Why is there Distrust between Christians, Jews and Muslims?

[barney]

You havn't quoted one shred of evidence to prove that there were any jews in Makkah, and regarding the act of treason the jews commited - why shouldn't they be expelled?
.

I had already replied that they were not an established community and that the distrust, in my opinion really began at Medina. Also that I stood corrected that the jews were a major reason for the exodus. It was mainly due to the Quaresh.
But i'll show you where I read of the meccan jews rejected Islam:

Biography of the Prophet and History of the Orthodox Caliphs, (2000) p. 51
Chapter Nine: The Muslims and the Jews
The Jews' Attitude to Islam
The Jews before Islam used to boast to the Arabs that they were a people with a [divine] book, having embraced a religion that had been sent down from God's presence. They used to say that a prophet would be sent soon and victory would be the lot of those who followed him until the Day of Judgment. When the Prophet they were talking about was sent from among the Arabs they became displeased and did not believe in his prophethood. Then the Prophet emigrated to Medina which was inhabited by the Jews of [the tribes of] the Qaynuqa', the Nadir and the Qurayzah

As to weather they should have expelled them for breaking a treaty, thats clearly going to be a Big YES! from the Muslims and a Big NO! from the jews. Lets take a look at the treaty.

http://www.constitution.org/cons/medina/macharter.htm

The breach of treaty by the killing of the muslim who killed the jew who dishonoured (assaulted? perhaps sexually assaulted?) the muslim woman is covered by this section:
If any un-believer kills a Believer, without good cause, he shall be killed in return, unless the next of kin are satisfied (as it creates law and order problems and weakens the defence of the State). All Believers shall be against such a wrong-doer. No Believer will be allowed to shelter such a man.

So the breach of treaty seems clear. It dosn't cover belivers killing unbelivers who have signed up to it and so It is technically as far as i can see , legal within it's terms to classify it as broken by the Jews.
What should have been the punishment for the breach of treaty? Well it says that ultimate resolution was with Muhammed and Allah, so the "ousting" of the Jews would also be technically legal.

 

[- Qatada -]

Thanks for clarifying your position. The other issue is irrelevant anyway since the laws within a nation are set for a reason.


Regards.

 

[Umar001]

Al Habeshi:
Teenagers normally stop a debate with unfounded accusations and insults. That is not the way for mature adults. If you wish me to respond to any question, then please ask me without such erroneous and prejudicial remarks.

Well I didnt conclude anything I just put forth that I doubt the intentions behind it.

But to further the discussion I will not make any sort of comments, just ask.

I have yet to come across anywhere where the Muhammad, peace be upon him, 'admonished' his companions to believe in the 'Jewish Torah and the Christian Gospels'

Could you please provide the source to aid me in my learning.

Also out of curiosity, if Muhammad is a messenger then how does on reconcile his message with the belief held by most Christians?

Eesa.

 

[barney]

I'll just add that, based on modern (western) standards, rape wouldnt be sufficiant cause to commit murder, and a single murder wouldnt cause a whole tribe to be evicted.If it was then Barnsley West Yorkshire would be throwing out its various tribes on a weekly basis.

After studying the events in Medina, I think that the reprisal murder was just a catalyst. The Rejection of Mohammeds prophethood by the jews I see as the major cause for the seige and subsequent conflict.

 

[Kashnowe]

i think there is mistrust between all three religions in a general sense. i believe it comes from ignorance and fear.

the same is how people in a a big corportation (world) don't trust eachother. each person is trying to keep their job security (land, laws,culture), hoping the promotion (land, money, opportunity) won't go to their neighbor in the next cubicle or worst of all get fired (killed) because in t he end people fear failure. its part of survival. ok that makes sense to me i'm hopingit makes sense to you all

another example i can think of is slavery in america. african americans still distrust white americans. and white americans in turn distrust afrian americans. all of this is from ignorance and fear. its from generations ago when slavery was legal. and now it is not. so blacks distrust the whites because the fact that white people enslaved, beat, raped, lynched innocent blacks. and that does horrible things to families that causes emotions, ideas, and feelings of hate to be passed on to future generations (as all peolple learn from their elders examples). and then white people now distrust the blacks because they see them as a threat for physical safety,jobs, education (affirmative action), land, shoplifting etc. and most blacks and whites in america are christians!!! of course this is a very generalized statement and there are exceptions everywhere. but the effects of slavery are still felt every day in america.
it causes unconsious distrust most of the time. a white woman will clutch her purse when she walks by a black man on the street and not even realize she is doing so. now in american the distrust is with the hispanics and whites and blacks.

it takes g enerations for these feelings to go away and the same is i think for jews, christians, and muslims. we all need to just live as examples for others.

and sadly most of the distrust is caused by politicians.

i remember seeing a special on tv a few months ago, a white american reporter (diane sawyer) went to iran where there was a protest in the streets and everyone was chanting "death to america" and the reporter stopped to talk to one of the women shouting and said "i am american do you want me to die?" and the woman said "no, no, i love you" and the reporter said "why then are you chanting death to america" and the women said she meant death to the policies and govt of america. but she loved all american people. so.................i thought that was just lovely.

most people are just ignorant and afraid like a scared dog with its tail between its legs. ashamed.

