Yikes, Non Muslims have invaded the Boards.

[glo]

Salaam/Peace

I don't visit comperative threads anymore , it's not that I don't like to talk to non-Muslims ; it's just because I don't have patience anymore to talk about differences of faiths .

It's a shame really, that we get to such a point where we feel like that.

The question is, why do we go round and round in circles?
Why not just learn what each other believe and leave it at that? We don't have to agree with each other - but that doesn't mean we have to endlessly argue with each other either ...

Perhaps we need to remind ourselves that for over a thousand years Muslims, Jews and Christians have had the same debates and disagreements. In all that time, no one religion has 'won' over the others. Each has continued to have followers who believed it to be the truth.
Why then do we think that we can here and now in this forum suddenly convince and convert each other?

I really like that many non-Muslims are here in the forum . InshaAllah the forum will be a good place always for both Muslims and non-Muslims to know about each other faith.

Thanks br Woodrow for the thread.

That's kind of you to say. I agree.

 

[titus]

One way to improve the forums would be to moderate the insulting of other members that, unfortunately, happens way too often.

For the Muslims that do not want to interact with non-Muslims on this forum there should be some forums in which non-Muslims are not allowed to post. For instance I never go beyond the General forums and leave the rest to the Muslim members.

As for the interaction I enjoy it, but most especially when I am able to have a rational discussion with a Muslim member that does not end with insults being hurled at me. Unfortunately that is often not the case.

Woodrow, You and I have had more than one discussion on different topics, and while we don't always agree we are always civil and I know we have both been able to make each other see things from a different perspective. That is what I come here for, those small moments of enlightenment into the way another person sees things. That is why I return occasionally to visit this forum.

 

[Woodrow]

I can see the suggestion that we need more moderation especially in some sections. Moderation among a diverse group is extremely difficult. I feel we have the best mods possible for such a difficult task. In my humble opinion it is not a question of needing more moderation it is a question of us all needing to understand how and what should be moderated.

This is an area in which the members play a vital role. Use the report button if you find a post offensive. We may not see things from the same perspective as you, but we are capable of learning and we do want to treat all members fairly and not deliberatly allow any member to be mistreated, without compromising our beliefs.

I think the best way to do this is to keep a tighter hold on personal attacks. This may be an area in which we seem to be lax. Because of our differences what is seen as benign to one person, may be insulting to another.I believe this is an area of moderation we can get a better hold on, but we can not do so if we are not aware of what a person sees as insulting. Here the report button can be a help. Us mods are human and we really are capable of learning. Many of you guys are excellent teachers.

A difficulty I see our Christian members have: seems to be in how they can explain and correct erroneous statements about their faith without it looking like an attempt to spread their belief. I do sympathize with this difficulty and to be honest I do see many errors said about our Christian members. I think the problem is us non-Christians often have knowledge of one or 2 denominations and assume what we see applies to all who call themselves Christian.

Overall I think the greatest improvement would be if all of us learn to resist the tempation of personal comments directed towards the persona of those we get angry at.

We are people, we are not going to like every member here. we will all see somebody we find irritating. The key is for us to learn to attack the statements and not the person making the statements. a very difficult task sometimes and one that requires much patience and an understanding of fair fighting. It is an area we all fail in on occasion.

 

[Grace Seeker]

:I am hoping this thread can/will become a dialog in which we can each express our expectations of what we think the forum should be. We want to know if there are areas in need of improvement? Do our Muslim members feel the non-Muslim members have too much freedom to discuss their religion ? Do our non-Muslim members feel unfairly treated and/or stifled in the ability to speak openly? Are we actually benefiting anybody and if so who is being benefited?

Do I, as a non-Muslim member feel unfairly treated and/or stifled in the ability to speak openly?

There are two different questions contained therein:
1) No, I don't feel unfairly treated.

I know the rules of the forum, they clearly deliniate boundaries that either I can accept or go elsewhere. That is fair on a private forum. I suspect I would do something similar if I were to have a forum of my own.


2) Yes, I do on occassion feel stifled in the ability to speak openly.

What to me are questions and doubts I have with regard to Islam come across to others as accusations. Criticism of Mohammad is not accepted, and if referring to a blatant attack on his person (or any person) I can understand this. But, some here see the simple questioning of the veracity of his prophethood or the revelatory nature of the Qu'ran as being against the rules. If this is so, then honest questioning is in this regard limited.

