Wrong to attack non-Muslims

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So are you the troll and I the putz or vice versa?

I can't speak for you but the very fact I continue to post makes me a putz.

Yahia, what you have just done is one of the things this non-Muslim finds especially distressing. Rather than hear what is shared with you as something worthy of reflection, it feels like you have simply dismissed my observations out of hand. Not all attacks against non-Muslims are violent in nature, sometimes they are expressed in words or in the conveyance of a closed-off attitude.

I have no love lost for someone telling me (though of course refusing to come right out and say it directly) that they're trying to fight off a growing prejudice. It's an admirable effort if you're really making it (most people probably never bother to try and fight the onset at all when it happens to them) but not one that other people can help you with, let alone by behaving differently from the attitudes you're trying to train yourself not to expect through stereotype. Your "distress" is natural and upright. What am I supposed to do, act sympathetic toward someone who euphemizes that they're "generally" against sweeping stereotpyes but there is a "grain of truth" to this one even though they don't actually hold it, really they don't!

Fight it, yes. Fight it and die fighting if you must. What will not help you in doing so is making your successes dependent on individual people's behavior. That is not fighting it; that is feeding it. If a man is trying to stave off a racism against blacks, letting his opinion be at the mercy of any black who happens to come his way or interact with him regularly is exactly the last thing he needs to be doing.
 
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τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ;1387037 said:



we don't believe in trickle down sins in the Muslim world.. if we did, we'd hold each western accountable for a laundry list and a history filled with hatred, rape, pillaging, colonialism, mass graves and endless wars. People usually react to an action not simply out of whimsy.. perhaps it is prudent to study what it is that causes folks to act out in such a manner you know a 'root cause analysis' instead of requesting that a billion and a half other should 'acknowledge it'

funny stuff

I'm sorry? Does this board have a billion and a half members?

To Zafran too, this isn't about (my part in the discussion anyway) the Muslims community across the world, but this messageboard. I've actually read many statements and heard Muslims speak out against the actions of fellow Muslims. However on this board, on the whole, you prefer to defend Muslims rather than admit they're wrong. I even saw members dismiss another Muslim's post about his family's suffering under the Taliban because they refuse to hear bad things about Muslim groups.

There is talk of non-Muslims extremists but whenever I mention Islamic extremists I get questions like "well, what's an extremist?" Every article written about the actions of non-Muslims is believed but articles like the above (it may be from the Daily Mail, but the story will obviously have some ring of truth it) are just dismissed as having an anti-Muslim agenda.

On this board in general, I'm afraid there is an attitude of you must respect Islam, but we can pick apart and dismiss all other religions. We acknowledge not all Muslims are good but refuse to believe any might antagonise non-Muslims like non-Muslim extremists antagonise us.
 
:sl:

I'm sorry? Does this board have a billion and a half members?

To Zafran too, this isn't about (my part in the discussion anyway) the Muslims community across the world, but this messageboard. I've actually read many statements and heard Muslims speak out against the actions of fellow Muslims. However on this board, on the whole, you prefer to defend Muslims rather than admit they're wrong. I even saw members dismiss another Muslim's post about his family's suffering under the Taliban because they refuse to hear bad things about Muslim groups.

There is talk of non-Muslims extremists but whenever I mention Islamic extremists I get questions like "well, what's an extremist?" Every article written about the actions of non-Muslims is believed but articles like the above (it may be from the Daily Mail, but the story will obviously have some ring of truth it) are just dismissed as having an anti-Muslim agenda.

On this board in general, I'm afraid there is an attitude of you must respect Islam, but we can pick apart and dismiss all other religions. We acknowledge not all Muslims are good but refuse to believe any might antagonise non-Muslims like non-Muslim extremists antagonise us.

Look at what triggers such responses; instead of identifying certain Muslims who are "extremists", you choose to write "Islamic extremists", as if Islam is behind their "extremism".

Just because the media makes an insult common, doesn't mean its no longer an insult. Try to keep that in mind.