 

[- Qatada -]

I'll just add that, based on modern (western) standards, rape wouldnt be sufficiant cause to commit murder, and a single murder wouldnt cause a whole tribe to be evicted.If it was then Barnsley West Yorkshire would be throwing out its various tribes on a weekly basis.

After studying the events in Medina, I think that the reprisal murder was just a catalyst. The Rejection of Mohammeds prophethood by the jews I see as the major cause for the seige and subsequent conflict.

The issues been heavily discussed within another thread, and i've clarified my position on these 'morals' already:

That exact same point can be used against people who change their morals continuouslly since one thing may be classed as totally evil at one time and later on be altered to be encouraged and liked. Therefore the people don't have a common ground to stand on together, and due to that - there is no concept of morals since everyone is always in a state of confusion to what is good or not.

This then makes the people slaves to society because they have to follow the norms of that society [which is controlled by the people higher in social class], because if they don't - they'll be looked at as a stranger and therefore the person has to go along with the false 'edited' morals in order to fit in or be accepted.

http://www.islamicboard.com/730595-post126.html


If you want to discuss the Jews of Medina more, please do so in this thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/26937-jews-medina.html



Regards.

 

[ibrarfaiz]

Nice points made thanks a good explanation

 

[Walter]

Hi Islamirama:

Both Christian and Muslim communities have their texts (Bible and Koran) and their traditions/opinions. If a specific tradition or opinion conflicts with the text, then we should agree to accept the text.

You have noted that Mohammed came for all of mankind and that previous revelations are obsolete. I believe that these are opinions which conflict with the text provided below.

3:164 - Allah did confer a great favour on the believers when He sent among them a messenger from among themselves, rehearsing unto them the Signs of Allah, sanctifying them, and instructing them in Scripture and Wisdom, while, before that, they had been in manifest error.

Is the Koran not referring principally to Arabs? The Koran also appears to clarify that no one messenger is more important than the others. They are all messengers.

4:150-152 - Those who deny Allah and His messengers, and (those who) wish to separate Allah from His messengers, saying: "We believe in some but reject others": And (those who) wish to take a course midway,- They are in truth (equally) unbelievers; and we have prepared for unbelievers a humiliating punishment. To those who believe in Allah and His messengers and make no distinction between any of the messengers, we shall soon give their (due) rewards: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

The issue with previous revelations is addressed in my reply to Al Habeshi.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Walter]

Al Habeshi:

There is an abundance of evidence in the Koran that Muslims must believe in the Books that came before.

e.g. 4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

The Koran clarifies these scriptures repeatedly as including the Torah and Gospel, for example:

5:44 - Lo! We did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and a light, by which the prophets who surrendered (unto Allah) judged the Jews, and the rabbis and the priests (judged) by such of Allah's Scripture as they were bidden to observe, and thereunto were they witnesses. So fear not mankind, but fear Me. And My revelations for a little gain. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are disbelievers.

5:46 - And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

5:48 - To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

The Koran admonishes persons to not simply believe but study and follow the previous books.

6:155-156 - And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy: Lest ye should say: "The Book was sent down to two Peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study:"

10:94 - If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.

Now the typical response is that the Books are no longer available. That is an opinion which I dealt with in the second article. The Books are available.

http://researching.wordpress.com/2007/04/11/islam-in-the-balance-part-2/

As to your question about “if Muhammad is a messenger then how does one reconcile his message with the belief held by most Christians?”.

As I explained to Islamirama, there are traditions and opinions and then there is the text. Please read the first article where I show that his principal message is similar to Jesus’.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[- Qatada -]

Yes, but if you noticed - we believe in the original Gospel revealed to Jesus son of Mary, and we believe in the Torah revealed to Moses - yet even the christians themselves can't agree on a common copy together. Since there is no original remaining right?


So we believe that there was an original, even though it doesn't exist no more. The Qur'an is the revelation which God/Allaah sent to His final servant and Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him.)

