Wrong to attack non-Muslims

[IAmZamzam]

And equally in theory, if everyone made a better effort not to litter, we would have a much cleaner world. But that doesn't change the fact our own personal decisions and words on the matter are not enough to change the fact of the thing. Everyone should stand up for what's right, but everyone should also recognize that at no point, at least before judgment day, are the great people in the wrong going to be a problem we realistically have any way of solving, at least as powerless everyday individuals with our own problems to work out. You have an issue with these people, be an activist. And see what good it does you.

 

[Grace Seeker]

And equally in theory, if everyone made a better effort not to litter, we would have a much cleaner world.

Indeed, Canada is cleaner than the USA for exactly this reason. I don't believe we are powerless. We have the power to effect our world, each one of us. Maybe not the whole, but that part in which we live. Either we are part of the solution or part of the problem. Which part have you decided to be?

 

[glo]

I take it you didn't see this article on CNN: http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/v...7/exp.nr.blocking.funeral.protestors.cnn.html


But the big thing to do is to speak up when someone, anyone uses hate speech or condones the use of violence in our presence. If we could win all these little one-on-one battles in our own communities, each of us with our own neighbors, there wouldn't be anyone for the likes of Phelps, Jones, or any other madman to recruit.

Indeed, Canada is cleaner than the USA for exactly this reason. I don't believe we are powerless. We have the power to effect our world, each one of us. Maybe not the whole, but that part in which we live. Either we are part of the solution or part of the problem. Which part have you decided to be?

I agree, Grace Seeker.

Sometimes the tasks might seem too great, the adversity too powerful and our own strength too feeble - but we should never give up striving to make a difference in the world.
However little and insignificant it may seem to us, if enough people join the cause the effect will be enormous!

A wise man once said: "Be the change you want to see in the world."

 

[tango92]

Nope, it was a clear video, no blurring. What's the problem? Muslims on this board admit there are extremists out there so why dismiss the evidence? What's dodgy about that article?

sister harb- I'm not the only one one this board talking about extremists.

what you call extreme others may not do. evidence is only evidence if youve seen it yourself. otherwise your just buying into somebody pushing their own agenda. so many times you see criminals potos shown on the news and they look horrendous. im not condoning them, but it shows you the news groups are out to give people what they want to see.

that article is dodgy, because i was expecting to see a video. if you can find the video it would be helpful.

 

[IAmZamzam]

Indeed, Canada is cleaner than the USA for exactly this reason. I don't believe we are powerless. We have the power to effect our world, each one of us. Maybe not the whole, but that part in which we live. Either we are part of the solution or part of the problem. Which part have you decided to be?

Since 99.9999% of us have the choice of either being such a miniscule part of the problem as not to really affect it at all or such a miniscule part of the solution so as not to really affect it at all, I hardly see how it even matters which I am. God will end the world, one way or another, exactly when He must.

 

[LauraS]

what you call extreme others may not do. evidence is only evidence if youve seen it yourself. otherwise your just buying into somebody pushing their own agenda. so many times you see criminals potos shown on the news and they look horrendous. im not condoning them, but it shows you the news groups are out to give people what they want to see.

that article is dodgy, because i was expecting to see a video. if you can find the video it would be helpful.

Just because you were expecting a video doesn't make the article dodgy, it even contains a quote from British Muslims. I wouldn't be able to find the video, it was on the news a year or two ago. In fact I've seen a couple. In one he was preaching in the street.

 

[GuestFellow]

Just because you were expecting a video doesn't make the article dodgy, it even contains a quote from British Muslims. I wouldn't be able to find the video, it was on the news a year or two ago. In fact I've seen a couple. In one he was preaching in the street.

It is not conclusive is it? There is too much speculation.

I agree there are Muslims that wish to harm others. For example, I remember a student, reverted to Islam, was planning to attack mall but failed. It occurred last year and was discussed on this forum. I will see if I can find it.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Since 99.9999% of us have the choice of either being such a miniscule part of the problem as not to really affect it at all or such a miniscule part of the solution so as not to really affect it at all, I hardly see how it even matters which I am. God will end the world, one way or another, exactly when He must.

OK. You win. You've convinced me. There is precious little I can do to make the world a better place. So, next time I see/hear someone start using racial epiteths, resort to ethnic stereotypes or say that all Muslims are terrorists, I won't challenge them. There is precious little I could do, and even if I did change one mind, what difference would that really make in the world. On your recommendation, I'll just ignore them and continue on my way. God's going to figure it all out in the end anyway, no point in me getting involved along the way.

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Edit: You think I still got time to put through a stop payment on that check I wrote to Muslim Aid?

 

[tango92]

Just because you were expecting a video doesn't make the article dodgy, it even contains a quote from British Muslims. I wouldn't be able to find the video, it was on the news a year or two ago. In fact I've seen a couple. In one he was preaching in the street.

the problem is "a quote". often i see news pick up lines and sentences and then present them in such a way as to make a mockery of the person or to change their meanings entirely. if you havent got the vid we have nothing left 2 discuss.
but one thing, do you believe news groups are completely unbiased?

 

[GuestFellow]

^ It is pretty sick for individuals to celebrate 9/11. I wonder how these individuals would feel if their families had been killed in that attack.

 

[IAmZamzam]

OK. You win. You've convinced me. There is precious little I can do to make the world a better place. So, next time I see/hear someone start using racial epiteths, resort to ethnic stereotypes or say that all Muslims are terrorists, I won't challenge them. There is precious little I could do, and even if I did change one mind, what difference would that really make in the world. On your recommendation, I'll just ignore them and continue on my way. God's going to figure it all out in the end anyway, no point in me getting involved along the way.

