No, because it isn't true. The claim Christians worship three gods is an ignorant claim made by people who do not understand our faith, or are making lies about it.
And you've asserted that claim in your description of your gods!
format_quote Originally Posted by TG123
I'm not the one who goes around swearing and posting up pictures of apes.
Ah, but you respond to it in kind and you twist its meaning.. is that the love your three gods taught you?
format_quote Originally Posted by TG123
Nope. One God who exists and reveals Himself in three ways- as the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit. He created us and called us children as the Father, then came down to earth to live among us as the Son, and remains the the hearts of the believers as the Holy Spirit. Why do you call us 'charlatans'? Do I use such terms to describe Muslims?
God had many children, why should Jesus be worshiped out of all of them? hmm?
He that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. -- John 3:18 God sent his only begotten son into the world. -- 1 John 4:9Adam was also God's son. Adam, which was the son of God. Luke 3:38Some of God's sons had sex with women producing a race of giants. That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. ... There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them. -- Genesis 6:2-4Satan and his companions were sons of God. The sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them. Job 1:6 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. -- Job 2:1God's sons were present when the universe was created. Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? -- Job 38:6-7Christians are God's sons. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God. -- John 1:12
even Satan is God' son? Saul/Paul was a charlatan indeed I have no other description for him- Also, I have already asserted whatever terms you use or believe in your heart about Muslims don't aggrieve me. Your opinion and feelings don't matter to me and I'll not exchange lies and hypocrisy for you to have a favorable view of Muslims!
format_quote Originally Posted by TG123
Maybe not to you. The idea of God existing is not logically coherent to most atheists either. That doesn't mean it isn't true.
That's not a rebuttal. If you had something substantive you'd have presented it!
format_quote Originally Posted by TG123
Na'am!
Then prove it, don't cower behind words especially that per your intro. came here to evangelize!
format_quote Originally Posted by TG123
You think it is appropriate to compare people who don't agree with you to monkeys? Really?
Anyone who will reference back to the pic will know exactly the meaning behind it and see you displaying that behavior whether an elephant in the photo or a martian so move on already you've milked it enough!
John 10:30 "I (Jesus) and the Father are One." This verse is severely misunderstood and is taken out of context,
These verses prove only that Jesus and the Father are one in that no man can pluck the sheep out of either's hand. Father is holding something in his hand and son is also holding something and no one can pull it of of eithers hand , are the father and son the same person ?
Given the fact that John 1 says Jesus is God, John 10:30 I believe means that both Jesus and the Father are one God. This is something much more than saying they are one in essence.
Does the Quran (or Old Testament for that matter) have any record of any prophet saying that he and God are one? If that means what you suggest it does, why did not Muhammad or Moses or Abraham or Noah or the many other prophets ever state such a thing?
format_quote Originally Posted by Predator
It does not at all state that Jesus is God's equal in everything. In fact the words of Jesus, " My Father, who gave them me is Greater than ALL...," in John 10:29 completely negates this claim, otherwise we are left with a contradiction just a sentence apart. 29 Jesus says the Father is greater than ALL, this obviously includes Jesus since he is not the Father. So therefore how you try and assume that this verse shows equality between Jesus and the Father is beyond me.
Let's look at this in more context.
John 10:22-30 22 At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. 24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
Jesus says the Father is greater than all. Then He says He and the Father are one. Would imply that like the Father, Jesus is greater than all. Who is greater than all? Allah. God.
format_quote Originally Posted by Predator
In fact this is not the first time that Jesus says the Father is greater than him, he does it again later:
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I (John 14:28)
So here we once again have Jesus claiming the Father is greater than him, so how is Jesus equal to the Father when Jesus says the contrary?
However so what did Jesus mean in John 10 when Jesus said the Father is greater than ALL? Jesus placed himself in the category of ALL people,
1-The fact is that the Bible shows that the Father is greater than Jesus in essence, the Father is all-knowing and Jesus is not.
2-The Father gives Jesus everything from miracle to doctrine.
3-Jesus begs the Father to save him, obviously showing that life and death is controlled by the Father and NOT Jesus.
In Philippians, this is explained quite nicely. Jesus the Son voluntarily made Himself inferior to the Father. Philippians 2:5-11 5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross! 9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
Also, while on earth, Jesus was both God and man. His human nature which He adopted voluntarily did not know. As the Son, God made Himself human and God. As the Father, He remained and remains purely God.
format_quote Originally Posted by Predator
The Bible says: "No man hath seen God at any time," John 1:18
Again watch reason 8 in the video
[09:20]Reason #08 - No one has seen God!