It confirmed what came before, and it is the Criterion between truth and falsehood. It has been preserved for us, and it will remain that way till the Day of Ressurection. A book for mankind, a light, a guidance and a Mercy from Allaah the Most High. Whosoever shuns it, will be disgraced by Allaah - yet he who follows it will draw closer to Allaah - his Creator and Sustainer, he will be successful in this life and the one to come. May Allaah make us of them. ameen.

 

[YEh]

Yes, but if you noticed - we believe in the original Gospel revealed to Jesus son of Mary, and we believe in the Torah revealed to Moses - yet even the christians themselves can't agree on a common copy together. Since there is no original remaining right?

So we believe that there was an original, even though it doesn't exist no more. The Qur'an is the revelation which God/Allaah sent to His final servant and Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him.)

It confirmed what came before, and it is the Criterion between truth and falsehood. It has been preserved for us, and it will remain that way till the Day of Ressurection. A book for mankind, a light, a guidance and a Mercy from Allaah the Most High. Whosoever shuns it, will be disgraced by Allaah - yet he who follows it will draw closer to Allaah - his Creator and Sustainer, he will be successful in this life and the one to come. May Allaah make us of them. ameen.

There is no original copies because it's 2000 years old and written on papyrus. There are only copies.
Likewise the Quran has no originals only copies. The paper just doesn't last that long.

Question: If there is no original copy of the Gospel (Ingeel) or the Torah, what was the point of Jesus preaching if it wasn't preserved for even 100 years. i.e. And according to Muslims, who say that Paul deviated from the teachings of Jesus (introduced the trinity) ?
We have fragments of some early copies maybe original copies from 150-200AD.

I would like to comment about why is their distrust between the people of the book and Muslims ?

I believe the teachings of the Quran contradict not only a vast number of hadiths, but itself too (explained away as abbrogation) and just plain contradiction.
Some hadiths that do contradict the Quran are followed by some people, unaware of their status that are very dangerous, teaching others to kill for blasphemy, or for insulting a muslim or Muhammad, etc..

The stories or more accurately, summaries are lacking in moral significance for the reader. It mainly teaches about the existance of God, law and how Muhammad dealt with his persercuters (unbelievers).
Very, very harshly in some cases. Compared to the detailed moral stories in the Bible, the Quran and hadith are very obviously not divine. The Quran is the equivalent of a gnostic sayings gospel.

It brings back the concept of judging others from the law it teaches.
When Jesus main teaching was "Do not judge others, or you will be judged".
This is concerning capital punishment, which Muhammad was all for.

Judging others, puts love aside and teaches hate and hypocrisy. Since we all sin. We all have our failings. How is one failing better than another failing to God ? It's not, all sin is wrong.
It's men who see some crimes as worse than others, since some cause more damage to us than others.
So I see Muhammad's teachings as very human. Not divine.
So a religion that is based on following the actions of a man is not a very good example to others.
The example of this man Muhammad as outlined in the Quran and hadith is not a rosy picture. Sure most of the Quran has nice teachings but there are many teachings which are very wrong, which extremists obviously follow that part of the Quran and hadith.

There is distrust because Muslims follow an example that teaches very human teachings which lead to violence and disrespecting the country they are a citizen of (bad mouthing, Sharia is better, Muslims are better than Christians, Jews, Atheists, etc).

Note:
Not meant to be an attack on Muhammad or Muslims. Just my opinion of reasons why Jews and Christians don't trust Muslims.
We trust individual people (Muslims, Chrsitians, whoever), but I believe the agenda of Islam (Umah) to turn everybody into Muslims (all countries to follow Sharia) is absolutely wrong.
Also the idea that following Sharia will lead to less crime. Which I don't think can be possible without the expense of basic human rights and freedoms.
Is worrying. +o(

YEh

 

[Umar001]

Both Christian and Muslim communities have their texts (Bible and Koran) and their traditions/opinions. If a specific tradition or opinion conflicts with the text, then we should agree to accept the text.

I believe you have made a mistake in your foundations which entails that the rest is likely to be mistaken.

You stated that the texts are respectively, Bible and Qu'ran for Christians and Muslims and then tranditions/opinions. Rather in Islam there is the sayings of Muhammad, which explain the Qu'ran and expound upon the Laws of Allah.

You have noted that Mohammed came for all of mankind and that previous revelations are obsolete. I believe that these are opinions which conflict with the text provided below.

It's not an opinion, rather, it is established in the Qu'ran:

And We have sent you (O Muhammad SAW) not but as a mercy for the 'Alamīn (mankind, jinns and all that exists). (Al-Anbiya 21:107)​

And whoever seeks a religion other than Islām, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers. (Aali Imran 3:85)​

So the verse you quoted have to be seen in the light of the Quran and Sunnah not just taken alone.

