Why do you reject Islam

[Uthman]

Sahih Bukhari: Volume 1, Book 2, Number 43:

Narrated 'Umar bin Al-Khattab:

Once a Jew said to me, "O the chief of believers! There is a verse in your Holy Book Which is read by all of you (Muslims), and had it been revealed to us, we would have taken that day (on which it was revealed as a day of celebration." 'Umar bin Al-Khattab asked, "Which is that verse?" The Jew replied, "This day I have perfected your religion For you, completed My favor upon you, And have chosen for you Islam as your religion." (5:3) 'Umar replied,"No doubt, we know when and where this verse was revealed to the Prophet. It was Friday and the Prophet was standing at 'Arafat (i.e. the Day of Hajj)"​

​

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

SubhanAllah (Glory be to Allah), there is quite a bit for me to respond to here.

Firstly, as of yet I have not converted to Judaism, I remain a Noachide.

I didn't know that noahides eventually convert to Judaism. Perhaps you could explain more in the thread on Noahides.

reason 1: I couldnt beleive in a human deity, born of a virgin, who became a human sacrifice.

Agreed. You're first reason is a flaw in Christianity.

Reason 2: I couldnt believe that righteous people, who could not bring themselves to accept Jesus as a g?d (G-d forbid!) would end up in an eternal h*ll. Coupled with that, if G-d is a loving and merciful G-d who transcends time and space, and knows what the future holds, it was just plain sick and cruel to create people who did not have the ability to accept Jesus, who would go to h*ll eternally. I couldn't believe that the real G-d was like that.

Agreed. Islam teaches us that the righteous followers of their respective Prophets will go to paradise, and only the evil people will be punished. However, the previous prophets were sent only for the people of their time and place, and the final Prophet has been sent for humanity, that all followers should accept God's last message.

Reason 3: Hypocrisy....usually the clincher for most people leaving a religion.

Agreed. The Qur'an says:

61:2-3. O you who believe! Why do you say that which you do not do?
Most hateful it is with Allâh that you say that which you do not do.

Reason 1: Judaism believes that a human deity, born of a virgin, who became a human sacrifice are all pagan idolatrous beliefs, and are vile to G-d.

I agree that the idea of a "human deity" is not only pagan, but also self-contradictory.

The thing is that Prophet Jesus never taught his followers this. He taught them the true message of Islamic monotheism, just like Prophet Moses.

5:116-120. And (remember) when Allâh will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O Jesus, son of Mary! Did you say unto men: 'Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allâh?'*" He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say).*Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it.*You know what is in my inner*self though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the All*Knower of all that is hidden and unseen.

"Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allâh) did command me to say: 'Worship Allâh, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things.

"If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them, verily You, only You are the All*Mighty, the All*Wise ."

Allâh will say: "This is a Day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise) - they shall abide therein forever. Allâh is pleased with them and they with Him.*That is the great success (Paradise).

To Allâh belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein, and He is Able to do all things

Reason 2: Judaism believes the Righteous of all the Nations, as long as they keep the seven laws, have a place in the world to come.

I think you should learn about the definition of Islam. Muslims are not a nation like Jews are. Islam is the system that belongs to everyone who submits to Allah swt and follows His command. The difference between you and me, is that I have accepted God's final messenger as the source for his laws, while you are trying to follow the previous messengers who's time has expired. You pretty much already believe in the laws of Islam and Tawheed, but you simply haven't accepted Allah's final Messenger who was sent for humanity. All the previous messages were only intended for their respective nation and era.

The last message is to be accepted by all people.

Also, the concept of eternal ****ation has never existed in Judaism. All our souls are pure, we are tested on how much we use our free-will to tame our egos, and 'break-in' our egos, like a rider breaks-in a horse (ie, dont destroy your ego, make it work for you!). Judaism is about the here and now, making this world a place worthy as a dwelling place for HaShem, which was His intention all along. This world isnt a bad place, it is a place to be rectified and purified. This is why the Jews are not concerned with reward or an afterlife.

The fact is that this life is very short. We cannot run from death. This life is a test. Those who do good deeds here, will be rewarded in the hereafter. I agree that this world is not a bad place, but a testing ground.

By neglecting the afterlife, don't you feel that is injust for, say the victims of the holocaust who suffered terribly in this world, and neither will they be rewarded in the next life, nor will their killers be punished.

Is this justice?

And Reason 3: I am free to question and batter any 'idea' with a huge stick until I understand. There is no expectation of me to just accept any idea without knowing why. If something appears contradictory, I am not told to just accept it, I am welcome to question it, disect it and work through it until my brain is satisfied with the result.

And as I pointed out in my previous post, the same is true for Islam. This has been the way of all the Prophets, from Noah, to Abraham, to Moses, to Jesus, ending with Muhammad, peace be upon them all.

There are manifold reasons why I have taken to Judaism like a duck to water.....I could probably write a novel, but people would switch off half way through reading!

Yet, out of all the reasons you listed, you NEVER mentioned Mount Sinai!!

Where is your "wow" factor?

You have just proven my point completely. You accepted Judaism because you found truth in its message. If you examine Allah's final message to humanity, the Holy Qur'an, you will find a continuation of that message, a criterion of good and evil.

It is a book for anyone of any religion, and I wouldnt be surprised if a Muslim were to read it, they would agree with every word he says

Naturally, we would find much in common with any remaining true followers of Prophet Moses pbuh. The ones who studied Islam recognized the return of HaShem's revelation to humanity, with the final messenger.

Read what the Qur'an says about this:

And indeed now We have conveyed the Word (this Qur'ân in which is the news of everything to them), in order that they may remember (or receive admonition).

52. Those to whom We gave the Scripture before it, - they believe in it (the Qur'ân).

53. And when it is recited to them, they say: "We believe in it. Verily, it is the truth from our Lord. Indeed even before it we have been from those who submit themselves to Allâh in Islâm as Muslims.

54. These will be given their reward twice over, because they are patient, and repel evil with good, and spend (in charity) out of what We have provided them.

55. And when they hear Al*Laghw (dirty, false, evil vain talk), they withdraw from it and say: "To us our deeds, and to you your deeds. Peace be to you. We seek not the ignorant."

56. Verily! You guide not whom you like, but Allâh guides whom He wills. And He knows best those who are the guided.


So the people of the previous messages who study Islam will recognize the truth in it, and reject the corruption of people, or Al-Laghw.

Ansar - sometimes it seems like we are arguing when in actual fact we are agreeing. There are obvious points we disagree on, but I think they are the factors which do require proving to me.

Sounds good to me.

Ansar, I have been sitting and indulging at the 'banquet table' now for many years.

In your prvious analogy you likened the banquet to Islamic teachings which you felt you had no need of (not knowing that you were already practicing the remains of the Islamic teachings of Prophet Moses pbuh). Now your analogy has changed, so we're not referring to the same thing anymore.

Ansar, I am not 'rejecting Islam'. I merely find it 'unnecessary'.

Perhpas you should learn more about Islam before making a verdict, right?

Corruption and confusion has indeed spread in the previous messages of the Prophets, which is why God has sent the final message to the world. Of course there were true followers of Prophet Moses pbuh and Prophet Jesus pbuh who recognized that Islam was the revelation from God and accepted it because it was the same message that they were following.

Islam is not meant to replace your old beliefs. Islam was the message of Prophet Moses, as well. There's no reason for you to reject God's final messenger, even if you are following a previous message.

I am sure G-d answers you too in a similar fashion. G-d is not leading me to become Muslim.

A muslim is one who has achieved peace through submission to God and His message. Don't you feel that this goal is for everyone?

Think for a moment. You are a follower of Prophet Noah or Prophet Moses pbut, right? Now imagine God sends a final messenger to humanity to clear up the confusion over the previous messages, and sends His last revelation to humanity. Would you reject it because you were satisfied with what you were already following?!

Let's look at an analogy. There is an army in battle right? And their commander sends them a message. And they are doing well in carrying it out, but afterwards some aren't following it properly, others are confused as to some details of the instructions, so the commander sends the next message. You read the message and you note two things:
-it can be verified as an authentic message from the commander
and furthermore,
-it confirms the commands given in the previous messages and explains the details

Why reject it? Simply because you think you can follow the old instructions?