This disease seems to be growing rapidly, any time a "Muslim" commits a crime; somehow its an "Islamic act".

:wa:
 
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However on this board, on the whole, you prefer to defend Muslims rather than admit they're wrong.

I kind of get where you're coming from but i wouldn't tar everyone with the same brush. Not everyone here is a Taliban sympathizer
 
I'm sorry? Does this board have a billion and a half members?

who are the 'Muslims' that your ladyship would like to acknowledge the blame?
Just, whenever incidents crop up that show Muslims in a bad light actually acknowledge it instead of looking somewhere else to put the blame.

take a moment or two to think before you write!
 
So are you the troll and I the putz or vice versa?


Yahia, what you have just done is one of the things this non-Muslim finds especially distressing. Rather than hear what is shared with you as something worthy of reflection, it feels like you have simply dismissed my observations out of hand. Not all attacks against non-Muslims are violent in nature, sometimes they are expressed in words or in the conveyance of a closed-off attitude.

You should judge a Religion, in particularly Islam by it's teachings not by it's followers. Were all human at the end of the day, we do make mistakes and things such as ignorance, hypocrasy and evil desires can sometimes sway minds away from the real deen.

Yes, some Muslims who I rather label as hypocrites do take things to the extreme and go against teachings of the Sunnah/Quran and try to justify actions behind the "Islam Title", you can call them bad seeds if you like, but every religion or group shall I say has bad seeds. There are also those that are "slightly misguided", but that's usually down to human error or a direct misunderstanding.

Point is, Islam's root teachings do no promote violence against other people or races. Yes, it does allow a person to be violent, but that's only under special circumstances. These circumstances might I add go together with "basic human nature", in other words, self-defence. Animals will always struggle(fight) to protect not only themselves but also their cubsin a bid to survive. Humans are no different, if we are being attacked, or oppressed then we will by natural human instincts fight against the oppression. Any other form of fighting is against Islams teachings. I have absolutly no doubts about this, no way nearly 2 Billion people are following this religion because it encourages violence, with the exception of few, no one likes real unconditioned violence in this world.

Regarding negative expression of words, again this goes against the fundemental teachings of Islam.

"Invite (all) to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious." – Qur’an English Translation [16:125]

When you look at countries today like Indonesia, China, parts of Africa, Malaysia - some of these places have the largest Muslims population in the world, yet not a single Muslim army set foot on their lands. Only merchants/traders who preached the religion through rightoues and peaceful manners did it spread throughout the countries. On top of this, many established hadiths support the fact that as a Muslim, bad words and negativity should never come out from his/her mouth.

I suppose your main concern might not be the teachings, but the fact that somehow there are people that are being "influenced" shall we say in a negative manner that could be dangerous to yourself or others in a violent sense, right? Ofcourse you should realise that people in different religions are influenced by different things, I could likewise say some Christians are influenced by the Crusaders etc. As far as Islam goes, these misguided people can only be guided back to the right teachings of its religion, as its obligatory for every Muslim to guide their brother/sisters who have astrayed. Those that transgress laws get punished, according to their state laws.

I remember reading a article and it highlighted that, when people read the Quran they can try to make out of it what "they want". So if someone is clearly looking for any negatives in the Quran, then they'll certainly make that of it. Most, usually don't seek any knowledge on the meanings of verses and when they put it up against a Muslim and the Muslim tells them that they are either intepretting it wrong or taking it out of context, the non-believer is so secluded in their own intentions that they'll narrow mindedly won't accept such a justification as an answer. Ofcourse it's usually the one who's more open minded that will get a click in their brain and not ignore the overwhelming amount of positives/peace teachings the book contains. And you can say whether something is violent or peaceful, it should be catagorized under one. Some who misintepret/brainwashed will put it under violent/evil, others will think a bit and say, something can't contradict like this, it can't tell you to "give to charity, help the elderly/widow, respect your parents, have tolerance, take in orphans etc in one chapter and then tell you to kill people in another chapter", it just doesn't make sense. There has to be a meaning behind one of them which justify's it, and most obviously it's likely to be the one which you percieve to "encourage" violence. The person will then further research these verses and clear the doubt and put Islam's mainstream and proper teachings under the Peace catagory.

