Just heard this on the news.
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Just heard this on the news.
Salaam
More food for thought
Osama bin Laden dead: justice or vengeance?
President Obama claims bin Laden's death means justice. But it does not. Regardless of bin Laden's death, as long as the deadly US wars continue in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, and beyond, justice has not been done.
by Phyllis Bennis
US agents killed Osama bin Laden in Pakistan, apparently without cooperation from the government in Islamabad. The al-Qaeda leader was responsible for great suffering; I do not mourn his death. But every action has causes and consequences, and in the current moment all are dangerous.
It's unlikely that bin Laden's killing will have much impact on the already weakened capacity of al-Qaeda, which is widely believed to be made up of only a couple hundred fighters between Afghanistan and Pakistan – though its effect on other terrorist forces is uncertain. Pakistan itself may pay a particularly high price.
As President Barack Obama described it, "After a firefight, they killed Osama bin Laden." Assuming that was indeed the case, this raid reflects the brutal reality of the deadly wars in Afghanistan and Iraq that preceded it and that continue today, 10 years later – it wasn't about bringing anyone to justice, it was about vengeance.
And given the enormous human costs still being paid by Afghans, Iraqis, Pakistanis, and others in the US wars waged in the name of capturing bin Laden, it's particularly ironic that in the end it wasn't the shock-and-awe airstrikes or invasions of ground troops, but rather painstaking police work – careful investigation, cultivating intelligence sources – that made possible the realization of that goal.
President Obama acknowledged that the post-9/11 unity of the people of the United States "has at times frayed." But he didn't mention that that unity had actually collapsed completely within 24 hoUSof the horrifying attacks on the twin towers. September 11, 2001 didn't "change the world;" the world was changed on September 12, when George W. Bush announced his intention to take the world to war in response. That was the moment that the actual events of 9/11, a crime against humanity that killed nearly 3,000 people, were left behind and the "global war on terror" began. That war has brought years of war, devastation and destruction to hundreds of thousands around the world, in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and beyond.
There was an unprecedented surge of unity, of human solidarity, in response to the crime of 9/11. In the United States much of that response immediately took on a jingoistic and xenophobic frame (some of which showed up again last night in the aggressive chants of "USA, USA!!" from flag-waving, cheering crowds oUSde the White House following President Obama's speech). Some of it was overtly militaristic, racist and Islamophobic. But some really did reflect a level of human unity unexpected and rare in US history. Even internationally, solidarity with the US people for a brief moment replaced the well-deserved global anger at US arrogance, wars, and drive towards empire. In France, headlines proclaimed "nous sommes tous Américaines maintenant." We are all Americans now.
But that human solidarity was short-lived. It was destroyed by the illegal wars that shaped the US response to the 9/11 crime. Those wars quickly created numbers of victims far surpassing the 3,000 killed on September 11. The lives of millions more around the world were transformed in the face of US aggression – in Pakistan alone, where a US military team assassinated bin Laden, thousands of people have been killed and maimed by US drone strikes and the suicide bombs that are part of the continuing legacy of the US war.
These wars have brought too much death and destruction. Too many people have died and too many children have been orphaned for the United States to claim, as President Obama's triumphantly did, that "justice has been done" because one man, however symbolically important, has been killed. However one calculates when and how "this fight" actually began, the US government chose how to respond to 9/11. And that response, from the beginning, was one of war and vengeance – not of justice.
The president's speech last night could have aimed to put an end to the triumphalism of the "global war on terror" that George W. Bush began and Barack Obama claimed as his own. It could have announced a new US foreign policy based on justice, equality, and respect for other nations. But it did not. It declared instead that the US war in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, and beyond will continue.
In that reaffirmation of war, President Obama reasserted the American exceptionalism that has been a hallmark of his recent speeches, claiming that "America can do whatever we set our mind to." He equated the US ability and willingness to continue waging ferocious wars, with earlier accomplishments of the US – including, without any trace of irony, the "struggle for equality for all our citizens." In President Obama's iteration, the Global War on Terror apparently equals the anti-slavery and civil rights movements.
Today, the Arab Spring is on the rise across the Middle East and North Africa. It's ineffably sad that President Obama, in his claim that bin Laden's death means justice, didn't use the opportunity to announce the end of the deadly US wars that answered the attacks of 9/11. This could have been a moment to replace vengeance with cooperation, replace war with justice.
