Worldwide caliph

[Mustafa2012]

Wow. I'm a "troll broad", a "tom dick and herbert schmuck face" and what else? Vitriol is very easily produced here it seems. What I've heard so far is defensive, angry and hateful retorts to my posts. And a great deal about how everyone picks on the Muslims, how "unfair" and onesided it all is. It is exactly what I hear from other groups that have the same martyr attitudes. Now, it may be that Muslims are and have been mistreated. I don't know. As someone here has said, "we" are not historians. Well, neither am I. I've heard repeatedly here and other places about the terrible Crusaders and their violence and murders and on and on. Things that happened so long ago seem to be very much a presence in some people's thinking. And the blurring of edges between Christians and military actions by the US and other countries is also becoming clear. It is almost as if the US and other countries military is made up of Christians, which I can assure you in the case of the US, at least, is most definitely NOT true.

I don't know exactly what produced such vitriolic reactions to my posts but one thing is also becoming clear and that is that I'm not getting answers to the questions but mainly rebukes, sometimes worded in very rude, hateful ways, sometimes in cautionary ways. I've heard a Muslim speaker say that there is no freedom of speech in Islam. Though I think it was intended to say there is not freedom to speak against Mohammed or the god of Islam, it does seem to be part of the thinking on this forum. I don't intend to stop posting, so fire away, you brave mud slingers. Just btw, I have gone to some of the sites mentioned to me. And read from them. (Just so you know, Scimitar.)

Our responses are defensive because this post of yours was the second thread you started where you asked questions in a very assumptive and disrespectful way, without first checking from sources that are easily as available to you as this forum.

The previous thread "Why the violence" that you started is the one that upset many people because of how wrongly it was phrased.

Now, as you've found out, your assumptions are totally wrong apart from some exceptions which we don't consider to be the status quo or the norm.

Re: this statement of yours...

It is almost as if the US and other countries military is made up of Christians, which I can assure you in the case of the US, at least, is most definitely NOT true.

Why do you find it so difficult to hear us refer to the U.S and U.K. as majority Christian countries who perpetrated acts of mass genocide in Iraq and Afghanistan and are standing by watching Israel occupy and murder Palestinians for so many years.

Maybe you fail to remember Bush referring to the war on Iraq as a Christian Crusade. Since he was the one who brought religion into the war we are simply pointing that out. David Cameron also referred to the U.K. as a majority Christian country.

If you don't like to wear the label assumed by your former President then don't go painting Muslims by a similar label which a few minority extremists use and which the media is capitalising on and distorting.

If you compare the hundreds and thousands of casualties in the recent illegal wars on terror against the no. of casualties actually caused by muslim extremists (not the ones that have no evidence to support them like the 9/11 attack) you will find that the no. of casualties left by Muslim attacks pale into insignificance by the ones by your fellow countrymen.

In the future, please try to be a bit more respectful in the way you phrase your questions so that people don't take you the wrong way and respond in the way they've done so far.

 

[Hulk]

BornAgain.. anyone reading your posts can see that you only see what you want to see. First you talk about how muslims want world domination, how muslims force conversion on people, physically abuse non-muslims. Then when you get responses you say that muslims are angry, hateful, don't like free speech.

If your objective is to delude yourself in the first place then please do it elsewhere as I don't think people are interested in contributing to such goals.

If however your objective is to truely, sincerely learn. Then you need to realise that the key to knowledge is in the question, and then look back at your question. A question based on stupidity would not likely make the questioner any smarter even if the questions are properly answered.

The stupidity in your question? Well basically you skipped a whole bunch of important questions which I suppose you decided that you already know.

1) DO Muslims want world domination?
2) How are non-muslims treated according to Sharia?
3) DO muslims force people into converting?

These are questions that you answered yourself in your post. So you see why people are annoyed? I'm annoyed at having to explain this, but I'm doing it with hopes that perhaps you are actually sincere in wanting to learn and genuinely made a mistake.

