You're going to get spoken to by how you portray yourself. Naturally, you avoided everyone's questions so I needed to make a point to keep it as simple as possible to finally get a straight answer out of you. Your answers in the previous posts were open-ended and indirect. You were trying to be clever. I'm a more direct person.
But now it's clear, you side with Islamic extremists and you condone attacks on innocent civilians. You share the mentality of a terrorist. You believe that all people who live in a country under a corrupt government support their actions and are equally guilty. You're just like the followers of Abu Sufyan and the people the Prophet (SAW) warned us about. If that's the case, then going by your mentality, I should blame you for the deaths of some members of my family at the hands of Islamic extremists since you support their cause.
L
You're disgusting.
I did notice some of the sisters posts as being open ended however she was mainly sticking to what Allah has directed us to and not the common stereotypes daily propagated by the mainstream kafir media against any Muslim who condemns the acts of the criminal kafir governments which i hope you see that you decided to forcefully and inaccurately bundle her as, may Allah guide us all. Rather than than this being a debate where we all throw eggsand insults at each other, wouldn't it be better to look at the root causes of these actions?
with all that said, i'll state my views clearly.
Number one: anybody who refuses to submit to Almighty God's rules, and is content with the vices of satan is either ignorant or criminal.
Number two:
Allah has brought us into a stage where all of mankind is in communication - no matter how far apart, it is better that we come together, understand the elevated and dignified way our creator has enjoined upon us and accept it unanimously as the way of life, however, since this he life of this world is a test and people have been given the guidance and opportunity to walk aright or stray, let those who believe in Allah and His Messengers and wish to live under the rules of Allah establish Islamic rule in the lands where they form a majority and live in peace, we can still trade with each other according to what is halal. It is foolish to push corrupt puppet dictators onto them and prod them till they lash out. Those who think that they can make their own rules and live by them - let them play jack the lad since ultimately we know that those who have power amongst them will make rules for them and use them until they wake up.
There is no logic whatsoever in banning hijab, banning mosques, banning people who spill out onto the streets at jumu'ah from praying, telling people who want to live the the laws of God that they should move out, setting corrupt secular dictators up as their rulers and then arresting them when they try to move to an Islamic State, while manipulating the Islamic state and bombing it's offices and workers and then crying and screaming foul after there's a minor reprisal in magnitude.
It's a global time with satellite debri and ocean waste affecting everyone, however the only way to peace appears to be separation of Kafir and Muslims, let people make their choice, you managed to force your hand for the zionists, what's your problem now?
Really man really ? the whole thread didn't only break the rules of the forums but also broke the rules of humanity!
You need to clean up the forum man and banish these paralysed thinkings, WAKE UP!! this is your responsability!!!
Please don't place the burden of your inadequacy in presenting valid points or debating an issue objectively on the mods by pressuring them to corner a clearly important discussion, the brother has given his viewpoint and is in no way responsible for our posts.
You're new here and maybe aren't aware that we have these polarizing discussions once in a while, it also helps us to know the truthful from the munafiqs because true colours show at times like these.
Since some of us are making claims to know what the Prophet pbuh would have done, let's look into a little of his biography and his actions in similarly fuzzy situations:
The whole lecture is eventful however for those with less time, scroll to 20 minutes.
Please don't place the burden of your inadequacy in presenting valid points or debating an issue objectively on the mods by pressuring them to corner a clearly important discussion, the brother has given his viewpoint and is in no way responsible for our posts.
You're new here and maybe aren't aware that we have these polarizing discussions once in a while, it also helps us to know the truthful from the munafiqs because true colours show at times like these.
If you don't feel that we need to prevent the people who call to kill innocent people then this is your own opinion and it's well respected by ISIS.
THIS NATION WILL KNOW WHO WILL DEFEND IT WITH HIS TONGUE AND WHO WILL FIGHT FOR IT WITH THE GLORIOUS SWORD !!!
Our first thoughts should be with those who have lost loved ones. Frankly, I'm surprised this thread has been allowed to continue in the manner it has.
format_quote Originally Posted by AhmedGassama
I don't know, but this thread started to be shameful not only to us but to Islam itself...
Any non muslim who will enter this thread will see that Muslims are still discussing about the basics of humanity or if it's permissible or not to kill an innocent life.
Such a shame, right ?