I have never once in writing a post, set out with the intent to proselytize anyone. But the very essence of my faith is to invite others to come to a knowledge of God as made known to us in and through the work and ministry of Jesus. So, to never include that aspect of my faith in answering questions about it, is to actually give a distorted picture of it. Yet, some of my posts have been deleted in the past simply because in answering questions about my faith, I was seen to be promoting my faith. Now, I hasten to add, that those mods who deleted those posts I don't for one moment think were being either disrespectful to me or my fath, they were simply applying the forum's rules as they understood them. But that understanding does stifle and limit what I can say (and therefore what people can learn about my faith) to a certain degree.

However, the above circumstances of the actual forum rules stifling discussion are rather rare. I notice they occur mostly with new and younger mods who I suspect are feeling empowered by their new position of authority and have yet to develop the patience and wisdom for a more delicate hand in its use. Nor are these instances what I find to be truly stifling. Rather, what I find stifling is an attitude that occurs among only a small minority of posters, yet has a dramatic effect on the overall atmosphere of the board. This attitude is non-discrminatory and prevelant among Muslim and non-Muslim alike.

What I find most stifling are those who seem insistent on turning any and every discussion into an "I'm right, you're wrong" contest as if posters were gladiators contesting in the arena. A good example can be found in a thread I was once very much interested in: "Quran vs Bible". I thought that this was going to be a thread where one could make note of similarities and difference between the two -- and it did start that way -- but, it has deteriorated into just another thread among many where one person is trying to prove the Qur'an is true and the Bible false and another trying to do the opposite. Why do we have to "prove" anything? Who really thinks that after 1000+ years of such point and counter-point discussion that we on these forums are going to come up with anything new? For me, the goal is not to prove Islam false. Even if I could do so (which I know someone is suddenly just dying to say it can't be done, because......), of what value would that be if we continued to talk past each other?

I think we have to learn to understand each other more. I need to hear the pain of the Muslim woman who is surrounded by non-Muslim men who look upon her as an object rather than a person. I need you to hear the depth of love for submitting to God's will in my life that is every bit as much a part of my Christian faith as it is in Islam. We need to help each other find a way to relegate those who see the death of 74 people in Uganda or children asleep in their homes in Iraq or Afghanistan as either justifiable or able to be written off as "collateral damage" as not only NOT representative of our respective faiths, but that those who plan such things should be aggressively reputiated and challenged to amend their ways or be confronted by those they erroneously pretend to fight on behalf of for the damage they do to our respective faiths through mis-use of our faith's name. But those sorts of discussions do not seem possible in the present environment as I experience it on these boards.

 

[glo]

Rather, what I find stifling is an attitude that occurs among only a small minority of posters, yet has a dramatic effect on the overall atmosphere of the board. This attitude is non-discrminatory and prevelant among Muslim and non-Muslim alike. What I find most stifling are those who seem insistent on turning any and every discussion into an "I'm right, you're wrong" contest as if posters were gladiator contesting in the arena. A good example can be found in a thread I was once very much interested in: "Quran vs Bible". I thought that this was going to be a thread where one could make note of similarities and difference between the two -- and it did start that way -- but, it has deteriorated into just another thread among many where one person is trying to prove the Qur'an is true and the Bible false and another trying to do the opposite. Why do we have to "prove" anything? Who really thinks that after 1000 years of such point and counter-point discussion that we on these forums are going to come up with anything new? For me, the goal is not to prove Islam false. Even if I could do so (which I know someone is just dying to say can't be done, because......) of what value would that be if we continued to talk past each other? I think we have to learn to understand each other more.

Well said. I couldn't agree more.

I need to hear the pain of the Muslim woman who is surrounded by non-Muslim men who look upon her as an object rather than a person.
I need you to hear the depth of love for submitting to God's will in my life that is every bit as much a part of my Christian faith as it is in Islam.
We need to help each other find a way to relegate those who see the death of 74 people in Uganda or children asleep in their homes in Iraq or Afghanistan as either justifiable or able to be written off as "collateral damage" as not only not representative of our respective faiths, but aggressively reputiated and challenged to amend their ways or be confronted by those they erroneously pretend to fight on behalf of for the damage they do to our respective faiths through mis-use of our faith's name.
But those sorts of discussion do not seem possible in the present environment as I experience it on these boards.

Amen to those comments too.

It's good to see you, Grace Seeker. I hope things are settling down at home.

 

[Woodrow]

Do I, as a non-Muslim member feel unfairly treated and/or stifled in the ability to speak openly?

