Can We Coexist?

Re: Muslim leaders condemn terrorism

HeiGou said:

And Muslims ought to be encouraged to leave non-Muslim countries. We cannot live together. Separation is the only viable option.

Click to expand...

this is a very sad comment. what's even more sad is that i am gradually and reluctantly coming to a similar conclusion.
our mentalities are just too different.

Re: Muslim leaders condemn terrorism

snakelegs said:

this is a very sad comment. what's even more sad is that i am gradually and reluctantly coming to a similar conclusion.

Click to expand...

The terrorists and extremists on both sides score a victory when you allow their ideology of hatred to divide us, though they are so few in number and the manjority of people disagree with them.

our mentalities are just too different.

Click to expand...

We both respect human life and call for peace, understanding and justice. Is that so different?

Re: Muslim leaders condemn terrorism

Ansar Al-'Adl said:

The terrorists and extremists on both sides score a victory when you allow their ideology of hatred to divide us, though they are so few in number and the manjority of people disagree with them.

this is true. however, i feel no hatred only a deep sadness.

We both respect human life and call for peace, understanding and justice. Is that so different?

no that is not different, but here are some things that are and these differences seem irreconcilable for example:
there is a wide spread belief among muslims (including on this forum) that apostasy and blasphemy should be punishable by death.
it is not uncommon to hear muslims demanding that shariah should be in place in non-muslim countries.
the murder of van gogh.
the violent reactions (yes, i know they were few) to the cartoons that denmark paper published but even more alarming to me were the placards at the peaceful protests in UK and the fact that these are people living in the west.
it is not a matter of right or wrong (i think the van gogh thing and the cartoon thing were deliberate provocation).
it is just that this type of mentality is so foreign to the average westerner.
i am trying not to come to the conclusion that we cannot live together, but it is getting more and more difficult.

Click to expand...

peace.
edit: p.s. it would be more accurate to say "this interpretation of islam". i

Re: Muslim leaders condemn terrorism

Sometimes I get the feeling from some of these comments that there are some non-muslims who will never be satisfied with Muslims no matter what we do. Especially when someone says something like, "I came on this forum looking for dialogue but the more I read the more negative my view of Muslims and Islam and the more I think we can't live peacefully with them!"

Excuse me? How? What has there been on this forum except for Muslims promoting peace, condemning injustice and violence, spreading the moral teachings of Islam on respect, kindness, humility, mercy, justice, tolerance, patience, and all forms of virtuous conduct. What do people want to read??

there is a wide spread belief among muslims (including on this forum) that apostasy and blasphemy should be punishable by death.
it is not uncommon to hear muslims demanding that shariah should be in place in non-muslim countries.

Click to expand...

No, we don't want to impose our laws on you, we don't demand that you submit to Islamic laws, all we ask is that we have mutual respect and understanding. I've already explained the apostasy law in this thread and blasphemy in this thread, which shouldn't be unfamiliar to Christians and Jews. These are laws implemented within our own Islamic state, not non-muslim countries.

the murder of van gogh.
the violent reactions to the cartoons

Click to expand...

Both of these are not from Islam's teachings and are rejected and denounced by mainstream Muslims, so how on earth can this be evidence that it is impossible for Muslimns and westerners to coexist? You initially claimed that there was a difference in our mentalities and now you've resorted to the old fallacy of highlighting individual unislamic acts, not Islamic teachings.

Secondly, it is interesting you would raise this example as if to say, "We want to live peacefully with you and without hostility but we reserve the right to revile, defame, malign, slander and abuse you, your religion and whatever you hold sacred." Sorry, but there's no peace in that, only hostility and hatred. There will only be peace when both sides agree to respect eachother, not defend their right to spread hatred against eachother.

Of course it is difficult for someone to live together with soemone else if they demand that they should be allowed to insult and incite hatred towards them! If you think it is difficult to live peacefully, it is only because you have made it that way. You cannot call for peace while permitting hatred and oppression.

Re: Muslim leaders condemn terrorism

ansar,
i don't know if you read my p.s. "p.s. it would be more accurate to say "this interpretation of islam".

Ansar Al-'Adl said:

Sometimes I get the feeling from some of these comments that there are some non-muslims who will never be satisfied with Muslims no matter what we do. Especially when someone says something like, "I came on this forum looking for dialogue but the more I read the more negative my view of Muslims and Islam and the more I think we can't live peacefully with them!"

Excuse me? How? What has there been on this forum except for Muslims promoting peace, condemning injustice and violence, spreading the moral teachings of Islam on respect, kindness, humility, mercy, justice, tolerance, patience, and all forms of virtuous conduct. What do people want to read??

Click to expand...

well, i listed some in my last post that are a long way from "respect, kindness, humility, mercy, justice, tolerance"

No, we don't want to impose our laws on you, we don't demand that you submit to Islamic laws, all we ask is that we have mutual respect and understanding. I've already explained the apostasy law in this thread and blasphemy in this thread, which shouldn't be unfamiliar to Christians and Jews. These are laws implemented within our own Islamic state, not non-muslim countries.