Jesus said this to people before revealing that those who have seen Him have seen the Father. Like a good teacher, He allowed His students to get close to a finding before He revealed it. He didn’t tell people right away that He is God and He didn’t say so directly. He allowed them to figure it out.
format_quote Originally Posted by Predator
The Bible says:
Jesus does everything according to will of the God, for instance Jesus does not do things according to what he thinks or feels, rather he does things which is in line with God's will. So when Jesus does judge the people, Jesus judges the people in line with God's will, not his own, as Jesus himself says:
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. (John 5:30)
Again, Philippians 2:5-11 explains this. He made Himself inferior to the Father. Both He and the Father are God.
format_quote Originally Posted by Predator
The Bible says:
So when Jesus Judges the people, he judges them not according to his own judgement, rather he judges the people according to God's will. Hence you can already see that it is already God who is in real control, not Jesus, because Jesus simply judges on God's will. For instance in Islam we believe the prophet Muhammad will intercede for the believers, yet the prophet Muhammad is given the right to intercede, and he can only intercede for those who have been given permission to be interceded for, and those who can be saved by his intercession can only be saved by God's will and permission, hence in reality all the power of intercession is in God's hand, the prophet Muhammad is simply having the honour and blessing of carrying the task out.
The same goes for Jesus, he will be judge, but he is given the right to judge, and he can only judge those who have been given permission to be judged by God, and his judgement cannot be his own personal judgement but rather must be in line with God's will, hence in reality all judgement is with God and not with Jesus.
There is a difference between Jesus and Muhammad in this sense though. Islam believes, as you just correctly stated, that Muhammad will intercede for people God has allowed him permission to intercede for.
Matthew 25:31-49 says that Jesus will be judge. He will decide who goes to heaven and who goes to hell.
That position is one only God can make, do you not agree? Islam states Muhammad will intercede for believers, but who will decide who goes to heaven (or paradise) and who goes to hell? Only God.
Muhammad passed judgements on people on earth, would it however not be heresy to believe that he will be seated on a throne when the world comes to be judged, and he will assign to people heaven or hell?
format_quote Originally Posted by Predator
The Bible says:
This is exactly why Jesus said the following:
I judge no man. (John 8:15)
How can Jesus judge no man when he says he will judge people? Is this a contradiction? Not really, the reason he says he judges no man is because of the explanation I gave above, it all fits the picture. Yes, Jesus will judge people, but he is given permission to judge, it is not his own right and power, and on top of that Jesus will judge people according to God's will, not his own, hence in reality all judgement is with God, not Jesus, and this is precisely why Jesus eventually says he judges no man.
Jesus chose not to judge people while He was on earth. He will not judge until the Day of Judgement. Does God in Islam assign people to heaven or hell while they are still alive? Do you believe He does?
No, He lets people live their lives and make the choices and choose whether they will follow Him or not. As many theological differences as we have, that is hopefully something we can agree on. Once a person dies, that is it.
Likewise with Jesus. He did not judge anyone while on this earth. In fact, He did the opposite- He forgave the people who were mocking Him as He hung on the cross.
People have their whole life to choose to believe in Him and follow Him.
Then they die.
Given the fact that John 1 says Jesus is God, John 10:30 I believe means that both Jesus and the Father are one God. This is something much more than saying they are one in essence.
Does the Quran (or Old Testament for that matter) have any record of any prophet saying that he and God are one? If that means what you suggest it does, why did not Muhammad or Moses or Abraham or Noah or the many other prophets ever state such a thing?
Firstly you must establish credibility for the bible- you've not done that. We've pointed out contradictions and lack of coherence and you ignored that and then alas you have come and dug your own hole for yourself by pointing out how much different the god of the bible is and how deviant from the monotheistic message that has always existed. So in fact you should be posing that question to your own person and find an honest answer.
format_quote Originally Posted by TG123
Then He judges them. He is Allah.
God doesn't die and God is one.. why are your beliefs better than those of Hindus? they too pray to multiple gods and then have one all powerful god that presides over lesser gods. You need to sign up for some courses on how to debate, I don't think any of us are even exerting minimal effort the absurdity of the stuff you write.
best,
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Somebody ought to split this thread.. evangies have a way of hijacking everything to their sob stories.. Afghan women slaughter all of a sudden turns into a story about man/god
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
And you've asserted that claim in your description of your gods!
