealogy. The argument goes, "Since Jesus was not a descendant of David through his father, he cannot be Messiah and King." But the Messiah was supposed to be different. As early as Genesis 3:15, it was proposed that the Messiah would be reckoned after the "seed of the woman," although this went contrary to the biblical norm. The necessity for this exception to the rule became apparent when Isaiah 7:14 prophesied that the Messiah would be born of a virgin: "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call his name Immanuel." Whereas all others receive their humanity from both father and mother, the Messiah would receive his humanity entirely from his mother. Whereas Jewish nationality and tribal identity were normally determined by the father, with the Messiah it would be different. Since he was to have no human father, his nationality and his tribal identity would come entirely from his mother. True, this is contrary to the norm, but so is a virgin birth. With the Messiah, things would be different.

In addition, these genealogies present a fourfold portrait of the messianic person through four titles. In Matthew 1:1 he is called the Son of David and the Son of Abraham. In Luke 3:38 he is called the Son of Adam and the Son of God. As the Son of David, it means that Jesus is king. As the Son of Abraham, it means that Jesus is a Jew. As the Son of Adam, it means that Jesus is a man. As the Son of God, it means that Jesus is God. This fourfold portrait of the messianic person as presented by the genealogies is that of the Jewish God-Man King. Could the Messiah be anyone less?

Sorry, here's the source: http://www.jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/5_6/genealogy

Don't know how to edit my post.
 
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Re: Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) Prophecised in other Scriptures.

Hi westcoast,

You see, the Bible is something that many use as their ultimate authority. Muslims do have other ways of proving Islam, but if someone believes in the Bible, and there are verses in the Bible which contain information of Muhammad, peace be upon him, then it is only logical for the Muslim to use it, since to Christians the Bible is their authority. This is why some Muslims might use it.

Also, some Muslims use their authority to have a brief overview of what in the Bible is true. So the Qu'ran says Muhammad was propechiesed by Jesus and so forth, so if the Muslim finds this then since this does not conflict the Qu'ran, the Muslim's authority, then he can use it, but when he sees that the Bible says Jesus is son of God or that Angels are sons of God, and the authority of the Muslim, i.e. the Qu'ran says God has no sons, then the Muslim knows not to use this, as this is definetly not part of the message that could have remained.


Alhamduillah, Wonderful response
 
the significance of the NT being translated into Greek can be seen by looking at just one part in the original NT. Both the Coptics and the Sabians have retained the Lord's Prayer in the original Aramaic.

Here it is in the original Aramaic and with an English Translation. This is what it looked like before Paul got a hold of the NT.
The Prayer To Our Father
(in the original Aramaic)

Abwûn
"Oh Thou, from whom the breath of life comes,

d'bwaschmâja
who fills all realms of sound, light and vibration.

Nethkâdasch schmach
May Your light be experienced in my utmost holiest.

Têtê malkuthach.
Your Heavenly Domain approaches.

Nehwê tzevjânach aikâna d'bwaschmâja af b'arha.
Let Your will come true - in the universe (all that vibrates)
just as on earth (that is material and dense).

Hawvlân lachma d'sûnkanân jaomâna.
Give us wisdom (understanding, assistance) for our daily need,

Waschboklân chaubên wachtahên aikâna
daf chnân schwoken l'chaijabên.
detach the fetters of faults that bind us,
like we let go the guilt of others.

Wela tachlân l'nesjuna
Let us not be lost in superficial things (materialism, common temptations),

ela patzân min bischa.
but let us be freed from that what keeps us off from our true purpose.

Metol dilachie malkutha wahaila wateschbuchta l'ahlâm almîn.
From You comes the all-working will, the lively strength to act,
the song that beautifies all and renews itself from age to age.

Amên.
Sealed in trust, faith and truth.
(I confirm with my entire being)


How does that compare with the earliest known Greek translations? How do you know that everything else did not undergo the same metamorphisis.


