Wrong to attack non-Muslims

[GuestFellow]

Of course they aren't, but then that works the other way too. If the Muslim community itself has spoken out against Omar Bakri then, again, I still don't see why you don't want to believe him to be an extremist.

What evidence is there that he is an ''extremist?''

Profile: Omar Bakri Mohammad

There is a video of them. Check at the top right side of the article, it will say Watch Omar Bakri Mohammad's interview. It is not much of an interview. He said that Muslims in England lived in peace but the war against terror pushed Muslims in the wrong direction and does not believe that Osama is behind the 9/11 attacks.

^ What is so bad about this?

In fact, I doubt Osama is behind 9/11 attacks as well. He has not been charged behind these attacks, according to the FBI website. He is considered to be a suspect for ''other terrorist attacks around the world.''

FBI

Extreme would be advocating and condoning killing in the name of your religion in my opinion.

So the term extremist applies only to Muslims? Why use the term extremist? Are there not any other terms to describe such people? Why repeat phrases you hear on the news like parrots? It is a propaganda term in my opinion, it does not reveal why people commit a crime to begin with.

 

[Perseveranze]

You shoud know that if anyone hurt or killed an innocent on purpose "in the name of Allah", is pretty clearly identified in the Koran as a hypocrite.

“Surely the hypocrites strive to deceive Allah, and He shall requite their deceit to them, and when they stand up to prayer they stand up sluggishly; they do it only to be seen of men and do not remember Allah save a little. ”

(The Women 4.142)


"The Hypocrites enjoin what is forbidden, and forbid what Islam commands. They withhold their hands (from spending in Allah's Cause [Jihad]). They have forgotten Allah so He has forgotten them. Verily the Hypocrites are oblivious, rebellious and perverse." (Quran 9:16)

 

[Beardo]

I find it very irritating how people hate on non-Muslims and start using "kaafir" as a cuss word. That's why they repel from us and our religion. Be kind, accept them for who they are, and treat them with kindness. And pray that they be guided to The Truth. It's as simple as that. If they insist on their own opinion, don't start a useless debate knowing well that they will only be persistent. Give your opinion, give them time, and let them ponder over it. Done deal.

 

[Watcher888]

Five Muslim boys and white girl, all 12, excluded over Facebook death threats to classmate who supported British troops
By Claire Elicott
Last updated at 9:01 AM on 18th November 2010


A 13-year-old boy who penned an online Remembrance Day tribute to Britain’s fallen soldiers was subjected to a vicious hate campaign by fellow pupils.
A gang of 12-year-old pupils made up of five Muslim boys and one non-Muslim girl made death threats to Darius Gill involving knives and knuckle-dusters because of his support for British troops.
One member of the gang also posted a picture of himself holding a rifle and threatened to hijack a plane.

Darius Gill and his mother Clare Allington: She pulled her son out of school after he received death threats on Facebook
The campaign was backed by more pupils belonging to a self-styled ‘Muslim Defence League’ celebrating British deaths in Afghanistan.
The abuse was so serious that police are now investigating.
On November 11, Darius – whose father is Asian – wrote on Facebook: ‘RIP to all the lads who never made it home.’
He also posted two pictures showing British troops on Armistice Day.
He was then branded ‘racist’ and two of the accused pupils began a flurry of online messages to each other setting out what they were going to do to him.

Threats: The Facebook page of one of the bullies
One wrote to Darius on Facebook criticising him for failing to acknowledge the dead *Muslim soldiers in the Middle East.
Darius explained that Remembrance Day honoured British troops and pointed out that he was paying tribute to his great-great uncle, who died aged only 17 on the first day of the Battle of the Somme in 1916.
The students attend the 1,250-pupil Sidney Stringer Academy in Coventry. Muslim pupils make up 65 per cent of the school, which caters for children aged 11-18.
The main six pupils, none of whom can be named for legal reasons, have now been suspended and may be expelled over their chilling threats.
One of the online messages – which were littered with spelling mistakes – read: ‘Fight on Monday gonna be heavy knuckle dusters and knifes hopefully I don’t die.’
Another pupil added: ‘ill bang [attack] him ma slef [myself] am a terrorist.’