Is the Koran not referring principally to Arabs? The Koran also appears to clarify that no one messenger is more important than the others. They are all messengers.

Yes, but this does not mean that their missions are exactly the same, for example, Jesus was born of a virgin, Moses was not, Muhammad was illiterate and others might have not been, and so forth, we cannot reject messengers, for they are from God, but this does not mean their message was for us. Which is what the verse you quote says:

4:150-152 - Those who deny Allah and His messengers, and (those who) wish to separate Allah from His messengers, saying: "We believe in some but reject others": And (those who) wish to take a course midway,- They are in truth (equally) unbelievers; and we have prepared for unbelievers a humiliating punishment. To those who believe in Allah and His messengers and make no distinction between any of the messengers, we shall soon give their (due) rewards: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Accepting some and rejecting others is not acceptable.

Al Habeshi:

There is an abundance of evidence in the Koran that Muslims must believe in the Books that came before.

e.g. 4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

But believe in those scriptures in what way? This is where you understand this by what the rest of the Quran and the Teachings of Muhammad understanding of his companions say.

I asked in the first reply;

I have yet to come across anywhere where the Muhammad, peace be upon him, 'admonished' his companions to believe in the 'Jewish Torah and the Christian Gospels'

So please, show me where Muslims are told to believe in the GospelS? What you have quoted are instance where Muslims are told to believe in the Gospel of Jesus, the Evangel of Jesus, not the GospelS as you claim.

With regards to:

Now the typical response is that the Books are no longer available. That is an opinion which I dealt with in the second article. The Books are available.

Please simplify for me how you came to the conclusion that the books are available. I read the article and I have yet to understand how that is derived, all I understood is that Jesus spoke about not blindly doing rituals.

Regards,

Eesa.

 

[YEh]

More reasons of distrust.

Also the law of Islam tends to alienate Muslims from people of different beliefs.

Since they can't eat or drink what other people do. This is considered rude in many, many countries.

Muslims dress ultra conservatively and consider themselves more pious because of the clothes or beard they wear.
Which leads to a feeling of distrust between Mulsims and others.
Why do you feel you have to cover your whole body, don't you trust us ? Is a very common feeling when someone encounters this type of dress.

A woman or man can't be around someone of the opposite sex by themselves.
This could lead to no self control of the person. Since they haven't been exposed to that kind of situation before.

Muhammad practiced polygamy. This is just disgusting !
Nobody can believe a man who considers himself an example to mankind would commit such a sin ! Many find it unacceptable for a person to believe in polygamy and still consider themselves pious. So we wonder about their mental state to accept such a teaching as divine. :? :enough!:

YEh

 

[Umar001]

More reasons of distrust.

Also the law of Islam tends to alienate Muslims from people of different beliefs.

Since they can't eat or drink what other people do. This is considered rude in many, many countries.

Muslims dress ultra conservatively and consider themselves more pious because of the clothes or beard they wear.

Consider themselves more pious? Lol.

Which leads to a feeling of distrust between Mulsims and others.
Why do you feel you have to cover your whole body, don't you trust us ? Is a very common feeling when someone encounters this type of dress.

A woman or man can't be around someone of the opposite sex by themselves.
This could lead to no self control of the person. Since they haven't been exposed to that kind of situation before.

Just because someone doesnt talk to a girl does not mean that when a girl talks to him he'll rape her. Jee.

Muhammad practiced polygamy. This is just disgusting !

Marmite is disgusting too, and so is people who are not homosexual, and so are anti nudist, eww.

Nobody can believe a man who considers himself an example to mankind would commit such a sin !

A sin according to? Erm, ok, I think Satan thinks its a sin to worship God alone.

 

[YEh]

Distrust:

Not to mention the evil crimes that Muslims commit throughout the world on a daily basis.
- murders in the Sudan, ethnic cleansing.
- Murders of the coaltion of the willing in Iraq. Which is insane, since they had Saddam for a leader.
- Taliban fruit loops.
- Spitting on people because they are not Muslim in Egypt, England, etc..
This is just unheard of by a religion other than Islam.
- 9/11, Bali, Madrid, London bombings. Organised mass killings of innocent people.
Just the weirdest trend amongst religions. No other religions are this violent today.
- Egypt is persecuting non-muslims in schools on the streets, which are filled with garbage (God's will apparently :rollseyes).
- Indonesia has some of the Sharia laws in effect, and does nothing to curb crime, many people walk around stealing from stalls and shops with one hand.

The cutting the hand off for stealing law is evil and wrong. How is someone supposed to work after his hand is cut off ?