Click to expand...

ansar, your statements about shariah may be true, but the danger lies in muslims who interpret it in these ways. again it is a mindset that is just foreign to western culture, at least in modern times.

Both of these are not from Islam's teachings and are rejected and denounced by mainstream Muslims, so how on earth can this be evidence that it is impossible for Muslimns and westerners to coexist? You initially claimed that there was a difference in our mentalities and now you've resorted to the old fallacy of highlighting individual unislamic acts, not Islamic teachings.

Secondly, it is interesting you would raise this example as if to say, "We want to live peacefully with you and without hostility but we reserve the right to revile, defame, malign, slander and abuse you, your religion and whatever you hold sacred." Sorry, but there's no peace in that, only hostility and hatred. There will only be peace when both sides agree to respect eachother, not defend their right to spread hatred against eachother.

Click to expand...

ansar, this statement makes me furious. i have no desire to :"revile,defame, malign" etc anyones' religion. to turn my statement into this is a cheap shot.
again, my issue is more one of a certain interpretation of islam like that that prevails on this forum. and, as i pointed out it is not a matter of right and wrong or true or false, but a fundamentalclash in mentalities.

Of course it is difficult for someone to live together with soemone else if they demand that they should be allowed to insult and incite hatred towards them! If you think it is difficult to live peacefully, it is only because you have made it that way. You cannot call for peace while permitting hatred and oppression.

Click to expand...

you have a way of turning anything around and this is a good example. when i say the 2 mentalities are incompatible it is not the same thing as "permitting hatred and oppression" this accusation doesn't even deserve a comment

may i suggest that this be a separate threat in the world section "can we live together?" starting with my first post:

"Quote:
Originally Posted by HeiGou
"And Muslims ought to be encouraged to leave non-Muslim countries. We cannot live together. Separation is the only viable option."

this is a very sad comment. what's even more sad is that i am gradually and reluctantly coming to a similar conclusion.
our mentalities are just too different."
peace

Re: Muslim leaders condemn terrorism

Ansar Al-'Adl said:

Excuse me? How? What has there been on this forum except for Muslims promoting peace, condemning injustice and violence, spreading the moral teachings of Islam on respect, kindness, humility, mercy, justice, tolerance, patience, and all forms of virtuous conduct. What do people want to read??

Click to expand...

I have left the rest of your post for you and snakelegs to discuss. The paragraph I have quoted I take issue with based on the lack of truth.

In the time I have spent reading posts on this forum, I know this to be untrue. While I have seen a great many people write the kind of posts you claim, I have also seen volumes of hatred, hate-mongering, bigotry, and promoting and condoning violence. If you would like I could quote some examples, but the best examples are removed by moderators.
You could say of course that this removal by moderators is an example of how this behavior is not tolerated, but truthfully it only shows that moderators do not tolerate it. If you watch the threads develop in real time as people write their posts, you see people saying the awful things I have stated, and others condoning what is being said. Others do not condemn violence and injustice as you say, they are silent and only continue posting as if something terrible had not been said. Yes many do speak up, but many do not. Many condone the terrible posts. And many also write them.
So, while I agree that some people here condemn injustice and violence, many here promote these things. So I take issue with the wording of your post

Excuse me? How? What has there been on this forum except for Muslims promoting peace.....

Click to expand...

What I gathered from snakelegs post, is a kind of dispair at a realization she wants to deny. I personally feel that there are a large number of people, both muslim and nonmuslim that greatly contribute to the realization that people like snakelegs are coming to. Perhaps you are right Ansar that mainstream muslims can coexist just fine. But even at a minority, the numbers that cannot coexist are large. Think of the countless posts that you and the other mods delete regularily on just this one forum. Think of all the hateful people you must ban regularily. Certainly not a majority, but very many indeed. Until 'mainstream' muslims address these people, and actively discourage the extreme views and behaviour, the muslim community will continue to be viewed with distrust. Of course the other side of ther coin is the same, and muslims don't trust western society either.

Re: Muslim leaders condemn terrorism

Panatella said:

What I gathered from snakelegs post, is a kind of dispair at a realization she wants to deny. I personally feel that there are a large number of people, both muslim and nonmuslim that greatly contribute to the realization that people like snakelegs are coming to. Perhaps you are right Ansar that mainstream muslims can coexist just fine. But even at a minority, the numbers that cannot coexist are large. Think of the countless posts that you and the other mods delete regularily on just this one forum. Think of all the hateful people you must ban regularily. Certainly not a majority, but very many indeed. Until 'mainstream' muslims address these people, and actively discourage the extreme views and behaviour, the muslim community will continue to be viewed with distrust. Of course the other side of ther coin is the same, and muslims don't trust western society either.

Click to expand...

I'm just curious about a statement I see here quite often.

Quoting from above:

" 'mainstream' muslims "

Click to expand...

Quite simply, a person is either Muslim or is not Muslim. Islam is not divided into factors as to differences of practice.