There are two different questions contained therein:
1) No, I don't feel unfairly treated.

I know the rules of the forum, they clearly deliniate boundaries that either I can accept or go elsewhere. That is fair on a private forum. I suspect I would do something similar if I were to have a forum of my own.


2) Yes, I do on occassion feel stifled in the ability to speak openly.

What to me are questions and doubts I have with regard to Islam come across to others as accusations. Criticism of Mohammad is not accepted, and if referring to a blatant attack on his person (or any person) I can understand this. But, some here see the simple questioning of the veracity of his prophethood or the revelatory nature of the Qu'ran as being against the rules. If this is so, then honest questioning is in this regard limited.

I have never once in writing a post, set out with the intent to proselytize anyone. But the very essence of my faith is to invite others to come to a knowledge of God as made known to us in and through the work and ministry of Jesus. So, to never include that aspect of my faith in answering questions about it, is to actually give a distorted picture of it. Yet, some of my posts have been deleted in the past simply because in answering questions about my faith, I was seen to be promoting my faith. Now, I hasten to add, that those mods who deleted those posts I don't for one moment think were being either disrespectful to me or my fath, they were simply applying the forum's rules as they understood them. But that understanding does stifle and limit what I can say (and therefore what people can learn about my faith) to a certain degree.

However, the above circumstances of the actual forum rules stifling discussion are rather rare. I notice they occur mostly with new and younger mods who I suspect are feeling empowered by their new position of authority and have yet to develop the patience and wisdom for a more delicate hand in its use. Nor are these instances what I find to be truly stifling. Rather, what I find stifling is an attitude that occurs among only a small minority of posters, yet has a dramatic effect on the overall atmosphere of the board. This attitude is non-discrminatory and prevelant among Muslim and non-Muslim alike.

What I find most stifling are those who seem insistent on turning any and every discussion into an "I'm right, you're wrong" contest as if posters were gladiators contesting in the arena. A good example can be found in a thread I was once very much interested in: "Quran vs Bible". I thought that this was going to be a thread where one could make note of similarities and difference between the two -- and it did start that way -- but, it has deteriorated into just another thread among many where one person is trying to prove the Qur'an is true and the Bible false and another trying to do the opposite. Why do we have to "prove" anything? Who really thinks that after 1000+ years of such point and counter-point discussion that we on these forums are going to come up with anything new? For me, the goal is not to prove Islam false. Even if I could do so (which I know someone is suddenly just dying to say it can't be done, because......), of what value would that be if we continued to talk past each other?

I think we have to learn to understand each other more. I need to hear the pain of the Muslim woman who is surrounded by non-Muslim men who look upon her as an object rather than a person. I need you to hear the depth of love for submitting to God's will in my life that is every bit as much a part of my Christian faith as it is in Islam. We need to help each other find a way to relegate those who see the death of 74 people in Uganda or children asleep in their homes in Iraq or Afghanistan as either justifiable or able to be written off as "collateral damage" as not only NOT representative of our respective faiths, but that those who plan such things should be aggressively reputiated and challenged to amend their ways or be confronted by those they erroneously pretend to fight on behalf of for the damage they do to our respective faiths through mis-use of our faith's name. But those sorts of discussions do not seem possible in the present environment as I experience it on these boards.

Peace Gene and Thank you for the input.

Although I quoted your post I am not going to attempt to address it point by point but rather just express some thoughts this has evoked.

I can see a need for compromise among all members, not compromise in the sense of acceptance of what we believe to be wrong, but compromise in the sense of agreeing to disagree in a peaceful manner.

One problem I see us Muslims have is when we ask a person of another faith what their beliefs are we tend to view it as them promoting their beliefs when they honestly state what they believe. A difficult area to work around. Either we learn not to ask such questions or we learn to be more specific in how we ask or we learn to see the answer as an answer and not as promoting a faith. Or perhaps best we all learn the forum rules and even those of us entrusted to enforce them, understand the same rules apply to everybody.The existing rules seem to be adequate. If anything needs to be done is for us mods to come to a better understanding of the rules and be certain we apply them fairly.

Yes, we do stifle a large amount of non-Islamic discussion. Not because we are anti anybody but simply because our honest goal is to present an honest understanding of Islam as lived by Muslims.