We are more similar than we are disimilar. I dont know why, if you say eternal d**nation isnt a key factor in the Muslims drive to make converts (you keep saying you've never mentioned it), that you wish that I should convert. I dont think you need to convert to anything, why do you think I should convert?

Its not a matter of eternal doom, or converting. Its simply a matter of our Lord sending a Final revelation to all humanity, including those who have been following the previous revelation.

It is a funny position that I am in, seeing people trying to follow the previous revelations when God has sent a fresh clear revelation to humanity to follow. That's all it is.

And I think you have answered your own question very well:

I think Muslims are on the right track, dont get me wrong. Being monotheistic is the natural religion for all mankind.

And that is what Islam is. Monotheism. A natural religion for all mankind. IT is the same message that has been preached to the previous nations by the previous Prophets.

Many non-muslims think that Islam started with Prophet Muhammad saws. No. Islam was taught by every messenger in the past.

Islam contains all the natural laws that you have found so close to your heart. It is the natural path for humanity. You agree that humanity should be united upon monothesism. Islam is that irrefutable monotheistic message.

A true Christian is a Muslim. A true Jew is a Muslim. A true Noahid is a Muslim.

Now the final messenger from God has come. Why shouldn't the previous muslims accept him?

 

[morrissey]

my responses will be interspersed in this style:

SubhanAllah (Glory be to Allah), there is quite a bit for me to respond to here.

I didn't know that noahides eventually convert to Judaism. Perhaps you could explain more in the thread on Noahides.

A non-Jew can choose to either take on the yoke of Judaism's covenant, if their soul leads them in this direction, or remain within the covenant of Noach if this is what their soul leads them to do. In Judaism, the woman is the spiritually superior one, and the holiness of the family depend on her. As a wider analogy, the Jew is likened to the man, whilst the non-Jew is likened to the woman. here is a link that explains this:

from http://www.inner.org/noahide/noach11.htm

We thus conclude with the thought that the rectified relation of Jew to non-Jew is a partnership, almost like the partnership of husband to wife. The wife, serving as a devoted helpmate, thereby expresses her existential lowliness and dependence on her husband, while the husband, sensing that the ultimate origin of his wife's soul precedes that of his own, thus displays his own existential lowliness and dependence on his wife.

All very equal - and G-d designed it that a non-Jewish person can become the 'masculine' if they wish to.....It is only the Jew who cannot pick and choose. (though the change into a jew is permanent, and cannot be revoked).

Agreed. You're first reason is a flaw in Christianity.


Agreed. Islam teaches us that the righteous followers of their respective Prophets will go to paradise, and only the evil people will be punished. However, the previous prophets were sent only for the people of their time and place, and the final Prophet has been sent for humanity, that all followers should accept God's last message.

Why does Judaism teach that there is no such thing as eternal ****ation (a temporary purification process exists, but the soul elevates once pure), yet christianity and Islam believe that Gehonnim/h*ll is a permanent fixture?

We believe that G-d is only good, so when we die all the evil has to be removed from our pure souls. It is likened to a diamond being cleaned in a fire. 'painful', but G-d wont stop cleaning us till he can again see His Image reflected back in us.....

Agreed. The Qur'an says:

61:2-3. O you who believe! Why do you say that which you do not do?
Most hateful it is with Allâh that you say that which you do not do.


I agree that the idea of a "human deity" is not only pagan, but also self-contradictory.

The thing is that Prophet Jesus never taught his followers this. He taught them the true message of Islamic monotheism, just like Prophet Moses.

5:116-120. And (remember) when Allâh will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O Jesus, son of Mary! Did you say unto men: 'Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allâh?'*" He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say).*Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it.*You know what is in my inner*self though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the All*Knower of all that is hidden and unseen.

"Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allâh) did command me to say: 'Worship Allâh, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things.

"If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them, verily You, only You are the All*Mighty, the All*Wise ."

Allâh will say: "This is a Day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise) - they shall abide therein forever. Allâh is pleased with them and they with Him.*That is the great success (Paradise).

To Allâh belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein, and He is Able to do all things


I think you should learn about the definition of Islam. Muslims are not a nation like Jews are. Islam is the system that belongs to everyone who submits to Allah swt and follows His command. The difference between you and me, is that I have accepted God's final messenger as the source for his laws, while you are trying to follow the previous messengers who's time has expired. You pretty much already believe in the laws of Islam and Tawheed, but you simply haven't accepted Allah's final Messenger who was sent for humanity. All the previous messages were only intended for their respective nation and era.

The last message is to be accepted by all people.

I would have to beleive a revelation simultaneously given to me, or a group with me in it, or a nation with me in it, or the whole earth with me in it.....

I believe the revelation of the 7 Mitzvot because they are written in my heart, and I see the rainbow in the sky as a witness to the event. Mohammed has never appeared to me and told me to follow him, I am being asked to have blind faith here and to feel 'connected' to something I feel no connection to.

I dont have to believe the Sinai event to be Noachide. I do however believe in the 7 Mitzvot, as the Noachides experience can be likened to that of Avraham's experience, when he defied the idolatry of his father Terach. We have defied the status quo, questioned the status quo, stood up for the Laws written in our hearts. No Jew has had to stand there and try and convert us, we have come to these conclusions on our own. Our connection to the Jews begins when we go to them with our questions, because what we believe seems to match what they believe (the proverbial "the nations will pull on the tzit tzit of the Jew to learn"). How prophetic! That is what I did

The fact is that this life is very short. We cannot run from death. This life is a test. Those who do good deeds here, will be rewarded in the hereafter. I agree that this world is not a bad place, but a testing ground.

By neglecting the afterlife, don't you feel that is injust for, say the victims of the holocaust who suffered terribly in this world, and neither will they be rewarded in the next life, nor will their killers be punished.

Is this justice?

As I noted above, the after-life is about purification. Gehonnim is deemed to last about '12 months' (1 cycle). I am sure all these innocents in the holocoust either merited immediate entry into the Divine Presence due to the suffering they already experienced on earth, or got in their pretty quick, and definately should be there by now.....

We believe that G-d wants us to make the earth a dwelling place for Him. This was his intention when He created the universe in the first place. It is still His intention, and by following the laws, as prescribed in our Noachide Covenant, we are purifying the world for Him to dwell here. This is what is defined by the "World to Come". It is this world, but this world in it's rectified state. G-d left the world unfinished. He created us to complete it. We can only do that whilst alive on this earth. This is why it is important to preserve life at every cost, and give everyone ample opportunity for Teshuva (Return to G-d). This is why the after-life should not be our concern. We do not do righteous acts, like a dog obeys a master for a reward of a dog biscuit, simply for reward in the after-life. We do righteous acts to rectify the world, as G-d has commanded us and this is His intention.


And as I pointed out in my previous post, the same is true for Islam. This has been the way of all the Prophets, from Noah, to Abraham, to Moses, to Jesus, ending with Muhammad, peace be upon them all.


Yet, out of all the reasons you listed, you NEVER mentioned Mount Sinai!!

Where is your "wow" factor?

You have just proven my point completely. You accepted Judaism because you found truth in its message. If you examine Allah's final message to humanity, the Holy Qur'an, you will find a continuation of that message, a criterion of good and evil.


Naturally, we would find much in common with any remaining true followers of Prophet Moses pbuh. The ones who studied Islam recognized the return of HaShem's revelation to humanity, with the final messenger.

I really dont know what 'new' things I can learn from Islam. Also, Mohammed didnt reveal this revelation to humanity, I certainly dont have any memory of him revealling this to me, or revealling it to any of my ancestors - this 'revelation' was just to him, and we just have to trust him that he wasnt having hallucinations or just making it up. As I said before, I dont have to believe in the Sinai event to be Noachide, even though it could mean that 3 million Jews had the same identical mass hallucination. The Noachide Laws are written in our hearts, the revelation is within my own heart, and I dont need a prophet to tell me this. Just as Avraham never needed a prophet to tell him, so to is it with the Noachide.

Read what the Qur'an says about this:

And indeed now We have conveyed the Word (this Qur'ân in which is the news of everything to them), in order that they may remember (or receive admonition).

