Why do you reject Islam

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morrissey said:
People accuse the Quran to have the same inconsistencies as you are accusing of the Jewish Torah.
I'm not accusin' anything. To me, accussin' connotes to accusin with out any credible evidence which automatically leads you to discreditin' yourself.

What I've brought forth is not a accusation but rather a criticism (based on evidence) that the Torah is corrupted (i.e. mutli-autorship, inconsistencies, etc)

Those who criticize the Qur'an are those who provide no evidence for such claim. Like I previously stated, the authenticity of the Qur'an is based on indisputable evidence. And I could care less what kinda allegation these polemics charge against the Qur'an, as long as they do not contain any evidence for their ludicrous claim, I would not even examine it.

And when you say Torah, are you refering to the Torah or the TaNaKh?
Written Torah = TaNaKh



About the people who criticise the Quran, you claim the same things that I claim about people who criticise the Torah.
Can you please stick to the topic, I rather do not wish to engage in futile discussions. All you seem to state are red herrings.

Unless you can lay it out on the table, I aint buyin.
You have re-iterated this statement atleast 3 times but yet you will not be bothered to examine the evidence that reveal the corruption of the Torah. Not fair-minded at all. Plain in-denial. Pity though since I really had the assumption that all your reasons for not acceptin' Islam were sensible and logical.

I am not trying to sell the Torah to you. But you are trying to sell the Quran to me. I have no reason to trust it. For all I know Mohammed could have copied stories that the Jews told - apparently he had contact with Jews in Medina. We cant know for sure. Maybe he just misinterpreted the meaning of 'Chosen' when it came to the Jewish people. Not realising they were 'chosen' for the hard graft, whilst we, the non-Jews get the easy life. Maybe he thought it wasnt fair, and thought he'd do something about it. I dont know. The Jews are always forthcoming about their human weaknesses. Even Moshe didnt make it into the Promised Land because he disobeyed G-d. Did Mohammed ever show human weakness?
Conjecture upon conjecture. First, there were no Christian and Jewish sources in Mecca. The Arabic gospel appeared hundreds of years later after the advent of Islam.

The IA team writes:
Thus the first translations of the Hebrew Bible in Arabic appeared after the advent of Islam. In fact, the oldest dated manuscript of the Old Testament in Arabic as shown below dates from first half of the ninth century.

OTarabic-1.gif


The Oldest Arabic Manuscript of the Old Testament (British Museum arab. 1475 [Add. 26116]).

The variety of Arabic versions of Job, of which a page of the oldest is shown here, is representative of Arabic versions of the Bible as a whole.

There are at least four different versions of Job, one of which is among the earliest documents of Christian Arabic literature. The manuscript Brit. Mus. arab. 1475, which contains extensive portions of it, was written in the first half of the ninth century, probably at the monastery of St. Sabas. The version itself is from a Syro-Hexaplar base. The author of another version of Job is known: Pethion (Fatyun ibn Aiyub), who was active as a translator in Baghdad probably about the middle of the ninth century; he is also credited with translations of Sirach and the Prophets. Pethion's text of Job is divided into fifteen chapters and (according to the London manuscript) claims to be translated from the Hebrew; actually the translator worked from a Syriac exemplar. Other versions of Job go back to the Pe****ta and to the Coptic (G. Graf 1944: 126).
[16]

The IA team answers every allegation at:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/Bibindex.html

Also, it's worthy to mention that Prophet Muhammad (Peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was illiterate.

It's quite amusin' that you make alot of presumptions morrissey, while you simultaneously claim that you've found the Truth.

As Allah (Exalted is He) said in Surah Al-Baqara, verse 11:

And they say: "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say: "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."

A proof that you still haven't produced morrissey.

I need to know things without a doubt. While ever 'what if's' and 'could have's' ring around in my head, I will not buy into it. When being brought up in a christian home, I was told never to question and ask what if's and could have's, as it was the devil trying to lie to me, and I just had to believe, and not be a doubting Thomas.
Islam is a religion of proofs, there is no blind faith. A good article to read is:
Islam: The Religion of Proofs

Many people follow their religions blindly without proof under the justification that they “have faith.” Having faith in ideologies, belief systems, or religions that are not based upon clear proof is a source of falsehood and submission unto the conjectures and whims of men. Islam is based upon proofs. In fact, throughout the Noble Qur’an, Allah directly addresses man’s reason, and discusses the ayaat(proofs, evidences) that would lead man to accept Islam as the religion of truth for all of mankind.


More at http://clearproof.faithweb.com/cgi-bin/framed/2672/book.htm



I am begining to find my experience on this forum here might becoming to an end. Nothing has come into fruition, I still am riddled with doubts about Islam. I am sorry. It is nothing against any of you all.
Then address these doubts based on proofs. Perhaps we can look at it. If you do not want to address them, then that is your choice which I fully respect, however, do not regard that these [doubts] are based on factual evidence.

I have been offended on occasions, and I wish people werent so anti-Jewish. It is soooo 1942, so very outdated. Why cant people just get along?
If those racism-quotes-in -the-Talmud allegation quotes offended you, then wouldn't you agree that you offended Islam by posting an anti-islamic fabrication?

Now you have addressed these quotes and I wouldn't let them get to your head. If someone levels a charge against any Judaism, then it's your job to refute it. If you cannot refute it, then you've to acknowledge it which you fail to demonstrate. Several points have been left unanswered regardin' the Torah which is disappointin'.

The view you guys hold of the Jews just fits into the pattern that has been the view of Jews since they left Egypt. You are offering nothing new, with your anti-Jewish views. If anything, they couldnt expect anything different.
With you guys, I presume that you mean with Muslims? Since when was anti-semitism potrayed in my posts? Can you provide evidence that Islam teaches anti-semitism? I think this really ridicilous to make such bold accusations. It's safe to say that I really haven't gained any perspective in this discussions apart from accusations and insults that my posts contains traits of anti-semitism.

Surah al-Baqarah, verse 120,
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah.

Peace
 
I hope Morrissey sincerely thinks about what Br. Kadafi has just written, and reads it carefully.

:w:
 
I'm not accusin' anything. To me, accussin' connotes to accusin with out any credible evidence which automatically leads you to discreditin' yourself.

What I've brought forth is not a accusation but rather a criticism (based on evidence) that the Torah is corrupted (i.e. mutli-autorship, inconsistencies, etc)

Those who criticize the Qur'an are those who provide no evidence for such claim. Like I previously stated, the authenticity of the Qur'an is based on indisputable evidence. And I could care less what kinda allegation these polemics charge against the Qur'an, as long as they do not contain any evidence for their ludicrous claim, I would not even examine it.