I believe that non-Muslims join this for for at least as many different reasons as there are members. Each member is an individual and the presence of several people from the same faith does not always mean it is a team effort for an agenda. Only each person knows why he/she is here. It can be simple curiosity, it can be for the pupose of seeking information to convert, it can be for wanting to better understand family, friends or neighbors who are Muslim. It can be any one of ofr even all of countless reasons. But, the simple fact is we all need to see each other as members and not base our comments upon what we think another person believes.

Life can be reasonably enjoyable and even productive if each and everyone of us learns we need to disagree peacefully, address comments with factas and give an explanation or source for our statements. And all agree to follow the forum rules.

Overall I feel that virtually every member here is here for sincere and honest reasons and in spite of our differences there is a fairly large amount of peaceful behavior and even some interesting sincere debates.

So perhaps overall the key to success is simple, we all follow the rules, disagree in peace and avoid personal agendas.

 

[glo]

I believe that non-Muslims join this for for at least as many different reasons as there are members. Each member is an individual and the presence of several people from the same faith does not always mean it is a team effort for an agenda. Only each person knows why he/she is here. It can be simple curiosity, it can be for the pupose of seeking information to convert, it can be for wanting to better understand family, friends or neighbors who are Muslim. It can be any one of ofr even all of countless reasons. But, the simple fact is we all need to see each other as members and not base our comments upon what we think another person believes.

I think it's important to remember that.
For followers of those religions which instruct us to 'share our faith' and 'bring others to faith', it can be difficult to deal with friends and loved ones who (for whatever reason) do not accept our faith as their own.

It's something I observe in Christians elsewhere and in some Muslims here in the forum.

Muslims here are generally happy to explain about Islam and to answer questions ... and often there is an apparent (and understandable) desire to see non-Muslims accept Islam. When that doesn't happen people perhaps become frustrated or impatient.

Like you say, non-Muslims are here for many different reasons.
Perhaps it helps to remember that more often - and to trust that whether we believe it or not, we are all in God's hands, and he guides us we ways we cannot begin to understand!
Who knows what he has planned for each of us, if only we remain open to his loving guidance. :statisfie

Therefore I think Muslims should not feel under pressure to 'have to say the right thing to convert non-Muslim members to Islam', and to remain calm and joyful in the knowledge that God is in charge!
Woodrow, you out of all people know how long it can take to start hearing God's calling again. Perhaps that's one reason why you are more at peace with the presence of many non-Muslims here.

So perhaps overall the key to success is simple, we all follow the rules, disagree in peace and avoid personal agendas.

I agree with you.

I also strongly agree with Grace Seeker's statement that we should stand together against atrocities in the world, rather than hide behind suspect excuses world leaders offer us for them.
Our faiths have so much in common!
Humanity alone has so much in common!!

I would like to see more threads where Muslim and non-Muslim members join forces for the common good of humanity, for human rights, against injustice and starvation, for harmony and peace ... rather than spend so much energy on arguing against each other!

 

[Ramadhan]

Like you say, non-Muslims are here for many different reasons.

It is true that non-muslims are here for many different reasons.
And when some non-muslims have personal agendas, it becomes apparent very quickly, and the mods usually threw those out pretty quickly.

Therefore I think Muslims should not feel under pressure to 'have to say the right thing to convert non-Muslim members to Islam', and to remain calm and joyful in the knowledge that God is in charge!

So far I don't see any muslim here who "feels under pressure to have to say the right thing to convert non-muslims to Islam".
Do you?
Make no mistake though, that as muslims, we are obligated to convey the truth that is Islam.

 

[glo]

It is true that non-muslims are here for many different reasons.
And when some non-muslims have personal agendas, it becomes apparent very quickly, and the mods usually threw those out pretty quickly.

Luckily the moderators are on the ball.
On the whole, however, I would agree with Woodrow's statement:

Overall I feel that virtually every member here is here for sincere and honest reasons and in spite of our differences there is a fairly large amount of peaceful behavior and even some interesting sincere debates.

So far I don't see any muslim here who "feels under pressure to have to say the right thing to convert non-muslims to Islam".
Do you?
Make no mistake though, that as muslims, we are obligated to convey the truth that is Islam.

Perhaps 'under pressure' is not the best term to choose.
What I mean is a noticeable and admirable desire in some Muslims here to see non-Muslim members to come to Islam.
I have heard many Muslim members here express that desire for me and other non-Muslims quite openly.
There is nothing wrong with that, and I don't mean to criticise it. Like I said, I see the same tendencies in many Christians outside this forum too. It is the nature of our faiths which gives us that desire to see others accept what we are convinced to be the truth. We do it out of love and care for non-believers - so the intention is entirely positive!