52. Those to whom We gave the Scripture before it, - they believe in it (the Qur'ân).

53. And when it is recited to them, they say: "We believe in it. Verily, it is the truth from our Lord. Indeed even before it we have been from those who submit themselves to Allâh in Islâm as Muslims.

54. These will be given their reward twice over, because they are patient, and repel evil with good, and spend (in charity) out of what We have provided them.

55. And when they hear Al*Laghw (dirty, false, evil vain talk), they withdraw from it and say: "To us our deeds, and to you your deeds. Peace be to you. We seek not the ignorant."

56. Verily! You guide not whom you like, but Allâh guides whom He wills. And He knows best those who are the guided.


So the people of the previous messages who study Islam will recognize the truth in it, and reject the corruption of people, or Al-Laghw.


Sounds good to me.


In your prvious analogy you likened the banquet to Islamic teachings which you felt you had no need of (not knowing that you were already practicing the remains of the Islamic teachings of Prophet Moses pbuh). Now your analogy has changed, so we're not referring to the same thing anymore.

I think you mis-read/misinterpreted my banquet analogy. I was saying that I was sitting at the Jewish 'banquet', and christians try to tell me there is no food in front of me, so I should eat with them, and you too are trying to tell me there is no food in front of me, so I should eat with you. But I'm thinking, no thanks, there is actually a huge banquet of food in front of me, as supplied by Judaism, and it I am definately not starving, as you and some christians assume I am, when they try to convert me, I am quite full!


Perhpas you should learn more about Islam before making a verdict, right?

I dont know why I should have to - I am satisfied with what I am partaking of at present. I do believe I need to understand Muslims more, but I'm not a religious glutton, so I will 'finish' this never-ending meal that is satisfying me within Judaism... If I ever get hungry again, I would definately check out Islam, but for now, I'm not, and from the looks of the infinately long banquet table in front of me, I dont think I will be hungry again..... :cake: :cup:


Corruption and confusion has indeed spread in the previous messages of the Prophets, which is why God has sent the final message to the world. Of course there were true followers of Prophet Moses pbuh and Prophet Jesus pbuh who recognized that Islam was the revelation from God and accepted it because it was the same message that they were following.

Islam is not meant to replace your old beliefs. Islam was the message of Prophet Moses, as well. There's no reason for you to reject God's final messenger, even if you are following a previous message.

How can I reject something which hasnt been revealled to me? I dont reject the Noachide Laws, as they are written in my heart, and I see the sign of the Rainbow. Islam is not written in my heart, Mohammed hasnt been revealled to me. I have to go where G-d leads me, and G-d is not leading me to Mecca. I am magnetically drawn to Jerusalem...


A muslim is one who has achieved peace through submission to God and His message. Don't you feel that this goal is for everyone?

I have already found peace through submission to G-d. But I didnt need Islam to help me find this peace. "If it aint broke, dont fix it".

Think for a moment. You are a follower of Prophet Noah or Prophet Moses pbut, right? Now imagine God sends a final messenger to humanity to clear up the confusion over the previous messages, and sends His last revelation to humanity. Would you reject it because you were satisfied with what you were already following?!

If it were revealled to me, I would not deny it. But Islam was not revealled to me, and it was not revealled to my ancestors. It is a foriegn alien thing to me. The Noachide laws are written in my heart, fully revealled.

You telling me about Islam, or one of your clerics telling me about Islam, is not a 'revelation'. It is hearsay.

No one has to tell me about the Noachide Laws, they are revealled to me by my conscience, my pure soul that G-d breathed into me when I was born. As long as I rise above this animal body's desires, harness them as a tool to rectify this world, I can begin to reveal more and more the Noachide revelation that is written in my soul. What I know in my soul is not hearsay. How can that be?

I dont believe in 'converting' people to things. Who am I to judge someone elses soul? I have never walked in another's shoes? Who am I to judge the righteousness or the evil of someone else? I can only judge myself, I can only 'convert' myself. This is the nature of being a Noachide. It is an internal calling/revelation for which only an individual can respond to. Going to the Jews is secondary to this.

Islam is on the right track. Except where it massively judges other people. This is the big error of christianity. You dont know me, you dont know or see my connection to my Creator. How do you know where 'I'm at'? You cant possibly. Judaism never tries to judge where 'I'm at'. I go to it as I judge my self. It doesnt need to come to me and tell me my life is inadequate , like christians and muslims think they need to - come to me and tell me my life is inadequate. My life isnt inadequate. I feel like I have come home within Judaism, as a Noachide.



Let's look at an analogy. There is an army in battle right? And their commander sends them a message. And they are doing well in carrying it out, but afterwards some aren't following it properly, others are confused as to some details of the instructions, so the commander sends the next message. You read the message and you note two things:
-it can be verified as an authentic message from the commander
and furthermore,
-it confirms the commands given in the previous messages and explains the details

Why reject it? Simply because you think you can follow the old instructions?

Well, if the message comes from a commander that is foriegn to you, as Mohammed was foriegn to the Jews, both in nationality and in is ideas and definition of himself as a prophet (since the prophets had ceased within Judaism by then), would you not be suspicious that it is a trick? Maybe foreign armies have hijacked your Commander, and wish to destroy you and hinder your cause.

This is how the Jews feel. The Jewish nation is a family. If someone came to you from another country, in a foriegn language, with foriegn ideals and said to you that you are in error, I dont doubt you would think them strange and irrelevant to the perfectly functioning life as a family you were existing within. The Jews were told the Torah was not allowed to be changed, EVER. Then Mohammed, a forienger, in a foriegn language comes to them and says "change it", when they previously had been told by G-d Himself not to change it, they are going to reject him outright. What would you do, if for example, a group of a million american indians came to you and said "Allah has given us the final messenger, (remember G-d told the Jews that there message was final and everlasting) and he has told us you must convert to our religion or face eternal d**nation, since too many of adherents in the name of Allah have defied Allah and murdered innocent people, at events such as 911"....you'd be very suspicious indeed, since you have been told a conflicting message that Mohammed was the last messenger.

This is how it is for the Jews. You are telling them a conflicting message. Why should they accept it? [/FONT]

Its not a matter of eternal doom, or converting. Its simply a matter of our Lord sending a Final revelation to all humanity, including those who have been following the previous revelation.

But I didnt experience this final revelation, and neither did my ancestors. I have to have blind faith, and trust what you are telling me isnt a fable. I dont have to go to such lengths to trust what is written in my soul.

It is a funny position that I am in, seeing people trying to follow the previous revelations when God has sent a fresh clear revelation to humanity to follow. That's all it is.

I dont thing you've met many orthodox Jews - they arent 'trying' to do anything. Who are you to judge their experience? Do you know them individually? Do you know personally if they are feeling inadequate? What makes you such a mind reader? Are you psychic that you can read the minds of millions of Jews and see without a doubt that they are unhappy and inadequate?

I dont see how your 'revelation' is 'fresh and clear'. It would be 'clear' if it were written in my heart like the Noachide covenant (and the Mosaic covenant for the Jew). But Islam is a foreign concept to me, so therefore not 'clear' in comparison to the clearness of what I believe right now.

If it is clear to you, that is fine, it is for you. I cannot see into your brain. But I can see into my brain, and sorry, Islam isnt clear to me.

And I think you have answered your own question very well:

And that is what Islam is. Monotheism. A natural religion for all mankind. IT is the same message that has been preached to the previous nations by the previous Prophets.

Many non-muslims think that Islam started with Prophet Muhammad saws. No. Islam was taught by every messenger in the past.

Islam contains all the natural laws that you have found so close to your heart. It is the natural path for humanity. You agree that humanity should be united upon monothesism. Islam is that irrefutable monotheistic message.

A true Christian is a Muslim. A true Jew is a Muslim. A true Noahid is a Muslim.

Now the final messenger from God has come. Why shouldn't the previous muslims accept him?

Mohammed asks the Jew to contradict their Torah. If a prophet contradicts just one word of Torah, he is deemed a false prophet. Unless all his 'prophecies' align with each and every word of the 613 laws, he is false. He is trying to contradict G-d's own voice at Sinai.