You are only providing allegations against the Torah, and no actual evidence. If I'd seen evidence, I would be satisfied. Obviously I am not satisfied...I can like wise say, You are criticising the Torah and providing no evidence for this claim. As long as I can found counter arguments, your 'claims' remain hot air, and simply wishful thinking on your part.

Written Torah = TaNaKh

Okie dokie....this shows your lack of knowledge of Judaism.

The Torah is the first 5 books of the TaNaKh.....And you are professing to have knowledge on the subject? Gee, you dont even understand what the Torah is in the first place.



Can you please stick to the topic, I rather do not wish to engage in futile discussions. All you seem to state are red herrings.

I only get red herrings from you. nothing tangible, nothing ground-breaking, earth-shattering or world-changing. If you had evidence, as you suggest, surely no-one would be Jewish anymore, because they have no other choice but to accept the cold hard evidence. You dont have evidence. I can imagine 'what if's and 'could have's' which conflict. Yu need to leave my mind without the ability to find any doubts.

Please give proof that can cause me to not need to ask 'what if'?

You have re-iterated this statement atleast 3 times but yet you will not be bothered to examine the evidence that reveal the corruption of the Torah. Not fair-minded at all. Plain in-denial. Pity though since I really had the assumption that all your reasons for not acceptin' Islam were sensible and logical.

You have not shown me any corruption in the Torah. I need to see it, in Hebrew, so not to lose meaning in translation. You are using translations. do you want me to judge the meanings in the Quran using the english language? Surely not. Why do you expect me to judge meanings in the Torah using the english language? (or arabic, chinese, french, or any other language foreign to the language that every Sefer Torah scroll is written in in every Orthodox Synagogue on the face of the globe.

Conjecture upon conjecture. First, there were no Christian and Jewish sources in Mecca. The Arabic gospel appeared hundreds of years later after the advent of Islam.

The IA team writes:
Thus the first translations of the Hebrew Bible in Arabic appeared after the advent of Islam. In fact, the oldest dated manuscript of the Old Testament in Arabic as shown below dates from first half of the ninth century.

OTarabic-1.gif


The Oldest Arabic Manuscript of the Old Testament (British Museum arab. 1475 [Add. 26116]).

The variety of Arabic versions of Job, of which a page of the oldest is shown here, is representative of Arabic versions of the Bible as a whole.

There are at least four different versions of Job, one of which is among the earliest documents of Christian Arabic literature. The manuscript Brit. Mus. arab. 1475, which contains extensive portions of it, was written in the first half of the ninth century, probably at the monastery of St. Sabas. The version itself is from a Syro-Hexaplar base. The author of another version of Job is known: Pethion (Fatyun ibn Aiyub), who was active as a translator in Baghdad probably about the middle of the ninth century; he is also credited with translations of Sirach and the Prophets. Pethion's text of Job is divided into fifteen chapters and (according to the London manuscript) claims to be translated from the Hebrew; actually the translator worked from a Syriac exemplar. Other versions of Job go back to the Pe****ta and to the Coptic (G. Graf 1944: 126).
[16]

The IA team answers every allegation at:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/Bibindex.html

Also, it's worthy to mention that Prophet Muhammad (Peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was illiterate.


You are still leaving me with questions...I could make (probably false, but to be the devils advocate, lets say it) an assumption that, you never know, he could have heard the Jewish storys, and had others transcribe them for him. Surely he wasnt deaf? Are you trying to tell me that Mohammed never met a Jew or christian in his life, before he revealled the Quran to the people of his town? This is a possibility, as you can never be sure who's met who in their life, and using their testimony is useless, as you have to use trust, yep, good old blind faith, to give them the benefit of the doubt and believe their words.

It's quite amusin' that you make alot of presumptions morrissey, while you simultaneously claim that you've found the Truth.

Presumptions are all you have about Judaism. You didnt even know what the Torah actually is, until I, a mere non-Jew, informed you.

As Allah (Exalted is He) said in Surah Al-Baqara, verse 11:

And they say: "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say: "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."


Ok, does this mean we ask you for proof, or we try to prove things to you?

Well, If we arent meant to ask for proof, then you are definately asking me to have blind faith. Blind faith is good for any religion, as this is what pagans use to legitimise their beliefs. are you asking me to have blind faith?

Or are you saying that Noachides, christains and Jews are always on a mission to prove something? I know christians are, but Jews and Noachides are most definately no. I already consider a person a Noachide if they keep the 7 laws. It is up to them, I dont have to have any imput into their lives.

It is a complete lie that Jews say you cannot enter paradise unless you are a Jew. If you did some Jewish research, you would find that, in fact, the Jew believes that a Righteous Gentile can reach the lofty spiritual heights of the Kohen Godel, a height higher than any Jew can aspire to, who is not born as a Kohen!

From http://talmud.faithweb.com/articles/man.html:
Talmud Avodah Zarah 3a

Rabbi Meir would say: How do we know that even a gentile who engages in the study of Torah is like a Jewish high priest? We learn from the verse (Leviticus 18:5) "which man (HaAdam=the man) shall do [i.e. study] and by which he shall live [in the afterlife]."


A proof that you still haven't produced morrissey.


But I am not the one with something to prove. You are trying to prove to me that Islam is the right religion. I honestly dont care what you think about mine, it is your religion that is being 'sold' at the moment.

Islam is a religion of proofs, there is no blind faith. A good article to read is:
Islam: The Religion of Proofs

Many people follow their religions blindly without proof under the justification that they “have faith.” Having faith in ideologies, belief systems, or religions that are not based upon clear proof is a source of falsehood and submission unto the conjectures and whims of men. Islam is based upon proofs. In fact, throughout the Noble Qur’an, Allah directly addresses man’s reason, and discusses the ayaat(proofs, evidences) that would lead man to accept Islam as the religion of truth for all of mankind.


More at http://clearproof.faithweb.com/cgi-bin/framed/2672/book.htm

Well, I dont expect you to have blind faith, because being a Noachide is something that can only be proven to oneself, by oneself. There is not one Noachide who has been converted to this state by a Jew, that I am aware of, and because we are a small (but growing) population, I know alot of Noachides, and they would happily verify my claim about this. The Jew might give us guidance, but only after we have requested it from them.