Indeed, your terminology of 'conveying the truth of ones faith' probably explains the concept quite well.

It does become a problem, however, when people go beyond the sharing of their faith and feel they need to convert others to their faith. That's what I mean by people 'feeling under pressure' to convert others.
I believe only God can touch our hearts and move us to accept the truth - people can only ever offer information and advice.
If people put upon themselves the burden to convert others, they can end up disappointed and frustrated when 'their efforts fail' - and possibly angry with the person who 'has refused' to see the truth.

Of course this is only my personal perception of things. Whether people truly feel like that or not, I couldn't possibly say. I don't know the intentions of others in this forum. I am only sharing my thoughts on this topic - people can decide for themselves whether they are relevant to them or not.

 

[Woodrow]

Luckily the moderators are on the ball.
On the whole, however, I would agree with Woodrow's statement:








Perhaps 'under pressure' is not the best term to choose.
What I mean is a noticeable and admirable desire in some Muslims here to see non-Muslim members to come to Islam.
I have heard many Muslim members here express that desire for me and other non-Muslims quite openly.
There is nothing wrong with that, and I don't mean to criticise it. Like I said, I see the same tendencies in many Christians outside this forum too. It is the nature of our faiths which gives us that desire to see others accept what we are convinced to be the truth. We do it out of love and care for non-believers - so the intention is entirely positive!

Indeed, your terminology of 'conveying the truth of ones faith' probably explains the concept quite well.

It does become a problem, however, when people go beyond the sharing of their faith and feel they need to convert others to their faith. That's what I mean by people 'feeling under pressure' to convert others.
I believe only God can touch our hearts and move us to accept the truth - people can only ever offer information and advice.
If people put upon themselves the burden to convert others, they can end up disappointed and frustrated when 'their efforts fail' - and possibly angry with the person who 'has refused' to see the truth.

Of course this is only my personal perception of things. Whether people truly feel like that or not, I couldn't possibly say. I don't know the intentions of others in this forum. I am only sharing my thoughts on this topic - people can decide for themselves whether they are relevant to them or not.

Peace Glo,

Quite a bit there to think over. like I did with Grace Seeker's post, I am not going to attempt to address it point by point but rather post the thoughts it has given me. In no specific order.

It is true that most if not all of us Muslims do have a strong need and desire to see all people accept Islam. This is not from arrogance of from any hidden political motivation. In simplicity we sincerely believe it is our obligation and one we do out of love for Allaah(swt) and love of our fellow humans.

There is some difficulty in understanding that people who believe different than us, may have the very same feelings about their faith. The expression of these feelings may sometimes be seen as a deliberate attempt to persuade Muslims to leave Islam.

To keep this from becoming a problem or an issue, perhaps we all need to be certain that we keep discussions about faiths other than Islam in the comparative religion section. Fortunately most members already do that. We all also need to be aware that religious discussions are often very emotional in nature and are probably the most difficult area to debate. This is the area most in need for us to be mindful that we focus on the topic and not on the person posting.

 

[Grace Seeker]

So far I don't see any muslim here who "feels under pressure to have to say the right thing to convert non-muslims to Islam".
Do you?

Whether people feel "under pressure" or not is hard for me to say. But I do observe that some are always, as you say, quick to "convey the truth that is Islam." Now if, as Woodrow said, we can agree to disagree. Or if, as the Quran says, there is no compulsion in religion. I would assert that such an attempt is not in fact always necessary nor even the wisest action even when one's goal it is to win converts for Islam. If I may be so bold, allow me to use a couple of your own recent comments to illustrate how two similar statements can come across completely differently to a non-Muslim --at least to this non-Muslim:

Just in case you forgot, this is still ISLAMIC board.
In addition to show that Islam is the truth (which most of the threads/sections show), we also want to show non-muslims that their faiths are not the truth (as part of our dakwah), and therefore in certain sections and threads, we make posts which highlight the untruthfullness of their faiths, which you may find a little offensive.

This statement declares who you are, how you understand yourself, your faith, and how in light of that understanding you understand others who are outside of it. Personally I find nothing offensive in such a declaration. If I am going to accept you as a person, I have to accept all of who you are, and that includes not just your faith with in God, but also your beliefs with regard to other people's faith. I might disagree with your statement as to what is and what is not truth. Still, I need to acknowledge that it is your truth and you understand it to not just be yours but THE truth. But that doesn't mean that I have to take offense at it, for while your words represent you understanding of that truth, I am under no compulsion to accept it as so. Again, in Woodrow's wise words, "we can agree to disagree." In the end, Allah, not you and not me, knows best.