Mohammed for the non-Jew? maybe....but that is not what Islam teaches. It asks the Jews to disobey G-ds laws, and that I find a bit questionable.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

my responses will be interspersed in this style:

I'm glad you're responding to my poijnts directly, but why don't you break up the quotes like I do? I think that would be even easier for both of us, and for anyone reading this. Simply put the quote tags around my statement that you wish to reply to.

All very equal - and G-d designed it that a non-Jewish person can become the 'masculine' if they wish to.....It is only the Jew who cannot pick and choose. (though the change into a jew is permanent, and cannot be revoked).

I believe that would be the flaw in the analogy. Men don't become women, and Women don't become Men. Men as a whole gender are not considered the righteous example for women. There are righteous individuals from both. Neither gender is locked into such traits.

Why does Judaism teach that there is no such thing as eternal ****ation (a temporary purification process exists, but the soul elevates once pure), yet christianity and Islam believe that Gehonnim/h*ll is a permanent fixture?

We believe that G-d is only good, so when we die all the evil has to be removed from our pure souls. It is likened to a diamond being cleaned in a fire. 'painful', but G-d wont stop cleaning us till he can again see His Image reflected back in us.....

Evidently you have explained the purification process very well, which was the teaching of alll the Prophets, and thus part of Islam, Christianity and Judaism. As far as eternal punishment is concerned, I would think that Hitler absoloutely deserves that for what he did. For absoloute justice to occur, even single inch of sufferening inflicted on someone because of you should result in the same amount of suffering to you. Hitler caused enormous and inconceivable suffering. His victims would have preferred to be burned than take what they did. And the suffering did not end immediately. All the firneds and family suffered to. The descendents suffered. All that must be payed for, and burning for eternity is equal to that.

Make no mistake, Allah is the Most Merciful, and the foundation of this very existence is love, as the hadith qudsi says: I was a hidden treasure that loved to be known so I created creation so that I could be known. Allah did not create us to punish us; rather, He created us to know and serve Him. However, whatever punishment that Allah has warned us of, know that the punishment fits the crime and no more. That's `adl (justice), which is one of Allah's attributes. Allah is PERFECTLY just, so if He says that people have earned eternal Hellfire, than they have earned eternal Hellfire. Allah says in the Qur'an that He does not wrong us, we only wrong ourselves. Thus, given the reality of this life and existence as a whole, given all that Allah has given us (which is everything!), for those who obstinately reject His oneness, which is the truth of reality for there is no other God and no other reality than there can be no other fate than eternal rejection, i.e., Hellfire. So, to me, it is more a question of us rejecting ourselves and our own eternal well-being than Allah doing anything to us. Essentially, Allah is just warning us of the reality of the situation and telling us to act accordingly based on what He has shown us through creation, guidance, and knowledge.

Also we must remember, according to the aqeedah (creed) of Ahl As-Sunnah wa Al-Jama`ah (i.e., the majority of Muslims), as elaborated on by the great Imam Al-Ghazali (d. AH 505/1111 CE) in his Foundations of Islamic Belief, One should believe that the believer in the Oneness of Allah (if he enters Hell on account of his sins) will be released from Hell fire after he has been punished, so that there will not remain in Hell one single believer. ... Therefore, not one single believer will abide in Hell forever; whosoever has in his heart the weight of an atom of belief will be brought out from there.

Accordingly, eternal Hellfire is due only for those people who have not even one atom's worth of belief in their hearts. Furthermore, we do not know who has what in their hearts. That is Allah's business and we should not concern ourselves in trying to figure it out by judging others. Rather, we should only concern ourselves with ourselves, for it is our selves that will ruin us if we do not look after them.

In terms of the question of the eternality of hellfire, we must always strive to understand through knowledge, remembrance, and contemplation that this entire universe and existence belongs to Allah. He created it, He sustains it; everything in it came from Him and everything in it will go back to Him. As such, He knows best how and why everything is where it is, and what its fate will ultimately be. Thus, there is no questioning why Allah does things, for everything belongs to Him! We need to learn who He is and how He does things, His sunan (plural of 'sunnah'), rather. For if we truly knew Him, we wouldn't ask questions such as why Allah does such-and-such. The Qur'an says very clearly that on the Day of Judgment,
He cannot be questioned concerning what He does and they shall be questioned (Al-Anbiyaa' 21:23).
We are merely recipients of endless mercy and bounty, which we did not earn but received solely out of the Creator's will. Let's begin with our very existence. How about the ability to breathe? How about our health and physical abilities? How about our ability to speak? How about the food we eat? How about the ability to think? How about love? The list goes on and on: all are acts of mercy and love from Ar-Rahman. So, given that Allah created and continues to create everything on a continuous basis, and is the Owner of all things in truth, where is the room for us to question? Who are we to question? Now we can begin to see, I think, the problem with those who arrogantly and obstinately reject Allah's oneness.

The life Hereafter will not be like this life. We have been told that the life Hereafter will be one of fixed states: Paradise or Hellfire and their degrees, not fluctuating states like in this present existence. As such, the reaping we do in the Hereafter from our beliefs and deeds here will be in the form of permanence and eternality, not of fluctuation and temporal change. Our time here is very limited. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said that our life here is the equivalent of stopping for a nap under a tree while in the midst of a long journey. So for those who reject Allah, permanence in the next life will be in the form of a horrendous state based on what such a person has earned here and what lies in the deepest recesses of his or her heart, for Allah says that on the Day of Judgment, that which is in the breasts will be manifested, i.e., the true state of our hearts will be uncovered. And if there is not even one atom's worth of belief in such a person's heart, there is no other possibility for him or her. For the end is with Allah, and there is no such thing as forever except with Allah. Furthermore, we must also remember that Allah only punishes those who have been sent the true message of his oneness, and only He knows truly who has received that message. Allah is All-Knowing.

I would have to beleive a revelation simultaneously given to me, or a group with me in it, or a nation with me in it, or the whole earth with me in it.....

I believe the revelation of the 7 Mitzvot because they are written in my heart, and I see the rainbow in the sky as a witness to the event. Mohammed has never appeared to me and told me to follow him, I am being asked to have blind faith here and to feel 'connected' to something I feel no connection to.

I think you have just answered your own point. The seven Mitzvot are part of Islam! Prophet Noah was a Muslim. Prophet Abraham was a Muslim. Prophet Moses was a Muslim. If you find that following the remains of Islamic teachings is very close to your heart, then you have proven my point on miracles. You would be able to accept Islam on exactly the same grounds.

With regards to your statement

Mohammed has never appeared to me and told me to follow him

As there is no need for such, as you have pointed out very well yourself. Prophet Noah never appeared to you, yet you follow his Islamic teachings.

With regards to your statement:

I am being asked to have blind faith here and to feel 'connected' to something I feel no connection to.

I am not sure if you are doing this to irritate me, but I have now explained three times that blind faith has no place in Islam, nor are you being asked to have blind faith.

And I can prove that you feel connected to Islam, because you are already a partial muslim!

Let's examine these 7 Mitzvot, and their Islamic parallel.

1. The following verse is a reference to the prohibition against
murder. God explicitly commands Noah (Genesis 9:6), "If one sheds the blood of the man (HaAdam), by man shall his own blood be
shed."

5:32...if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people

2. The following is an implicit reference to the prohibition against theft. It shows that permission is needed to take something that is not explicitly yours. "You shall not steal; you shall not deal deceitfully or falsely with one another" (Leviticus 19:11).

5:38 As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power.

5:39 But if the thief repents after his crime, and amends his conduct, Allah turneth to him in forgiveness; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

3. The below verse refers to sexual misconduct or adultery, as the prophet Jeremiah (3:1) says, "Saying (laymor), if a man divorces his wife..."

17:32 Nor come nigh to adultery/fornication: for it is a shameful (deed) and an evil, opening the road (to other evils).

4. The following verse implies that there are things which may not be eaten (the limbs of a live animal): "You must not, however, eat flesh with its life- blood in it." (Genesis 9:4)

5:3 Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah. that which hath been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death; that which hath been (partly) eaten by a wild animal; unless ye are able to slaughter it (in due form); that which is sacrificed on stone (altars); (forbidden) also is the division (of meat) by raffling with arrows: that is impiety. This day have those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: yet fear them not but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, Allah is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

5. The following verse is a reference to the prohibition against
idolatry; for it says in Exodus 20:3, "You shall have no other gods before me."