In order to be Muslim a person must be a Muslim. To be a Muslim means to act as a Muslim. Those that do not act in accordance with Islam, will not listen to those that do. The Islamic Community has no more influence over them then any other person. For a person to act in a non-Islamic manner is an indication that the person either does not know or has foresaken the teachings of Islam.

Those of us who live in non-Islamic countries are forbidden to try those wrong doers for crimes against Islam. Yet, that is the only tool we have to influence would be wrong doers. We are asked to try to influence those who would be terrorist. But, our hands are tied by the very people that want us to spread our influence.

We do openly condemn terrorism, yet publicaly it is seldom shown as being a Muslim protest. When we publicaly protest We are seen as Americans, British, Australians etc, and not as Muslims. However, if we protest a law we see as unfair, the press is quick to show us as Muslims and not as Americans, British, Australians etc.

Those who deal in criminal activities with intent of terror are not acting as Muslims. There are no mainstream Muslims, a person is either Muslim or is not Muslim. It is very difficult to get a Non-Muslim to listen to and agree with a Muslim

Re: Muslim leaders condemn terrorism

Woodrow said:

I'm just curious about a statement I see here quite often.

Quoting from above:

'mainstream' muslims

Click to expand...

Quite simply, a person is either Muslim or is not Muslim. Islam is not divided into factors as to differences of practice.

In order to be Muslim a person must be a Muslim. To be a Muslim means to act as a Muslim. Those that do not act in accordance with Islam, will not listen to those that do. The Islamic Community has no more influence over them then any other person. For a person to act in a non-Islamic manner is an indication that the person either does not know or has foresaken the teachings of Islam.

Those of us who live in non-Islamic countries are forbidden to try those wrong doers for crimes against Islam. Yet, that is the only tool we have to influence would be wrong doers. We are asked to try to influence those who would be terrorist. But, our hands are tied by the very people that want us to spread our influence.

We do openly condemn terrorism, yet publicaly it is seldom shown as being a Muslim protest. When we publicaly protest We are seen as Americans, British, Australians etc, and not as Muslims. However, if we protest a law we see as unfair, the press is quick to show us as Muslims and not as Americans, British, Australians etc.

Those who deal in criminal activities with intent of terror are not acting as Muslims. There are no mainstream Muslims, a person is either Muslim or is not Muslim. It is very difficult to get a Non-Muslim to listen to and agree with a Muslim

Click to expand...

My apologies, "mainstream muslims" was my lazy way of saying "the majority."

As far as the rest goes about "a muslim is a muslim, there are no differences....", well, I am sorry, but I have been hearing this for too long. It is time to call a spade a spade, and just say it the way it is. Baloney. There. I said it. Baloney. This whole bit about those not acting in accordance with islam are not muslims, etc... More baloney. There are countless different "ideas" out there about what islam says about topics it seems. "This guy does this, well, that's because he is not acting in accordance with islam". Well, when you talk to that guy, he says he is acting in accordance with islam, and you are not! You are not doing enough. He is going to far. Everybody thinks their version of thinking is the correct one. The guy that you think is not acting in accordance with islam, thinks that he is.
So tell me then, if these guys are viewed as not acting as muslims, then why are so many so quick to call a fallen terrorist a "martyr"? If the terrorist is not acting in accordance with islam, then surely any person that supports and praises his actions is also not acting in accordance with islam. Which means that there is alot of people calling themselves muslims, which are in fact, not really following islam.
We also have many that argue with those that call them martyrs, and say "how dare you call this man a martyr, he has been killing our brothers and sisters?" Clearly, there is much division. To suggest otherwise is either misleading or naive.

Quite simply, a person is either Muslim or is not Muslim.

Click to expand...

Question is, who is the muslim? You or the other guy you think is not? I bet he thinks he is.

Islam is not divided into factors as to differences of practice.

Click to expand...

Perhaps not islam. But it is safe to say "Muslims are divided into factors as to differences of practice." When you say what was said in your quote, it is assumed that I do not differentiate between islam and muslims. This is not true. I see what islam says, and I see what muslims do. These two are very different.

Re: Muslim leaders condemn terrorism

ansar,
you will see what i am saying as being islamophobic or anti-islam, all i am trying to do is be honest about why some westerners regard this extremist trend with alarm.
you counter these statements with stuff like "there is no vigilante justice in islam"
"the punishments for apostasy and blasphemy can only be carried out by an islamic government, and only after certain criteria have been met." (not an exact quote).
while this may be true, it has nothing to do with facts "on the ground". the fact is there are many muslims who have these sentiments, including many right here on forum. how many people here said the cartoonists deserved to die? how many said that an apostate must be killed? for that matter, how many have said homosexuals should be killed?

as i've said, it is not a matter of right and wrong - it is that this mentality is incomprehensible and totally foreign to the western mindset.
so what good is citing the shariah when the issue is this kind of interpretion of shariah.

look at some of these placards in protests in london. (by people living in the west!)

