Worship if Muhammud?

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Hi cheese,
Thankyou for your post.
If you dont like that author, theres more you know, are we to assume theyre all wanton forgers?
Also, i would like to commend you for attitude and your posts, it is a good thing to see in one of your years.

Respectfully, Papa.
 
Cheese, sorry if it seemed as if I respected your responses less than any other. To the contrary, my entire statement was to say that despite the overwhelming argument that you present, in it's well presented and thought out manner, I cannot accept it or any other persons opinion as proof. I would like to comment that the knowledge that you presented, and the respectful way that you treat others would have lead me to believe you were someone much older.
 
As for our love of Muhammad (salallahu 'alayhi wa sallam), this is not idolozing and/or worshiping him. The sole purpose of our love to him is because he is God's messenger. We love him because he is someone that God sent as a mercy to humankind to explain God and God's revealed way. So the reason we love him is because we love God and God's message.
And of course we don't praise him more than we praise God Himself. For instance, we say, after mentioning his name, "may God's peace and blessing be upon him." We never go beyond that and pray to him or something similar to that.
But we praise God as often as we can and say things like: "Glory be to my Lord, the Most High." These two things can't even be compared, let alone be equal (not to mention that the "worship" of Muhammed would be greater than the worship of God by Muslims).
So we love him only for the sake of God.
However, there are some Muslims that do go beyond that, but they can't be considered as Muslims (in general, however some people do this because of ignorance and we can't say all of them are non-Muslims). For instance, some people go to his grave and pray to him (there are guards at the grave who's job is to prevent this) and some people even claim that when Muhammed (salallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) was created, God took some of His light and created him from it. This is wrong and very dangerous. He was a normal human being, sent by God and the reason we love him is for the sake of God. We love everything about God and we love His messengers. This isn't idolizing or worshiping.

As for PAPA LAZAROU's question:

Thats quite a fair comment you have made, though perhaps there is a qualifier. I am not linking to sites of an anti islamic nature, I only quote from the books of Islam. Do you agree that to say that the authors of Sirat Rasul Allah were falsifying some material (the bits judged by todays standards as wrong) but not others (the bits that are ok by todays standards) in its defence is a bit beyond reasoning? The book is held in the highest regard among muslims as the best chronicle of Mohammed, written even before hadith.
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You have to understand the nature of the book by ibn Ishaq. Nobody has ever claimed that it is 100% authentic. There are some authentic narrations and some week ones. There are even some made up ones. He only collected a lot of narrations and nobody ever claimed that all of them are authentic and should be relied on. There are even some scholars of the past (like Malik ibn Anas I believe) that severely criticized the authenticity of the book.
 
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Papa.

But critics may have an objection: if these stories are false, then why they are mentioned in Islamic references in the first place? In response, we have earlier shown the position of learned Muslim scholars toward these references in the biographies, whose authors used to relate hundreds of reports without checking them or relying on serious criticism. These particular stories even proved their unscientific methodology because they are reported without isnâd at all. This is extremely irregular of any respectable scholar. Ibn Jarîr At-Tabârî (224-310 A.H.) in his encyclopedic book of history Tarikh Al-Umam wa Al-Mulûk did not give mention of these stories at all despite the fact that he had mentioned far less significant reports in his work.
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Source: http://www.answering-christianity.com/karim/forgeries_about_killing.htm

sorry, i tried to follow the link on the site that had a more detailed expaintaion but the link didnt work. but i guess this could be taken as a summary?
 
Papa, i would really appreciate it if you posted more of the stories you have heard, so we can discuss them. i can assure you that you need not assume that any thing that sounds bad is NOT immediatly thought of as fake story.

I am waiting for your posts. :)

malsidab:

I cannot accept it or any other persons opinion as proof.
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Sorry, i am confused, i dont think what i gave you was opinion, it was based on historical records...
 
Hi there cheese,
Thankyou for your willingness to discuss issues openly.

heres another one, a hadith, this time I'm sure you will agree from an undeniably reputable source.

Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it."

So in this one you will see that that the prophet also condones deceit as well as murder.