The children were excluded from the Sidney Stringer Academy in Coventry following the Facebook bullying campaign
One pupil’s Facebook profile is full of chilling references to Islamic fundamentalism and shows a *picture of him posing with an AK47 rifle.
He also penned a terrifying poem about hijacking a plane.
On November 12, he wrote: ‘You better watch what the **** flies outta ya mouth. Or I’ma hijack a plane and fly it into your house.
‘Burn your apartment with your family tied to the couch. And slit your throat, so when you scream, only blood comes out.’
More.
Other pupils from the Muslim Defence League added comments condemning Darius.
Fortunately, Darius’s mother Clare Allington read the comments on her son’s Facebook page on Monday morning – the day of the promised attack – and immediately pulled her son out of school.
Yesterday, Mrs Allington, 42, a mature student from Coventry, said: ‘I logged on and it broke my heart. I was reading all sorts about knuckle-dusters, knives and death.
‘They were planning to attack him at school that day so I rang the school straight away.’

Patriotic: But Darius Gill now says he feels scared to wear a poppy in future because of the vicious abuse
She added that she usually keeps an eye on her son’s posts on Facebook every day but had not done so last weekend. She only read them on Monday.
She added: ‘If I hadn’t read the threats and pulled my son out of school he could be dead.
‘They might just be schoolchildren but they are fanatical and dangerous. The threats have to be taken seriously.’
Even yesterday, one of the yobs bragged about being quizzed by police and continued his online threats to attack Darius. He wrote: ‘Im in trouble wiv de police cuz of susspician of threat to Darius ... Im banggin Darius Thursday.’
He goes on to say he wants a one-on-one fight and demands that no one defends Darius.
Yesterday Darius said he was now too frightened to wear a poppy and claims he has been picked on at school because he is not Muslim.
Mrs Allington added: ‘My son wrote supporting the British troops in Afghanistan and also said he was sad so many soldiers had died.
‘The so-called Muslim Defence League, which has been set up in the school by a number of pupils, believe that Darius should join them in hating British soldiers. It’s appalling and extremely upsetting for Darius.’
Sidney Stringer Academy’s principal, Wendy Thomas, said Facebook was an increasing concern for schools. She said the children have been told to remove the comments from the site.
She said: ‘Darius is the victim of bullying. All the students involved have told me they did not mean what they said but they will learn a hard lesson from this.
‘Facebook is a big concern for schools and we urge all parents to monitor what their children say on the site. As soon as the school was notified about the comments on Monday we interviewed the pupils.
‘No weapons were found on any of the pupils. We notified the police and they are investigating.’

 

[Woodrow]

I find it very strange and close to being racist that you begin your post with this introduction

Five Muslim boys and white girl, all 12, ’

Does that automatically mean the girl is not Muslims and all Muslims are non-White. Us Muslims are color blinds and come in every color possible, never noticing the skin pigment of our Brothers and Sisters.

Do you also assume that five 12 year old boys represent all Muslims and are qualified to show the beliefs of Islam?

 

[IAmZamzam]

Just goes to show how wretched the news media is, doesn't it?

 

[Grace Seeker]

I find it very strange and close to being racist that you begin your post with this introduction
Does that automatically mean the girl is not Muslims and all Muslims are non-White. Us Muslims are color blinds and come in every color possible, never noticing the skin pigment of our Brothers and Sisters.

I grant you this first point (though I think you objection may more be with the copy editor who wrote the headline than with Watcher888), but on the second...

Do you also assume that five 12 year old boys represent all Muslims and are qualified to show the beliefs of Islam?