YEh

 

[skhalid]

No cause the differences within our religions cause a lot of arguments or debates if thats the appropriate word to use!
We agree on some things but major aspects let us down on having a strong relationship.
Anyways, the main point is that it is possible to get on ...I have friends of all types of religions and we have no problems whatsoever, we talk about religious stuff but never get into arguments...at the end of the day everyone has their religion and therefore follows them and have particular views about them...sensibly speaking that is....I think more can be done if both sides are willing...jazakallah

 

[- Qatada -]

There is no original copies because it's 2000 years old and written on papyrus. There are only copies.
Likewise the Quran has no originals only copies. The paper just doesn't last that long.

Uthmani Qur'an* -
- compiled by the companions of the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him.)

[- In the Museum of Turkey today -]

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...s/topkapi.html
​

Question: If there is no original copy of the Gospel (Ingeel) or the Torah, what was the point of Jesus preaching if it wasn't preserved for even 100 years.

Jesus son of Mary came to his people, to call them back to the true way of worshipping God Alone and to shun all false deities, that was the message of all the prophets of God.

i.e. And according to Muslims, who say that Paul deviated from the teachings of Jesus (introduced the trinity) ?

Maybe because Jesus son of Mary never called people to worship him? :?

We have fragments of some early copies maybe original copies from 150-200AD.

With a whole solid link of narration linked back to the time of Jesus son of Mary?

I would like to comment about why is their distrust between the people of the book and Muslims ?

I believe the teachings of the Quran contradict not only a vast number of hadiths, but itself too (explained away as abbrogation) and just plain contradiction.

That's ignorance on your part, since we know that the Qur'an and Sunnah are equal in matters of law in Islaam. So even if an authentic narration was to be a source of law, even if it wasn't from Qur'an - we still take it as a source of law since Allaah says in the Qur'an:

It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.

[Qur'an 33: 36]


By the Star when it goes down,-
Your Companion is neither astray nor being misled.
It is no less than inspiration sent down to him:
He was taught by one Mighty in Power,

[Qur'an Al-Najm 53: 1-5]

​

Some hadiths that do contradict the Quran are followed by some people, unaware of their status that are very dangerous, teaching others to kill for blasphemy, or for insulting a muslim or Muhammad, etc..

Let's see the christian stance to blasphemy:

Deuteronomy
Chapter 13
KJV

1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, 2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; 3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. 5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; 7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; 8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: 9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.
​

So if someone blasphemes in christianity and judaism - they get stoned to death!

The stories or more accurately, summaries are lacking in moral significance for the reader. It mainly teaches about the existance of God, law and how Muhammad dealt with his persercuters (unbelievers).


Very, very harshly in some cases. Compared to the detailed moral stories in the Bible, the Quran and hadith are very obviously not divine. The Quran is the equivalent of a gnostic sayings gospel.

You really think so? Seriosly, i can easily bring you a whole list of whats mentioned in the OT.

God's final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) fought those who fought the muslims, yet he inclined to peace many times, an example is when he opened Makkah and freed and forgave his persecutors and those who tortured the muslims severely throughout their lives, yet the custom at that time was to take everyone as a slave.

It brings back the concept of judging others from the law it teaches.
When Jesus main teaching was "Do not judge others, or you will be judged".
This is concerning capital punishment, which Muhammad was all for.

The Prophet said:'Do not search for (the faults of others), for if anyone searches for (others) faults, God will search for his.' (Sunan Abî Dawûd)


Capital punishment is in the OT, and since Jesus son of Mary never came to abrogate that law - it means that he was for it aswell.

Judging others, puts love aside and teaches hate and hypocrisy. Since we all sin. We all have our failings. How is one failing better than another failing to God ? It's not, all sin is wrong.

It's men who see some crimes as worse than others, since some cause more damage to us than others.

Yeah, so if some guy comes to you and kills all your women and children, along with all your brethren in faith - you're just going to turn the other cheek right?

In Islaam - we have justice, so we can actually defend ourselves and fight back, yet Allaah does not love the transgressors.

Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors. [Qur'an 2:190]
​

So I see Muhammad's teachings as very human. Not divine.

Religion is infact for humankind.

So a religion that is based on following the actions of a man is not a very good example to others.

So religion depends upon faith totally? No concept of being responsible for ones own actions?

The example of this man Muhammad as outlined in the Quran and hadith is not a rosy picture. Sure most of the Quran has nice teachings but there are many teachings which are very wrong, which extremists obviously follow that part of the Quran and hadith.