"slay those who insult islam"
"europe, you will pay. demoliton is on its way"
"whoever insults a prophet kill him"
"democracy go to hell"
"europe your 9/11 will come"
"massacre those who insult islam"
"behead those who insult islam"
"freedom go to hell"

yes, these views are probably not the majority and were condemned, but the fact is, that a number of people hold them. people living in the west.
this mindset is incomprehensible to the average westerner.
if the rift is this wide, i do wonder if we can live together, and sadly, i am coming around to thinking that maybe we can't and i do not like feeling this way.
ansar, i ask you again, will you please move this to a new thread, "can we live together?" beginning from message # 48? i think it is an extemely important topic that needs wider discussion but i don't know how to do it.
also, i hope that others will participate and that this not be limited to just you and me.
thank you.

Re: Muslim leaders condemn terrorism

Woodrow said:

I'm just curious about a statement I see here quite often.


Quite simply, a person is either Muslim or is not Muslim. Islam is not divided into factors as to differences of practice.

In order to be Muslim a person must be a Muslim. To be a Muslim means to act as a Muslim. Those that do not act in accordance with Islam, will not listen to those that do. The Islamic Community has no more influence over them then any other person. For a person to act in a non-Islamic manner is an indication that the person either does not know or has foresaken the teachings of Islam.

Those of us who live in non-Islamic countries are forbidden to try those wrong doers for crimes against Islam. Yet, that is the only tool we have to influence would be wrong doers. We are asked to try to influence those who would be terrorist. But, our hands are tied by the very people that want us to spread our influence.

We do openly condemn terrorism, yet publicaly it is seldom shown as being a Muslim protest. When we publicaly protest We are seen as Americans, British, Australians etc, and not as Muslims. However, if we protest a law we see as unfair, the press is quick to show us as Muslims and not as Americans, British, Australians etc.

Those who deal in criminal activities with intent of terror are not acting as Muslims. There are no mainstream Muslims, a person is either Muslim or is not Muslim. It is very difficult to get a Non-Muslim to listen to and agree with a Muslim

Click to expand...

woodrow,
islam is not a monolith. there are many interpretations and much controversy around many issues within islam.
you say "a person is either muslim or is not muslim". would you deny that there is even controversy within islam about this??

Re: Muslim leaders condemn terrorism

KAding said:

I disagree. Since those who commit these acts of terror do it in the name of Islam it is hardly a mute point.

Click to expand...

Yes, there is a problem with that. It's not so much Islam, but an individual's interpretation of Islam. Likewise, there are individuals who misinterpret Chistian records - such as President Bush. God never told Bush to invade Iraq - he was hearing his own internal chatter. As far as I know, God didn't like the stupid idol - that vain statue of Hussein's likeness. But then again, I might have been listening to my own internal chatter since I know that, for reasons I don't understand, I hated the thing! I even twacked a mock-up of it off my coffee table!

Where Islam is concerned, I asked Allah to rule on the subject of the suicide missions for me, because the debate here last April was going in circles and I couldn't get beyond it. I feared for Abu Musab, that he might have been taught a violation of Islamic Law. I asked Allah to spare the martyrs who died by this means, that charges against them be dismissed, that rightfully belong with their teachers. I also asked Allah that if this method did not find grace with him, that Abu Musab not be allowed to die by that means. Ayman Zawahiri can boast all he wants about how Abu Musab was inseparable from his explosive belt, all that proves was that he was loyal. But Allah answered the prayer, and Abu Musab died the very moment he took the device off.

That prayer cost me dearly, but the reality is crystal clear (at least to me). Some people, regardless of their religion, will seek any means with which they can win their battles when they've been pushed to their limits. Al Qaeda is one such group, but they do not speak for all of Islam and are not capable of uniting the Ummah, while separating themselves from it.

Heaven help the one who is responsible for uniting them... but then you'll have real Jihad.

Ninth Scribe

Re: Muslim leaders condemn terrorism

Hello Snakelegs,

snakelegs said:

well, i listed some in my last post that are a long way from "respect, kindness, humility, mercy, justice, tolerance"

Click to expand...

You need to distinguish between Islam's teachings and the unislamic actions performed by some you see in the media. The placards you mentioned and the violence have nothing to do with Islam's teachings so you once against commit the fallacy of identifying the criminal actions of a minority as the 'mentality' of the majority and then calling for isolation on that basis.

ansar, your statements about shariah may be true, but the danger lies in muslims who interpret it in these ways.

Click to expand...

By all means, show me what is dangerous about my views.

ansar, this statement makes me furious. i have no desire to :"revile,defame, malign" etc anyones' religion.

Click to expand...

You should be furious because you have consented to such a ridiculous standard all your life. I never said you desired to insult and revile Islam but you certainly support the 'freedom' of others to do so, like many other westerners. So when you say that people should be allowed to propagate hateful material like van gogh's or the cartoons, without any hindrance, then you are essentially telling Muslims, "We will live in peace with you on the condition that we may revile and slander your religion as we choose." That's not peace, that's hostility. So unless you condemn the people who spread hatred too, then you can't live peacefully.

again, my issue is more one of a certain interpretation of islam like that that prevails on this forum.