Please copy and paste my words where I assert I worship more than one God.
format_quote Originally Posted by منوة الخيال
Ah, but you respond to it in kind and you twist its meaning.. is that the love your three gods taught you?
You were the one who began by throwing insults at me and my faith. I pointed out how stupid your attacks on me and my beliefs are. At times, after several of your attacks, I got annoyed and responded in a sarcastic and unkind manner. I don't feel bad about saying these things about your assertions, but it was wrong to do what you did to me and make personal attacks. I am sorry about that. I will make an effort to respond to your attacks if you continue to make them by pointing out how false and senseless they are, but not attack you as a person. I have nothing against you personally.
There are Muslim posters on this forum who also disagree with Christianity and are able to express their questions in a respectful, intelligent, and well researched manner. You can do the same if you want to.
format_quote Originally Posted by منوة الخيال
God had many children, why should Jesus be worshiped out of all of them? hmm?
He that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. -- John 3:18 God sent his only begotten son into the world. -- 1 John 4:9Adam was also God's son. Adam, which was the son of God. Luke 3:38Some of God's sons had sex with women producing a race of giants. That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. ... There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them. -- Genesis 6:2-4Satan and his companions were sons of God. The sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them. Job 1:6 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. -- Job 2:1God's sons were present when the universe was created. Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? -- Job 38:6-7Christians are God's sons. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God. -- John 1:12
even Satan is God' son?
Neither Adam or anyone you mentioned except Jesus is God's begotten Son. Also, none of them were worshipped. None of them said that he and the Father are one, or that who has seen him has seen the Father. No one of them made the claim they will judge the nations on the Day of Judgement.
Jesus did.
format_quote Originally Posted by منوة الخيال
Saul/Paul was a charlatan indeed I have no other description for him- Also, I have already asserted whatever terms you use or believe in your heart about Muslims don't aggrieve me. Your opinion and feelings don't matter to me and I'll not exchange lies and hypocrisy for you to have a favorable view of Muslims!
I believe Muslims are people created in the image and likeness of God, people who He loves so much that He came down and died for you on the cross. I believe Muslims are misguided in your beliefs. I respect much of what Islam teaches, but a lot of it I believe is wrong. I will post more on that as soon as I am allowed to post links on the forum.
You said you believe Paul was a charlatan, yet you seem upset about the garbage movie made about Muhammad where he is falsely portrayed as a deluded fool and a pedophile (as I heard, I had not watched it). That sounds pretty hypocritical to me.
format_quote Originally Posted by منوة الخيال
That's not a rebuttal. If you had something substantive you'd have presented it!
You said my beliefs are illogical. I responded by saying belief in God is illogical to atheists too.
If you want me to respond with more, show me how my arguments are illogical. Blanket statements get blanket responses.
format_quote Originally Posted by منوة الخيال
Then prove it, don't cower behind words especially that per your intro. came here to evangelize!
A person who misunderstands Islam would claim you are polytheists, because he or she would falsely believe that you believe the 99 attributes of God = 99 gods. A person who misunderstands Christianity (such as yourself) would falsely believe that God who reveals Himself as three persons = 3 gods.
Both are misunderstandings.
format_quote Originally Posted by منوة الخيال
Anyone who will reference back to the pic will know exactly the meaning behind it and see you displaying that behavior whether an elephant in the photo or a martian so move on already you've milked it enough!
Please copy and paste my words where I assert I worship more than one God.
Your words are irrelevant, we're discussing your core tenets to which you subscribe. If you can't do math, that's nobody's problem but yours!
format_quote Originally Posted by TG123
You were the one who began by throwing insults at me and my faith.
I have done no such thing and is the love of your god contingent on being met in kind?
format_quote Originally Posted by TG123
I pointed out how stupid your attacks on me and my beliefs are. At times, after several of your attacks, I got annoyed and responded in a sarcastic and unkind manner
That's your mannerism in general and congruent with what we understand of your beliefs. Saying one thing then there's always a hidden agenda!
format_quote Originally Posted by TG123
Neither Adam or anyone you mentioned except Jesus is God's begotten Son. Also, none of them were worshipped. None of them said that he and the Father are one, or that who has seen him has seen the Father. No one of them made the claim they will judge the nations on the Day of Judgement.
Jesus did.