You really dont have any concept of what it is to be a Noachide, and that has been proven with the likes of Ansar saying bizarre, unfounded presumptious statements like this, only a couple of weeks after finding out such a thing as a Noachide actually exists:

Currently, as a Noahide, you are following an empty set of laws without any spirit behind them. You have no form of Ibadah (worship), no comprehensive system that addresses political, social, environmental, physical, mental, spiritual spheres of life. No Holy Book to speak to you God's words and guidance. No traditions of a Prophet to extend to you the warmth of truth.

What a joke, I've never laughed so hard in my life at someones unashamed ignorance on a suject ;D


Then address these doubts based on proofs. Perhaps we can look at it. If you do not want to address them, then that is your choice which I fully respect, however, do not regard that these [doubts] are based on factual evidence.

If those racism-quotes-in -the-Talmud allegation quotes offended you, then wouldn't you agree that you offended Islam by posting an anti-islamic fabrication?

This was the entire point I was making when I posted them. I was posting them for arguments sake, you know, playing devils advocate. I never once suggested that I beleived they were real or professed I understood them. I merely asked questions in regards to them, do you not remember?

I was turning the tables. You give me an anti-Jewish interpretation of Jewish writings, and I can equally give you anti-Islamic interpretations of Muslim writings. It works both ways you know.


Now you have addressed these quotes and I wouldn't let them get to your head. If someone levels a charge against any Judaism, then it's your job to refute it. If you cannot refute it, then you've to acknowledge it which you fail to demonstrate. Several points have been left unanswered regardin' the Torah which is disappointin'.

You demonstrated that you didnt even understand what the Torah is, so how can I trust your interpretation of it? I never profess to interpret the Quran, why do you profess to interpret the Torah?

With you guys, I presume that you mean with Muslims? Since when was anti-semitism potrayed in my posts? Can you provide evidence that Islam teaches anti-semitism? I think this really ridicilous to make such bold accusations. It's safe to say that I really haven't gained any perspective in this discussions apart from accusations and insults that my posts contains traits of anti-semitism.

I have told you in another post, I wasnt accusing you personally. But a couple of people have - do you wish me to name names and quote quotes?


Surah al-Baqarah, verse 120,
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah.


Wow, this shows that whoever wrote this was oblivious to Judaism. I could say it's correct about christians, as they are proud to missionize and declare people d*mned to eternal h*llfire, but the accusation that Jews want you to follow their religion is hilarious....do you know how difficult it is to convert to Judaism? They reject you a minimum of 3 times, because they believe being a Righteous Gentile is the legitimate path for the non-Jew. Already you have shown that you keep the 7 Laws, therefore the Jews have no issue with you. Except,obviously, when you set about trying to slander them and illegitimise them with your claims that they are corrupt.

Example of Jewish opinion on the non-Jew:

(from http://talmud.faithweb.com/articles/gentiles.html ):

Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Hilchot Teshuvah 3:4 based on Tosefta Sanhedrin 13:1; Talmud Sanhedrin 105a:

Righteous gentiles have a place in the world to come.

Jerusalem Talmud Peah 1:1:

It says (Job 37:23): "With justice and an abundance of kindness, He does not deal harshly." G-d does not withhold reward from gentiles who perform His commandments.

Midrash Bamidbar Rabbah 8:2:

(Psalms 146:8) "G-d loves the righteous." G-d said: 'I love those who love Me and so it says (1 Samuel 2:30) "For I honor those who honor Me." They love Me so I love them in return.' Why does G-d love the righteous? Because righteousness is not an inheritance or a family trait. You find that priests are from a priestly family and Levites are from a levitical family as it says (Psalms 135:19-20) "O house of Aaron bless G-d! O house of Levi bless G-d!" If someone wants to become a priest [from the family of Aaron] or a Levite he cannot because his father was not a priest or a Levite. However, if someone wants to become righteous even if he is a gentile he can because it is not a family trait as it says (ibid.) "O those who fear G-d bless G-d!" It does not say the house of those who fear G-d but those who fear G-d. It is not a family trait rather on their own they chose to fear and love G-d. Therefore, G-d loves them.

Midrash Sifra, Acharei Mot 9:13:

(Leviticus 18:5) "Which man shall carry out and by which he shall live." Rabbi Yirmiyah would say: We see from here that even a gentile who fulfills his laws is like a [Jewish] high priest. He would also say: (2 Samuel 7:19) "And that would be fitting for priests, Levites, and Israelites" is not what it says rather "and that would be fitting for great men - O Lord G-d." He would also say: (Isaiah 26:2) "Open the gates so the priests, Levites, and Israelites may enter" is not what it says rather "Open the gates so the righteous nation, keeper of the faith, may enter." He would also say: (Psalms 118:20) "This is the gate of G-d; priests, Levites, and Israelites" is not what it says rather "This is the gate of G-d; the righteous shall enter through it." He would also say: (Psalms 33:1) "Sing joyfully, O priests, Levites, and Israelites" is not what it says rather "Sing joyfully, O righteous, because of G-d." He would also say: (Psalms 125:4) "Do good, G-d, to the priests, Levites, and Israelites" is not what it says rather "Do good, G-d, to good people." We see from here that even a gentile who follows his commandments is [as righteous as the Jewish] high priest.

We dont take issue you with you at all. But you take issue with the Jewish nation, and that is something that does not exist within Judaism, towards other monotheistic religions. They view all ethical monotheists as having a place in the world to come, but I have gathered thus far, that you do not.

In my current position, as rejecting the Prophet Mohammed, but still embracing the One Creator of the Universe, as not being able to achieve your 'paradise'?
 
btw, I have noticed spelling errors in my post, and i apologise, but I type as fast as possible because I also have to look after my kids ;-) ... errors are an unfortunate side-effect.
 
Why do you need a path to God?

Because lacking a path denies any purpose in life. What is the purpose of accepting the existence of God, without performing your duty on this planet? Do you really understand why you are here
?

This debate has been quite complex. This said, I have read it in full and still disagree with your "Theory" of why we are here.
 
morrissey said:
You are only providing allegations against the Torah, and no actual evidence. If I'd seen evidence, I would be satisfied. Obviously I am not satisfied...I can like wise say, You are criticising the Torah and providing no evidence for this claim. As long as I can found counter arguments, your 'claims' remain hot air, and simply wishful thinking on your part.
Gee, you really are taking the term in-denial to a new level.

There is a certain extent where I get exasperated if the other side does not want to keep the discussion rational (i.e. affirmin' the evidence and sensible arguments).