Click to expand...

Is it in our interpretation of Islam to carry placards calling for violence?!

Your argument is completely incoherent. On one hand you keep claiming that there is a fundamental clash in our mentality and that our interpretation of Islam is not compatible with living in the west peacefully, but on the other hand when I challenge you to back it up you don't bring up issues of interpretation and understanding of Islamic teachings, instead you bring up the actions of a criminal minority that we condemn!!!

Which is it?? Make up your mind - is the conflict of interest in the understanding of Islam presented on this forum, or is it in the criminal actions of a few condemned by the majority. Continually recalling violent actions condemned by the majority is the strawman fallacy, and persistently resorting to it implies that one is not here to debate, they are here to hate.

yes, these views are probably not the majority and were condemned, but the fact is, that a number of people hold them.

Click to expand...

So then you must also believe that the criminal actions of the Nazis necessitate that we cannot live peacefully with germans. Or that the criminal actions of 12th century crusaders means we cannot live peacefully with Christians. Is that what you wish to imply? No? Then how dare you cite the criminal actions of a few Muslims (condemned by the majority) to support the claim that you cannot live peacefully with all Muslims?!

while this may be true, it has nothing to do with facts "on the ground". the fact is there are many muslims who have these sentiments, including many right here on forum. how many people here said the cartoonists deserved to die? how many said that an apostate must be killed? for that matter, how many have said homosexuals should be killed?

Click to expand...

None of which means that we are to go out in a non-muslim country and start implementing Hadd punishments. You continue to resort to strawman attacks to support the unsubstantiated genocidal claim that peaceful coexistence with Muslims is impossible.

I live in a non-muslim country. I have the understanding of Islam that you claim conflicts with peaceful coexistence. And yet I get along perfectly well with the non-muslim community here and with the non-muslims in my neighborhood. I don't implement punishments for burglary or murder here because that is not my job, nor is it the job of any Muslim living in the west. It is a figment of the imagination of bigots who conjure images of Muslims in the west running around implementing vigilante justice to develop a feeling of hatred and disavowal for Muslims in the minds of Non-muslim citizens. And as is clear from the posts of many non-muslims on this forum, they have been succesful.

Hello Panatella,

Perhaps you are right Ansar that mainstream muslims can coexist just fine. But even at a minority, the numbers that cannot coexist are large. Think of the countless posts that you and the other mods delete regularily on just this one forum. Think of all the hateful people you must ban regularily. Certainly not a majority, but very many indeed.

Click to expand...

There are many human beings who are given to violence and crime. Despite centuries even millenia of human civilization, we are unable to rid ourself of crime, warfare and injustice. The criminals are not a majority, but they still constitute a significant number of people. By your reasoning, should we then say that human beings in general cannot coexist peacefully and therefore we should abandon all efforts to do so? I think not.

Regards

People look at Islam as a Nationalistic thing. It is just a religion... I show no favor to Jordan, or Syria because they are Islamic Countries more than I do to China. I show favor to who is doing the right thing, ans sometimes neither country or religion is.

Re: Muslim leaders condemn terrorism

Ansar Al-'Adl said:

Hello Snakelegs,

You need to distinguish between Islam's teachings and the unislamic actions performed by some you see in the media. The placards you mentioned and the violence have nothing to do with Islam's teachings so you once against commit the fallacy of identifying the criminal actions of a minority as the 'mentality' of the majority and then calling for isolation on that basis.

Click to expand...

This is the work of Zawahiri, who boasted to President Bush: "Do you know where I am? I am walking among the Muslim people."

On my Live Journal, Last Testament of the Ninth Scribe, I even reacted to this bold statement on an entry called: Whoa, Rant Alert, wherein I answered: "And Zawahiri, if you're walking among the Muslims, you'd better watch your back because as far as I can tell, your people don't AGREE about ANYTHING."

It is frustrating, and if you read my posts from this forum alone, I have repeatedly tried to explain that I'm having problems understanding what a 'Muslim' is. The definition varies that much, depending on who you talk to. That's the real problem... and people like Zawahiri go out of their way to put you all on the spot by thinking they have the right to answer for everyone.

So, this is my new line of study, collecting all the disputes in interpretation and trying to organize them all so I can keep track of them ... because there are that many of them, it looks like a giant jig-saw puzzle. I also need to learn Arabic, so there's another five years I have to put into these times!

Ninth Scribe

Re: Muslim leaders condemn terrorism

Ansar Al-'Adl said:

Hello Panatella,

There are many human beings who are given to violence and crime. Despite centuries even millenia of human civilization, we are unable to rid ourself of crime, warfare and injustice. The criminals are not a majority, but they still constitute a significant number of people. By your reasoning, should we then say that human beings in general cannot coexist peacefully and therefore we should abandon all efforts to do so? I think not.

Regards

Click to expand...