In the end, I just think it is pretty unfair to pin violence on Muslims, when what we are meant to follow certainly contradicts this. The majority of the Muslims in the world do not encourage violence, not by words or actions. Islam didn't spread through violence, over 80% of the muslims in the world are non-arabs (arab lands is where Islam orginated from). It is only people who believe otherwise that usually judge a religion by acts of a small minority of it's followers, which I think in all moral senses is wrong.
 
Suggestion for Grace Seeker and any number of others: stop watching the news. As I've explained before every generation has its pet great big bogus bogeyman to scare you with so you'll keep supporting the news and its ratings. In Victorian times it was pornographers, in the 50's and whereabouts Communists, now it's Muslims selectively focused and spat on. We should all just wait for it to blow over eventually, because the moment they find their next boogeyman and start reporting their scare stories almost exclusively on him instead, prejudice against Muslims (what a coincidence!) will take a sharp drop.
 
Yahya, that is about half the problem.

The other half is what this thread has been about.
 
:sl:

Look at what triggers such responses; instead of identifying certain Muslims who are "extremists", you choose to write "Islamic extremists", as if Islam is behind their "extremism".

Just because the media makes an insult common, doesn't mean its no longer an insult. Try to keep that in mind.

This disease seems to be growing rapidly, any time a "Muslim" commits a crime; somehow its an "Islamic act".

:wa:

:wa:

You've raised a very good point. Sometimes, these people remind me of children, always repeating what is said on TV. :/
 
All right, let's just be out with it then, Pygo and Seeker and all you folks: what exactly do you want us to say? What is it you want to hear so badly?
 
All right, let's just be out with it then, Pygo and Seeker and all you folks: what exactly do you want us to say? What is it you want to hear so badly?

What about this: "Islam teaches it is wrong to attack non-Muslims"?

A problem are of course those people whose don´t want to believe/listen this but only opposite.
 
Ahmed Waheed- If it's not Islamic extremism to advocate killing non-Muslims (which does happen) then what is it?

It's not about wanting Muslims on this board to apologise for everything that goes on, why should you? I've already said numerous times what bothers people, the fact that there's refusal to see the problems at the moment, it's not just western media portrayals. There is some basis of truth behind what is said and there is a lot of hate directed towards western non-Muslims. It's not all one sided. To not get so angry and defensive whenever something is posted putting fellow Muslims in a bad light, but discuss it as an issue. You expect non-Muslims to ignore anything Muslims do wrong as not truly representing the religion but are forever posting about Jews, Christians or whatever who have done this and that.
 
:sl:

Ahmed Waheed- If it's not Islamic extremism to advocate killing non-Muslims (which does happen) then what is it?

It's not about wanting Muslims on this board to apologise for everything that goes on, why should you? I've already said numerous times what bothers people, the fact that there's refusal to see the problems at the moment, it's not just western media portrayals. There is some basis of truth behind what is said and there is a lot of hate directed towards western non-Muslims. It's not all one sided. To not get so angry and defensive whenever something is posted putting fellow Muslims in a bad light, but discuss it as an issue. You expect non-Muslims to ignore anything Muslims do wrong as not truly representing the religion but are forever posting about Jews, Christians or whatever who have done this and that.

If you think its an "Islamic" act, then present your evidence.

:wa:
 
Of course it's not an Islamic act, but it's soemthing calling for people not of their religion to be killed and a form of extremism. The crusaders slaughtered innocent Muslims, any God worth worshipping would never condone it, but these people are still called Chritians.
 
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:sl:

Of course it's not an Islamic act, but it's soemthing calling for people not of their religion to be killed and a form of extremism. The crusaders slaughtered innocent Muslims, any God worth worshipping would never condone it, but these people are still called Chritians.

Indeed, they were Christians, but their actions weren't caused by their religion. They were following the commands of a human being, who wanted to "take back" some land, and kill people in the process.