6:151 Say: "Come, I will rehearse what Allah hath prohibited you from": Do not ascribe divinity, in any way, to aught beside Him; be good to your parents; kill not your children on a plea of want;- We provide sustenance for you and for them;- come not nigh to shameful deeds. Whether open or secret; take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.

6. The following verse implies the prohibition against blasphemy. As it says in Leviticus 24:16, "He who blasphemes the name of the Lord (Hashem) shall die."

39:32 Who, then, doth more wrong than one who utters a lie concerning Allah, and rejects the Truth when it comes to him; is there not in Hell an abode for blasphemers?

7. What follows is a reference to laws of justice for it says in
Genesis 18:19, "For I have known him so he will command (Yitzaveh) his children after him to keep the way of the Lord and righteousness and justice."

16:90 God commands justice and doing good and giving to relatives. And He forbids indecency and doing wrong and tyranny. He warns you so that hopefully you will pay heed

There you have it. Now you have no excuse not to believe Islam, because what you find written on your heart is Islamic teachings. You are following a small portion of the whole.

I highly encourage that you learn about Islam, as it seems like it would suit you perfectly. Please read at least a few of the articles here:

http://www.beconvinced.com

I dont have to believe the Sinai event to be Noachide. I do however believe in the 7 Mitzvot, as the Noachides experience can be likened to that of Avraham's experience, when he defied the idolatry of his father Terach. We have defied the status quo, questioned the status quo, stood up for the Laws written in our hearts.

Well said. Contemplate on the following verses:

2:130-141 And who turns away from the religion of Abraham (i.e. Islâmic Monotheism) except him who befools himself? Truly, We chose him in this world and verily, in the Hereafter he will be among the righteous.

When his Lord said to him, "Submit (i.e. be a Muslim)!" He said, "I have submitted myself (as a Muslim) to the Lord of the Universe."

And this (submission to Allâh, Islâm) was enjoined by Abraham upon his sons and by Jacob, (saying), "O my sons! Allâh has chosen for you the (true) religion, then die not except in the Faith of Islâm (as Muslims - Islâmic Monotheism)."

Or were you witnesses when death approached Jacob? When he said unto his sons, "What will you worship after me?" They said, "We shall worship your God, the God of your fathers, Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, One God, and to Him we submit (in Islâm)."

That was a nation who has passed away. They shall receive the reward of what they earned and you of what you earn. And you will not be asked of what they used to do.

And they say, "Be Jews or Christians, then you will be guided." Say, "Nay, (We follow) only the religion of Abraham, Hanifa (Islâmic Monotheism), and he was not of those who worshipped others along with Allâh."

Say (O Muslims), "We believe in Allâh and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and to Al-Asbât [the twelve sons of Jacob], and that which has been given to Moses and Jesus, and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Islâm)."

So if they believe in the like of that which you believe, then they are rightly guided, but if they turn away, then they are only in opposition. So Allâh will suffice you against them. And He is the All-Hearer, the All-Knower.

[Our Sibghah (religion) is] the Sibghah (Religion) of Allâh (Islâm) and which Sibghah (religion) can be better than Allâh's? And we are His worshippers.

Say, "Dispute you with us about Allâh while He is our Lord and your Lord? And we are to be rewarded for our deeds and you for your deeds. And we are sincere to Him in worship and obedience (i.e. we worship Him Alone and none else, and we obey His Orders)."

Or say you that Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and Al-Asbât [the twelve sons of Jacob] were Jews or Christians? Say, "Do you know better or does Allâh (knows better...; that they all were Muslims)? And who is more unjust than he who conceals the testimony he has from Allâh? And Allâh is not unaware of what you do."

That was a nation who has passed away. They shall receive the reward of what they earned, and you of what you earn. And you will not be asked of what they used to do.

I really dont know what 'new' things I can learn from Islam.

I suppose you want know until you start to research Islam. Islam is your birthright.

Also, Mohammed didnt reveal this revelation to humanity, I certainly dont have any memory of him revealling this to me, or revealling it to any of my ancestors - this 'revelation' was just to him, and we just have to trust him that he wasnt having hallucinations or just making it up.

Well I was going to answer this with the miracles at the evidence of Prophecy, but I noticed you answered it far better yourself:

The Noachide Laws are written in our hearts, the revelation is within my own heart, and I dont need a prophet to tell me this. Just as Avraham never needed a prophet to tell him, so to is it with the Noachide.

Prophet Noah and Prophet Abraham preached Islam. That is why we find such simmilarities. It is the same faith. You are simply following a second-hand old worn-out hand-me-down version, while I am offering you a fresh one.

I think you mis-read/misinterpreted my banquet analogy. I was saying that I was sitting at the Jewish 'banquet', and christians try to tell me there is no food in front of me, so I should eat with them, and you too are trying to tell me there is no food in front of me, so I should eat with you.

I think you have misunderstood as well. I'm not saying that you have no food. I agree the Christians will say that, and you would say the same about them. But what I say is that you are eating my food without knowing it!

2:113 The Jews say: "The Christians have naught (to stand) upon; and the Christians say: "The Jews have naught (To stand) upon." Yet they (Profess to) study the (same) Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but Allah will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment.


The rest of your comments are just repeating the same point which I have answered, but I did have a question about..

I see the sign of the Rainbow.

Which verse of the Tanakh mentions this?

I have already found peace through submission to G-d. But I didnt need Islam to help me find this peace. "If it aint broke, dont fix it".

:lol: You still don't realize what Islam is. You have pretty much said, "I already have Islam, so I don't need Islam". You are practicing a part of Islam. You just don't know it. You're pretty much a muslim already!

If it were revealled to me, I would not deny it. But Islam was not revealled to me, and it was not revealled to my ancestors. It is a foriegn alien thing to me. The Noachide laws are written in my heart, fully revealled.

I thank you so much for this statement. According to this, you have no reason to deny Islam! The Noahide laws are part of Islam! Islam is written in your heart as you have undoubtedly proven!

I think you should really find out who you are. Please start learning the basics of Islam here:
http://www.beconvinced.com

And when you are ready, you can start reading the Qur'an here:
http://web.umr.edu/~msaumr/Quran/

Start at the beginning and just read a few verses everyday. You will never be able to deny that these verses are written in your heart.


And I leave with your own words to think about:

It would be 'clear' if it were written in my heart like the Noachide covenant (and the Mosaic covenant for the Jew).

 

[morrissey]

Ansar, I dont believe in converting people to a 'religion'.

But for arguments sake, I could turn the tables on you, and say that really, you are a Noachide,not a muslim, and if you just gave up the distractions of Islam, you would find your connection to your Creator is clearer, like fog or smoke clearing, and experiencing a breath of fresh air.

I could tell you, how you are limiting yourself, how there is a fountain of knowledge and an aladdins cave of infinite treasures that are their for the taking, if you just open your mind and learn about Judaism and Noachidism.

I believe in my heart that being a Noachide is the original religion after the flood. This is transcribed in the Torah, so I go the Jews who received this Torah and learn from them. They got the Torah before Mohammed got the Quran. I want to go further back in time, closer to the source, and the Jews are closer to that source, from the evidence I have witnessed.

Unless you can prove to me, without a doubt in my mind, that the Torah has been re-written, I am sorry....

You are trying to sell ice to an eskimo.....I just dont need it.....

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Ansar, I dont believe in converting people to a 'religion'.

I don't think I can convert anyone. Converting is not for human beings. God guides people to the straight path.

But for arguments sake, I could turn the tables on you, and say that really, you are a Noachide,not a muslim,

I never said you are not a Noahide, and I claimed to be a Noahide myself! A Muslim is anyone who submits to God and follows His messenger. Prophet Noah preached Islam, so any true Noahide is a Muslim. But keep in mind that all previous messengers were sent only to their people and era.

and if you just gave up the distractions of Islam,

What distractions? Islam is a sytem that eliminates distractions. It does not have any. It is very frustrating to discuss this issue with you, when you know so little about Islam, and are not willing to learn more either.

you would find your connection to your Creator is clearer, like fog or smoke clearing, and experiencing a breath of fresh air.

No breath of fresh air has tasted better than the feeling of My Lord's infinitely warm love upon my heart.

if you just open your mind and learn about Judaism and Noachidism.