Morrissey, how far are you acquainted with the Torah? Its history, its reliability. From what I've witnessed, the Variations in the Divine Names in Genesis; the Secondary Variations in Diction and Style; the parallel or Duplicate Accounts (Doublets); the Continuity of the Various Sources; and the political assumptions implicit in the text terms do not even a ring a bell. This leads to me conclude that you either haven't grasped the history of the Torah and the evidences of multi-authorship or you do not want to acknowledge it since it contradicts your notion that the Torah is inerrant.

I'm going to quote ONE evidence of the 'doublets' argument. I'm not going to touch the rest of the inconsistencies (diction & style, political assumptions etc.)

After this, the trend became to explain any and all discrepancies
through abstractism and elaborate interpretations, or through the
introduction of additional narrative details that did not appear in the
biblical text. Around this time, a startling new discovery was made.
It was noticed that the stories in the five books of Moses were made
up of doublets. A doublet is a case of one story being told twice.
Even in the English translation of the Bible, the doublets are
noticeable. These doublets have been masterfully intertwined so that
they become one narrative.

For example, there are doublets of the creation of the world, the
covenant between God and Abraham, the naming of Isaac, Abraham's
claim that his wife Sarah was his sister, the story of Jacob's journey to
Mesopotamia, Jacob's revelation at Beth-El,.......and on and on. In
many cases these doublets actually contradict one another. The
apologists once again jumped up with an explanation in hand. They
claimed that the doublets were complementary and not contradictive.
It was claimed that they came to teach us a lesson by their "apparent"
contradiction. However, this claim did not hold water for long. The
reason is that not long after, it was discovered that when the doublets
were separated into two separate accounts, each account was almost
always consistent about the name of the deity that it used. One would
always refer to God as Yahweh/Jehovah. This document was called
"J". The other always referred to Him as Elohim(God). It was called
"E". There were various other literary characteristics which were
then found to be common to one group or the other. It became
obvious that someone had taken two separate accounts of the ministry
of Moses (pbuh), cut them up, and then woven them together quite
masterfully so that their actions would not be discovered until
countless centuries later.

Once this startling discovery was made, the Old Testament was once
again placed under the scrutiny of scholars and it was discovered that
the Pentateuch was not made up of two major source documents but
FOUR. It was discovered that some stories were not only doublets,
but triplets. Additional literary characteristics were identified for
these documents. The third source was called P (for Priestly), and the
fourth D (for Deuteronomy). In the end it was concluded that the
first four "books of Moses" were the result of the merging of three
separate accounts which were called J, E, and P, and the book of
Deuteronomy was found to be a separate account which was called
D. The person (or persons) who collected and intertwined these
sources was called "The Redactor". Let us have a look at an example
of these doublets from Genesis 6:5 to 8:22. The Jehovah(J) text is in
regular type, THE PRIESTLY(P) IN CAPITALS:

Genesis 6:
-------------
Genesis 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in
the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was
only evil continually.
Genesis 6:6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the
earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Genesis 6:7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have
created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the
creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have
made them.
Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.
Genesis 6:9 THESE ARE THE GENERATIONS OF NOAH:
NOAH WAS A JUST MAN AND PERFECT IN HIS
GENERATIONS, AND NOAH WALKED WITH GOD.
Genesis 6:10 AND NOAH BEGAT THREE SONS, SHEM, HAM,
AND JAPHETH.
Genesis 6:11 THE EARTH ALSO WAS CORRUPT BEFORE
GOD, AND THE EARTH WAS FILLED WITH VIOLENCE.
Genesis 6:12 AND GOD LOOKED UPON THE EARTH, AND,
BEHOLD, IT WAS CORRUPT; FOR ALL FLESH HAD
CORRUPTED HIS WAY UPON THE EARTH.
Genesis 6:13 AND GOD SAID UNTO NOAH, THE END OF ALL
FLESH IS COME BEFORE ME; FOR THE EARTH IS FILLED
WITH VIOLENCE THROUGH THEM; AND, BEHOLD, I WILL
DESTROY THEM WITH THE EARTH.
Genesis 6:14 MAKE THEE AN ARK OF GOPHER WOOD;
ROOMS SHALT THOU MAKE IN THE ARK, AND SHALT
PITCH IT WITHIN AND WITHOUT WITH PITCH.
Genesis 6:15 AND THIS IS THE FASHION WHICH THOU
SHALT MAKE IT OF: THE LENGTH OF THE ARK SHALL BE
THREE HUNDRED CUBITS, THE BREADTH OF IT FIFTY
CUBITS, AND THE HEIGHT OF IT THIRTY CUBITS.
Genesis 6:16 A WINDOW SHALT THOU MAKE TO THE ARK,
AND IN A CUBIT SHALT THOU FINISH IT ABOVE; AND THE
DOOR OF THE ARK SHALT THOU SET IN THE SIDE
THEREOF; WITH LOWER, SECOND, AND THIRD STORIES
SHALT THOU MAKE IT.
Genesis 6:17 AND, BEHOLD, I, EVEN I, DO BRING A FLOOD
OF WATERS UPON THE EARTH, TO DESTROY ALL FLESH,
WHEREIN IS THE BREATH OF LIFE, FROM UNDER HEAVEN;
AND EVERY THING THAT IS IN THE EARTH SHALL DIE.
Genesis 6:18 BUT WITH THEE WILL I ESTABLISH MY
COVENANT; AND THOU SHALT COME INTO THE ARK,
THOU, AND THY SONS, AND THY WIFE, AND THY SONS'
WIVES WITH THEE.
Genesis 6:19 AND OF EVERY LIVING THING OF ALL FLESH,
TWO OF EVERY SORT SHALT THOU BRING INTO THE ARK,
TO KEEP THEM ALIVE WITH THEE; THEY SHALL BE MALE
AND FEMALE.
Genesis 6:20 OF FOWLS AFTER THEIR KIND, AND OF
CATTLE AFTER THEIR KIND, OF EVERY CREEPING THING
OF THE EARTH AFTER HIS KIND, TWO OF EVERY SORT
SHALL COME UNTO THEE, TO KEEP THEM ALIVE.
Genesis 6:21 AND TAKE THOU UNTO THEE OF ALL FOOD
THAT IS EATEN, AND THOU SHALT GATHER IT TO THEE;
AND IT SHALL BE FOR FOOD FOR THEE, AND FOR THEM.
Genesis 6:22 THUS DID NOAH; ACCORDING TO ALL THAT
GOD COMMANDED HIM, SO DID HE.

