This is why Turkey are part of the EU. They have more sense than the others.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- Million Protesters Gather In Istanbul
Updated: 17:52, Sunday April 29, 2007
Up to a million protesters have gathered in Istanbul accusing the government of planning an Islamist state and demanding it withdraw its presidential candidate.
Despite the Istanbul protests and a threat from the powerful army to intervene in the election, Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul, architect of Turkey's EU membership drive, said he would remain the ruling AK Party's candidate for head of state.
The protesters flooded the streets of Turkey's largest city to priase the army and denounce Gul and Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan, whose AK Party enjoys a huge parliamentary majority, as a threat to a secular order separating state and religion.
"Turkey is secular and will remain secular," they chanted.
"Turkey is under threat from the AK Party leadership. We will not be able to express our thoughts like this if they stay in power," said protester Cigdem Yilmaz, 22, a student.
Top Turkish businessmen called for early parliamentary elections, which the AK party would appear well placed to win.
Many secularists are worried by Gul's Islamist past and the fact his wife wears the Muslim headscarf banned in universities and public offices.
But the AK Party, which has vigorously pressed liberal reforms and European Union membership ambitions, since election in 2002, denies any secret agenda.
I agree with you that there are no people today who are prone from error. However, when the muslims elect someone to be a Khalifah - they choose the most pious among them. I.e. After the passing away of God's final Messenger (peace be upon him) - the most pious among the people was Abu Bakr, after him Umar, then Uthman and then Ali.
Now we know that they were really just, they loved, hoped, and feared Allaah a great deal. This is the characteristic one needs when they look for a leader since the person is scared of being disobedient to God because they know that they will be raised back infront of God to be judged on their actions and deeds performed in this life. Yet they also hope for reward from Allaah in the hereafter if they are a just ruler. This is emphasised in many Prophetic sayings, especially in regard to being just.
The Messenger of Allaah said: "I counsel you to have Taqwaa [God consciessness] of Allaah and to hear and obey, even if an Abyssinian slave were to command you. For, verily, whoever amongst you lives (to grown old), he will see many differences. So stick to my Sunnah [path] and the Sunnah of the rightly guided khaleefahs. Cling tightly onto it and hold onto it with your molar teeth. And beware of newly invented matters. For, indeed, every newly invented matter is an innovation, and every innovation is a thing that leads astray, and everything that leads astray is in the Hellfire."
[Authentically recorded in Abu Dawud]
And if we look into the Islamic history - you can see the justice of the companions of God's final Messenger, since they had the best example to follow - Muhammad, the servant and final Messenger of God Almighty.
So we can have an example to follow, since these people were humans just like us. They weren't divine in any way, yet they were aware of God and knew that we are responsible for our actions and deeds. They were successful, in this life and the next.
Regards.
I will ask again, show me one of these Islamic societies that flourished and was run justly under anyone who was appointed by men. Again I will say, only God can appoint the one who will rightfully institute his law, everyone else is a scam. If you can show me one perfect civilization with a perfect political infrastructure, then I will believe you. Until then I will wait on Jesus to come back and straighten everyone up.
There may be examples given to follow but to date no one has followed them exact. If they did they would be sinless. If these "Kalifahs" are elected to rule with Gods word and judge on behalf of God (because law is the judge of things on earth) then they must be free of all sin, an imperfect being could not do this. Take a look at Iran, you will see what happens to "Kalifahs" when they are put into power.
"War does not determine who is right - only who is left."
- Bertrand Russell
"He who fears being conquered is sure of defeat." - Napoleon Bonaparte
"There is nothing so likely to produce peace as to be well prepared to meet the
enemy." - George Washington
^^They dont have to "sinless." No is completely sinless. As humans we are prone to it. We choose the BEST and PIOUS amongst us to lead. One who is familiar with the Qur'an and Sunnah correctly.