Of course not. Or at least this reader does not. But it is a concern I have as well. I have it in my own neighborhood in which I know of no Muslims, but see other behavior that I would consider outrageous being practiced by 12-year olds. Their behavior is learned behavior and the most obvious source of it is the adult community around them. So, just as I see outrageous behavior practiced by children in my community to be an indictment our myself and my neighbors, I must tell you that the same goes when a 12-year old says things like, " ‘ill bang [attack] him ma slef [myself] am a terrorist." I find myself asking, "Where did he learn such things?" And the answer, for one who likes to believe that Islam is a religion of peace, is rather distressing and raises grave concerns for the future if it isn't nipped in the bud today. But the really scary part is how rather than deal with the main thrust of the article and the issues it raises, I continue to see the Muslim community neglect those issues and try to draw attention to something else.

If nothing else, it shows us that Muslims and non-Muslims do not share a common concern as to what the major issues are that need to be addressed with regard to the nature of relationships between the Muslim and non-Muslim community.

 

[tango92]

I grant you this first point (though I think you objection may more be with the copy editor who wrote the headline than with Watcher888), but on the second...

Of course not. Or at least this reader does not. But it is a concern I have as well. I have it in my own neighborhood in which I know of no Muslims, but see other behavior that I would consider outrageous being practiced by 12-year olds. Their behavior is learned behavior and the most obvious source of it is the adult community around them. So, just as I see outrageous behavior practiced by children in my community to be an indictment our myself and my neighbors, I must tell you that the same goes when a 12-year old says things like, " ‘ill bang [attack] him ma slef [myself] am a terrorist." I find myself asking, "Where did he learn such things?" And the answer, for one who likes to believe that Islam is a religion of peace, is rather distressing and raises grave concerns for the future if it isn't nipped in the bud today. But the really scary part is how rather than deal with the main thrust of the article and the issues it raises, I continue to see the Muslim community neglect those issues and try to draw attention to something else.

If nothing else, it shows us that Muslims and non-Muslims do not share a common concern as to what the major issues are that need to be addressed with regard to the nature of relationships between the Muslim and non-Muslim community.

you must be gaining in age if you forget what its like to be 12. i remember me and my freinds always saying stuff like this just out of ego, and trying to look tough and rebellion. and empowering ourselves by using the word whilst it is considered taboo

but whilst this seems a rather trivial point, i wonder why you are so quick to jump the gun "wondering" what our parents teach us etc. it raises questions about ur sincerity

 

[Grace Seeker]

you must be gaining in age if you forget what its like to be 12. i remember me and my freinds always saying stuff like this just out of ego, and trying to look tough and rebellion. and empowering ourselves by using the word whilst it is considered taboo

I too remember that sort of vibratto being part of what it means to be 12. I remember that some choose to be cowboys and Indians, others cops or robbers, still others gangsters, gang members, and one or two astronauts. What did this child choose? This particular child choose to be a terrorist as his way of expressing his idealized view of himself.

but whilst this seems a rather trivial point, i wonder why you are so quick to jump the gun "wondering" what our parents teach us etc. it raises questions about ur sincerity

You'll have to articulate that question then, because I'm oblivious to what you might be referencing. You were most correct when you said that this sort of child's play and child's words are expressions of their ego. The ego that Freud spoke of unfettered by the superego of adult inhibitions and restraints. But that is exactly why I find the expression to be scary, just like I find the racist language of children to be scary as well. They speak to us of not just the child's ego, but what lays behind the masks of adult restraints that govern the lives of those who are mentoring them in their young lives.

Now a child of 12 is just beginning the search for identity. He/she is going to try on many hats before he settles on one that he adopts for himself. And he is going to get his ideas from many different sources. So, I understand that to say these words today does not mean that his parents are raising him to be a terrorist. That's not what I was saying. But the idea of being a terrorist was introduced into his life by some means and it was a means that allowed him to identify with the concept. I submit to you that this is not the norm, but it has occurred in this child's panoply of possible identities that he can relate to, and that any child should consider the role viable enough to articulate is, IMO, a significant problem. But significant as it is, I say again it is still NOT the biggest concern. The bigger concern would be if it were to be ignored or dismissed as not needing to be addressed. For to do that gives tacit approval. And when that is one of the main issues presented by this child's behavior and we seek to deflect attention from it to other things then I also submit we are ourselves complicit in that process.