Hi Ansar,
I should clarify that this was not neccessarily my reasoning.
In the first part of my post I was offering a correction to the statement that all the muslims that come to this forum only promote peace, condemn injustice and violence, and spread the moral teachings of Islam on respect, kindness, humility, mercy, justice, tolerance, patience, and all forms of virtuous conduct. This clearly is not true, and I was compelled to set the record straight.

In the second part of my post, I offered understanding and hopefully insight into how some people that think the same as snakelegs come to think this way. Personally, I believe there are many that will never be able to coexist peacefully. This is not a statement about all muslims of course.

Re: Muslim leaders condemn terrorism

Panatella said:

Personally, I believe there are many that will never be able to coexist peacefully. This is not a statement about all muslims of course.

Click to expand...

Like I mentioned about the giant jig-saw puzzle... When I see conflicts like this, all I see are two pieces that just don't fit together. But the each belong somewhere. You can't just throw the pieces away, because you won't be able to see the pretty picture in the end. Instead, you have to try to find the pieces that fit 'in-between' them. They're somewhere... we just have to keep looking for them!

Ninth Scribe

Greetings and peace snakelegs,

Peace on earth has to be the goal and I believe we are either a part of the solution or a part of the problem. Somehow whether we are atheist, agnostic, Christian Muslim or conform to any other belief system we can still contribute towards peace.

There will always be angry people of all persuasions; somehow we need to be gentle with them and try and find ways to help them find peace for themselves.

Peace is a journey always one day at a time, we never really reach our destination but we must always travel in the same direction.

Take care

Eric

Evil and God's Chosen?
By: Dr. Nazir Khaja* & Rabbi Steven Jacob**



God can not be made a scapegoat for xenophobia, anti-Semitism, anti-Christianity, and anti-Muslim ...

Carl Sandberg, when asked what was the word in English language that he hated most, replied "exclusivism." The ideas that follow from exclusivism indeed provide the framework for a very narrowly defined world view which has been at the heart of innumerable intra- and inter-religious conflicts, wars, and genocides. Assuming that there is only a select group who an arbitrary God has chosen or forgiven, the others seem then to be excluded from His mercy and grace. Repetition of these kinds of claims have caused great harm throughout our history; counter-claims necessarily follow and the divide continues to deepen. To justify this way of thinking through Biblical, Quranic, or any Scriptural source renders the lofty ideals within these sources of guidance meaningless and only adds insult to injury. As we face the evil of, all forms of, terrorism there is a definite need to understand this complex issue so that we can respond appropriately to contain, if not annihilate, this modern "Plague of Darkness" -- to use a biblical term.

Violence perpetrated by Muslims may have complex reasons, but the framework of their hatred and hostility has indeed come down to an "Us vs. Them" paradigm, which they base entirely on an Islam, which the majority does not agree with. Again, these misguided people see God on their side and have internalized exclusivist attitudes and values, which, in their thinking, separates them from the rest of the world. Heaven for them is secure, and they are prepared to act on what they falsely interpret and believe as God's promise of Heaven for their acts. They are then the chosen ones. All their acts are justified through a historical narrative of their own which reaffirms this attitude and belief that theirs is a manifest destiny and that they are purging the world of evil. To base one's claim on the moral authority or right dispensed exclusively to us by a God who we all believe is merciful and just, to achieve worldly advantage, or to stake claim to heaven, is presumptuous, pompous, and perverse. This, as the basis of interaction between Jews, Christians, and Muslims, will only increase the tensions that already exist between these groups.

The ethos of Judaism is tikkun olom - the repair of the world. It is a universal challenge reaching out to all. We are all "Chosen" to love and repair. Jews, as others, are chosen for a world of Godliness and not superiority. To say otherwise justifies the hatred of the Jews, and makes Jews God's target. Will this notion hold for any group that has suffered? Blacks, Native American Indians, Armenians? God can not be made a scapegoat for xenophobia, anti-Semitism, anti-Christianity, and anti-Muslim. We prefer to define ourselves as a choosing people: choosing goodness over demonization. Those who feel they are chosen and who "do the will of God," and those who follow chosenness foster civilizational war.

Islam came after Judaism and Christianity. Starting from this vantage point in its history, it has in its roots much that the other two offered earlier. Therefore a Muslim is a Jew before he is a Muslim, a Christian before he is Muslim. Five times daily when a Muslim offers his mandatory prayers, the format of which is set from the earliest times within it, he has to offer Peace and Blessings on the progeny of Prophet Abraham. This, along with several verses in the Quran, clearly define the inclusiveness that has been sadly absent in the thinking of many Muslims who are deluded into believing and acting on the exclusivist paradigm.

Therefore to trash Islam or to judge it condescendingly from an assumed moral high ground for the deviant acts of a few of its followers is entirely an act of historical or political opportunism which will only make a bad situation worse. Instead, there is a critical need to build on the "inclusivist" paradigm, and to refrain from mixing politics and religion, even as we sound off as religious leaders offering an understanding of the complex problems of the world, including terrorism. From the Muslim perspective, it is twice as difficult because of an onerous legacy that has perverted the true meaning of Islam. With the Governments within Muslim countries being mostly un-representative and un-caring and the masses mostly poor and uneducated, it will not be easy to undertake this critical task yet this infact is the critical need. The majority of the Muslim masses do believe in this message and are but waiting for their voices to be liberated and amplified.