Agreed. It's utterly shameful that some members here feel free to defend, justify or identify with those who take innocent lives. The commitment to a simplistic 'us and them' way of thinking will only perpetuate hatred and violence, as the career of (for example) George W. Bush has demonstrated.
I have nothing but praise for those here who have repeatedly and patiently pointed out that all killing of innocents is wrong and that the teachings of Islam do not authorise attacks like those in Paris last night.
The purpose of those attacks were spread fear among the people as well separate us who still believe the humanity - Muslims or non-Muslims.
Don´t let them to blow out the flame of hope and humanity.
Yes agreed. But when this mind set prevails at this forum and no body stops it then who is to blame for that? We all would be responsible if this is prevalent where at least we can put a stop to it...
I did notice some of the sisters posts as being open ended however she was mainly sticking to what Allah has directed us to
Allah (SWT) directed us to kill innocent people?
[Quran 2:190-192] "And fight in the cause of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allaah does not love those who exceed the limits. And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from where they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque (in Makkah) until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the reward of the unbelievers. But if they desist, then surely Allaah is Forgiving, Merciful. And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors."
[Quran 17:33] "Nor take life -- which Allah has made sacred -- except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand retaliation or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life, for he is helped (by the Law).."
format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000
you decided to forcefully and inaccurately bundle her as
Clearly...
format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000
wouldn't it be better to look at the root causes of these actions?
Yes, we can start by looking at the Qur'an and Islam's perspective on harming innocent people. Refer to explicit Qur'anic verses above for starters.
format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000
Number one: anybody who refuses to submit to Almighty God's rules, and is content with the vices of satan is either ignorant or criminal.
Am I to understand that you're accusing the innocent people who died last night of being criminals?
format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000
Number two:
Allah has brought us into a stage where all of mankind is in communication - no matter how far apart, it is better that we come together, understand the elevated and dignified way our creator has enjoined upon us and accept it unanimously as the way of life, however, since this he life of this world is a test and people have been given the guidance and opportunity to walk aright or stray, let those who believe in Allah and His Messengers and wish to live under the rules of Allah establish Islamic rule in the lands where they form a majority and live in peace, we can still trade with each other according to what is halal. It is foolish to push corrupt puppet dictators onto them and prod them till they lash out. Those who think that they can make their own rules and live by them - let them play jack the lad since ultimately we know that those who have power amongst them will make rules for them and use them until they wake up.
This I agree with.
format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000
There is no logic whatsoever in banning hijab, banning mosques, banning people who spill out onto the streets at jumu'ah from praying, telling people who want to live the the laws of God that they should move out, setting corrupt secular dictators up as their rulers and then arresting them when they try to move to an Islamic State, while manipulating the Islamic state and bombing it's offices and workers and then crying and screaming foul after there's a minor reprisal in magnitude.
You're still grouping innocent civilians with the actions of their government officials. If people are ignorant, let them be ignorant. Sadly, most people will follow what their governments tell them because it provides them mental security and peace. But being ignorant doesn't make you a criminal. I dare you to try to tell me that all those 120+ people who were killed last night were perpetrators and supporters of violence and sanctions against Muslims.
format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000
you managed to force your hand for the zionists, what's your problem now?
My "problem" is with people like you who claim to speak in the name of Islam but are incredibly misguided.
Last edited by strivingobserver98; 11-15-2015 at 07:06 AM.
Reason: Quote removed
Hassen Chalghoumi, imam of the Drancy mosque in Paris’s Seine-Saint-Denis suburb: “These are criminals, barbarians. They have sold their soul to Hell. This is not freedom. This is not Islam and I hope the French will come out united at the end of this.”
The French Muslim Council hasn't yet updated their website but have been extremely loud against ISIS and terrorists who target France. "This is a thunderous declaration of war. The times have changed. We’re entering a new phase of this confrontation… we are horrified by the brutality and the savagery,” imam Dalil Boubakeur was quoted as saying.
Bosnian reisu-l-ulema (highest Muslim clerical authority in the country) issued a statement: "I most seriously condemn the terrorist attacks in Paris and the murder of innocent people. The Islamic Community and Muslims of Bosnia and Herzegovina express their deepest condolences and solidarity with the French people in their pain. We remember the support and solidarity of the French citizens from the recent history when we first-hand experienced fearmongering and terror. I especially call upon the Muslims of Europe to preserve peace and remember that terrorists do not represent our faith nor our community, and that terrorism cannot be justified morally, religiously or politically."