*Without Allah, without Islam, life would be meaningless. If I've ever learned patience, it's because of this. Alhamdulillah...*
I will ask again, show me one of these Islamic societies that flourished and was run justly under anyone who was appointed by men. Again I will say, only God can appoint the one who will rightfully institute his law, everyone else is a scam. If you can show me one perfect civilization with a perfect political infrastructure, then I will believe you. Until then I will wait on Jesus to come back and straighten everyone up.
I've explained to you that the companions of God's final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) were rightly guided and applied justice since they were the rightly guided successors of God's Messenger (peace be upon him.) The same way the best people with Jesus were his companions, similarly the best people of this nation are the companions of God's final servant & Messenger Muhammad.
Anyway, if you don't believe it - you can look into the history yourself.
There may be examples given to follow but to date no one has followed them exact. If they did they would be sinless. If these "Kalifahs" are elected to rule with Gods word and judge on behalf of God (because law is the judge of things on earth) then they must be free of all sin, an imperfect being could not do this. Take a look at Iran, you will see what happens to "Kalifahs" when they are put into power.
Iran doesn't even accept the idea of the Khalifah's - they believe in the concept of Imaamah. This goes into sectarian issues so i wont go into that. But their belief system is totally different.
Regards.
Last edited by - Qatada -; 04-30-2007 at 06:21 PM.
This is all good and great but we are speaking about an islamic government here. People can worship Islam and follow Islam to the T without a government forcing them to, and many do everyday. Your own Quran says that religion is not compulsory, so if it is not why is there a need for an Islamic government? Man simply does not have the authority to assert and regulate Gods law. (Dirty = Politics, Clean = religion)
Islam means to submit to God(Allah). If someone doesn't want to submit to Allah then why are they even Muslim? and in the Quran when it says "there is no compulsion in religion" that verse is referring to non-Muslim don't have to accept Islamic Law. But Muslims have to accept Islamic law. and it is the duty of every Muslim leader(although they don't) to impose Islamic law on the Muslim lands/Country.
If Muslims have a problem with following Islamic Law(Quran an sunnah) then perhaps they need to question themselves whether or not they truly belive in Allah and his messenger(pbuh).
and in the quran Allah has given man the right to enforce islamic law on the muslims.to enjoin the good and forbid the evil.
Last edited by rania2820; 04-30-2007 at 06:43 PM.
"Religion is very easy & whoever overburdens himself in his religion won't be able to continue in that way.So you should'nt be extremists,but try to be near to perfection & receive good tidings that you'll be rewarded;& gain strength by worshipping in the mornings,the nights." (bukhari vol.1 no.38).
I've explained to you that the companions of God's final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) were rightly guided and applied justice since they were the rightly guided successors of God's Messenger (peace be upon him.) The same way the best people with Jesus were his companions, similarly the best people of this nation are the companions of God's final servant & Messenger Muhammad.
Anyway, if you don't believe it - you can look into the history yourself.
So you believe that the "people" can elect someone like this? How do the people truly know who is the most pious and rightly guided? Is each person in the country thoroughly examined, questioned and put though some tests to prove their intentions? Or is it just assumed that because they "know" of God then they are Muhammad's companion?
The point I am trying to make is that you dont truly know the people that you elect into your government, and again I will say that power always corrupts. These people are not necessarily the best to run a country. In fact they may be the worst. So again I will say, only Allah can appoint someone to rule with his word, and that being is Jesus. He is not here, so religious rule will fail and crumble under mans never ending power struggle within himself.
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Iran doesn't even accept the idea of the Khalifah's - they believe in the concept of Imaamah. This goes into sectarian issues so i wont go into that. But their belief system is totally different.
Regards.
This is very good information, I apologize for my ignorance in regard to sectarian issue. Thank you for the knowledge.
"War does not determine who is right - only who is left."