Genesis 7:
-------------
Genesis 7:1 And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy
house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this
generation.
Genesis 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens,
the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the
male and his female.
Genesis 7:3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the
female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.
Genesis 7:4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the
earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I
have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
Genesis 7:5 And Noah did according unto all that the Lord
commanded him.
Genesis 7:6 AND NOAH WAS SIX HUNDRED YEARS OLD
WHEN THE FLOOD OF WATERS WAS UPON THE EARTH.
Genesis 7:7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his
sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.
Genesis 7:8 OF CLEAN BEASTS, AND OF BEASTS THAT ARE
NOT CLEAN, AND OF FOWLS, AND OF EVERY THING THAT
CREEPETH UPON THE EARTH,
Genesis 7:9 THERE WENT IN TWO AND TWO UNTO NOAH
INTO THE ARK, THE MALE AND THE FEMALE, AS GOD
HAD COMMANDED NOAH.
Genesis 7:10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of
the flood were upon the earth.
Genesis 7:11 IN THE SIX HUNDREDTH YEAR OF NOAH'S
LIFE, IN THE SECOND MONTH, THE SEVENTEENTH DAY OF
THE MONTH, THE SAME DAY WERE ALL THE FOUNTAINS
OF THE GREAT DEEP BROKEN UP, AND THE WINDOWS OF
HEAVEN WERE OPENED.
Genesis 7:12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty
nights.
Genesis 7:13 IN THE SELFSAME DAY ENTERED NOAH, AND
SHEM, AND HAM, AND JAPHETH, THE SONS OF NOAH, AND
NOAH'S WIFE, AND THE THREE WIVES OF HIS SONS WITH
THEM, INTO THE ARK;
Genesis 7:14 THEY, AND EVERY BEAST AFTER HIS KIND,
AND ALL THE CATTLE AFTER THEIR KIND, AND EVERY
CREEPING THING THAT CREEPETH UPON THE EARTH
AFTER HIS KIND, AND EVERY FOWL AFTER HIS KIND,
EVERY BIRD OF EVERY SORT.
Genesis 7:15 AND THEY WENT IN UNTO NOAH INTO THE
ARK, TWO AND TWO OF ALL FLESH, WHEREIN IS THE
BREATH OF LIFE.
Genesis 7:16 AND THEY THAT WENT IN, WENT IN MALE
AND FEMALE OF ALL FLESH, AS GOD HAD COMMANDED
HIM: and the Lord shut him in.
Genesis 7:17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the
waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the
earth.
Genesis 7:18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly
upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
Genesis 7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth;
and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were
covered.
Genesis 7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the
mountains were covered.
Genesis 7:21 AND ALL FLESH DIED THAT MOVED UPON
THE EARTH, BOTH OF FOWL, AND OF CATTLE, AND OF
BEAST, AND OF EVERY CREEPING THING THAT CREEPETH
UPON THE EARTH, AND EVERY MAN:
Genesis 7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that
was in the dry land, died.
Genesis 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was
upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping
things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the
earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in
the ark.
Genesis 7:24 AND THE WATERS PREVAILED UPON THE
EARTH AN HUNDRED AND FIFTY DAYS.


Genesis 8:
-------------
Genesis 8:1 AND GOD REMEMBERED NOAH, AND EVERY
LIVING THING, AND ALL THE CATTLE THAT WAS WITH
HIM IN THE ARK: AND GOD MADE A WIND TO PASS OVER
THE EARTH, AND THE WATERS ASSWAGED;
Genesis 8:2 THE FOUNTAINS ALSO OF THE DEEP AND THE
WINDOWS OF HEAVEN WERE STOPPED, and the rain from
heaven was restrained;
Genesis 8:3 And the waters returned from off the earth continually:
AND AFTER THE END OF THE HUNDRED AND FIFTY DAYS
THE WATERS WERE ABATED.
Genesis 8:4 AND THE ARK RESTED IN THE SEVENTH
MONTH, ON THE SEVENTEENTH DAY OF THE MONTH,
UPON THE MOUNTAINS OF ARARAT.
Genesis 8:5 AND THE WATERS DECREASED CONTINUALLY
UNTIL THE TENTH MONTH: IN THE TENTH MONTH, ON
THE FIRST DAY OF THE MONTH, WERE THE TOPS OF THE
MOUNTAINS SEEN.
Genesis 8:6 And it came to pass at the end of forty days, that Noah
opened the window of the ark which he had made:
Genesis 8:7 AND HE SENT FORTH A RAVEN, WHICH WENT
FORTH TO AND FRO, UNTIL THE WATERS WERE DRIED UP
FROM OFF THE EARTH.
Genesis 8:8 Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters
were abated from off the face of the ground;
Genesis 8:9 But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and
she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of
the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled
her in unto him into the ark.
Genesis 8:10 And he stayed yet other seven days; and again he sent
forth the dove out of the ark;
Genesis 8:11 And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in
her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters
were abated from off the earth.
Genesis 8:12 And he stayed yet other seven days; and sent forth the
dove; which returned not again unto him any more.
Genesis 8:13 AND IT CAME TO PASS IN THE SIX
HUNDREDTH AND FIRST YEAR, IN THE FIRST MONTH, THE
FIRST DAY OF THE MONTH, THE WATERS WERE DRIED UP
FROM OFF THE EARTH: and Noah removed the covering of the
ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry.
Genesis 8:14 AND IN THE SECOND MONTH, ON THE SEVEN
AND TWENTIETH DAY OF THE MONTH, WAS THE EARTH
DRIED.
Genesis 8:15 AND GOD SPAKE UNTO NOAH, SAYING,
Genesis 8:16 GO FORTH OF THE ARK, THOU, AND THY WIFE,
AND THY SONS, AND THY SONS' WIVES WITH THEE.
Genesis 8:17 BRING FORTH WITH THEE EVERY LIVING
THING THAT IS WITH THEE, OF ALL FLESH, BOTH OF
FOWL, AND OF CATTLE, AND OF EVERY CREEPING THING
THAT CREEPETH UPON THE EARTH; THAT THEY MAY
BREED ABUNDANTLY IN THE EARTH, AND BE FRUITFUL,
AND MULTIPLY UPON THE EARTH.
Genesis 8:18 AND NOAH WENT FORTH, AND HIS SONS, AND
HIS WIFE, AND HIS SONS' WIVES WITH HIM:
Genesis 8:19 EVERY BEAST, EVERY CREEPING THING, AND
EVERY FOWL, AND WHATSOEVER CREEPETH UPON THE
EARTH, AFTER THEIR KINDS, WENT FORTH OUT OF THE
ARK.
Genesis 8:20 And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of
every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings
on the altar.
Genesis 8:21 And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said
in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake;
for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I
again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
Genesis 8:22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and
cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not

Okie dokie....this shows your lack of knowledge of Judaism.