But it was not. Regardless of bin Laden's death, as long as those deadly US wars continue in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, and beyond, justice has not been done.
http://www.stopwar.org.uk/index.php/...e-or-vengeance
Short succint video on the legacy of the Americas so called 'war on terror'
LOL... hardly. It's easy to claim what people would have done once there no possibility of them actually having to do it!format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
I know America was able to do that ( I am an innate soldier of mind forces ). But such a thing should have been prevented in favor of MIC. ( For further information Military-Industrial Complex Speech, Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961 )format_quote Originally Posted by Futuwwa
Demons? About what? I just find it so desperately sad so many seem concerned about the how and why of the welcome demise of this psychotic lunatic when 500 or more innocents are slaughtered by army in Syria over the last week and nobody gives a d*mn. But, as with Darfur, nobody has a problem with muslims being massacred if other muslims are doing it, right?format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
Anyway, I see Osama's buddies aren't into prayer and prefer mourning his death in their own inimitable fashion;
SourceA bomb exploded near a mosque in northwest Pakistan on Monday killing a woman and three children, just hours after the United States said it killed Osama bin Laden near the capital.
I wonder if they'll get 'mass prayers' too? Don't worry unduly, though. I'm sure if you try hard enough you'll convince yourself it was a 'false flag' operation soon enough.
What do you know of what the heart grieves over your delusional hippie? It is completely none of your business who weeps for whom.?format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
If only your disgusting Govt. along with its allies weren't particularly pleased with the despots of the middle east I am sure NATO wouldn't be 'accidentally' bombing civilians of whom one was a young doctor. What would you know about that when you're too busy cracking champagne corks and celebrating the death of 'lunatics'
I don't know what this means, I can do without the sophomoric commentary!Anyway, I see Osama's buddies aren't into prayer and prefer mourning his death in their own inimitable fashion;
I am sure a coronation of a next villain is soon to take place after the next big bomb presents in a metropolitan city near you, we can almost time such events by the popularity ratings of western despots.Source
I wonder if they'll get 'mass prayers' too? Don't worry unduly, though. I'm sure if you try hard enough you'll convince yourself it was a 'false flag' operation soon enough.
You're pitiful beyond description!
HE DIDNT DIE ON MAY THE 1ST
December 26, 2001 Vol 15 No 4633
News of Bin Laden’s Death and Funeral 10 days ago
Islamabad -
A prominent official in the Afghan Taleban movement announced yesterday the death of Osama bin Laden, the chief of al-Qa’da organization, stating that binLaden suffered serious complications in the lungs and died a natural and quiet death.
http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=16352
18 July, 2002
The US Federal Bureau of Investigation's counter-terrorism chief, Dale Watson, says he thinks Osama bin Laden is "probably" dead.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/2135473.stm
October 7 2002
Osama bin Laden is "probably" dead, but former Taliban leader Mullah Omar is alive, Afghan President Hamid Karzai has said. "I would come to believe that [bin Laden] probably is dead
http://edition.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/as...rzai.binladen/
October 16, 2002
TEL AVIV — Osama Bin Laden appears to be dead but his colleagues have decided that Al Qaida and its insurgency campaign against the United States will continue, Israeli intelligence sources said.
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index....;topic=32397.0
11th September 2009
Prof Codevilla pointed to inconsistencies in the videos and claimed there have been no reputable sightings of Bin Laden for years (for instance, all interceptions by the West of communications made by the Al Qaeda leader suddenly ceased in late 2001).
This week, still more questions have been raised with the publication in America and Britain of a book called Osama Bin Laden: Dead or Alive?
Written by political analyst and philosopher Professor David Ray Griffin, former emeritus professor at California's Claremont School of Theology, it is provoking shock waves - for it goes into far more detail about his supposed death and suggests there has been a cover-up by the West.
The book claims that Bin Laden died of kidney failure, or a linked complaint, on December 13, 2001, while living in Afghanistan's Tora Bora mountains close to the border with Waziristan.
In his book, Professor Griffin also endorses this theory. He says Bin Laden was treated for a urinary infection, often linked to kidney disease, at the American Hospital in Dubai in July 2001, two months before 9/11. At the same time, he ordered a mobile dialysis machine to be delivered to Afghanistan.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1LBoets9i
Last edited by Cabdullahi; 05-06-2011 at 01:37 AM.
But I do, I have seen men and women killed because they asked us for medical supplies you can't think these acts are ok can you?format_quote Originally Posted by Chavun
The US government believed that the indians were inferior to the white man and should either be exterminated, present day I am an indian and was a staff sergeant in the marines. I think I know what you were trying to do with that line but you can't really think the US is trying to exterminate the Afghans because they think they are inferior.format_quote Originally Posted by Chavun
format_quote Originally Posted by Chavun
Eisenhower single handedly prolonged the war by two years by refusing a surrender by almost the entire SS. during the war he let the airforce drop napalm on german civilians. After the war he put german pows in prison camps where seven million died. He then put false information into the nuremburg trial, Patton was going to tell the president but then he had a freak accident. Then he was the first president to put troops in vietnam after the golf of tonkin incident that they now admit never happened. That speech is probably the biggest piece of hypocracy ever written.