Now if that was what Luke 2-4 and Matthew 9-15 are supposed to say if they are quoting Isa(as) how did the discrepancy come about when you read todays NT? My conclusion was that Paul did not want it to appear Isa(as) was reciting the Jewish Kaddish, so The actual quotes were kind of Greekafied. A touch of Poetic License? Anyhow, the words used in todays NT as being the words of Isa(as) as quoted by Luke and Matthew are not what Isa(as) said.

what do you mean "before got a hold of it" as if paul's actions were to make the religion his or something. christians dont worship paul or hold him anywhere nearly as high as Jesus if that's what you're insinuating
secondly, i've found that same aramaic version of the prayer, and it lends itself to many different translations,i.e old english translation of it
"Our Father-Mother Who art above and within:
Hallowed be Thy Name in twofold Trinity.
In Wisdom, Love and Equity Thy Kingdom come to all.
Thy will be done, As in Heaven so in Earth.
Give us day by day to partake of Thy holy Bread, and the fruit of the living Vine."
etc etc (taken from the same source you quoted)
none of those languages (hebrew aramaic arabic) can be translated exactly word by word, so if one is to learn about a religion they should learn the ancient language? i mean that's what someone suggested to me in another thread, noting that my translated version of the Qu'ran isnt ''valid"
 
Isaiah 7:14 prophesied that the Messiah would be born of a virgin: "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call his name Immanuel."

how specific is that? additionally, the book of Isaiah is a part of the dead sea scrolls that were recovered in the dead sea like 60 years ago, none of which are "translated" but remain in their original language. what then would you make of the above quoted verse, if you found it in its original language in those scrolls? would you still deny the fact that Jesus was prophesied in the old testament i.e the scrolls from the Dead Sea?
 
DID YOU HEAR WHAT HAPPENED TO SAUL?
Chapter 43 (Excerpts)

One of the most influential testimonies to "Christianity" was when Saul of Tarsus, perhaps Christianity's most rabid antagonist, became the apostle Paul. Saul was a Hebrew zealot, a religious leader.... he was so vehemently anti-Christian ... .... Paul began his pursuit to death of "the sect of the Nazarenes" (Acts 26:9-11). He literally "laid waste the church" (Acts 8:3). He set out for Damascus with documents authorizing him to seize the followers of Jesus and bring them back to face trial.

Then something happened to Paul. (yeah right!)

And it came about that as he journeyed, he was approaching Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him; and he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?" And he said, "Who art Thou, Lord?" And He said, "I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, but rise, and enter the city, and it shall be told you what you must do." And the men who traveled with him stood speechless, hearing the voice, but seeing no one. And Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing; and leading him by the hand, they brought him into Damascus. And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.

Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and the Lord said to him in a vision, "Ananias." And he said, "Behold, here am 1, Lord." And the Lord said to him "Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for behold, he is praying, and he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him, so that he might regain his sight" (Acts 9:1-12).

The Encyclopedia Britannica describes him before his conversion as an intolerant, bitter, persecuting, religious bigot -proud and temperamental. After his conversion he is pictured as patient, kind, enduring and self-sacrificing.
 
DID YOU HEAR WHAT HAPPENED TO SAUL?
Chapter 43 (Excerpts)

One of the most influential testimonies to "Christianity" was when Saul of Tarsus, perhaps Christianity's most rabid antagonist, became the apostle Paul. Saul was a Hebrew zealot, a religious leader.... he was so vehemently anti-Christian ... .... Paul began his pursuit to death of "the sect of the Nazarenes" (Acts 26:9-11). He literally "laid waste the church" (Acts 8:3). He set out for Damascus with documents authorizing him to seize the followers of Jesus and bring them back to face trial.

Then something happened to Paul. (yeah right!)

And it came about that as he journeyed, he was approaching Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him; and he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?" And he said, "Who art Thou, Lord?" And He said, "I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, but rise, and enter the city, and it shall be told you what you must do." And the men who traveled with him stood speechless, hearing the voice, but seeing no one. And Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing; and leading him by the hand, they brought him into Damascus. And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.

Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and the Lord said to him in a vision, "Ananias." And he said, "Behold, here am 1, Lord." And the Lord said to him "Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for behold, he is praying, and he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him, so that he might regain his sight" (Acts 9:1-12).

The Encyclopedia Britannica describes him before his conversion as an intolerant, bitter, persecuting, religious bigot -proud and temperamental. After his conversion he is pictured as patient, kind, enduring and self-sacrificing.

Well, let's just assume that that really happend to Paul, just for argument's sake, would it not change his perspective on things? Indeed, would it not change just about anybody's perspective?
 