How do you open something that is already open?! I have always had an open-mind to Judaism and Noachidism, and I am forever learning about these paths. The difference between me and you, is that you have closed your mind to Islam, knowing almost nothing about it, while I have and always will, retain an open-mind to all other ways of life.

I believe in my heart that being a Noachide is the original religion after the flood.

I agree, but the Prophets NEVER told their followers to name their religion after their Prophet! Prophet Noah preached Islam. Islam means peace achieved through submission to God. This is what has been taught by all the Prophets. You are simply following the older, remains of this way, while I am following it directly from God's latest revelation.

They got the Torah before Mohammed got the Quran. I want to go further back in time, closer to the source, and the Jews are closer to that source, from the evidence I have witnessed.

Is this a logical argument? If God sends a second revelation, you will reject it because it is new? And what do you mean by, "closer to the source"? God is always with us. He is not isolated in time!

Unless you can prove to me, without a doubt in my mind, that the Torah has been re-written, I am sorry....

I don't have to prove that to prove this case at all. Even if the Torah was perfect and flawless, and God sent another revelation, you would still have to accept it.

Nevertheless, It will prove no challenge to prove that the Torah contains errors in it, but my question to you is, what level of corruption do you feel is necessary?

Currently, as a Noahide, you are following an empty set of laws without any spirit behind them. You have no form of Ibadah (worship), no comprehensive system that addresses political, social, environmental, physical, mental, spiritual spheres of life. No Holy Book to speak to you God's words and guidance. No traditions of a Prophet to extend to you the warmth of truth.

That is exactly why you have to keep turning to the Jews, because they have an organized religion and you don't.

 

[kadafi]

I believe in my heart that being a Noachide is the original religion after the flood. This is transcribed in the Torah, so I go the Jews who received this Torah and learn from them. They got the Torah before Mohammed got the Quran. I want to go further back in time, closer to the source, and the Jews are closer to that source, from the evidence I have witnessed.

Unless you can prove to me, without a doubt in my mind, that the Torah has been re-written, I am sorry....

Greetings morrisey, on what evidence do you conclude that this Taurat (Torah) that you perceive today is the unadulterated Word of God dictated to Musa (Peace be upon him).

Can you honestly provide credible evidence regardin' the texual reliablity of the present-day Taurat (Torah)?

The final answer will be no because what you've stated in order to prove that the Torah is the Word of God is theologically speaking. In other words, that is your firm belief as a Jew (or Noachide).

It's widely accepted among the scholars that the Torah suffers from textual inconsistency and is the work of multi-authorship.

Perhaps you may have come accross the the term Documentary Hypothesis which was formulated in the 19th century and popularized supported with credible evidence by Richard Elliot Friedman in his book 'Who wrote the Bible?'. They may differ who those authors were and exactly which time-period it was written but they unanimously agree that it was the works of multiple hands.

Allah (Exalted is He) said in al-Baqarah verse 75 (interpretation of the meaning):

“Do you (faithful believers) covet that they will belive in your religion in spite of the fact that a party of them (Jewish rabbis) used to hear the Word of Allaah (the Tawraat), then they used to change it knowingly after they understood it?”

And in al-Maa’idah verse 13 (interpretation of the meaning):
“So because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard. They change the words from their (right) places and have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them. And you will not cease to discover deceit in them, except a few of them. But forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds). Verily, Allaah loves al-Muhsineen (good-doers).”

The apologists, attempted unsuccessfully to refute this claim and thus are quite evasive when it comes to textual criticism.

Moreover, it's widely accepted that there is no authoritative text regardin' the Torah 'till around 100 CE.

The methods used to determine the authenticity and the preservation of the Qur'an exceeds tremendously when compared with the methods used to preserve the present-day Scriptures such as the Injeel (Gospel) and the Taurat (Torah).

We have manuscripts dated to first half of the first century of hijra (i.e., before 50 AH / 670 CE).

Christian missionary from University of Oxford, Sir Willium Muir in the book 'The Life Of Mohammad'

The recension of 'Uthman has been handed down to us unaltered. So carefully, indeed, has it been preserved, that there are no variations of importance, - we might almost say no variations at all, - amongst the innumerable copies of the Koran scattered throughout the vast bounds of empire of Islam. Contending and embittered factions, taking their rise in the murder of 'Uthman himself within a quarter of a century from the death of Muhammad have ever since rent the Muslim world. Yet but ONE KORAN has always been current amongst them.... There is probably in the world no other work which has remained twelve centuries with so pure a text.

Notice how he states that there is no other work which has remained so pure for so long. This automatically refutes the assertion status of the Torah and the Bible.

Peace

 

[morrissey]

Currently, as a Noahide, you are following an empty set of laws without any spirit behind them. You have no form of Ibadah (worship), no comprehensive system that addresses political, social, environmental, physical, mental, spiritual spheres of life. No Holy Book to speak to you God's words and guidance. No traditions of a Prophet to extend to you the warmth of truth.

That is exactly why you have to keep turning to the Jews, because they have an organized religion and you don't.

;D

Ansar......

oh dear....presumptions presumptions.

I have come here and dropped my presumptions which are fuelled by the media, left right and centre, and even my real life experiences when I have visited Israel in the past - as a non-Jew - and witnessed the situation there.


And then you make the presumptions of all presumptions when you make the naive comment you did above....

unbelievable!

you make it up as you go along..... ;D

you didnt even know about the concept of a Noachide until a couple of weeks ago, if that...and know you talk about us as though you are the expert......

I dont need a 'path' to G-d. I have merely stopped turning my back to Him, He is with me, and I cannot escape Him. Why do I need a path to Him? I have never been separated. I only tried to kid myself that I was.

You expect me to do irrelevant things like make pilgrimages to Mecca, and agree with your slanderous comments towards the Jews, in regards to their precious Torah being corrupted, (which does belong to mankind btw, just think of them as the librarians).....

I will not commit unfounded Lashon HaRa against the Jews. It is racist. Though it has not incited you to murder, it has incited others in the name of your 'path', to murder innocents. That is Lashon HaRa. It is like a cancer that eats up what is healthy. If your path has committed Lashon HaRa against the Jews, just as the christians committed Lashon HaRa against the Jews, then I have to reject it. It may have healthy aspects, but if there is a cancer of slander within it, then the healthy parts will eventually be eaten up from within. And it's not just about the Jews. Anyone who your religion states is evil or corrupt merely because they reject your prophet.

sorry Ansar

ice to an eskimo. I have plenty of ice. I dont need yours, especially if it has a fly frozen in the middle of it, in the form of Lashon HaRa against the Jews.

 

[morrissey]

Can you honestly provide credible evidence regardin' the texual reliablity of the present-day Taurat (Torah)?


Peace

Noachides arent about 'converting' and neither is Judaism. You either have it in your soul, or you dont.

I am not here to prove anything to you, as I really cannot be bothered with whether you believe what I do or not. As far as a Jew and Noachide is concerned about non-Jews, if you keep the 7 laws, you are keeping the covenant. No conversion necessary, no sign on the dotted line, no praying towards cities we've never lived in.

But Kadafi,

You are trying to prove something to me by asking me to convert to Islam.
That is the name of this thread: Why do you reject Islam?

I tell you the reasons, you then try to prove to me they are unfounded.

One reason is the slanderous uneducated belief that the Jews corrupted the Torah. I am waiting for you to prove this to me without a doubt.

somebody's opinion, remains just a hot air opinion.

I need world changing evidence laid out on the table. Otherwise I dont understand why I must change my world.

Notice how he states that there is no other work which has remained so pure for so long. This automatically refutes the assertion status of the Torah and the Bible.

It's so funny, you use a christian missionary to support your claims. A christian missionary supports the claims that there is a human deity. How can you trust any utterence out of his mouth, if he is capable of uttering nonsense about his deity?

And you have to understand the definition of the bible. The bible is the wierd translations that the christians use, with mangled language, mistranslations.

the TaNaKh, on the other hand is a different matter. And the most important document that has remained unchanged is the Torah, as the christians refer to as the first 5 books. Everything else has to align with this Torah. You could make up a fiction novel, and as long as it does not add or subtract from the Torah, ie contradict the Torah, it is a fine source. The book of Job is possibly a work of fiction, but to the Jews that is irrelevant. It does not contradict the Torah, so it is fine.