Similarly, if a "Muslim" commits an evil act; it doesn't become "Islamic". Before anything else, human beings are capable of sin, greed, jealousy and many other attributes, which makes us far from flawless. The deen on the other hand, teaches perfection; one can only try to follow it to the best of their ability. There are always obsticles; life is full of "good" and "bad" trials.

The media's term extremism is quite different to the real English word, which means to abide by something "to the extreme". Islam prohibits killing of innocent, including the person in war who drops his sword while you're about to kill him. As he has dropped his sword; he's no longer attacking you, so you can't kill him. This is the real Islamic extremism. Are you talking about this?

Usama bin Zayd (RA) had killed a man he was fighting; just as he was "finishing him off", the man shouted his surrender, by saying لا إله إلا الله (there's no God, except Allah [the one true God]). Rasoolullah :saws1: questioned him later, أقتلته بعدما قال لاإله إلا الله؟, that you killed him even though he said la ilaaha illallah? (i.e. after he surrendered). To say the shahaadah; its more than just surrendering, but given the circumstances between the Muslims at the time, and those oppressing them; it meant that the person you're fighting is now serious about peace.

Hadeeth also teaches us another truth about someone who commits an evil act; that such a person isn't in the state of Imaan, while he/she is sinning.

:wa:
 
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Ahmed Waheed- If it's not Islamic extremism to advocate killing non-Muslims (which does happen) then what is it?

It's not about wanting Muslims on this board to apologise for everything that goes on, why should you? I've already said numerous times what bothers people, the fact that there's refusal to see the problems at the moment, it's not just western media portrayals. There is some basis of truth behind what is said and there is a lot of hate directed towards western non-Muslims. It's not all one sided. To not get so angry and defensive whenever something is posted putting fellow Muslims in a bad light, but discuss it as an issue. You expect non-Muslims to ignore anything Muslims do wrong as not truly representing the religion but are forever posting about Jews, Christians or whatever who have done this and that.

Just entering in a few of my own views here. Extremism need not be a bad thing. If a person firmly believes in something it is to be expected and perhaps even admired that they will stand by their convictions and let their views be kept open and public. That may be an extremist. Many of us Muslims are extremists in that context. But we would never willfully harm another person for the purpose of imposing our beliefs upon them.

I think what is called extremist in the media is better defined as being unreasoning radicalism. That is the type of thought that would justify any act for the purpose of making one's own thoughts to be the only ones permitted.

Terrorism is another matter. Terrorism has no religious or ethnic identity a terrorist is a terrorist and there is no need for any identifying label to be attached to them. Terrorists come in all shapes, colors beliefs and flavors. They basically all follow the same concepts and serve only themselves.

Christian Terrorist=Muslim Terrorist=Jewish Terrorist=Hindu Terrorist=Buddhist Terrorist=Atheist Terrorist All the same thing, but often labeled as a religion's teachings by the media. Oddly tho the press seems to find it easiest to use the title Muslim terrorist and simply call any other Terrorist. We do not hold a monopoly on owning any terrorists and condemn the actions of all terrorists. They all share the same evil heart.
 
^^^Maybe members are offended by the term extremist because the meaning has been changed but to the poster (are you still Ahmed Waheed? :S Sorry lol, obviously I don't know Arabic) you know what I'm referring to, whatever word you want to label preachers of violence, it's still an issue.

Woodrow- you are right, they are all the same- misguided people carrying out evil acts and they exist amongst all of us, regardless of religion or race. That's what I personally want, to be generally able to discuss radical Muslims or any other religion and for it to be accepted they are out there instead of denial. If none of us agree with their views then we shouldn't be arguing, but be able to talk sensibly with each other because we are the ones that have to stand against it.

I wish I could word it better but there we are.
 
Ahmed Waheed- If it's not Islamic extremism to advocate killing non-Muslims (which does happen) then what is it?

There are some Muslims that carry out attacks against western countries and even Muslim countries, targeting US embassies. Some westerners believe that these Muslims are attacking non-Muslims because of Islam. However, this is not the case. These people can continue to believe this, but end of the day, they are only fooling themselves.