 

[glo]

Wow. I'm a "troll broad", a "tom dick and herbert schmuck face" and what else? Vitriol is very easily produced here it seems. What I've heard so far is defensive, angry and hateful retorts to my posts.

Okay, whatever we are making of this new member, there is really no need to use offensive language. And - if I am not mistaken - it is against forum rules too.

I suggest we refrain from using insulting language (especially since it may add to giving Islam a bad name) and leave it to the mods to deal with this new member fairly.

Bornagain, you might want to spend a little time reading already existing forum posts and getting the feel for this forum, if you want to remain a member. You are certainly not giving the impression of somebody who is genuinely interested is building a fair and open picture of Islam ...

Right so, now I am reporting my own post for the attention of our mods. Salaam :thankyou:

 

[sister herb]

Peace with you

Bornagain; now calm a little please. In this forum are severeal non-muslims, have been years and non of them never felt we muslims try to convert them by force. So calm down there. We have nothing against you. Muslims are very peaceful persons.

 

[Samiun]

How would you like me to answer, Samiun? And where am I "trash talking" about Islam? The reactions on this forum to my posts is very revealing of the mind set of some on here who are apparently Muslim. "Wanting to see "us" react in a hateful manner"? Did I have to wait at all for that to show up? As far as "not answering questions", so far as I can see there are none for me to answer, just mine that don't get answered.

This is where you trash talked about Islam:

Much has been said, on various websites, about Muslims desire for a world wide caliphate under which all would necessarily convert to Islam or be dhimmis and live as 2nd class citizens under protective treaties that may or may not be honored. (Or at the worst, convert or die) There is known persecution of Christians in Muslim countries. Articles are available that tell of torture, imprisonment and death for Christians who refuse to convert or for those who convert to Christianity from Islam.

You make it sound like Muslims are the worse people on Earth that would kill someone(which is not true, it is not allowed it our religion doing so is against our Islamic beliefs) if they don't convert. Read-up on the constitution of Madinah and see how Muslims really rule over a country you can find it here http://www.constitutionofmadina.com/blog/2012/02/22/constitution-of-medina-in-63-articles/

Some excerpt directly from Wiki:

Rights of non-Muslims
The non-Muslims included in the ummah had the following rights:[22]

The security of God is equal for all groups,[23]
Non-Muslim members have equal political and cultural rights as Muslims. They will have autonomy and freedom of religion.[24]
Non-Muslims will take up arms against the enemy of the Ummah and share the cost of war. There is to be no treachery between the two.[25]
Non-Muslims will not be obliged to take part in religious wars of the Muslims.[26]

This is where you didn't respond to some of the member's questions:

Answer these first, please: Are you serious? Or are you trying to start trouble?

If you're serious I will proceed to answer the question, in shaa Allah but only after I get an answer from you.

Thank you.

Firstly I don't know who you've been speaking to or what websites you've been visiting but going on the assumptions you've made in the other thread "Why the violence?" it seems that you've got a very negative image of Islaam?

If anyone is forcing people to convert or oppressing them due to their choice of religion that is clearly wrong and unacceptable. Whoever is doing this is committing oppression and doing it out of a wrong understanding of Islam.

If you look into the history of Islam you will find many incidents where Jews and Christians were allowed to live in Muslim countries under peace and protection.

Unfortunately the media is quick to find stories of oppression against non Muslims and make big news of it and try to make it sound like it is the norm when it isn't.

They are also very slow to report many stories of oppression against Muslims by non Muslims which is a bit sad and disappointing.

 

[Cabdullahi]

Why do some westerners force 'western secular democracy' upon those who want to do things their own way, in the their own back yard, and when those people implement their own system why do some westerners get angry and say that place is doomed? why does it matter what they choose?

Why do some westerners champion 'western secular democracy' but are the best of buddies with the worst of dictators and sell arms to them to suppress and eventually kill their own people?

 

[glo]

In this forum are several non-Muslims, have been years and non of them never felt we Muslims try to convert them by force.

Yep, I can bear witness to that.