Now compare that to another comment you made in the very same post.

such issues have been addressed conclusively in satisfying manner many times before

This comment again represents a declaration on your part of a particular view. But it goes beyond that. Because it now no longer addresses what you believe, but what you want me to believe as well. In this statement, you seeminlgy assert that your conclusion regarding my belief is not just your own opinion, but something which I have to accept as concluded, and done so in a satisfying manner. Well, what if I am unsatisfied?

It is entirely possible that what one person finds to be a satisfactory conclusion or satisfactory "proof" on some subject, is not held to be equally satisfactory, or even conclusive, to others. To say that from your point of view something has reached a satisfactory conclusion when it may not have done so from my point of view seem to me to be the exact opposite of agreeing to disagree. Rather, whether intended this way or not, it comes across as a subtle form of compulsion -- "it's my way or the highway", words no one is so crass as to literally express, but a feeling which is nonetheless projected by such assertions.

Now, naidamar, I don't use your post as a way of asserting that you are a major offender in this area. And I confess it is not just Muslim who present themselves this way. There has been more than one representative of my own faith that has offended me in this respect. Rather, I'm hoping to illustrate that even within a benigh post such as yours, there can be ideas projected that come across as offensive. Something you yourself recognized and addressed in the post. But the thing that we may be unaware of is that what you thought might be offensive was not, and what I'm sure you never thought would be actually contained elements that could be received that way. I tend to agree with others here who have said we need to be a little more tolerant of one another. And so I am not truly offended. But, what of those that make such posts declaring not only that they believe they have the truth, but that they have "proven" it, in the midst of what we euphamistically call "a debate"? Tolerance is a two-way street. Tolerance is not just not taking offence at another person's comment, it is recognizing that potential for offence in what we say and finding another way to say it.

 

[Woodrow]

Tolerance is a two-way street. Tolerance is not just not taking offence at another person's comment, it is recognizing that potential for offence in what we say and finding another way to say it.

I like that. Very true.

Tolerance is often misunderstood. Too often people think tolerance is a sign of weakness and to be tolerant means adopting and accepting what we oppose. To be tolerant requires considerable strength and a very strong hold on our own convictions. It is the recognition that other people do have views we may not agree with, but we acknowledge each others right to have their own right and if we challange those beliefs we agree to do so without, insult, malice or ridicule and do so with demonstratable facts or at least give a basis for our opinion. But, what we do not do or rather should not do is resort to personal attacks of the person. Tolerance is the ability to disagree in peace.

 

[جوري]

I doubt very much that any Muslim in here is after giving da3wa to the kaffirs on board.. If God saw good in some he'd have moved their heart toward light, but they remain in their ignorance and hostility for reasons too numerous to count here, which brings me to my original point which is that I'd rather have a homogeneous Islamic board or one where potential converts who have done some studying on their own come to clarify certain concepts.. What good is there at all in keeping someone like Hugo on board for instance you'll answer his queries a thousand different times and then he comes anew making a thread answering the same questions.. He not only didn't bother with your replies, but is adamant at perpetuating his willful ignorance in spite of massive evidence to the contrary by biblical scholars , metzger or Eherman etc.
yet doesn't seem in the least to exempt his person from going to a form on apostates to quote us the 'truth about Islam' he is unable to distinguish a scholar from a street rat and unable to subject his own beliefs and religion to some of what he expects from others..

to be honest with you I am completely appalled that someone would bring the banner of the crusades with their pagan and downright hateful pursuits to one of the few places on the web where his ilk shouldn't be allowed.. I mean isn't the web filled with that exact ignorance, that exact stupidity and that exact misinformation? If it were a simple case of clarifying misconceptions I would be welcoming it, but we all know that is not the case given his repeated history of posing questions already answered, and he isn't actually alone in that regard.. I suppose some believe that if they sugar coat their agenda enough, no one will see right through it!

A Muslim is clement that is true.. but also wise!

 

[Grace Seeker]

Lily, this very post is one that I believe produces the unwelcoming atmosphere I spoke of earlier. Just take a look at your opening sentence:

I doubt very much that any Muslim in here is after giving da3wa to the kaffirs on board.