Saudi Arabia: The “heinous” Paris attacks are a violation of all religions and underline the need to intensify efforts against “terrorism,” Saudi Arabia's foreign minister said Saturday. “I wanted to express our condolences to the government and people of France for the heinous terrorist attacks that took place yesterday which are in violation and contravention of all ethics, morals and religions,” Adel al-Jubeir told reporters in Vienna. “The kingdom of Saudi Arabia has long called for more intensified international efforts to combat the scourge of terrorism in all its forms and shapes,” he said.
Iran: All Iranian political parties have issued condemnations of the attack as well as attacks in Beirut and Baghdad. Iranian president Hassan Rouhani has sent a message to French President Francois Hollande condemning the terror attacks in Paris. The state-run IRNA news agency quoted Rouhani as saying Saturday that Iran “itself has been a victim of the scourge of terrorism” and the fight against terrorism must go on. Rouhani also canceled visits to France and Italy, due in a few days. The Vice President sent a message to the French Premier expressing sympathy for the victims and praying for France's prosperity.
Egypt: Egyptian President Abdel-Fattah el-Sissi has condemned the Paris attacks and is conveying condolences to the victims. A statement from his office on Saturday called for “concerted international efforts” to combat “the scourge of terrorism, which aims to destabilize security and stability in various parts of the world, without distinction.” The head of Sunni Islam's leading seat of learning, Cairo's Al-Azhar, on Saturday condemned “hateful” attacks in Paris that killed more than 120 people and urged global unity against extremism. “We denounce this hateful incident,” Ahmed al-Tayyeb told a conference in comments broadcast by Egyptian state television. “The time has come for the world to unite to confront this monster." “Such acts are contrary to all religious, humanitarian and civilised principles,” Tayyeb said at the opening of the conference in the southern city of Luxor focused on combating “extremist thought”.
Indonesia: Indonesia's President strongly condemned terrorism and called for the upcoming G-20 summit to address this together. "I express deep sorrow for the victims of terrorism and violence in Paris, and also to the government and the people of France," President Jokowi remarked. In the condolences conveyed by Jokowi shortly before his departure to Turkey, the president stated that terrorism, for any reason and in any form, cannot be tolerated. "The government and people of Indonesia strongly condemned the violence and atrocities that occurred in Paris on Friday," the Head of State reiterated.
Maldives: Message from the President "The Maldives strongly condemns these cowardly acts of terror perpetuated against innocent people. We stand firm in our commitment to supporting shared human values, and will continue to work closely with France and the international community as a whole in eliminating the scourge of terrorism."
You're still grouping innocent civilians with the actions of their government officials. If people are ignorant, let them be ignorant. Sadly, most people will follow what their governments tell them because it provides them mental security and peace. But being ignorant doesn't make you a criminal. I dare you to try to tell me that all those 120+ people who were killed last night were perpetrators and supporters of violence and sanctions against Muslims.
You know bro, i have a diploma in the french language, literature and civilization... I know a lot about France and a bout their people, many of them dislike Muslims just because they are Muslims, others do respect Muslims and they hate their government.
First, we can't kill the french citizens who dislike us because they didn't do any harm to us yet
As for the other french citizens, we can see them as our allies because they are defending us, and i have many friends from France who share this mentality.
We can't blew up bombs like that, because this kind of arms can't make difference between Muslims and Non Muslims, the hateful non muslim and the respectful non muslim... what if the explosion killed Muslims ?
I'm sure they are going to say they are shuhadas (martyrs) lol lame thinkings
Last edited by AhmedGassama; 11-14-2015 at 10:09 PM.
You know bro, i have a diploma in the french language, literature and civilization... I know a lot about France and a bout their people, many of them dislike Muslims just because they are Muslims, others do respect Muslims and they hate their government.
First, we can't kill the french citizens who dislike us because they didn't do any harm to us yet
As for the other french citizens, we can see them as our allies because they are defending us, and i have many friends from France who share this mentality.
We can't blew up bombs like that, because this kind of arms can't make difference between Muslims and Non Muslims, the hateful non muslim and the respectful non muslim... what if the explosion killed Muslims ?