The Torah is the first 5 books of the TaNaKh.....And you are professing to have knowledge on the subject? Gee, you dont even understand what the Torah is in the first place.
Dear morrissey, I do not possess the time to inform you about the basics of Judaism. The written Torah is often used to describe the TaNaKh.

The word "Torah" is a tricky one, because it can mean different things in different contexts. In its most limited sense, "Torah" refers to the Five Books of Moses: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. But the word "torah" can also be used to refer to the entire Jewish bible (the body of scripture known to non-Jews as the Old Testament and to Jews as the Tanakh or Written Torah), or in its broadest sense, to the whole body of Jewish law and teachings.

To Jews, there is no "Old Testament." The books that Christians call the New Testament are not part of Jewish scripture. The so-called Old Testament is known to us as Written Torah or the Tanakh.

http://www.jewfaq.org/torah.htm

The Written Torah is often called the Tanakh, which stands for Torah (T), Nevi'im (N) and Ketuvim (K).

http://judaism.about.com/cs/judaismbasics/f/torah.htm



You are still leaving me with questions...I could make (probably false, but to be the devils advocate, lets say it) an assumption that, you never know, he could have heard the Jewish storys, and had others transcribe them for him. Surely he wasnt deaf? Are you trying to tell me that Mohammed never met a Jew or christian in his life, before he revealled the Quran to the people of his town? This is a possibility, as you can never be sure who's met who in their life, and using their testimony is useless, as you have to use trust, yep, good old blind faith, to give them the benefit of the doubt and believe their words.
Other questions? Or is it that you cannot acknowledge the merits of these answers which leads you making more questions.

Prophet Muhammad (Peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) did not have any religious discussions with Jews or Christians. The only occassion where he did have one with them was 13 years after the revelation of the Glorious Qur'an had initiated. Propet Muhammad (Peace and blessings of Allah) teached them the Tawheed (Islamic monotheism). Most of them embraced Islam.

The link that I used as reference elobrates the matter in a more detailed way. In addition, I also like to cite this article byDR. Jamal A. Badawi that also sheds light on the issue:


At least three questions may shed light on this issue:





  1. What was Muhammad's background and education before he started his mission at the age of forty, and to what extent could such background have resulted in what he brought forth?
  2. What was the extent of his 'contacts" with Jews and Christians, and to what extent could such contacts have resulted in the faith he proclaimed?
  3. Analytically speaking, how far can the Judaeo-Christian thought be traced in what Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) taught? And if there is any similarities between both teachings, how could that be explained?
(1) The Question of Background: Historically speaking, Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was an illiterate man. There is no evidence that he knew how to read or write. Even the Qur'an which he stated was the Word of God was not written down by him but he dictated it to the "scribes of revelation" who wrote it down and committed it to memory. Another historical document that is still available is the letter sent by Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) to the ruler of Egypt inviting him to accept Islam[23]. This letter written for Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) carries his seal rather than his signature. Besides the lack of significant education, formal or otherwise, religious or secular, there is no account in his life, until the age of forty, that shows his scholarly tendencies or achievements in any of the spectrum of subjects with which the Qur'an deals. How could such an illiterate man, suddenly, at the age of forty, bring about an ideological and religious revolution that changed the face of history?

(2) The Question of Environment: As we looked into the man's background, we may as well look into the type of environment in which he was reared in order to see the extent of his possible exposure to Judaeo-Christian thought. Unlike Moses (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) who was reared in a center of learning and civilization , and unlike Jesus (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and other Israelite prophets who emerged in the center of Judaism, if not in the religious hierarchy[24] itself, Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was raised in a predominantly pagan society with no significant Jewish tribes lived, was too far to be considered as part of Muhammad's immediate environment, especially when the seventh century means of transportation and communication are considered.

Some may assert, however, that through his travels with the caravans, Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) might have learned about Judaism and Christianity. The danger in a statement like this is not in its theoretical possibility. The danger lies instead in the hasty and superficial conclusions that are often based on it. Assuming that Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) met some Jews and Christians during his travels, or when the latter visited Mecca, which is a fair assumption, what was the extent of his exposure to their teachings? Was such as exposure sufficient to raise reasonable doubts that he copied or compiled the Qur'an from their scriptures?

Historically speaking, and in spite of the reasonable details about Muhammad's life, there is evidence of two travels that Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) made, both to Syria. In one trip, he accompanied his uncle as a twelve-year old boy. Would it be reasonable to assume that during such a trip, a twelve-year old boy would learn all the high concepts of theology which were at that time the exclusive knowledge of high priests? In the second trip, Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was twenty-five years old, and he was leading Khadija's caravan[25]. It would be highly imaginary to say that through his occasional chats with Jews and Christians, while busy with his caravan, Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) learned enough about either or both religions to formulate a new powerful and viable religion, a task that defies the collective efforts of scholars for centuries. Furthermore, the above assertion does not provide answers to the following questions:
  1. Why is it, that in spite of the abundance of historical material on Muhammad's life, and in spite of the extensive research on his life for centuries by his severe critics, why was it not possible to discover that mysterious teacher (s) through whom Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) might have learned all that?
  2. It is known that Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was opposed, ridiculed and persecuted for nearly thirteen years by his own contemporaries. With this magnitude of severe enemies, was it not possible for them to prove to the masses that Muhammad's claim of revelation was sheer fabrication ? Was it not possible for them to reveal and name what they alleged to be the human source or sources of his teachings?[26]. Even some of his adversaries who made this assertion changed their minds later on and accused him, instead, of magic or of being possessed by evil…etc.
  3. Muhammad was raised among his people and every aspect of his life was exposed to them, especially by the openness that characterizes tribal life in the desert[27]. How could the multitudes of his contemporaries, including many of his close relatives who knew him so well, -- how could they believe in his truthfulness if they had any doubt that he was claiming credit for ideas taught to him by some other teachers without bothering to give them credit?
  4. What kind of teacher might have taught Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) a coherent and complete religion that changed the face of history? Why didn't he claim the credit for himself? Why couldn't he or they (if any) speak against the alleged student who continued learning from them, while ignoring them and claiming some other divine source for his teachings?
  5. How could many Jews and Christians amongst his contemporaries become Muslims and believe in his truthfulness if they knew that he was copying from their scriptures or learning from their priests or rabbis?
  6. It is known that some Qur'anic revelations came to Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) in the presence of people. The Qur'an was revealed on the span of twenty-three years, where then was that mysterious, perhaps invisible human teacher of Muhammad? How could he have hidden himself for so long? Or how could Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) who was constantly surrounded by his followers, how was he able to make frequent secret visits to that mysterious teacher or teachers for twenty-three years without being caught even once?
http://www.ymofmd.com/books/prophethoodanalytical/mproph_judao.htm



Ok, does this mean we ask you for proof, or we try to prove things to you?
You haven't conceived the meaning of the verse. Jews (just like the Christians) have this notion that only the Choson ones can inherit the real Paradise. Bear in mind that the Paradise of of the Gentiles (Noachides) is NOTHING compared to what the Jews will receive.