Maybe its because you visit anti-islamic sites alot? How about actually reading the biography of Muhammad (peace be upon him) to really see what his life was about?

http://www.islamicboard.com/prophet-muhammad-p/1715-biography-prophet-muhammad-saws.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/prophet-muhammad-p/13954-what-non-muslims-say-about-muhammad-s.html

There is distrust because Muslims follow an example that teaches very human teachings which lead to violence and disrespecting the country they are a citizen of (bad mouthing, Sharia is better, Muslims are better than Christians, Jews, Atheists, etc).

Some of the Companions once asked the Prophet (peace be upon him) to pray to Allah to invoke His curse upon the pagans. He replied: “I was not sent to curse people but as a blessing. (Sahîh Muslim)

O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Verily, the most honourable of you with Allâh is that (believer) who has At-Taqwa [i.e. one of the Muttaqûn (pious - see V.2:2). Verily, Allâh is All-Knowing, All-Aware.

[Qur'an 49:13]


[SIZE=-1]Taqwa: piety, "God-consciousness." Taqwa involves constant awareness and remembrance of Allah, and conscious efforts to adhere to His commandments and abstain from whatever He has forbidden.


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Character, Etiquettes and Morals

1. 
   [*]The Prophet said: 'Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character (Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik)
   [*]The Prophet said: 'There is nothing which is heavier upon the balance than the good character.' (Musnad Ahmad)
   [*]The Prophet said: 'Righteousness is good character, and sin is what makes you uncomfortable inside and you would not like other people to find out about.' (Sahîh Muslim)
   [*]The Prophet said: 'The Muslim does not slander, curse, speak obscenely, or speak rudely.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
   [*]The Prophet said: 'Whoever is deprived of gentleness is deprived of all good.' (Sahîh Muslim)
   [*]The Prophet said: 'Indeed Allah is gentle and loves gentleness, and gives due to gentleness that which He does not give to harshness.' (Sunan Ibn Mâjah, Sahîh Ibn Hibbân)
   [*]The Prophet said: 'Whoever suffers an injury done to him and forgives (the person responsible), Allah will raise his status to a higher degree and remove one of his sins.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
   [*] The Prophet said: 'Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well you will treat them well, and that if they do wrong you will do wrong. Instead, accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not to do wrong if they do evil.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
   [*]The Prophet said: 'Show mercy to those on earth so that He who is in heaven will have mercy on you.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

more:
http://www.islamicboard.com/userpage-user49.html

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Note:
Not meant to be an attack on Muhammad or Muslims. Just my opinion of reasons why Jews and Christians don't trust Muslims.
We trust individual people (Muslims, Chrsitians, whoever), but I believe the agenda of Islam (Umah) to turn everybody into Muslims (all countries to follow Sharia) is absolutely wrong.
Also the idea that following Sharia will lead to less crime. Which I don't think can be possible without the expense of basic human rights and freedoms.
Is worrying. +o(

YEh

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. [Qur'an 2:256]

​

 

[- Qatada -]

Distrust:

Not to mention the evil crimes that Muslims commit throughout the world on a daily basis.

Shall i give you a whole list of crimes [the Crusades] that are performed 'in the name of Christ?' :? I thought Jesus son of Mary brought a peaceful message?

Do you see where i'm getting at? Just because some people claim to follow the religion - doesn't mean that the acts they do are part of the religion.

- murders in the Sudan, ethnic cleansing.

And where is the proof that this is encouraged in Islaam?

The Prophet said: 'There is no superiority for an Arab over a non-Arab, nor for a non-Arab over an Arab, nor for a fair-skinned person over a person with dark skin, nor for a dark-skinned person over a person with fair skin. Whoever is more pious and God-fearing is more deserving of honour.' (Musnad Ahmad)

- Murders of the coaltion of the willing in Iraq. Which is insane, since they had Saddam for a leader.

Guess who placed him there in the first place? It was the US.

- Taliban fruit loops.

What's that supposed to mean? :?

- Spitting on people because they are not Muslim in Egypt, England, etc..
This is just unheard of by a religion other than Islam.

erm.. unheard from Islaam? Quote me from Islamic texts where it says that?


The Prophet said: 'Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well you will treat them well, and that if they do wrong you will do wrong. Instead, accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not to do wrong if they do evil.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

- 9/11, Bali, Madrid, London bombings. Organised mass killings of innocent people.

Whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind...

[Qur'an 5: 32]
​

The Messenger of Allaah said:

“Do not kill any old person, any child, or any woman.” [Abu Dawud]

“Do not kill the monks in monasteries,” or “Do not kill the people who are sitting in places of worship.” [Musnad Ahmad]

Narrated Anas ibn Malik: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: Go in Allah's name, trusting in Allah, and adhering to the religion of Allah's Apostle. Do not kill a decrepit old man, or a young infant, or a child, or a woman; do not be dishonest about booty, but collect your spoils, do right and act well, for Allah loves those who do well. (Sunan Abu Dawud , Book 14, Number 2608)


It is narrated by Ibn 'Umar that a woman was found killed in one of these battles; so the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) forbade the killing of women and children.