I'm sure they are going to say they are shuhadas (martyrs) lol lame thinkings
Exactly, I couldn't agree with you more. And yeah I'm expecting those shahada remarks. A sick excuse for a terrible and un-Islamic act. I full well understand how the French community can be very racist, and all their laws taking away rights from Muslims. That has always bothered me, but that doesn't excuse harming innocent people as you said. It's pathetic we have people here defending such tyrannical perspectives.
[Quran 2:190-192] "And fight in the cause of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allaah does not love those who exceed the limits. And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from where they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque (in Makkah) until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the reward of the unbelievers. But if they desist, then surely Allaah is Forgiving, Merciful. And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors."
[Quran 17:33] "Nor take life -- which Allah has made sacred -- except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand retaliation or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life, for he is helped (by the Law).."
Clearly...
[COLOR=#333333]
Yes, we can start by looking at the Qur'an and Islam's perspective on harming innocent people. Refer to explicit Qur'anic verses above for starters.
The verses speak clearly, the unlawful actions of the french government are criminal.
format_quote Originally Posted by Leoprecordia
Am I to understand that you're accusing the innocent people who died last night of being criminals?
If they claim to live happily in a democracy and vote their leaders into power in order to manage their taxes and affairs and nlawfully kill people in Muslim lands - YES.
format_quote Originally Posted by Leoprecordia
This I agree with.
MashaAllah, Allah likes that we come together upon truth and not let the schisms we may sometimes have with each other prevent us from coming to fairness and justice and gaining the blessings of Allah.
[quote]
format_quote Originally Posted by Leoprecordia
You're still grouping innocent civilians with the actions of their government officials. If people are ignorant, let them be ignorant. Sadly, most people will follow what their governments tell them because it provides them mental security and peace. But being ignorant doesn't make you a criminal. I dare you to try to tell me that all those 120+ people who were killed last night were perpetrators and supporters of violence and sanctions against Muslims.
As i said earlier, do they claim that their government doesn't work for them and is not subject to them?
if so they are free from it's criminal actions
If not, then the form of government is not democraric, and is claiming to be against Islamic state and Assad for what? Shouldn't they define their way of life instead of claiming to be democratic, yet oppressing minorities, installing corrupt dictators wherever they gain some influence, then demanding that they not be held responsible for the actions of their government?
format_quote Originally Posted by Leoprecordia
My "problem" is with people like you who claim to speak in the name of Islam but are incredibly misguided.
I'll sincerely seek refuge in Allah from claiming to speak in the name of Islam while being incredibly misguided, and pray that Allah guides me closer to the straight path, and let Allah be the judge of my inner and outer deeds, and that He forgives me when i fall short despite sincerely trying to walk aright.
Brother, one question, do you believe that every type of people in every split up land under every type of law, and every corrupt way should be celebrated while the Muslim ummah lives like little stewart under them and suffers regular slander and abuse or do you believe we have a right to establish a government which implements the will and rule of Allah?
Pain and hardships allow you to grow spiritually Alhamdulilah so smile when a so called calamity befalls upon you.
Alhamdulilah Allah swt is the greatest.
It's sunnah for a man to follow certain guidelines in his dress and appearance (trousers above the ankles, beard ext), sad many choose to leave it off.
Mmm... "The French is..."? (gently) Are all the people of France one faceless entity in your mind?
"Kufar"... (gently) Really, Ajr? How do you know? Can you peer into the knowledge that belongs to Allah Only, and Know the hearts of all the many millions of people in France?
(pensively) You know, I have recently been working on helping Syrian refugees come to Canada. And I remember speaking with a man who felt that it was wrong to talk of helping refugees, when there are veterans who are suffering and forgotten. (mildly) But it seems to me that if you truly care about one group that is suffering and unjustly treated, then you will care about all people who are suffering and unjustly treated. Is it not possible (I suggested to this man), that we could work to improve the lives of more than one group of people? Could we not try to help whomever has been harmed by war... whether it be ex-soldiers or whether it be civilians?
Furthermore, is it not possible to simultaneously support justice for indigenous peoples, for refugees, for minorities, for the poor... for whomever suffers injustice? Indeed, is it possible to truly speak of justice, unless we wish it for all people?
Some people seem to feel that caring is something that is finite, and that therefore, if you have more people to care about, that the amount you care for each person is less. (smile) But as a mother of six children, I do assure you that love does not divide... it multiplies. (smile) The more people you love, the greater the love in your heart. (gently) And I believe that the more people we can feel compassion for, the more compassionate we become. (smile) And is not Allah Ar-rahmaan, Ar-raheem? Are not compassion/love/mercy/kindness qualities that we should cultivate within ourselves? To Please God?