My parents had a solution for such behaviors that they didn't want to see repeated or even condoned in my life. They didn't try to defend it, justify it or even excuse it. If I said something as off the wall as this, they took a bar of soap and washed my mouth out. I quickly found my acceptable ways of expressing myself and searched for identities that would leave a better taste in my mouth afterward as well. That may also have been exactly what this young man's parents did as well. Let us hope so.

 

[IAmZamzam]

What is your point, Grace Seeker? And what does it have to do with anything?

 

[tango92]

I too remember that sort of vibratto being part of what it means to be 12. I remember that some choose to be cowboys and Indians, others cops or robbers, still others gangsters, gang members, and one or two astronauts. What did this child choose? This particular child choose to be a terrorist as his way of expressing his idealized view of himself.

You'll have to articulate that question then, because I'm oblivious to what you might be referencing. You were most correct when you said that this sort of child's play and child's words are expressions of their ego. The ego that Freud spoke of unfettered by the superego of adult inhibitions and restraints. But that is exactly why I find the expression to be scary, just like I find the racist language of children to be scary as well. They speak to us of not just the child's ego, but what lays behind the masks of adult restraints that govern the lives of those who are mentoring them in their young lives.

Now a child of 12 is just beginning the search for identity. He/she is going to try on many hats before he settles on one that he adopts for himself. And he is going to get his ideas from many different sources. So, I understand that to say these words today does not mean that his parents are raising him to be a terrorist. That's not what I was saying. But the idea of being a terrorist was introduced into his life by some means and it was a means that allowed him to identify with the concept. I submit to you that this is not the norm, but it has occurred in this child's panoply of possible identities that he can relate to, and that any child should consider the role viable enough to articulate is, IMO, a significant problem. But significant as it is, I say again it is still NOT the biggest concern. The bigger concern would be if it were to be ignored or dismissed as not needing to be addressed. For to do that gives tacit approval. And when that is one of the main issues presented by this child's behavior and we seek to deflect attention from it to other things then I also submit we are ourselves complicit in that process.

My parents had a solution for such behaviors that they didn't want to see repeated or even condoned in my life. They didn't try to defend it, justify it or even excuse it. If I said something as off the wall as this, they took a bar of soap and washed my mouth out. I quickly found my acceptable ways of expressing myself and searched for identities that would leave a better taste in my mouth afterward as well. That may also have been exactly what this young man's parents did as well. Let us hope so.

fair enough, i can see how it may influence teh childs later life. although i expect it isnt the case for the majority.

strange thing is, go back 10 yrs or so and the muslim community do not even recognize the word "terrorist". many yrs have my parents lived in this country peacefully and i can assure you never once did my parents (or any of my freinds parents as far as im aware) condone actions of the "terrorists" (lets presume they exist as the media portray them, it is beyond the scope of our current discussion). it is something alien to islam...

so where did the children pick up "im a terrorist gangsta yo!"? the media of course. I propose that had islam not been generally stereotyped as a terrorist religion we would never have seen such a phenomenon.

 

[Grace Seeker]

so where did the children pick up "im a terrorist gangsta yo!"? the media of course. I propose that had islam not been generally stereotyped as a terrorist religion we would never have seen such a phenomenon.

Oh, I agree with that. I understand that the problem is two-fold. It doesn't help when the world in which you live casts you this way. For an impressionable youngester, it's almost as if you're being told this is who you are. And when you hear this over and over again, well, it's going to have an effect. I didn't learn to play cowboys and Indians or cops and robbers from my parents, but from the movies they let me watch. And you can't blame a parent for watching the news. I'm not about trying to point fingers in blame, if I was those that created the stereotype would have the greater responsibility. I am suggesting that given the messed up world we live in, it is going to take more than denying the problem to resolve the problem.