[Sahih Muslim, Book 019, Number 4320]


Remember that all this stuff is simply in the context of fighting ^ outside of the war-zone none of that is permissible anyway - unless there is a certain law which calls for capital punishment. And even then - not any tom, bob and harry can apply it - it's the Islamic judge.
​

Just the weirdest trend amongst religions. No other religions are this violent today.

That doesn't mean that what they show on the media is true. Like i've said before, christianities had such a bad history of violence that they feel ashamed when the Crusades are mentioned. Does that mean that christianity is really evil since its people did evil crimes in history, and still does today?

- Egypt is persecuting non-muslims in schools on the streets, which are filled with garbage (God's will apparently :rollseyes).

Again, bring proof from Islamic religious texts to show that its encouraged to kill innocent people?

- Indonesia has some of the Sharia laws in effect, and does nothing to curb crime, many people walk around stealing from stalls and shops with one hand.

Is that Islaam's fault or is that the Indonesian peoples fault? :?

The cutting the hand off for stealing law is evil and wrong. How is someone supposed to work after his hand is cut off ?

YEh

Why should a person steal in the first place?

 

[YEh]

Also the law of Islam tends to alienate Muslims from people of different beliefs.

Since they can't eat or drink what other people do. This is considered rude in many, many countries.

Muslims dress ultra conservatively and consider themselves more pious because of the clothes or beard they wear.
Which leads to a feeling of distrust between Mulsims and others.
Why do you feel you have to cover your whole body, don't you trust us ? Is a very common feeling when someone encounters this type of dress.

Consider themselves more pious? Lol.

Many people do, even my fairly liberal muslim friend.
The point was that if you cover yourself up. You don't trust us.

So we don't trust you.

A woman or man can't be around someone of the opposite sex by themselves.
This could lead to no self control of the person. Since they haven't been exposed to that kind of situation before.

Just because someone doesnt talk to a girl does not mean that when a girl talks to him he'll rape her. Jee.

The stats in Australia at least put down that about 65% of all rapes are by middle easterners. And some of the worst rapes that have happened in Australia were done by Muslims.

Muhammad practiced polygamy. This is just disgusting !
Nobody can believe a man who considers himself an example to mankind would commit such a sin ! Many find it unacceptable for a person to believe in polygamy and still consider themselves pious. So we wonder about their mental state to accept such a teaching as divine.

Marmite is disgusting too, and so is people who are not homosexual, and so are anti nudist, eww.

I don't think you understand how serious this is. Muhammad taught people to sin by practicising polygamy. It's just so deviant !!

Also why is it that a man can have 2 wives and a woman can't have 2 husbands ?

A sin according to? Erm, ok, I think Satan thinks its a sin to worship God alone.

You bring up a good point, how do you identify sin ?

With Muslims I believe it's anything in the Quran that Muhammad did.
Which is just the wrong way to look at it. How do you know then that what you have (in Islam) is a divine book.
Because it says so ? NO, that's ridiculous. Why then ?
Christians don't believe they are following a divine book just because it claims it is. It's because it's teachings are true and righteous.

It doesn't teach polygamy it teaches monogamy.
It teaches to give to anyone that asks and more.
It teaches to love everyone even your enemies.
To return all evil with something good.
To never hurt anyone for any reason.
Leave all judgement on the earth for God.
Do to others as you would have them do unto you.
etc..

YEh

p.s. so you have just proven your inability to be able to recognise sin. I worry about what your learning from Islam mg:

 

[- Qatada -]

Many people do, even my fairly liberal muslim friend.
The point was that if you cover yourself up. You don't trust us.

So we don't trust you.

Oh so if you go around naked, its a sign of trust right?

The stats in Australia at least put down that about 65% of all rapes are by middle easterners. And some of the worst rapes that have happened in Australia were done by Muslims.

Does that mean rape is permissible in Islaam?


Nor come nigh to adultery: for it is a shameful (deed) and an evil, opening the road (to other evils). [Qur'an 17:32]

I don't think you understand how serious this is. Muhammad taught people to sin by practicising polygamy. It's just so deviant !!

Prove to me where it says in the bible that polygamy is forbidden? If it doesn't - then that means its permitted.

Also why is it that a man can have 2 wives and a woman can't have 2 husbands ?

Ask any woman and she would prefer one man over loads, thats their nature.

You bring up a good point, how do you identify sin ?