Let us choose the path of understanding and pluralism. This is our true blessing.

*Nazir Khaja, M.D. - Chairman, Islamic Information Service, Torrance, CA. Tel: (310) 370-4660, Email: [email protected]

**Rabbi Steven Jacob - Temple Kol Tikvah, Woodland Hills, CA. Tel: (818) 348 0670, email: [email protected]

Source
=================================================

ALSO SEE
Fear and Fascination - The Other in Religion: A Muslim Australian Perspective

Kissing Cousins: Christians & Muslims Face to Face

Muslims and Jews: A Historical Perspective that Reveals Surprises

For These Three, Kindness Begins In the Hearts of Innocents

Jewish-Christian-Muslim Conference of Australia

Muslims in the West - Coexistence or Conflict?

Friendship with Non-Muslims According to the Qur'an

Scholars Urge Juristic Battle Against Extremismhttp://islamonline.net/English/News/2005-08/21/article06.shtml

Protection of Non-Muslims' Places of Worshiphttp://forums.muslimvillage.net/index.php?showtopic=11076&view=findpost&p=337669


[/list]

=======================

FURTHER READING

Australian Muslims Reaction & Perspective

Australian Muslims Condemn Terrorist Acts In London

Australian Muslims Condemn Blasts

Muslim Leaders Condemn Terror Attacks

Islamic Council of Victoria Condemns London Blasts(pdf)

FAIR: Badawi Condemns London Underground Bombings

Muslim Civil Rights Group Condemns Terrorist Acts In London

The West Fights A Losing Battle

Muslims Fear Reprisals

A Muslim House Divided

This Is No Way to Wage the War on Terror

Love Always Perseveres ...

To London Muslims: Speak Out Or Be Condemned For Your Silence

International Muslims Groups Condemn London Attack

Muslim Scholars, Countries Condemn London Bombings
BACKGROUND INFO
London Blasts On Tubes And Buses

7 July 2005 London Bombings
FACT CHECKING
What Is the Islamic Stance on the London Bombings?

Violence Is A Human, Not An Islamic Trait

Anatomy of Violence: Terror in Name of Islam

The Origins Of Suicidal Terrorism: An Idiot's Guide to the "Civilised" World

The London Bombings - A Time for Reflection: A Muslim Perspecitve

Will London Attack Mark A Turning Point For Extremism?

Muslim Loyalty & Belonging: Some Reflections on the Psychosocial Background

We Are All Collateral Damage

Islam in the West: The Threat of Internal Extremism

Islam, Terrorism, Myths and the Mass Media: An Interview with Hamza Yusuf

Peace and Justice in Islam

Terrorism and Islam

The Real Meaning of Jihad

Muslim Scholar: Terrorists Are Mass Murderers, Not Martyrs

The Quran on War, Peace and Justice

Friendship with Non-Muslims According to the Qur'an

Qur’anic Foundations of Muslim/Non-Muslim Relations

Does the Qur’an Teach Violence?

The International Islamic Conference: ‘True Islam and its Role in Modern Society'
ALSO SEE
Sheikh Says ASIO Raids A Political Stunt

'Holy war' Books Spark Legal Threat

Islamic Cleric Defends Australian with Al-Qaeda Links

Sunday: (Australian) Muslim vs Muslim

"I Am Behind Every Muslim In This Country'

The Bulletin: Watching the Sheik

The Ahl Sunnah wal Jama'ah Association of Australia

'Qatada's Key UK Al-Qaeda Role'

The Recruiters: Abu Qatada

MI5 and Police Ordered Illegal Break-ins @ Mosques

How I Was Betrayed By the British

The Spy Who Came In From the Mosque

Who Is Reda Hassaine?

Re: Muslim leaders condemn terrorism

Ansar Al-'Adl said:

Hello Snakelegs,

You need to distinguish between Islam's teachings and the unislamic actions performed by some you see in the media. The placards you mentioned and the violence have nothing to do with Islam's teachings so you once against commit the fallacy of identifying the criminal actions of a minority as the 'mentality' of the majority and then calling for isolation on that basis.

By all means, show me what is dangerous about my views.

Click to expand...

ansar,
we seem to be having trouble communicating. maybe i am not being clear. i do distinguish between islam's teachings and the unislamic actions performed by people. i clearly distinguished between the shariah and the actions and thinking of some muslims. i don't know how to say it any better except the problem exists with this kind of interpretation of islam and not with islam itself. and this type of thinking does not seem to be uncommon. this is the mindset that is hard for a westerner to comprehend because it is so different. and i find this type of thinking among people living in the west especially shocking. i have no way of knowing how widespread this is or how much of a threat it is. but once more, to many westerners it is simply incomprehensible and quite concerning.