 

[Pygoscelis]

I find it very irritating how people hate on non-Muslims and start using "kaafir" as a cuss word. That's why they repel from us and our religion. Be kind, accept them for who they are, and treat them with kindness. And pray that they be guided to The Truth. It's as simple as that. If they insist on their own opinion, don't start a useless debate knowing well that they will only be persistent. Give your opinion, give them time, and let them ponder over it. Done deal.

What a refreshing live and let live attitude. Thank you for posting that. If this was the image of Islam I received overall I would not be so anti-muslim as you correctly predict here.

 

[GuestFellow]

What a refreshing live and let live attitude. Thank you for posting that. If this was the image of Islam I received overall I would not be so anti-muslim as you correctly predict here.

I highly doubt that.

 

[IAmZamzam]

If this was the image of Islam I received overall I would not be so anti-muslim as you correctly predict here.

Being anti-Muslim is just one particular way of being a bigot. Anti-Islam would be iffy territory anyway, since to go from simply not believing in something to actively being opposed to it is a trait so commonly found in those with irrational hatred. But being anti-Muslim means setting yourself against an entire group of over a billion people, only the tiniest fraction of whom you could possibly have ever even heard of individually, let alone learned enough about to judge. Don't pretend it was just a poor choice of words. Just don't.

 

[Ramadhan]

I highly doubt that

I second this.

Just have a look at pygoscelis' profile, he's been here since october 2006.

 

[Watcher888]

I find it very strange and close to being racist that you begin your post with this introduction



Does that automatically mean the girl is not Muslims and all Muslims are non-White. Us Muslims are color blinds and come in every color possible, never noticing the skin pigment of our Brothers and Sisters.

Do you also assume that five 12 year old boys represent all Muslims and are qualified to show the beliefs of Islam?

Firstly I thought it relevant to the thread topic.
And your accusation of being "close to racist" is strange!

The article from the Daily Mail in the UK, says that the white girl is a non muslim, that's all!
And I note that the boy victim of this 'HATE' has an Asian father!

And as islam is a 'religion' for all nations, and muslims are all colours and races.
How can any question, enquiry, debate, or even a verbal or physical attack, be called 'racist'?

And I don't think that these 5 boys represent all muslims or islam at all!
I just found it highly disturbing from the human point of view.
And wonder where the parental guidance is from their parents and the ummah in general?

 

[quranalim]

I think depending on what madhab you are. you should follow the scholar (not interpret hadith or quran yourself)

if your hanafi you should beleive Imam Hanifa's theory of Darl al harb.

All 4 imams believed that muslims should fight non muslims in an offensive war. because they are non muslim (this is called jihad al talab).

But they disagreed on whether they should be attacked or given dawah first. all 4 schoalars believed (from what i have seen) have the view that they should be asked to pay jizyah first


(also, this offensive war can not be carried out without a muslim ruler)

""They would not invade you, but you invade them."" [Quote of the prophet]

Muhammad Sa'id Ramadan al-Buti, Jurisprudence in Muhammad's Biography (Damascus: Dar al-Fikr, 2001), pp. 242

http://downloads.islambase.info/booksEN/RulingJihad.pdf

 

[LauraS]

The response to this article is exactly what annoys people, instead of acknowledging this sort of attitude is a problem, it's immediately it's twisted round so others are to blame. You can say it's the bravado of youngsters (I personally never made death threats against people at that age), but they actually established themselves as a Muslim defence group and what happens when they get older? Do their views take a more radical turn? It's just as serious as if a thread appeared saying young Muslims had been getting death threats.

They may not represent the majority of Muslims, but their actions can still have impact.

 

[GuestFellow]

The response to this article is exactly what annoys people, instead of acknowledging this sort of attitude is a problem, it's immediately it's twisted round so others are to blame.

Last time I checked, Woodrow did not twist the article to blame others. He has an issue with how the article is presented. There is nothing wrong with pointing that out. Ironically, it appears to me you twisted Woodrow's comment...

Just curious but do some people always want Muslims to condemn every bad thing another Muslim has done openly? Can there not be an assumption that we already do not approve of these actions?