Respectfully,
Papa.
 
cheese, The problem from my perspective is I have little faith in the ability of men to properly record history. This is what I meant about fabricating stories. Many parts of history throughout the world have been incorrectly recorded for various reasons. Biased accounts of events, sheltered views, propaganda, opinions, etc. I question everything though, please do not feel as if it is only Islam that I question. I even question science until I see the experiment data, proof, etc for myself. Just a natural skeptic.
 
malsidab said:
cheese, The problem from my perspective is I have little faith in the ability of men to properly record history. This is what I meant about fabricating stories. Many parts of history throughout the world have been incorrectly recorded for various reasons. Biased accounts of events, sheltered views, propaganda, opinions, etc. I question everything though, please do not feel as if it is only Islam that I question. I even question science until I see the experiment data, proof, etc for myself. Just a natural skeptic.
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i totally understand, agree and think that way too! but perhaps not to your extent, and ive read about the method of how the narrations of the prophet were recorded and they seem pretty good.. maybe (if you are interested) you might look them up, beucase i dont see how you can learn/believe anything if you dont beleive that the hadith are accurate/true.
 
Papa, you have posted exactly the story that i thought and hoped you might, and i would liek to present you with a discussion of this hadith.

here is the article: http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/rebuttal_to_silas_2.htm

i know it is very long, you can skip about half of it (you will know what to skip when you get there).

I will summaries it here for you:
1. This occured during a time of war.
2. The two paragraphs that summarise the page best:

Just like Ka’b incited people to fight the prophet Muhammad, telling them to kill him and so on. The prophet returned the favor, just like Ka’b told people to fight Muhammad and kill him, the prophet Muhammad told the Muslims who would go fight and kill Ka’b. Had Ka’b directly went and tried to kill the prophet, the prophet would then directly go and kill Ka’b. However so, Ka’b told others to go kill Muhammad and to fight him, after the prophet Muhammad found out, he told the Muslims who would go fight and kill Ka’b.

So as we see, Ka’b the hypocrite was the one who started all the problems, for himself, and for the Muslims. The prophet Muhammad did not have Ka’b killed because he insulted the prophet or the Muslims, the prophet had Ka’b killed because Ka’b was instigating others to kill Muhammad. He was rightly punished for that crime; Ka’b was not an innocent man by any means. Once you go instigate violence, hatred, and murder against God’s prophet, you are bound to get punished. Ka’b the hypocrite brought this upon himself.
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i think the most imprtant part to read would be that part with the heading: THE KILLING OF KA’B B. AL-SHRAF, THE JEW

I hope that helps you understand the issue more.
 
Hi Abu Zakariya,
So we can only discuss this in arabic. no disrespect, but thats the lamest excuse ive heard! surely it can be read, and be made sense of! does the arabic say he ordered a murder, or not?! This is just a bizzarre get out clause that makes no sense.

Respectfully,
Papa.
 
thats a good idea cheese, i wouldnt like to disuade from this topic.
Could you start it, as i have limited status.
thanks, papa.
 
Hi malsidab,
The Prophet Muhammad pbuh also warned us of exaggerating in praise for him and repeatedly emphasized that he was a human being. Nevertheless, out of all human beings it is true that we love the Prophet Muhammad pbuh the most as he is the greatest example for us of the highest standard of moral conduct.
 
malsibad,
To add to what bro Ansar said above, given that the prophet pbuh is an example for us, so naturally he would need to the best human being and we could not have doubts of this becuase if our example was not the most perfect human then how can we have faith in appling his sunnah (example)?
 
Greetings,
cheese said:
malsibad,
To add to what bro Ansar said above, given that the prophet pbuh is an example for us, so naturally he would need to the best human being and we could not have doubts of this becuase if our example was not the most perfect human then how can we have faith in appling his sunnah (example)?
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Precisely!

It sounds like you have doubts...

Peace
 
czgibson said:
Greetings,


Precisely!

It sounds like you have doubts...

Peace
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WHAT?? are you saying I have doubts?? me??:? :rollseyes

what makes you think that? i have no doubt at all that the prophet pbuh was the perfect example for man kind, and the perfect person with whom God swt could place his message.

Please explain why you think i have these doubts..

and if you were not refering to me... my bad :D
 
Greetings cheese,
cheese said:
Please explain why you think i have these doubts..

and if you were not refering to me... my bad :D
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I was referring to you. :)

It seems to me that your logic is back to front on this question. You don't say "Muhammad (pbuh) was the most perfect human being, therefore we should follow his example", but "We follow his example, therefore he must have been the most perfect human being." Can you see the difference?

It seems from your words that following Islam is something that's been imposed on you, rather than something you've adopted because you find it reasonable.

Peace
 
hi Czgibson

Muhammad (PBUH) is actually the messenger of Allah (God) so thats why we follow HIM HE (PBUH) is a perfect human bcoz our LORD said to us through HIM
 

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