Who are you referring to as "kaffir" and what do you mean by it? Those of us who are non-Muslims are going to be unfamiliar with the the term, at least initially. And we will pick up on it's meaning by the tone of your post. In your usage a kaffir appears to be someone whom you've identified as remaining in "ignorance and hostility". But when I go to an Islamic website that provides a glossary of Islamic terms, they present a different meaning to the term, certainly a different consonnance:

from Islamic-Dictionary.com

Kafir
Meaning:Generally the word kafir means 'unbeliever' and it is not meant as a derogatory label (unless it is used against Muslims by another Muslim). Of course, there are different levels of Kufur (disbelief) so although a person may be correctly identified as a kafir, that person is not kafir in the strongest sense of the word. Absolute kufur is the denial of God. Here are some examples of kufur:

(1) A person is known as a Kafir if they are disbelievers in Allah, in His Oneness, and in His final Messenger, Muhammad (SAW). (E.g. An apostate from Islam)
(2) A 'Muslim' who disbelieves in a necessary tenant of Islam like the 5 pillars or some other things is known as a disbeliever.
(3) An originally non-Muslim person who denies the religion of Islam while knowing in his heart that it is true.
(4) A disbeliever in Islam only because they originally follow another (monotheistic) faith.
(5) A person who follows another (monotheistic) faith and knows nothing about Islam.
(6) A person who believes in many gods (polytheist).
(7) An agnostic who is a monotheist is a lesser kafir than a polytheist.
(8) An Atheist - ultimate kufur.

Generally a Christian or Jew is not identified as a kafir but they are known respectfully as Ahlul kitab - People of the Book(s), and Islam considers their religions valid but once they find Islam they are expected to follow the updated covenant sent by God.
True Form:كافر Grammar:word;
Explanation:وَإِذْ قُلْنَا لِلْمَلاَئِكَةِ اسْجُدُواْ لآدَمَ فَسَجَدُواْ إِلاَّ إِبْلِيسَ أَبَى وَاسْتَكْبَرَ وَكَانَ مِنَ الْكَافِرِينَ

And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith. [Quran 2.34]

Notice the use of the word 'kafireen' in the Arabic. This is one of the reasons why one must learn Arabic to understand the full meaning of the Quran, the words of Allah. Kafir is derived from the word meaning 'to cover' and Kafir also means 'disbeliever in God'. But in this case, Iblees (Satan) is fully aware of Gods' existence and power yet he is still described as a kafir! This goes to show that a person can be a kafir even if he believes in a God. In other words, just because someone believes there is a God, that someone can still be a kafir and be (technically) condemned to hell. Therefore, a kafir can be more correctly defined as someone who 'rejects submission to God' even though he is fully aware of His existence, as well as meaning a person who is a true Atheist - one who 'rejects the existence of God'.

Now according to this a kaffir is simply an unbeliever. It is not a derogatory term. Yet, it is hard to imagine that one would not understand being called a person remaining in "ignorance and hostility" as non-derogatory. And, if the quoted website is to be believed as accurate, the use of the term kaffir is not the general way to address Christians: "Christian or Jew is not identified as a kafir but they are known respectfully as Ahlul kitab - People of the Book(s), and Islam considers their religions valid", yet your post takes one Christian, Hugo, personally to task in a post unrespectful way.

In other words, the words you use, and the derisive way in which you use them, are NOT in accord with what one learns about Islam elsewhere. And such invectives (whether originating from you toward Hugo or some other Christians, or them toward you or some other Muslim) is what I believe contributes to the level of antipathy that exists in some portions of this board. It is not enough that name calling and personal attacks are against the forum's rules, the visceral nature of communication between individual forumites (e.g., see the immediate above communication directed toward Titus) needs to become more respectful overall.

 

[جوري]

Who are you referring to as "kaffir" and what do you mean by it? .

I don't believe that my post needs any clarifications, it is very straightforward!

all the best

 

[glo]

To keep this from becoming a problem or an issue, perhaps we all need to be certain that we keep discussions about faiths other than Islam in the comparative religion section. Fortunately most members already do that. We all also need to be aware that religious discussions are often very emotional in nature and are probably the most difficult area to debate. This is the area most in need for us to be mindful that we focus on the topic and not on the person posting.

That's a good point, Woodrow.