DID YOU HEAR WHAT HAPPENED TO SAUL?
Chapter 43 (Excerpts)

One of the most influential testimonies to "Christianity" was when Saul of Tarsus, perhaps Christianity's most rabid antagonist, became the apostle Paul. Saul was a Hebrew zealot, a religious leader.... he was so vehemently anti-Christian ... .... Paul began his pursuit to death of "the sect of the Nazarenes" (Acts 26:9-11). He literally "laid waste the church" (Acts 8:3). He set out for Damascus with documents authorizing him to seize the followers of Jesus and bring them back to face trial.

Then something happened to Paul. (yeah right!)

And it came about that as he journeyed, he was approaching Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him; and he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?" And he said, "Who art Thou, Lord?" And He said, "I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, but rise, and enter the city, and it shall be told you what you must do." And the men who traveled with him stood speechless, hearing the voice, but seeing no one. And Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing; and leading him by the hand, they brought him into Damascus. And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.

Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and the Lord said to him in a vision, "Ananias." And he said, "Behold, here am 1, Lord." And the Lord said to him "Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for behold, he is praying, and he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him, so that he might regain his sight" (Acts 9:1-12).

The Encyclopedia Britannica describes him before his conversion as an intolerant, bitter, persecuting, religious bigot -proud and temperamental. After his conversion he is pictured as patient, kind, enduring and self-sacrificing.

First, i'd like to thank you for bringing me into the light about Paul, because quite frankly i was completely unaware of his story. So thank you. Really
Secondly, seeing as how you doubt that a man can change or be changed by the power of God is pretty sad. The encyclopedia isnt needed in describing how Paul was prior to his change, i'm pretty certain the Bible covers that well enough.
Thirdly, Paul was "intolerant bitter persecuting, religious" etc etc, that's so sad :( ... yet paul isnt revered by any christians, not that i know of at least
which brings me to:

Sahih Bukari
Volume 2, Book 24, Number 577:

Narrated Anas:

Some people from 'Uraina tribe came to Medina and its climate did not suit them, so Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) allowed them to go to the herd of camels (given as Zakat) and they drank their milk and urine (as medicine) but they killed the shepherd and drove away all the camels. So Allah's Apostle sent (men) in their pursuit to catch them, and they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut, and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron and they were left in the Harra (a stony place at Medina) biting the stones. (See Hadith No. 234, Vol. 1)

Muhammad was so much better right? This is an accepted recollection of the acts of the prophet muhammad, having people's hands and feet cut off and their eyes gouged out with hot iron? Come on
Jesus spoke about love and forgiveness... Muhammad did that ^^
 
what do you mean "before got a hold of it" as if paul's actions were to make the religion his or something. christians dont worship paul or hold him anywhere nearly as high as Jesus if that's what you're insinuating

That appears to be the most significant time when the most changes occurred in the NT.

No Christians do not worship Paul, but they have been misled by Paulistic ideology. Christians had strayed from Christianity and have accepted Paulism and threw away the true words of Isa(as).

Peter was pushed into the background and given the Title of the first Pope and the Vicar of Christ. But, his words and what ever he had said was not preserved and was over ridden by the writings of Paul.

If Christianity had remained Christianity and the people had not strayed from the Teachings of Isa(swt) There would have been no reason for Allah(swt) to resend his word through Muhammad(PBUH).

Isa(as) did have the true word and he was a true Prophet and he will return to destroy the anti-Christ.

As Muslims we have much love and Respect for Jesus(as). It pains us to see how Christianity has corrupted his beautiful words and has spread so many lies about him.

If you want to read the Beautiful and wonderful truth about Isa(swt) read about him in the Qur'an. There are even many more Miracles that Allah(swt) performed through Jesus(swt) than what are mentioned in the Bible.

There is Much more written about Isa(as) than what is mentioned about him in the Bible. He was a truly magnificent and beautiful Prophet(PBUH) and the truth about him is much more beautiful than the lies and Blasphemy that are spread about him. Learn the Truth about Isa(as) and learn to truly love and accept Him.
 
That appears to be the most significant time when the most changes occurred in the NT.

No Christians do not worship Paul, but they have been misled by Paulistic ideology. Christians had strayed from Christianity and have accepted Paulism and threw away the true words of Isa(as).

Peter was pushed into the background and given the Title of the first Pope and the Vicar of Christ. But, his words and what ever he had said was not preserved and was over ridden by the writings of Paul.

If Christianity had remained Christianity and the people had not strayed from the Teachings of Isa(swt) There would have been no reason for Allah(swt) to resend his word through Muhammad(PBUH).