The US and it allies have been developing policies that have angered many Muslims in the Middle East and South Asia. These policies involved supporting Israel unequivocally, supporting dictatorship regimes like in Egypt and Saudi Arabia and setting up military bases throughout the Middle East. This is before 9/11. Now, some Muslims are getting more angry due to the Afghanistan and Iraq war. Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib, the cartoon controversy, Niqaab ban in France, Minerat ban and the mainstream media attitude towards Islam and Muslims have made things much worse. Following 9/11, many westerners took a hawkish stance against Muslims.

As a result, some Muslims are angry with westerners. Some will go further and carry out attacks and use Islam to justify it. Of course, killing innocent civilians is wrong and only makes things worse.
 
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I'm sorry? Does this board have a billion and a half members?

To Zafran too, this isn't about (my part in the discussion anyway) the Muslims community across the world, but this messageboard. I've actually read many statements and heard Muslims speak out against the actions of fellow Muslims. However on this board, on the whole, you prefer to defend Muslims rather than admit they're wrong. I even saw members dismiss another Muslim's post about his family's suffering under the Taliban because they refuse to hear bad things about Muslim groups.

There is talk of non-Muslims extremists but whenever I mention Islamic extremists I get questions like "well, what's an extremist?" Every article written about the actions of non-Muslims is believed but articles like the above (it may be from the Daily Mail, but the story will obviously have some ring of truth it) are just dismissed as having an anti-Muslim agenda.

On this board in general, I'm afraid there is an attitude of you must respect Islam, but we can pick apart and dismiss all other religions. We acknowledge not all Muslims are good but refuse to believe any might antagonise non-Muslims like non-Muslim extremists antagonise us .

This is about the muslim community for goodness sake we're talking about an example that actually happend by muslims - do you know the reason they like to use - its got everything to do with the muslim community.

Again your problem is that you like Generalising - here is a very good example - just because some muslims on this board have view A does not mean that all muslims have the same view on this board. Some people do support the taliban on this forum but so far I havent heard a single muslim on this board defending what the muslims did in the daily mail article if you have I like to see examples - many muslims have clearly said that the the muslims and the non muslim did wrong -

On this board in general, I'm afraid there is an attitude of you must respect Islam, but we can pick apart and dismiss all other religions. We acknowledge not all Muslims are good but refuse to believe any might antagonise non-Muslims like non-Muslim extremists antagonise us

I havent heard a single person actaully being coerced on this board to respect Islam. If we had dismissed all religions all non muslim members who disagreed with Islam would have been banned by now. -On you last statement can you give an example where or who actually said that?

Edit - last but not least I think Proffessorsunday has given a wholistic view on the entire Islamic extremists view and preety much what its about - picking up a single example in the daily mail doesnt explain why there are extremists out there and how they came about and what needs to be done to solve the problem. Frankly your one way focus hasnt solve the problem so far and never will. Its a daily mail waste of time.
 
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There are some Muslims that carry out attacks against western countries and even Muslim countries, targeting US embassies. Some westerners believe that these Muslims are attacking non-Muslims because of Islam. However, this is not the case. These people can continue to believe this, but end of the day, they are only fooling themselves.

The US and it allies have been developing policies that have angered many Muslims in the Middle East and South Asia. These policies involved supporting Israel unequivocally, supporting dictatorship regimes like in Egypt and Saudi Arabia and setting up military bases throughout the Middle East. This is before 9/11. Now, some Muslims are getting more angry due to the Afghanistan and Iraq war. Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib, the cartoon controversy, Niqaab ban in France, Minerat ban and the mainstream media attitude towards Islam and Muslims have made things much worse. Following 9/11, many westerners took a hawkish stance against Muslims.

As a result, some Muslims are angry with westerners. Some will go further and carry out attacks and use Islam to justify it. Of course, killing innocent civilians is wrong and only makes things worse.

Very well said I hope Laura is paying attention.
 
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