Apart from that time when I was held hostage for three months on only dry bread and water ... and forced to listen to Qu'ranic recitations for hours every day ... and only escaped by craftily hiding behind a niqab ... nobody has ever tried to forcibly convert me to Islam! ;D

 

[sister herb]

To glo

 

[glo]

Much has been said, on various websites, about Muslims desire for a world wide caliphate under which all would necessarily convert to Islam or be dhimmis and live as 2nd class citizens under protective treaties that may or may not be honored. (Or at the worst, convert or die) There is known persecution of Christians in Muslim countries. Articles are available that tell of torture, imprisonment and death for Christians who refuse to convert or for those who convert to Christianity from Islam. How is it said then that Islam is a peaceful religion which honors human life? (Someone said that on another thread)

Bornagain, I may have been a bit flippant in my previous post, but I have given your post some thought.

No doubt there are Muslims who hope for or even work towards a world wide caliphate. Some Muslims I have spoken to feel that this would be a fairer and more tolerant society, in which Muslims and non-Muslims could live peacefully and harmoniously side by side.
I don't think forcing anybody to accept Islam comes into that - so any Muslims which hold to the principle of forcing non-Muslims to become Muslim would be in the minority.
Indeed, Islam teaches that we are free to choose our religion, that Allah guides whom he wills and that one should only accept Islam for ONE reason - namely that one believes it to be the truth!

Now, that's not to say that there are not cases across the world where people have been and are forced to convert to Islam … but it you listen carefully to the Muslim world, you will see that such practices are not condoned and are spoken out against.

Equally you hear stories of non-Muslim (even Christian) families who kill any family members who have converted to Islam … and call it honour killing! imsad

Some Christians also use very unpleasant methods to coerce non-Christians to Christianity …
After all, do not some Christians believe that we have to make converts of all nations before Jesus returns again?
Did you know that the relationships between (mostly Coptic) Christians and Muslims in some Middle Eastern countries are severely compromised and put under threat, because Western Christians have come and used such heavy-handed conversion methods, that the longstanding harmony between the two faiths is threatened?

I am saying all this because I want to make the point that in their zeal and passion for their beliefs, people in both our faiths make bad mistakes and cause serious damage.

What can we do about it?
I suggest that both Muslims and Christians work together and agree to fight for justice and religious freedom in their own faith communities.
Rather than point the finger at the other religion and complain and judge, perhaps we should scrutinise our own behaviours first?

God's blessings to you.

 

[Abz2000]

My question is, why do some evangelists and Mossad trolls have to lie and constantly deceive in order to subvert the masses?
We had one called burning light who came and pretended he was interested in learning, and everyone did their very best to answer his questions, then began to show his true intentions, I only stopped responding to him after one of the mods told me he had been banned under a different account.

For the information of any visitor who may visit this thread (I won't bother to humour you),
I want to see a worldwide caliphate where justice is done and God - not bush, Cheney or Obama - is the lawgiver (ruler/king, and caliph means caretaker/someone who takes responsibility on another's behalf/ successor/ the next in command.

And I want it even more because I read about it in the Bible, yes that's right, the new testament,
Let us all clasp our hands together and pray, (we don't call God father because it's meaningless as he needs no spouse or kids - so i'll rephrase it
In this manner Let us pray:

Our Lord who art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name,
THY KINGDOME COME
THY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH
EVEN AS IT IS IN HEAVEN
.....
FOR YOURS IS THE KINGDOM, and the power and the glory forever,
Ameen.

And btw, im not going to bother answering your RHETORICAL "question" about freedom of religion, the bible tells you to break all the idols and kill all the cattle and women and children,
how come you feel you're even in a position to ask us about freedom of religion?

 

['Abd-al Latif]

I've breezed through this thread and I have a message for the original poster: there are etiquettes to a discussion which you need to observe if you are to get anywhere. If you want to learn about Islam then learn Islam through Muslims: the people who actually believe in and practise Islam. It doesn't make sense to learn Islam through someone who isn't a Muslim but still insists upon telling you all sorts of rubbish.