And then lastly, you ranted on and quoted excerpts from Gil Student's site.

Allow me to expose the parts where he distorted his texts and concealed parts that promoted racism.

Review of Gill Student's website by Sasson Lerner at

http://www.talkreason.org/articles/students.cfm

A fragment of the conclusion:
Finally, as noted at the beginning of this essay, Student's work is plagued by an explicitly apologetic stance. Contrary to his site's title, he is interested not in "the real truth about the Talmud" but in demonstrating that Early Rabbinic sources "are not racist or derogatory to gentiles." Like in the old joke about the difference between a researcher and a preacher, the conclusion is given – what facts can we find to support it? With this kind of attitude there is little wonder that most of Student's quotations of Early Rabbinic sources are too much selective or one-sided, preventing an unsuspecting reader from the outset from appreciating fully the texts and the issues involved – and that sometimes he is driven to plainly wrong interpretations of the sources he used (like taking the discussion in Berakhot 25b to mean that gentiles are to be considered non-animals generally, rather than specifically in regard to the issue of nakedness). In short, those people who "lack the scholarly background" to understand the Early Rabbinic sources on their own would gain nothing, and miss much, by turning to Student's site for aid. [Which you have been in engaging morrissey]He also states:
But a good place to start may be Sacha Stern's Jewish Identity in Early Rabbinic Writings (Leiden: Brill, 1994), which had its origins in the Ph.D. thesis written by this Orthodox Jewish scholar in the St. Cross College of Oxford. As its title bespeaks, it not only analyzes a large number of Early Rabbinic sources touching, inter alia, on the perception of and relation to gentiles, but also strives to comprehend these sources in the larger framework of Jewish identity, as these sources and the people standing behind them understood and cultivated it.

Let's see what Stern concludes in his book:

To conclude, rabbinic sources suggest that although the title of "man" is restricted to Israel, in some sense Israel transcend the level of humanity, and have some affinity with angels and even with God. The nations, who have an intrinsic affinity with animals, stand in radical contrast to them... Righteous and angelic, the superiority of Israel over the nations should be by now self-evident. Rabbinic sources do not shy from stating that Israel are the choicest of all nations, the best, the greatest, the highest, the most beloved of the Almighty. One Jew outweighs all the nations put together. Appropriately, every morning is recited the daily blessing "that He has not made me a non-Jew".

This superiority is said, in Talmudic and other sources, to provide substantial benefits to Israel. According to the prevailing opinion, Israel are immune from the astrological influence of constellations. "Israel are sons of kings"; "all Israel are worthy of kingship". Israel are not fit for slavery, for "'They are My slaves (says the Almighty)', and not slaves of any other slaves". A non-Jew who hits a Jew is punishable by death. According to later sources, touching Israel is tantamount to sacrilege, for they are holy. Israel are compared to the beach upon which the waves cannot prevail; so the nations continuously threaten Israel, but never to any avail. "Israel are mighty before the nations"; like God, they are masters over all the inhabitants of earth.


Peace
 
Morrissey said:
Okie dokie....this shows your lack of knowledge of Judaism.

The Torah is the first 5 books of the TaNaKh.....And you are professing to have knowledge on the subject? Gee, you dont even understand what the Torah is in the first place.

kadafi said:
The Written Torah is often called the Tanakh, which stands for Torah (T), Nevi'im (N) and Ketuvim (K).

http://judaism.about.com/cs/judaismbasics/f/torah.htm

SubhanAllah, that's going to be very tough for Morrissey to swallow. Kadafi has to teach her about her own religion. :) She should have thought twice before making such a comment.

:w:
 
Exactly especially against brother kadafi a master on comparative religion!
 
root said:
Why do you need a path to God?

?

This debate has been quite complex. This said, I have read it in full and still disagree with your "Theory" of why we are here.

This isnt something I said - are you attributing it to me?

I'm not here to try and convert anyone to anything. I state this repetitively.

A 'path' is being offered to me when I have already arrived as a Noachide. I dont know why I need to find G-d through Islam when I already have found the Creator of the Universe?

My experience here is that of an ice salesman trying to sell ice to an eskimo....
 
Islam needs anti-semitism to survive. The very foundation of Islam is the slanderous baseless claim that the Jewish people corrupted their writings.

You NEED this to be true. You need to make illegitmate an entire nation. You have unsuccessfully taken 9 pages in trying to convince me.

You cannot even see the historical pattern which you are merely just a part of.
Since the birth of the Jewish people when they left Egypt, every major empire and nation has tried to claim what you claim - that the Jews are illegitimate and therefore should no longer exist. (you think they should abandon their Jewish beliefs and assimilate into your foriegn beliefs, therefore no longer exist).

Why do you think you are trying to teach me something new and revolutionary about the Jewish people? People like you have been hating the Jews for millenia (not just centuries, MILLENIA).

What makes you new and innovative?

The Egyptians wanted to destroy the Jews, The Romans, the Greeks, the Spanish, the Christians, the Germans etc etc . You are no different. You are just in the Jew-hating club. Wow, congratulations. Arent you really clever.

But for millenia, the Jewish people have survived despite their persecution. This is one of the biggest undeniable factors which is one of the factors which actually makes religions such as yours suspicious and paranoid.

Nothing has stopped the Jewish people. Other nations disappear with time and archaeology, when they have been treated merely but once, in the manner the Jews have suffered. The Jews have been strong despite massacres, holocausts, forced assimilation, dispersion from their homeland.

Why?

Me-thinks G-d has a hand in their miraculous survival.

Think what you want. If it makes you satisfied in life to try and prove that an entire nation of people are fools, then be my guest.

I cannot stomach such Lashon HaRa. Such things are not written in my soul.

I therefore have no other option but to reject Islam.
 
Root was talking to me, and I'll get his post later. But Morrissey, why don't you respond to Br. Kadafi?
 
I think you missed something, Morrissey:
Morrissey said:
Okie dokie....this shows your lack of knowledge of Judaism.