I can't capture everything committed by some human beings, Every species have some innate abilities in the name of savageness or wildness, Islam had decreased the effects of barbarism in Taliban and they had limited themselves, I mean there is still old production techniques in killing, one, four, ten children only. But some Civil societies use modern methods, They invade a whole country and cause deaths of hundreds of thousands children in order to bring democracy ( Democracy is a kind of three apes game ). That topic is not related what I say here. I respect your ancestors , especially warrior ones against democracy bearers.format_quote Originally Posted by LavaDog
If Us government believed in that way. Why we need to judge, They can make mistakes and They can apologize later ( hundred years later ), I think US don't try to exterminate the Afghans too, They indirectly try to raise drug production only or They love warm mountains. ( I don't know maybe They want to give medical supplies for executed ones by taliban )format_quote Originally Posted by LavaDog
format_quote Originally Posted by LavaDog
Thank you for further information about well known American habit, Even some presidents can lie easily or try to deceive courts, My advice is don't trust too much in american presidents. We were comparing america to USSR before, now to taliban, Great enemy with its complex nature and historical roots. If Taliban do wrong, American can make too, Why We judge. Power is right. By the way I have hope, America will come to its sense.
Last edited by Chavundur; 05-06-2011 at 02:58 AM. Reason: grammar
the reason someone referred you to Ike was his farewell address. if there was a link, you should watch it. if not, google it.format_quote Originally Posted by LavaDog
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
Right an eisenhower played a role in both.
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
YeahI typed that fast, I caught that as soon as I posted it. I ment he was the first to send troops in with with the french which led up to tonkin. I have read and heard the adress but what I pointed out was listening to him on the dangers of the military industrial complex is like taking advice from hitler or stalin on why not to kill jews.
and the latest twists on the raid:format_quote Originally Posted by LavaDog
"bin Laden's" "hideout" NOT 1.5 million bucks, MAYBE 225Gs!
and there was a signal blackout DURING the raid! maybe everyone in the CP was watching Jerry Springer?
Is your name titus? are you an american?format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
The reason I asked Titus is that he is an american and has president who behaves similar to the image presented by the west of Osama: Justice at all costs.
Then surely you should be glad if every american president is slain, no?format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
What makes you think Osama, oops, Obama any different than Bush?format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Obama is still continuing occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan which result in the killings of civilian lives every single day. Although they call it "collateral damage" of course. As presented by western sources, al qaeda calls it "jihad", the US calls it "fighting for democracy".
The difference is of course muslims are not responsible for what "al qaeda" is doing, while american citizens supposedly democratically elect their government and hence partly responsible for what their government is doing.
Last edited by Ramadhan; 05-06-2011 at 04:08 AM.
format_quote Originally Posted by Chavun
Ok this is the stuff that bugs me. It seems any and all killing by the west is always evil but any and all killing by the taliban is easily reconciled with. You pretty much just wrote that the taliban is the lesser of two evils since they only kill a dozen or so at a time. I dont remember if it was you or not but a few pages back in this thread someone said Osama probably felt really bad about all the innocent people that have died. i just dont see how you can justify some of the things they do.
format_quote Originally Posted by Chavun
Im not sure what you mean by this exactly. Are you saying it is ok or not? Is that not what muslims have always done, bide their time until they have enough power to take over and then say Allah is just and powerful. Dont get me wrong when they do the situation for all improved but its still power is right.
Were you in the raid?format_quote Originally Posted by Futuwwa
The latest news coming out is that Osama was unarmed, so how did he resist " violently and with lethal force"?
Al-Qaeda leader Osama Bin Laden was unarmed when he was killed by US troops on Sunday after resisting capture, the White House has said.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13274176format_quote Originally Posted by Futuwwa
If allegations and accusations against Osama were true, then Osama is not just a "warrior", he is responsible for death of thousands of civilians, surely he deserves war crime trials?
Even all hitler henchmen, yugoslavia "warriors", saddam hussein, etc were not just killed.
It is obvious that the sommand for the special forces was to kill Obama on spot. oops, osama I meant.
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
interesting I will watch it but eight hours will take some time. Probably eight hours.