If you genuinely seek answers then there are many on this board who will answer your questions. If however you're seeking an argument then you'll be shown the door. From that point none will be blamed but you so you are advised to speak and discuss respectfully. You've been given a chance so don't raise any complaints later about unfair treatment if you get banned.

For the Muslim members I advise you with the saying of the Messenger :saws:: "It is not befitting that a believer curses."

Furthermore, Allah describes those who will inherit al-firdaws as those who do not speak "al-laghw" (i.e no foul speech will be heard of them – ever).


Behave.

 

[Independent]

I have a few questions relating to this. As I understand it, the last Caliphate was disbanded in 1924 by Kemal Ataturk. What's to stop it being reinstated, in Turkey or elsewhere? Also, by what process would a Caliph be chosen? Is it a single person? How is it decided which countries would be included within the Caliphate? Does it have to just one Caliphate or is it permitted to have a number? And if such an international institution were to be created today, how would it interact with current governments? Which powers would be held by the Caliph, and which by national governments?

 

[جوري]

Ideally if a caliphate is established in shaa Allah- It should be modeled after Ar'rashudoon. Read a bit about Umar Ibn Ilkhtaab and it will give you a clue on how it is supposed be..

 

[Abz2000]

This is what the enemy of Allah, Cheney said:

MARK COLVIN: The United States Vice President, Dick Cheney, says Australia has a duty to stay on in Iraq to protect its own long-term security.

This afternoon he met the Labor leader Kevin Rudd who has the opposite view. He argues that Australia needs its troops closer to its own regional trouble spots.

But Dick Cheney says if the US and its allies are defeated in Baghdad, the consequences would be a victory for jihadists who would spread out to the rest of Iraq and then to Afghanistan.

The Vice President says terrorists aim to create a caliphate stretching from Spain, across North Africa, through the Middle East and South Asia, to Indonesia and beyond. ....


Thereby proving that their war is against the foundations of Islam and not the lies and different excuses they use every time they come under criticism.
You caaually said that it can just be done again, bypassing the fact that attaturk was just a puppet.
It is a fact that Muslims the world over are working to re-establish it and the US government fears loss of its pretended authority, like Pharaoh feared that God might take over his "kingdom".

All countries under the caliphate would be run by governors and those beneath them, with the governor answerable to the caliph and the caliph answerable to God, if the caliph oversteps his authority and assumes a tyranny, the people's duty is to pull him down.

The caliphate would be obliged to respond to humiliation of Muslims in any land unless that Muslim refused to join the believers and live under the rule of God, and purposefully remained in a non Muslim land with no good excuse.

If a single Muslim sister's honour is attacked, the whole nation may be mobilised to ensure justice is done and to prevent a future repeat, as it was with Banu Qainuqa and caliph mu'tasim billah,
My parents' motherland Sylhet was liberated in a similar fashion (google shah jalal al Yemeni)

Also under the caliphate, every child received a stipend from the day he/she was born.
this was while Europe was still unfamiliar with the idea of a weekly bath, let alone a daily one lol.
Peace

 

[Independent]

You casually said that it can just be done again, bypassing the fact that attaturk was just a puppet.

No, I genuinely don't know anything about the practicalities of how this works. How can anyone judge if it's a good or a bad thing if they don't know what it is?

Anyway, i will follow the link posted above later today, when i Have some time.

 

[Bornagain]

I've breezed through this thread and I have a message for the original poster: there are etiquettes to a discussion which you need to observe if you are to get anywhere. If you want to learn about Islam then learn Islam through Muslims: the people who actually believe in and practise Islam. It doesn't make sense to learn Islam through someone who isn't a Muslim but still insists upon telling you all sorts of rubbish.

If you genuinely seek answers then there are many on this board who will answer your questions. If however you're seeking an argument then you'll be shown the door. From that point none will be blamed but you so you are advised to speak and discuss respectfully. You've been given a chance so don't raise any complaints later about unfair treatment if you get banned.