I care about the peoples of Burma. And Chechnya. And Brazil. And Indonesia. And Africa. And Europe. And... (smile) you get the picture... After all, is not every person Allah's creation?
Yes, we must take steps to intervene to do what is good and right... to the extent that Allah Gifts us with. And sometimes we must (if we can) stop a person or a group of persons from wrongdoing. Not only to help those who are wronged, but also as a kindness to the wrongdoers.
(gently) Finally, venting our anger and hatred towards random strangers of whom we know very little... this is not the behaviour of the Sabireen (those that restrain themselves). Yes, someone may be engaging in sinful actions. (gentle smile) But who is free from sin? Allah and His Final Prophet have taught us that even animals and plants should be treated with care and not made to suffer. Hunting down random people, terrifying them, and then injuring and killing them... now can we possibly justify this?
It is wrong when an American does it. It is wrong when an Israeli does it. And it is wrong when a Muslim does it. Does it happen? Yes. But Allah Teaches us to repel evil with good. Not by perpetrating wrong. And any form of compensation for wrong, of retribution... must be just and measured. (gently) Because any excess will be counted as a sin against us, even if we were the first wronged.
(gently) Please consider my words Ajr, my sister.
May Allah, the Forgiving, the Compassionate, Help us to look past our wounds... and find His Healing.
The French is Kufar, i really care little, so you can take it to them on a silver platter!!!
French Muslims do exist..but either way non Muslim or not it's irrelevant because harming innocent 'human beings' is prohibited, period. It's a basic principle of humanity at large and no Muslim can possibly justify these attacks.
I understand Muslims are suffering all around the world, I also understand what happened in France is a daily occurrence in Palestine, Syria, Iraq and many other countries worldwide however we shouldn't allow seperate incidents to cloud our judgment. We feel for Muslims and non Muslims alike who are oppressed all over the globe but do not be fooled by ISIS, IE Israeli Secret Intelligence Service. It's a well known fact they are a creation of the west and the leader of this movement, who's real name is Simon Elliot is a mossad agent.
I pray common sense reaches those who are clearly misguided in their understanding.
Last edited by IslamicRevival; 11-15-2015 at 12:43 AM.
Brother, one question, do you believe that every type of people in every split up land under every type of law, and every corrupt way should be celebrated while the Muslim ummah lives like little stewart under them and suffers regular slander and abuse or do you believe we have a right to establish a government which implements the will and rule of Allah?
There is a saying of Hazrat Isa (a.s) "Kingdom of heaven needs to be established in the heart first"
there is a process of education, dawah and tarbiyah that precedes before anything can be established on earth....foolish ones try to establish on earth before it is established in the heart thus causing more Fitnah... and the following Verse applies for them...
Surah Kahf 103-104
Say, [O Muhammad], "Shall we [believers] inform you of the greatest losers as to [their] deeds?
[They are] those whose effort is lost in worldly life, while they think that they are doing well in work."
...MashA'Allah surprisingly Imam Ali Ibn Abi Talib (r.a) in his comments on the above Verse referred that it applies to the Haruriya (A place called Harura where Khawarij established their center)
...And so the Khawarij/extremists of today try to put Last what Allah (swt) and His Messenger (Saw) put 1st and they put 1st what Allah (swt) and His Messenger (Saw) put last....
The Messenger (Saw) did not establish Islamic Law as a penal code until the people to whom he was doing Dawah were ready to accept with their hearts and minds...and it took 10 years to work on them ...and even after that his focus and the Quran's focus is that greatest Jihad is the Self Reformation, rather than reformation of the society with a sword...
Jesus’ statement “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her” Book of John
What Hazrat Isa (a.s) meant was that how can you establish the book of God when you yourselves are unequipped to understand its implementation and when you yourselves are not reformed....
That said, I am pleased to see so many Muslims here speaking against this kind of terrorism, and not trying to shift the focus to other tragedy. Yes, there are atrocities and suffering done against group A. That doesn't make atrocity and suffering of Group B any less important or terrible. We are all human. Try to see that, instead of dividing us and demonizing the other "side".
Last edited by strivingobserver98; 11-15-2015 at 07:07 AM.
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