I am in the habit of replying to posts as they appear new on the top of the main forum page. That means that I don't always make myself aware of the forum section the post has been posted in.
I should make sure I know which section I am in, as this might affect what I write in my reply.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Salaam/Peace
but u did it in a very negative way. If u think someone is rude and if u behave with him/her rudely , then you are guilty of the same mistake.

Muslim Woman's point is well taken.

Grace Seeker,

τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ (aka Gossamer Sky) is one of those examples of hostile Muslims that have been referred to on this thread. To her, unfortunately, there is no such thing as civil disagreement, and to her everyone is either a good guy (Muslim) or bad guy (non-Muslims, especially Jews). Her method of debate is basically to insult whoever disagrees with her and sadly nothing is going to change that.

I've known Lily (aka Skye) on these forums for better than 4 years. I said what I have said with reference to specific comments which I think could have been better stated. I will not stoop to saying that she simply "insults whoever disagrees with her". It may appear that way at times, but I have also seen other facets of her personality expressed. Over the years she and I have disagreed many times, but if you look above, she did not insult me. So, your statement with regard to her character is just as broad sweeping (and, in my opinion, therefore unhelpful) as that which she stands (with some reason) accused of.

As she said, she made her point, it was rather straight forward. It does not need further comment, for it stands for all to see and read (and I suppose, judge) for themselves.

I would ask for more tolerance from her -- comments like "is it common for non-Muslims to be dense and in need of a broken down distillate" are (IMO) rude and incidiary. But I would also ask for tolerance of her -- most of those who have animous relationships with her have made as many comments directed at her as they have received from her. I don't think she is the bad guy here. Rather, it is intolerance that we have to fight, not one another.

Budda, Jesus, Mohammad (going alphabetical order here) and simple common sense teach us that we should treat others they way we would like to be treated ourselves. As a Christian, I believe that I apply that teaching by unilaterally practicing it in my own life; whether others follow suit is irrelevant to my actions. And the consequence thereof are for God, not me, to dispense.

If I were to post the personal exchanges that Lily and I have had over the years, you might be surprised to learn, but I am happy to tell you, that some of the most gracious PM comments I have received have been from the very one of whom you have claimed: "If you want an example of her insulting someone simply find any thread in which she responds to a non-Muslim in any way." I have seen that, but I have also seen:

"It was my pleasure to correspond with you. I just woke up a bit grouchy :-\ and I shouldn't let that cloud or affect my judgment and the way I deal with others."
and
"G-D bless you and guide you unto the path of the righteous. drop in whenever, I enjoy hearing from you very much..."

Such comments are anything but insulting.

There is more to most of us than what we see in each other's posts. God created all of us good -- that we don't always show that side of ourselves is reason to work on improvement. But it is there in each and everyone of us. And I am happy to testify to having seen it, and seen it repeatedly, in Lily. My critique of her above posts is not a diminuation of her, but of the tone with which she wrote. We all do that from time to time, myself included, and as such I suspect it is an area in which we could all, not just one or two highlighed individuals, stand to do some growing.

 

[Woodrow]

Communication from one human to another is often a very difficult task. It is further complicated when there is cultural differences, more complex if their is a gender difference.

Perhaps the Aboriginal people of Tierra d'el Fuego had the right idea.

adult women and adult males spoke totally different languages and neither was permitted to learn the language of the other. Might have made for a dull life, but arguments were very rare.

A part of tolerance is for each of us to accept that other people will use different methods of emphasis.

 

[Woodrow]

For future reference if any member finds any post offensive. Use the report button and DO NOT RESPOND to the post. Let the mods earn their keep and make them be the one who determines if a post is offensive. Once replies are made, we have little options except to delete the offending and all following posts, close the thread, delete the thread or just let things be and hope peace will prevail.

 

[جوري]

For future reference if any member finds any post offensive. Use the report button and DO NOT RESPOND to the post. Let the mods earn their keep and make them be the one who determines if a post is offensive. Once replies are made, we have little options except to delete the offending and all following posts, close the thread, delete the thread or just let things be and hope peace will prevail.

what good would that do to assert the presence of the ignorant who desire to run amok like street rats, vulgar and perpetuating false rumors while extricating themselves from wrong doing without having to pay a visit to a psychiatrist to purge their souls of their hatred for some payments? The 'dignified' approach is no style for the kuffar.. they prefer their all too frequent carpet bombing, and pretty soon would like a board of this caliber to preserve their linear existence!


there is no point extending ourselves to folks who simply don't deserve any form of hospitality.. if they don't like it here, they don't have to be members here!