For the Muslim members I advise you with the saying of the Messenger :saws:: "It is not befitting that a believer curses."

Furthermore, Allah describes those who will inherit al-firdaws as those who do not speak "al-laghw" (i.e no foul speech will be heard of them – ever).


Behave.

If you are addressing me (the original poster of this thread please tell me where I've been "disrespectful". I've asked questions that are, at least to my mind as a non-Muslim, vital to understanding why Muslims believe as they do. In my very first post, I said that I came here to get a more balanced view of Islam than what I am seeing/hearing on tv and other media. I have been met with accusations, vilification and taunts. I do not see anything disrespectful in my posts so please, enlighten me. I have more than once been threatened or had it asked that I be banned. For what? If the questions I've asked are not answered how can I know anything but what I've already heard/read in other sources? I've also been told through posts that this thread is not the place to have the questions answered, yet the name of the thread certainly gives the impression that it is. I am not apologetic for my questions. I am not bent on "making trouble". I do not understand why that is even thought of my posts. So there you have it.

 

[Hulk]

Amazing..


May I ask, why you didn't ask these question but instead answered them on your own?

1) DO Muslims want world domination?
2) How are non-muslims treated according to Sharia?
3) DO muslims force people into converting?

 

[جوري]

1) DO Muslims want world domination?
2) How are non-muslims treated according to Sharia?
3) DO muslims force people into converting?

It isn't loaded enough to elicit the desired reaction. Be that as it may I had unsubscribed from this debacle but found your simple and to the point post refreshing I had to comment with a kudos..

 

[Tyrion]

I see little reason to doubt the sincerity of the OP. Sure, she could be a troll, but such questions and beliefs are held by many people, no matter how incorrect we know them to be. Assume she is asking honest questions, and give honest answers. Some people have only ever heard of Islam through anti Islamic sources, usually through little fault of their own. By responding with attacks and insults we only drive them away from actually learning and reinforce negative stereotypes of Muslims. This forum probably isn't the place for this though, as the OP has probably already realized.

The short answer to your questions would have to be that Islam promotes peace, but it's the Muslims who fail to follow it. It's a generic answer, but also one that I think holds a lot of truth. The same phenomena can be seen in other religions throughout history, where violence, prejudice, and even attempts at world domination are all done in the name of God. Christianity, as I'm sure you're aware, was no different. We just happen to live in a time where the spotlight is on Islam, and where many Muslims live in impoverished lands, under oppressive rule and occupation, and lack education. If you do some searching, you'll find that most Muslims don't want world domination, and that they're fair and amiable to people of all faiths.That's my simplistic take on it anyway.

EDIT: Also, to those who are getting upset... Keep in mind that many Muslims, even those here, only know of other religions through Islamic sources, which typically don't do a great job describing what believers actually believe. For example, there are tons of instances here where Muslims insist on telling our Christian members what they believe, making no effort to actually understand their religion... It's probably a better idea to be more forgiving when it comes to people's misconceptions.

 

[Futuwwa]

If you are addressing me (the original poster of this thread please tell me where I've been "disrespectful". I've asked questions that are, at least to my mind as a non-Muslim, vital to understanding why Muslims believe as they do. In my very first post, I said that I came here to get a more balanced view of Islam than what I am seeing/hearing on tv and other media. I have been met with accusations, vilification and taunts. I do not see anything disrespectful in my posts so please, enlighten me. I have more than once been threatened or had it asked that I be banned. For what? If the questions I've asked are not answered how can I know anything but what I've already heard/read in other sources? I've also been told through posts that this thread is not the place to have the questions answered, yet the name of the thread certainly gives the impression that it is. I am not apologetic for my questions. I am not bent on "making trouble". I do not understand why that is even thought of my posts. So there you have it.

If you truly want to understand, you should not premise the entire thread on a bunch of assumptions about what we Muslims believe. Nor ask people to answer for the worst things some Muslims do.