The Torah is the first 5 books of the TaNaKh.....And you are professing to have knowledge on the subject? Gee, you dont even understand what the Torah is in the first place.

kadafi said:
The Written Torah is often called the Tanakh, which stands for Torah (T), Nevi'im (N) and Ketuvim (K).

http://judaism.about.com/cs/judaismbasics/f/torah.htm

SubhanAllah, that's going to be very tough for Morrissey to swallow. Kadafi has to teach her about her own religion. :) She should have thought twice before making such a comment.

:w:

All you have given us is an emotional response:
You are just in the Jew-hating club.
Yet you don't realize that Racism is haraam in Islam, read Suratul Hujurat, which explicitly forbids it.

www.IslamdenouncesAntisemitism.com
 
I'm going to leave the forum Ansar. The anti-semitism is making me nauseous. I had a dodgy stomach from hearing such hatred against the Jews, and had to take bed-rest. I guess my heart doesnt believe in illegitmising a group of people. To see it happening in real life is shocking, like when I watched Schindlers List. My youngest son I named Oskar, in rememberence of that Hero. Someone who didnt judge anyone, or try to illegitmise them to further his cause. (So to Crystal Eyes, how can I be Jewish if I give my son the name Oskar? If it were Yitzchak, you might have reason to be suspicious, Oskar is a huge give-away that I am indeed not Jewish).

I cannot be bothered with Kadafis post, he obviously, didnt read mine, so I am wasting my time when I could be spending it more fruitfully with my children.

Ansar, I came here open minded, ready to face the fears I thought were unfounded. But instead from what you all say, my fears have only been realised.

So I am going.

Say what you like about me, you are only a human being, and I know HaShem knows my heart, and I stand honest before Him at all times (because it is impossible to do otherwise, since I cannot escape Him).

Good bye
 
After a very simple dialogue you claim Anti-Semitism, yet my Jewish friends who are regular attendants on this forum know that I harbour no such feelings.

If our view of the Torah is "anti-semitic", I wonder what we should call your view of Prophet Muhammad saws. In that case, it is even more racist, since you deny his prophethood yet we do not deny the divine origin of the Torah, only the preservation of it.

I think you are acting in an emotional manner, and I hope when you calm down you will reconsider this decision.

:w:
 
Jew-Hating?

I will tell you something, before I even read a word of the Qu'ran in my language I used to have hate for jews, I mean I had a real dislike for them for what they where doing and are still doing to the muslims. However since I picked up the Qu'ran and read I have come to love the storys of the Children Of Israel and Moses (PBUH), and since I have read it the hatred has gone from my heart, truly I have no malice at all towards honest living jews, where as before I had even read the Qu'ran I hated them no matter what, but since reading it and understanding the hate has completely gone. Judaism is a religion that I respect, more than any other religion outside of Islam, due to the belief in Tawheed (ie Oneness) of Allah (SWT). This was further enhanced by seeing members coming from the Jews For Judaism site (I think thats the name) who have conducted themselves very well and answered many questions on there religion.

Im sorry to say but to label us Jew-Hating, is just a cop out because you are unable to refute the points raised.

Wa'Salam
 
Khattab said:
Judaism is a religion that I respect, more than any other religion outside of Islam, due to the belief in Tawheed (ie Oneness) of Allah (SWT).

I think that is a very powerful testimony against the notion of anti-semitism.

:thumbs_up

:w:
 
kadafi said:
Morrissey, how far are you acquainted with the Torah? Its history, its reliability. From what I've witnessed, the Variations in the Divine Names in Genesis; the Secondary Variations in Diction and Style; the parallel or Duplicate Accounts (Doublets); the Continuity of the Various Sources; and the political assumptions implicit in the text terms do not even a ring a bell.
So A godly document is not allowed to vary in any of those ways? The Quran varies just as easily.

Do you deny that there are 99 names of God in the Quran? Your best argument is that they are all descriptive and not equivilent to Allah, but you do not grant us the same flexability? The same is true. Allah did not reveal his personal name to Muhammed or his followers (at least I have not read any instance where such is declared), instead Allah is equal to the Hebrew El and Elohim. The other names are descriptive, with the exception of YHVH, the true name of God which was revealed to Moses.

Prophet Muhammad (Peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) did not have any religious discussions with Jews or Christians. The only occassion where he did have one with them was 13 years after the revelation of the Glorious Qur'an had initiated. Propet Muhammad (Peace and blessings of Allah) teached them the Tawheed (Islamic monotheism). Most of them embraced Islam.
If you speak of what happend at Media, Banu Qainuqa, the Jews, were expelled, and the remainder of the city converted.
You haven't conceived the meaning of the verse. Jews (just like the Christians) have this notion that only the Choson ones can inherit the real Paradise. Bear in mind that the Paradise of of the Gentiles (Noachides) is NOTHING compared to what the Jews will receive.
This is simply a faceless lie, there is only one paradise, and it is open to all.
 
selam alaikum
First of all I admire your attempts to convince other people of the truth as I admire your knowledge on the subject. I would however bring something else up to everybody's attention. Please refrain from "attacking" other religions. This will only result in other people attaking islam.
Surely there is more then enoughf proof, as there are miracles; in the qur'an to convince people.

@ morrissey:
I hope you haven't already left over this discussion. Surely as you are passionate about your believe you'd understand the same of others, and see how we'r al just tryin' to help one another. The feelings (you have about your religion) you've come to discribe are very familiar. And that's actualy quite normal since the book that insired you is by the same god as the book that inspired me. I know there is nothing I can say that wil make make you change your mind. Every attempt to describe the very essence of the reasons why I reverted to Islam would not come close to that essence. I would however like to give you this one advise: If there ever comes a time in your life in wich you feel tested in your beliefs, you feel in doubt. For the benefith of the doubt, READ!!!

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/
 
Last edited:
This is simply a faceless lie, there is only one paradise, and it is open to all.
So whats the point in being a Jew? In this sense, it is better for person to be a Noachide than a Jew as they have less commandments. Do you think it would be fair to the Jews?
 
Chuck said:
So whats the point in being a Jew?
He choose to have us to follow his Torah, and we accepted. He didn't choose us for a special reward, and we didn't accept it because we were promised special treatement. Our mission is to follow the law He gave us.That's the point.
Do you think it would be fair to the Jews?
You'll have to ask God that question, but He has laid out our way of life and how we should live for us to best serve Him.

This is why Judaism is tolerant of other paths for non-Jews. God didn't tell us to force everyone to act like us, He just personalized our path for His reasons. Maybe it is to make our lives harder, to give us more ways in which to do good, but it's what He gave us, and we're stuck with it.
 

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