Your Quran on the other hand does contradict the Torah, so it cannot be added on. It asks the Jews to break the very laws that G-d gave them Himself, without even having to use the voice of a prophet. He used His own voice. The Torah observant Jew is not going to disobey G-d for anyone, no matter how many miracles he can perform, and how many signs and wonders he brings. They know it is a test, and tests werent meant to be easy.

This is where the ball remains in your court to prove to me, without a doubt, that the Torah is corrupted. How, why, when, where, and with eyewitness accounts of more than just a couple of people, arcaeological evidence of the original Torah etc. Peoples opinions, like your christian missionary, are hot air.

If you cant prove this to me, then I have no reason to convert.

 

[kadafi]

I am not here to prove anything to you, as I really cannot be bothered with whether you believe what I do or not.

Hi, morrissey. I'm disappointed that you do not want to offer your evidence for makin' such claims while in reality, your claims do not hold up in the Academic world. Fideism is a concept that I strongly dislike.

But Kadafi,

You are trying to prove something to me by asking me to convert to Islam.
That is the name of this thread: Why do you reject Islam?

Dear morrissey, please do not put words in my mouths. I cannot convert you. Only Allah (God) has the ability to guide you, not me. I can only offer you the Truth.

The topic here is just to comprehend and reflect on the (logical) reasons that makes you repudiate Islam. That way, we can see if your reasons are based on misconceptions, allegations or any other claims that truly are baseless.

One reason is the slanderous uneducated belief that the Jews corrupted the Torah. I am waiting for you to prove this to me without a doubt.

Unfortunaley morrissey, you've missed the essence of my previous reply which expounded (not detailed) the reasons of this corruption. Perhaps, you should re-read it since I'm not in a position to repeat myself.

It's so funny, you use a christian missionary to support your claims. A christian missionary supports the claims that there is a human deity. How can you trust any utterence out of his mouth, if he is capable of uttering nonsense about his deity?

I find that a weak attempt to reject someone's scholarship based on his beliefs (logical fallacy). There is a clear difference between attackin' his argument (based on credible evidence) and attackin' his beliefs and thus reject his credible claim. This famous Christian scholar who detests Islam cannot ignore the very fact that it's the only Pure preserved Text in the modern world today. If he really was biased, as you assert, he wouldn't have praised the Qur'an but instead attacked it like some of the previous Christian orientalists did. Instead, he acknowledged the status of the Qu'ran as the most authentic Scripture in the light of evidence. Can that be claimed the same for the Torah? No.

the TaNaKh, on the other hand is a different matter. And the most important document that has remained unchanged is the Torah, as the christians refer to as the first 5 books. Everything else has to align with this Torah. You could make up a fiction novel, and as long as it does not add or subtract from the Torah, ie contradict the Torah, it is a fine source. The book of Job is possibly a work of fiction, but to the Jews that is irrelevant. It does not contradict the Torah, so it is fine.

Your Quran on the other hand does contradict the Torah, so it cannot be added on. It asks the Jews to break the very laws that G-d gave them Himself, without even having to use the voice of a prophet. He used His own voice. The Torah observant Jew is not going to disobey G-d for anyone, no matter how many miracles he can perform, and how many signs and wonders he brings. They know it is a test, and tests werent meant to be easy.

Notice how you didn't answer any of my points but instead used incorrect reasonings.

And it's also the first argument in the '100 Hundred Proofs Of Islamic False Hood':

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1) ARGUMENT FROM DISAGREEMENT[/font]

1. [font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I believe that the Bible [in this case the Torah] is the word of God. [/font]
2. [font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Qur'ân disagrees with the Bible [or Torah]. [/font]
3. [font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Therefore, Islam is false.[/font]

http://www.islamicboard.com/showthread.php?t=1023

The question stands, dear morrissey, do you acknowledge the textual inconsistency in the Torah and the fact that textual realibility is very unsubstantial.
Peace

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Unfortunately Morrissey, I was hoping for a much more onjective response that your previous one. I found very little worthy of commenting on.

I dont need a 'path' to G-d. I have merely stopped turning my back to Him, He is with me, and I cannot escape Him. Why do I need a path to Him? I have never been separated. I only tried to kid myself that I was.

Why do you need a path to God?

Because lacking a path denies any purpose in life. What is the purpose of accepting the existence of God, without performing your duty on this planet? Do you really understand why you are here?

If we don't have a path, we have no direction, no goals. Life becomes an empty game of gain. A path ot God measures our connection with Him and brings us closer to Him.

What is the purpose in believing in the existence of your leader, when you don't follow him?!

You have to follow God's laws and perform your service as God's Viceroy on Earth.

Islam organizes your relations with God, with yourself, with your children, with your relatives, with your neighbor, with your guest, and with other brethren. Islam clearly establishes your duties and rights in all those relationships.

Islam establishes a clear system of worship, civil rights, laws of marriage and divorce, laws of inheritance, code of behavior, what not to drink, what to wear, and what not to wear, how to worship God, how to govern, the laws of war and peace, when to go to war, when to make peace, the law of economics, and the laws of buying and selling. Islam is a complete code of life.

Islam is not for the mosque only, it is for daily life, a guide to life in all its aspects: socially, economically, and politically.

Islam is complete constitution. Thus Islam keeps the Muslim away from confusion, because Islam is logical and rational. Allah is one. Islam is complete code of human life.

You expect me to do irrelevant things like make pilgrimages to Mecca,

Read what your own Holy Books say, first:
Psalms 84:5-6 Blessed are those whose strength is in you,who have set their hearts on pilgrimage.
As they pass through the Valley of Baca, they make it a place of springs; the autumn rains also cover it with pools.

And then read the Qur'an:
The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bacca (Another name for Makka): Full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings

So who are you to declare what God has ordained, as irrelevant? Do you have no fear about what you will say to your Lord on the Final Day?!

and agree with your slanderous comments towards the Jews, in regards to their precious Torah being corrupted

The greatest slander is to corrupt the word of God with lies against God and the Prophets of God. The Torah has attributed to the Messengers of God, the most heinious sins!

Though it has not incited you to murder, it has incited others in the name of your 'path', to murder innocents.

Common logical fallacy. Go back a few posts where I refuted this.

That is Lashon HaRa. It is like a cancer that eats up what is healthy.

you know what is cancer? To praise what God has cursed. To uphold that which you have no knowledge about. It really seems to me that you have not even read the Torah. Have you read the Tanakh in its entirety?

Anyone who your religion states is evil or corrupt merely because they reject your prophet.

Its not just my Prophet, but God's Final Messenger. I would consider thhose who reject God's Messenger as those who reject God. And rejecting God is both evil and corrupt.

 

[morrissey]

I dont see what is wrong with this:

I believe that the Bible [in this case the Torah] is the word of God.
The Qur'ân disagrees with the Bible [or Torah].
Therefore, Islam is false.

You have to prove to me otherwise.

So far,you offer people's opinions on the subject.

I want cold, hard, evidence.

This is what you believe:

1: The Torah (ie, the Word of G-d) has been corrupted by the Jews
2: One man, Mohammed re-received the original Torah, which he called the Quran
3: The Jews are illegitimate now

Show me you are not basing your opinions on prejudice. Because at the moment I sense you are doing your utmost to convince yourself that the Jews are the 'bad guys' so you can legitimise your religion. You have not proven the corruption of the Torah with real evidence. You hope you are correct in your assumptions, so you list the opinions of others, who hold the same assumptions.

Lay it on the table, give me no doubt in my mind.....

What is the undeniable tangible evidence that causes your belief in the corruption of the Torah by the Jews to be merely a side-effect.

At the moment you simply want to believe the Torah is corrupt. You do not actually know, because if you knew, you could easily make it known to me.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

I dont see what is wrong with this:

:lol: Well then... I suppose not everyone can recognize the logical fallacy there.

Do you not see that you are judging the validity of Islam based upon your irrelevant beliefs? No matter what someone believes it cannot change the validity of a point.

If I believe the sky is green, can I asses material in view of my flawed perception?