God revealed the final revelation to His Messenger (peace be upon him) - it is the Criterion to judge between truth and falsehood, good and evil etc.

With Muslims I believe it's anything in the Quran that Muhammad did.
Which is just the wrong way to look at it. How do you know then that what you have (in Islam) is a divine book.

I would just like to quote what Ansar said in this post:

I'll try to give you a comprehensive answer as to why the Qur'an is regarded the way it is by so many people.

1. The Power of the Qur'anic Message:

-it is universal, unrestricted by time and applicable to any nation/culture. The Qur'an is by far the most widely followed and acted-upon book in the world. As for the Bible, most Christians follow the Church over the Bible, and each denomination has its own bible anyway. The fact that there is no other book in the world that forms the constitution of the lives of billions of followers is itself a sign.
-it is practical and logical, it can be established practically in society and is logically able to address the fundamental questions relating to all aspects of our universe.
-it is comprehensive, addressing all fundamental sectors of human life, be it spritual, physical, mental, social/societal, politcal, environmental, economic, etc.
-it is natural, in concordance with a person's nature and what they feel deep inside to be the truth.
-it is clear and consistent, free of the changes in worldview and understanding that dominate the works of human beings.
-it is deep, having provoked thousands upon thousands of volumes of exegesis, expounding upon its meaning and revealing fascinating details that many people otherwise miss in their reading of the Qur'an.​

2. The Power of the Qur'anic Style:

-it is Interactive, the text seems alive as it responds to the very questions that arise in one's mind at that moment. It speaks to the reader and delivers specific yet universal advice.
-it is Inerrant, free from contradictons and discrepancies, or other errors that would normally be found in the works of human beings.
-it is Memorizable; the Qur'an is the only book in the world which is continuously being memorized by millions of people and recited daily. No other book has been committed to memory by so many followers, as though it fits in one's mind as a key in a lock.
-its Language, the Qur'anic arabic is a stunning miracle in itself, its style is powerful and its recitation is melodious. More info: Here, Here, Here.​

3. The Power of the Qur'anic Text:

-it is Preserved, even after fourteen and a half centuries, the Qur'an is recited today exactly as it was first revealed. Thus it was free of the tampering that befell other religious scriptures.
-its other Remarkable features; many Muslims find a striking concordance between many Qur'anic statements and established scientific truths, which could not have been known by any normal human being 14 centuries ago. (see here). Many Muslims have also found the Qur'anic perfection extends even to various mathematical miracles within the text. As well, there are the Qur'anic Prophecies.
-its Authorship; the context in which the Qur'an was revealed leaves the reader with no other conclusion than the fact that it could only be the word of God.​

This is just my summary of the miraculous features Muslims find in the Qur'an. For more information, please see section 3c of The First and Final Commandment.

Because it says so ? NO, that's ridiculous. Why then ?
Christians don't believe they are following a divine book just because it claims it is. It's because it's teachings are true and righteous.

Deuteronomy
Chapter 2


32-37
And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have begun to give Sihon and his land before thee: begin to possess, that thou mayest inherit his land. 32 Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, to fight at Jahaz. 33 And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. 34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain. 36 From Aroer, which is by the brink of the river of Arnon, and from the city that is by the river, even unto Gilead, there was not one city too strong for us: the LORD our God delivered all unto us




Is that really righteous? I dont like quoting to cause enmity, but i feel that you're doing something similar. So i just want to show to you that your scripture isn't that righteous afterall.

It doesn't teach polygamy it teaches monogamy.

Proof please?

It teaches to give to anyone that asks and more.

The Prophet said: 'Charity (sadaqah) is due upon every joint of a person on every day that the sun rises. Administering justice between two people is an act of charity; and to help a man concerning his riding beast by helping him on to it or lifting his luggage on to it is an act of charity; a good word is charity; and every step which you take to prayer is charity; and removing that which is harmful from the road is charity.'(Sahîh Bukhârî)

To return all evil with something good.

Nor can goodness and Evil be equal. Repel (Evil) with what is better: Then will he between whom and thee was hatred become as it were thy friend and intimate! [Qur'an 41: 34]

To never hurt anyone for any reason.

Then how about the Crusades?

Leave all judgement on the earth for God.

So theres no courts in christianity and no law whatsoever?

Do to others as you would have them do unto you.
etc..

The Prophet said: 'None of you is truly a believer until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself.'(Sahîh Muslim)

YEh

p.s. so you have just proven your inability to be able to recognise sin. I worry about what your learning from Islam mg:

We actually have a true Authentic Criterion to distinguish between truth and falsehood, good and evil etc. [the Qur'an and the example of God's Messenger, Muhammad - peace be upon him.], do you?