Show me where Jesus said I am God worship me and reconcile all the other errors in your book, and bring me accounts that are congruent with each other and a bible in Jesus original tongue and a corpus from his time not through some unknown authors centuries later and then we can have this conversation and I think now you can understand why no one takes you or Christianity seriously!
format_quote Originally Posted by TG123
I believe Muslims are people created in the image and likeness of God, people who He loves so much that He came down and died for you on the cross. I believe Muslims are misguided in your beliefs. I respect much of what Islam teaches, but a lot of it I believe is wrong. I will post more on that as soon as I am allowed to post links on the forum.
That's loaded and I don't think anyone has a need for a god to eat their sins or to be like god. I don't want another weak human being who couldn't ward off a couple of conspirators nor save himself from a certain fate for a creator. Of course you're free to your beliefs but you're not free to force shove them down everyone's throat.. It is like eating cardboard!
format_quote Originally Posted by TG123
You said you believe Paul was a charlatan, yet you seem upset about the garbage movie made about Muhammad where he is falsely portrayed as a deluded fool and a pedophile (as I heard, I had not watched it). That sounds pretty hypocritical to me.
Again, this isn't about what I believe, I mean your priests are known pederasts and your god impregnated a little girl so I don't think you're in a position to ping pong here at any rate. Was Paul chosen by Jesus as an apostle. I don't I understand why we should forgo his companions for a self-appointed one?
format_quote Originally Posted by TG123
You said my beliefs are illogical. I responded by saying belief in God is illogical to atheists too.
Belief in God shouldn't be illogical it should one of two natural conclusions
format_quote Originally Posted by TG123
If you want me to respond with more, show me how my arguments are illogical. Blanket statements get blanket responses.
I have been doing that all along, you chose to dodge it and hammer in how god died to eat our sins!
format_quote Originally Posted by TG123
A person who misunderstands Islam would claim you are polytheists, because he or she would falsely believe that you believe the 99 attributes of God = 99 gods. A person who misunderstands Christianity (such as yourself) would falsely believe that God who reveals Himself as three persons = 3 gods.
Both are misunderstandings.
and I have illustrated how an attribute and three separate persons in different places in particular points in time aren't the same thing!
format_quote Originally Posted by TG123
What kind of behaviour? Disagreeing?
No, not reading, reasoning and coming back with a seasoned reply.
for your own sake sign up for some classes and quit parroting the stuff they teach you in churches. It isn't working!
best,
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Well, we all agree at least that the NATO airstrike was a criminal action. Sorry for derailing the thread and responding to allegations that Jesus is not God, perhaps we can move that discussion into the Comparative Religions forum.
, I hope you have a great day. I will not be discussing theology anymore with you, because I prefer to talk with people who are capable of voicing disagreement while at the same time being respectful, and there are a lot of people like that on this forum. Sorry for the times I responded to your attacks against me by attacking you. To avoid this in the future, I will do my best to avoid discussions with you. I will keep you in my prayers, although I would break the forum rules receive a warning if I were to say to say why so I won't.
If you don't like it here don't be a member here.
Any committee that boards a club or institution or whatever can put down its rules and regulations. If they're not suitable then find another community - don't invent a new way to sneak in the same rhetoric in different wording!
As to what you consider insulting or accommodating anyone can see that it's due to your inability to string together a coherent reply to issues raised- and they're very legitimate and you'll always be met with them, hence I tell you when they send you out evangelizing the courses they give you are incomplete. You need basic courses in theology and logic. Don't assume that anyone will subscribe to your version of truth simply because you assert it or quote your bible. Most people don't believe in the bible even Christians contend it is wrought with errors- how do you sell that which isn't convincing to your own community so that they preach on one heart?
You deflect from the issues with whining & excuses!
Religion should satisfy two (the heart and mind) not just speak to aimless whims & desires!
Best
Last edited by جوري; 09-21-2012 at 01:48 PM.
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.
When you create an account, we remember exactly what you've read, so you always come right back where you left off. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and share your thoughts. Sign Up
Quote
, I hope you have a great day. I will not be discussing theology anymore with you, because I prefer to talk with people who are capable of voicing disagreement while at the same time being respectful, and there are a lot of people like that on this forum. Sorry for the times I responded to your attacks against me by attacking you. To avoid this in the future, I will do my best to avoid discussions with you. I will keep you in my prayers, although I would break the forum rules receive a warning if I were to say to say why so I won't.
Hide
Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.
Bookmarks