 

[morrissey]

The discussion is clearly getting no where now.

Who cares why I reject Islam, I could be christian, hindu, spongebob squarepants.....

My reasons and beliefs should be irrelevant to your ability to prove to me without a doubt that your path is correct.

You are getting frustrated now, because you cannot convince me with mere emotion and presumptions.

I already believe you are a Noachide. But you are a Noachide who commits unfounded Lashon HaRa against the entire Jewish people.

Just show me the Lashon HaRa is not unfounded. That is all I ask.

 

[morrissey]

Is this or is this not what you believe?


1: The Torah (ie, the Word of G-d) has been corrupted by the Jews
2: One man, Mohammed re-received the original Torah, which he called the Quran
3: The Jews are illegitimate now


Prove point 1, with cold hard evidence, and I might start listening to you about points 2 and 3....

 

[morrissey]

asking me to believe without cold hard evidence is the same as asking me to have blind faith.

If blind faith is the primary requirement of having a religious belief, I might as well have stayed a christian.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Who cares why I reject Islam

No one forced you to post in this thread. But shouldn't you have a reason?

My reasons and beliefs should be irrelevant to your ability to prove to me without a doubt that your path is correct.

True, but it is helpful to clear up people's misconceptions before teaching them the essentials.

Prove point 1, with cold hard evidence, and I might start listening to you about points 2 and 3....

This will continue in the appropriate thread.

 

[morrissey]

Ansar, you told me the answer to a question i asked on J4J was in this thread, and in order to view it I had to become a member here.

You invited me here, I am answering your question "Why do you reject Islam"

I have therefore responded, and shared with you that I reject it for many reasons:

But foremost:

1: It is unnecessary to my life

and

2: You make a slanderous claim against a nation of people, which could be interpretted as racist.

You are correct, point 2 is being discussed in another thread.

 

[kadafi]

The discussion is clearly getting no where now.

Who cares why I reject Islam, I could be christian, hindu, spongebob squarepants.....

My reasons and beliefs should be irrelevant to your ability to prove to me without a doubt that your path is correct.

You are getting frustrated now, because you cannot convince me with mere emotion and presumptions.

I already believe you are a Noachide. But you are a Noachide who commits unfounded Lashon HaRa against the entire Jewish people.

Just show me the Lashon HaRa is not unfounded. That is all I ask.

Dear morrissey, the reason why the discussion is takin' circle turns is due the fact that you not seem to concede the evidence that the today's Torah, (which you allegedly claim that it's still the Word of God), has been tampered.

The very fact that you seem to attributin' impertinent points to the discussion (i.e. me getting frustrated which is a cheap tactic to digress from the subject) obviously demonstrates that you really not want to discuss textual criticism concernin' the Torah. And then you persist on claimin' that it's still the Word of God while the evidence states the contrary.

1: The Torah (ie, the Word of G-d) has been corrupted by the Jews
2: One man, Mohammed re-received the original Torah, which he called the Quran
3: The Jews are illegitimate now


Prove point 1, with cold hard evidence, and I might start listening to you about points 2 and 3....

Not exactly, Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) did not re-receive the Original Torah but he received the Final Revelation that also contained what was beneficial in the original Scriptures (i.e. Taurat, Injeel, etc).

Allah (Exalted is He) said in Aal 'Imraan, verse 3, interpretation of the meaning:
“It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Qur’aan) to you (Muhammad) with truth, confirming what came before it

And in al-Maa’idah , verse 48:
“And We have sent down to you (O Muhammad) the Book (this Qur’aan) in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it and Mohaymin (trustworthy in highness and a witness) over it (old Scriptures). So judge among them by what Allaah has revealed

So whatever good there was in the previous Scriptures is is to be found in the Glorious Qur'an.

The Torah contains textual inconsistency; the Variations in the Divine Names in Genesis; the Secondary Variations in Diction and Style; the parallel or Duplicate Accounts (Doublets); the Continuity of the Various Sources; and the political assumptions implicit in the text.

And the most compellin' fact that there is no such thing as the "original Torah" present day just like there is no such thing as the "Original Injeel" in the present day. You're also lackin' physical evidence such as credible manuscripts. Can the same be argued for the Qur'an? No.

In fact, when you compare the readings of the Masoretic Text and the Dead Sea Scrolls, it reveals a large difference and problems of textual reliability. And I'll be willin' to discuss that.

 

[morrissey]

Dear morrissey, the reason why the discussion is takin' circle turns is due the fact that you not seem to concede the evidence that the today's Torah, (which you allegedly claim that it's still the Word of God), has been tampered.

The very fact that you seem to attributin' impertinent points to the discussion (i.e. me getting frustrated which is a cheap tactic to digress from the subject) obviously demonstrates that you really not want to discuss textual criticism concernin' the Torah. And then you persist on claimin' that it's still the Word of God while the evidence states the contrary.


Not exactly, Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) did not re-receive the Original Torah but he received the Final Revelation that also contained what was beneficial in the original Scriptures (i.e. Taurat, Injeel, etc).

Allah (Exalted is He) said in Aal 'Imraan, verse 3, interpretation of the meaning:
“It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Qur’aan) to you (Muhammad) with truth, confirming what came before it

And in al-Maa’idah , verse 48:
“And We have sent down to you (O Muhammad) the Book (this Qur’aan) in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it and Mohaymin (trustworthy in highness and a witness) over it (old Scriptures). So judge among them by what Allaah has revealed

So whatever good there was in the previous Scriptures is is to be found in the Glorious Qur'an.

The Torah contains textual inconsistency; the Variations in the Divine Names in Genesis; the Secondary Variations in Diction and Style; the parallel or Duplicate Accounts (Doublets); the Continuity of the Various Sources; and the political assumptions implicit in the text.

And the most compellin' fact that there is no such thing as the "original Torah" present day just like there is no such thing as the "Original Injeel" in the present day. You're also lackin' physical evidence such as credible manuscripts. Can the same be argued for the Qur'an? No.

In fact, when you compare the readings of the Masoretic Text and the Dead Sea Scrolls, it reveals a large difference and problems of textual reliability. And I'll be willin' to discuss that.

People accuse the Quran to have the same inconsistencies as you are accusing of the Jewish Torah.

And when you say Torah, are you refering to the Torah or the TaNaKh?

About the people who criticise the Quran, you claim the same things that I claim about people who criticise the Torah.

Unless you can lay it out on the table, I aint buyin.

I am not trying to sell the Torah to you. But you are trying to sell the Quran to me. I have no reason to trust it. For all I know Mohammed could have copied stories that the Jews told - apparently he had contact with Jews in Medina. We cant know for sure. Maybe he just misinterpreted the meaning of 'Chosen' when it came to the Jewish people. Not realising they were 'chosen' for the hard graft, whilst we, the non-Jews get the easy life. Maybe he thought it wasnt fair, and thought he'd do something about it. I dont know. The Jews are always forthcoming about their human weaknesses. Even Moshe didnt make it into the Promised Land because he disobeyed G-d. Did Mohammed ever show human weakness?


I need to know things without a doubt. While ever 'what if's' and 'could have's' ring around in my head, I will not buy into it. When being brought up in a christian home, I was told never to question and ask what if's and could have's, as it was the devil trying to lie to me, and I just had to believe, and not be a doubting Thomas.

I am not going to go backwards.

I left blind faith, just accepting tales as true to get out of h*ll.

I have found my home where I can ask 'what if' and 'could have' and 'maybe' (like i just asked a maybe about your prophet Mohammed, above), and I will not go to hell for it. I have discovered that the truth is not afraid of my questions. The truth embraces my questions.

I am begining to find my experience on this forum here might becoming to an end. Nothing has come into fruition, I still am riddled with doubts about Islam. I am sorry. It is nothing against any of you all.

I have been offended on occasions, and I wish people werent so anti-Jewish. It is soooo 1942, so very outdated. Why cant people just get along?

The view you guys hold of the Jews just fits into the pattern that has been the view of Jews since they left Egypt. You are offering nothing new, with your anti-Jewish views. If anything, they couldnt expect anything different.

They have survived to this day. Empires have fallen and the Jews remain, despite the most vile persecution and dispersion from their motherland. No other nation can stake this claim. It is truly miraculous....