-------------------

Edit: You think I still got time to put through a stop payment on that check I wrote to Muslim Aid?

Just because it's supremely unlikely that you can do anything that affects history or even current events doesn't mean that you can't affect your own self for the better, or possibly a few people here and there. My problem is certainly not with ethics but with that "any one person can make a difference" B.S. It's ignorance at best and a severe case of being in denial at worst.

 

[IAmZamzam]

You seem to seek a certain type of news, and you've come to the right place to get a better picture!

Probably, but it really isn't necessary for those of us living in America to seek anything at all since the news media has for at least a decade or so made quite a deliberate point of focusing their hatemongering almost exclusively on Muslims. Every generation needs a bogeyman in the media or else the news theoretically won't sell as well or something, and it's easy enough to make said bogeyman out of any party needed much more by selectively deciding what to report than by reporting it with biased insinuations or fabrications, although those happen as well. In my parents' generation it was Communists; today it's Muslims; in Victorian times it was pornographers. I wonder what poor people will be the next victims.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Just because it's supremely unlikely that you can do anything that affects history or even current events doesn't mean that you can't affect your own self for the better, or possibly a few people here and there. My problem is certainly not with ethics but with that "any one person can make a difference" B.S. It's ignorance at best and a severe case of being in denial at worst.

I still think it comes down to the Edmund Burk quote. We make a mistake when we think that making a difference is something that can only be done by "others". I really do believe that any one person can make a difference.

Making a Difference

An old man was strolling along a beach one day. In the distance he saw a young boy and girl reach down, pick something up and throw it back into the sea.

Drawing nearer, he saw that the sand was littered with thousands of small stranded sand dollars. The children were patiently picking them up, one at a time, and returning them to safety below the water.

"What are you doing?" he asked.

"Saving sand dollars," replied the children as they continued about the job at hand.

The old man, somewhat jaded by age, thought the children's actions were futile.

"But the beach is littered with dying sand dollars. What possible difference can you make by doing this?"

The young girl bent over, picked up another, and threw it with all her might. With a plop the sand dollar sank safely below the water. Then, turning to the old man, she said with all the wisdom of a child:

"I made a difference for that one."

Making a difference doesn't have to mean changing the entire world, it can also mean changing one person's world. We don't accomplish that by throwing up our hands in surrender.

 

[IAmZamzam]

I still think it comes down to the Edmund Burk quote. We make a mistake when we think that making a difference is something that can only be done by "others". I really do believe that any one person can make a difference.

If the person is extremely lucky. Their own efforts only count for so much. It's really up to God, not us, and He gives the power of massive, widespread change of any sort only to the remotest few "others". To accept this is not to be pessimistic or lazy any more than it is pessimistic or lazy to accept how low our chances of winning the lottery are. It's just common sense issues of odds.

Making a difference doesn't have to mean changing the entire world, it can also mean changing one person's world.

Which is pretty much what I've just told you. If I didn't think there was any chance or point at all in helping individual people then I wouldn't be a da'i, would I? Although experience has taught that I get through to people much, much, much less often than not, it still happens occasionally, and that's reason enough for me.

 

[Woodrow]

Please Everybody stay on topic. This is not a thread about how some non-Muslims treat us. It is about how we are to treat non-Muslims.

 

[LauraS]

the problem is "a quote". often i see news pick up lines and sentences and then present them in such a way as to make a mockery of the person or to change their meanings entirely. if you havent got the vid we have nothing left 2 discuss.
but one thing, do you believe news groups are completely unbiased?

Of course they aren't, but then that works the other way too. If the Muslim community itself has spoken out against Omar Bakri then, again, I still don't see why you don't want to believe him to be an extremist.

 

[tango92]

Of course they aren't, but then that works the other way too. If the Muslim community itself has spoken out against Omar Bakri then, again, I still don't see why you don't want to believe him to be an extremist.

to summarise my points were:

how do we define extreme?
i dont trust the media as much as some people do

and my last point:
i dont really care what the muslims in the pockets of politicians have to say either.

finally, before i accuse my brother of an extremely terrible crime i would want to examine evidence from multiple sources. as you could not find the video i propose we end this discussion.

and i cant be bothered to do it myself, nor can i be bothered even googling his name. which begs the question why did i even join this thread?

 

[LauraS]

Extreme would be advocating and condoning killing in the name of your religion in my opinion.

So now Muslim opinions must be dismissed if they don't suit your own?

If you can't be bothered to find evidence then you can't be so defensive over the idea this Omar Bakri might be violent.

But yeah, I'm getting bored too.

 

[tango92]

Extreme would be advocating and condoning killing in the name of your religion in my opinion.

so this is a good discussion point. perhaps you could start a new thread, or will i have to do the honours?

So now Muslim opinions must be dismissed if they don't suit your own?

i had initially simply stated skpeticism over the authenticity/honesty/integrity of bbc and the rest regarding who they label "extremist". im not saying this guy is a great muslim. but it would be hypocritical of me to blindly follow the majority when we are always telling the non muslims to not believe everything they see in the media.

If you can't be bothered to find evidence then you can't be so defensive over the idea this Omar Bakri might be violent.

i can do, in Islam we are told to verify what we hear. but since i dont really care at this moment in time i refuse to label him one way or another.

But yeah, I'm getting bored too.

watch some news? lol

need teh more characters

 

[Ramadhan]

Extreme would be advocating and condoning killing in the name of your religion in my opinion.

How about advocating and condoning killings in the name of democracy? or in the name of anti-terrorism? or in the name of peace? or in the name of security threat?
Can we define that as extreme as well?