I made a big deal out of the eisenhower thing because I cant stand how much we white wash the history of people we like. Even if the guy was like kennedy and held hostage by the powers that be he was still a mass murderer. We give hitler a total of 6 million now days jews and the rest included so with the killing of seven million I guess he is worse than Hitler. I dont want to take advice on a run away military from a mass murdering general.format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
Yes you're right. It was Khalid. Hamzah is the younger one, no?format_quote Originally Posted by zÂk
I don't justify Taliban. Taliban is the result of unfortunate cold war history process under extraordinary circumstances, can not be compared to an organized, institutionalized government like America. They defeated communism in Afganistan, They fights against another occupant now. As far as I understand They are not killing children regularly, I don't make a generalization because there is no enough reason to do that.format_quote Originally Posted by LavaDog
Why would We judge actions of America ? It has power, so It is right. Actually at this point America screwed up everything. We believe in that balance of justice is over sensitive, If you make an injustice, that makes you deserve a straight punishment. There is no need for a further discussion Geronimo. ( That's not an operation code used in Pakistan five days ago). What I claim here is that America doesn't act like a Government.
Osama Bin Laden has been killed but Allah's word is still superior!
As-Salāmu `Alaykum (السلام عليكم):
There is nothing that can be posted to change the minds of those who consider Osama Bin Laden a Martyr and a Mujahidin and those who consider him a Muslim that disobeyed Allah's commands by directing the killings of innocent women, children and non combantants. The posts only highlight the the mindset of both positions. A treasure trove of information.
Those practicing Muslims continue to realize the word of Allah continues. Everyone will taste death. A promise from Allah.
Al-Imran (The Family of Imran) 3:185
كُلُّ نَفْسٍ ذَآئِقَةُ الْمَوْتِ وَإِنَّمَا تُوَفَّوْنَ أُجُورَكُمْ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ فَمَن زُحْزِحَ عَنِ النَّارِ وَأُدْخِلَ الْجَنَّةَ فَقَدْ فَازَ وَما الْحَيَاةُ الدُّنْيَا إِلاَّ مَتَاعُ الْغُرُورِ (3:185)Kullu nafsin thaiqatu almawti wainnama tuwaffawna ojoorakum yawma alqiyamati faman zuhziha AAani alnnari waodkhila aljannata faqad faza wama alhayatu alddunya illa mataAAu alghuroori
3:185 (Y. Ali) Every soul shall have a taste of death: And only on the Day of Judgment shall you be paid your full recompense. Only he who is saved far from the Fire and admitted to the Garden will have attained the object (of Life): For the life of this world is but goods and chattels of deception.
__________________________________________________ ___________________________--
Al-Imran (The Family of Imran) 3:144
وَمَا مُحَمَّدٌ إِلاَّ رَسُولٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِن قَبْلِهِ الرُّسُلُ أَفَإِن مَّاتَ أَوْ قُتِلَ انقَلَبْتُمْ عَلَى أَعْقَابِكُمْ وَمَن يَنقَلِبْ عَلَىَ عَقِبَيْهِ فَلَن يَضُرَّ اللّهَ شَيْئًا وَسَيَجْزِي اللّهُ الشَّاكِرِينَ (3:144)Wama muhammadun illa rasoolun qad khalat min qablihi alrrusulu afain mata aw qutila inqalabtum AAala aAAqabikum waman yanqalib AAala AAaqibayhi falan yadurra Allaha shayan wasayajzee Allahu alshshakireena
3:144 (Y. Ali) Muhammad is no more than an apostle: many Were the apostle that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then Turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah. but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapc...omment/?hpt=T1
Al Qaeda, in Web message, confirms bin Laden's death
Al Qaeda released a statement on jihadist forums Friday confirming the death of its leader, Osama bin Laden, according to SITE Intelligence Group, which monitors Islamist websites.
The development comes days after U.S. troops killed bin Laden in a raid on a compound in the Pakistani city of Abbottabad.
The statement, translated by SITE, lauded the late militant, threatened to take action against the United States, and urged Pakistanis to "rise up and revolt."
Bin Laden's death will serve as a "curse that chases the Americans and their agents, and goes after them inside and outside their countries," the message said.
"Soon -- with help from Allah -- their happiness will turn into sorrow, and their blood will be mixed with their tears," it said.
The statement said al Qaeda will "continue on the path of jihad, the path walked upon by our leaders, and on top of them" bin Laden "without hesitation or reluctance.
"We will not deviate from that or change until Allah judges between us and between our enemy with truth. Indeed, He is the best of all judges. Nothing will harm us after that, until we see either victory and success and conquest and empowerment, or we die trying."
It said that Americans "will never enjoy security until our people in Palestine enjoy it."
"The soldiers of Islam, groups and individuals, will continue planning without tiredness or boredom, and without despair or surrender, and without weakness or stagnancy, until they cause the disaster that makes children look like the elderly!"
It urged Pakistanis "to cleanse this shame that has been attached to them by a clique of traitors and thieves" and "from the filth of the Americans who spread corruption in it."
Bin Laden and other militants used the Internet to post messages to their followers before and after al Qaeda's September, 11, 2001 attack on the United States.
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