You should be furious because you have consented to such a ridiculous standard all your life.

Click to expand...

could you explain this to me - i don't understand.

I never said you desired to insult and revile Islam but you certainly support the 'freedom' of others to do so, like many other westerners. So when you say that people should be allowed to propagate hateful material like van gogh's or the cartoons, without any hindrance, then you are essentially telling Muslims, "We will live in peace with you on the condition that we may revile and slander your religion as we choose." That's not peace, that's hostility. So unless you condemn the people who spread hatred too, then you can't live peacefully.

Click to expand...

ansar, are you listening to me at all? i condemn the publishing of the cartoons as an abuse of free speech. free speech should never be used to spread hate. i think it was a deliberate provocation to boost conservative parties throughout europe. i don't know why you make assumptions about my thinking. i respect other people's religions and consider it a pre-condition for peaceful co-existence.

Is it in our interpretation of Islam to carry placards calling for violence?!

Click to expand...

can we agree that rightly or wrongly, this type of interpretation exists and even on this forum? and this is alarming to me and i am not alone in this.

Your argument is completely incoherent. On one hand you keep claiming that there is a fundamental clash in our mentality and that our interpretation of Islam is not compatible with living in the west peacefully, but on the other hand when I challenge you to back it up you don't bring up issues of interpretation and understanding of Islamic teachings, instead you bring up the actions of a criminal minority that we condemn!!

Which is it?? Make up your mind - is the conflict of interest in the understanding of Islam presented on this forum, or is it in the criminal actions of a few condemned by the majority. Continually recalling violent actions condemned by the majority is the strawman fallacy, and persistently resorting to it implies that one is not here to debate, they are here to hate.

Click to expand...

i am really getting frustrated at this communication problem. i don't know how to make my concerns any clearer or more coherent than i have. i have repeatedly given you specific examples of the type of thinking that worries me. i don't want to go through the list again. i have no way of gaging how widespread this is but it's "out there".
leaving aside the cartoon issue, i have listed the type of things that worry me and have made it as clear as i can that my concern is not with islam per se but with this type of thinking, which is not at all uncommon on this very forum. one more time:
apostates should be killed.
blasphemers should be killed.
the cartoonists should be killed.
homosexuals should be killed.

So then you must also believe that the criminal actions of the Nazis necessitate that we cannot live peacefully with germans. Or that the criminal actions of 12th century crusaders means we cannot live peacefully with Christians. Is that what you wish to imply? No? Then how dare you cite the criminal actions of a few Muslims (condemned by the majority) to support the claim that you cannot live peacefully with all Muslims?!

Click to expand...

if i did not want to live peacefully with muslims i wouldn't be here and i wouldn't be straining my poor brain trying to tell you what my concerns are, would i? it's not like i don't have other things to do.
your examples above don't make sense to me.
if there was a growing number of nazis in my country i would be very alarmed. the analogy you gave doesn't make sense because you are combining past and present. also, frankly, i have no desire to co-exist with nazis and believe it is not possible so i wouldn't waste my time. obviously i don't view islam in the same category at all
if there were a number of crusader type christians running around, i would also be worried. (actually i am quite alarmed about the rise of the christian right and its influence on american policy, but that's another subject.)
i have not come to the conclusion that we can't exist - i am just on my way and i don't want to make this conclusion. i do think co-existence is impossible with this type of mentality or interpretation of islam.

You continue to resort to strawman attacks to support the unsubstantiated genocidal claim that peaceful coexistence with Muslims is impossible.

Click to expand...

this is one of the most insulting things anyone has ever said to me. it is largely my fear of such a thing that causes me to come here and try to achieve a better understanding. do you agree there is a growing backlash in europe, which is also quite troubling? and this movement is a threat to everyone, not only muslims. this is exactly why we need to come together and communicate. i consider it vital to see if this gap can be bridged before it is too late.

[QUOTEI live in a non-muslim country. I have the understanding of Islam that you claim conflicts with peaceful coexistence. And yet I get along perfectly well with the non-muslim community here and with the non-muslims in my neighborhood. I don't implement punishments for burglary or murder here because that is not my job, nor is it the job of any Muslim living in the west. It is a figment of the imagination of bigots who conjure images of Muslims in the west running around implementing vigilante justice to develop a feeling of hatred and disavowal for Muslims in the minds of Non-muslim citizens. And as is clear from the posts of many non-muslims on this forum, they have been succesful.[/QUOTE]

that's the problem. it is not a "figment of the imagination" that there are those among muslims who have the views like i gave examples of above - they really do exist and these issues need to be addressed by scholars and leaders in islam, not by imams giving hateful rabble rousing khutbas week after week (don't tell me they don't exist, please.)
i'm afraid i can't make myself any clearer.
this is a matter of great concern to me. i am terrified by any kind of bigotry and consider it a threat to all.
there are many voices of reason on this forum too - they're not the ones that alarm me.
i don't know what more i can say. these are troubling times indeed - for all of us.
peace.
p.s. i wish i had half the skills at these types of debate as you do!