Isa(as) did have the true word and he was a true Prophet and he will return to destroy the anti-Christ.

As Muslims we have much love and Respect for Jesus(as). It pains us to see how Christianity has corrupted his beautiful words and has spread so many lies about him.

If you want to read the Beautiful and wonderful truth about Isa(swt) read about him in the Qur'an. There are even many more Miracles that Allah(swt) performed through Jesus(swt) than what are mentioned in the Bible.

There is Much more written about Isa(as) than what is mentioned about him in the Bible. He was a truly magnificent and beautiful Prophet(PBUH) and the truth about him is much more beautiful than the lies and Blasphemy that are spread about him. Learn the Truth about Isa(as) and learn to truly love and accept Him.

With all due respect, which I hope you know I do have for you, I've heard this line many times but nothing is supplied to point to the truth of this claim. Simply saying something happened doesn't make it so. I realize this is part of Islamic belief, that early Christians changed the message of Jesus Christ, for some untold reason, and that Paul is somehow the architect of this corruption. What do you believe gives evidence of this?
 
We should rename this thread "cut and paste war" can anyone think for themselves, or do you all trust a bunch of liars with agendas?
 
With all due respect, which I hope you know I do have for you, I've heard this line many times but nothing is supplied to point to the truth of this claim. Simply saying something happened doesn't make it so. I realize this is part of Islamic belief, that early Christians changed the message of Jesus Christ, for some untold reason, and that Paul is somehow the architect of this corruption. What do you believe gives evidence of this?

And with all respect to you. I doubt very much that I can give you a convincing argument as to why I believe that to be true. However, it is something I came to believe while I was still a Christian and was one of the reasons I left Christianity and become a self styled agnostic who called himself a Buddhist.


We know that at the time of Paul, Pauline doctrine began to make changes within the Early Christian Church. We do know that one of the first changes Paul made was to do away with the Requirement that a Person first convert to Judaism and then practice the Christian rite of Judaic Worship. The Early Christians considered them selves Jews and that they had simply fulfilled the early promises of Judaism, however they were still Jews. It strikes me odd that while Isa(as) and his apostles considered themselves Jews, somehow Paul took it upon himself to seperate Christians from Jews. Up until Paul, Christianity was a sect of Judaism it was not a seperate or new religion.

It is things like that and the obvious lack of any of Peter's words that makes me believe that Paul managed to hijack the religion and change it to his own beliefs of what he wanted Christianity to become.
 
And with all respect to you. I doubt very much that I can give you a convincing argument as to why I believe that to be true. However, it is something I came to believe while I was still a Christian and was one of the reasons I left Christianity and become a self styled agnostic who called himself a Buddhist.


We know that at the time of Paul, Pauline doctrine began to make changes within the Early Christian Church. We do know that one of the first changes Paul made was to do away with the Requirement that a Person first convert to Judaism and then practice the Christian rite of Judaic Worship. The Early Christians considered them selves Jews and that they had simply fulfilled the early promises of Judaism, however they were still Jews. It strikes me odd that while Isa(as) and his apostles considered themselves Jews, somehow Paul took it upon himself to seperate Christians from Jews. Up until Paul, Christianity was a sect of Judaism it was not a seperate or new religion.

It is things like that and the obvious lack of any of Peter's words that makes me believe that Paul managed to hijack the religion and change it to his own beliefs of what he wanted Christianity to become.

I know we aren't going to come to an agreement here, but I wanted to respond to some of the points you bring up.

As for Paul doing away with the requirement that a person first convert to Judaism. Paul believed, as did many other early church leaders, that Jesus Christ brought a New Covenant. Paul believed it was his duty as well as the duty of Christians as a whole, to spread the Message of Jesus Christ outside the borders of Israel as part of this New Covenant. In other words, to create a "new" Israel. Instead of believing that only Jews were the "People of God", Christians believed all that was necessary was belief, regardless of racial or ethnic origin.

I'm not sure what lack of Peter's words you are referring to. Could you be more specific on what issue Peter's words are missing from?
 
I'm not sure what lack of Peter's words you are referring to. Could you be more specific on what issue Peter's words are missing from?

This may possibly be a separate argument in your view. I was formerly a Catholic and Catholics believe that Peter was the direct successor to Isa(as) on Earth. (The First Pope) But, there is basically no historical records of any Church Doctrine that he established etc. It is like he vanished and then was over shadowed by Paul.
 

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