- Bertrand Russell
"He who fears being conquered is sure of defeat." - Napoleon Bonaparte
"There is nothing so likely to produce peace as to be well prepared to meet the
enemy." - George Washington
Islam means to submit to God(Allah). If someone doesn't want to submit to Allah then why are they even Muslim? and in the Quran when it says "there is no compulsion in religion" that verse is referring to non-Muslim don't have to accept Islamic Law. But Muslims have to accept Islamic law. and it is the duty of every Muslim leader(although they don't) to impose Islamic law on the Muslim lands/Country.
If Muslims have a problem with following Islamic Law(Quran an sunnah) then perhaps they need to question themselves whether or not they truly belive in Allah and his messenger(pbuh).
and in the quran Allah has given man the right to enforce islamic law on the muslims.to enjoin the good and forbid the evil.
perhaps they dont believe that in todays world religion should be involved with politics, perhaps they believe that they can follow their religion in every way without someone punishing them for every mistake they make (in regard to their religion) Perhaps they are choosing the right path
"War does not determine who is right - only who is left."
- Bertrand Russell
"He who fears being conquered is sure of defeat." - Napoleon Bonaparte
"There is nothing so likely to produce peace as to be well prepared to meet the
enemy." - George Washington
The "Romans" haven't captured Istanbul. The Turkish muslims want free speech, a freedom to "express their thoughts" and dread being an Islamic state. Just take a look at Iran. Going around arresting people for not wearing their headscarf, for showing a bit of hair, for styling their hair...
The Turkish like freedom and they know that there isn't freedom in an Islamic state.
I've been to Alanya in Turkey and they were the nicest people you could meet. They were laid back, happy, very friendly and seemed to get on with everyone, non-muslim or not. When it did come to the time to pray though, they would do it. They were as devoted to God as anyone else but the difference was that they were tolerant of other cultures and other people regardless of faith. It really is a shame that non-Turkish muslims aren't like that.
Due, in part, to the belief in the separation of church and state, secularists would prefer that politicians make decisions for secular rather than religious reasons. In this respect, policy decisions pertaining to topics like abortion, embryonic stem cell research, same-sex marriage, and sex education are prominently focused upon by American secularist organizations like, the Center for Inquiry.[2][3]
perhaps they dont believe that in todays world religion should be involved with politics, perhaps they believe that they can follow their religion in every way without someone punishing them for every mistake they make (in regard to their religion) Perhaps they are choosing the right path
im not saying that muslims have to be perfect. but if a muslim is out in the public and he does something that is un-islamic he should not be allowed to commit sin in front of others in public.as his commitng sin might influence other muslims to do the haraam.
"Religion is very easy & whoever overburdens himself in his religion won't be able to continue in that way.So you should'nt be extremists,but try to be near to perfection & receive good tidings that you'll be rewarded;& gain strength by worshipping in the mornings,the nights." (bukhari vol.1 no.38).
im not saying that muslims have to be perfect. but if a muslim is out in the public and he does something that is un-islamic he should not be allowed to commit sin in front of others in public.as his commitng sin might influence other muslims to do the haraam.
if he chooses to sin or accidentally sins, then what should be done? Also what if the person who commits the so called sin is not Muslim, is he then punished as well, even though he may not share the same beliefs. If the non Muslims commit sins they cannot be punished since they dont follow islam, so do they not influence?
"War does not determine who is right - only who is left."
- Bertrand Russell
"He who fears being conquered is sure of defeat." - Napoleon Bonaparte
"There is nothing so likely to produce peace as to be well prepared to meet the
enemy." - George Washington
It depends what kind of sin. If its anything immoral or some gruesome crime then there will be consequences. The way Christians worship God according to Islam is a sin, but thats part of their faith. And under Islamic Law, they are allowed to practice their faith freely. You get me? I hope thats right. Correct me if if I've made mistakes guys...thanks
Peace
*Without Allah, without Islam, life would be meaningless. If I've ever learned patience, it's because of this. Alhamdulillah...*
turkey claims to be a free nation.but they don't even allow a girl who wants to wear hijab to come in a university. that's just wrong. astagfirallah.and these people call themselves muslims.no wonder turkey has so many earthquakes. natural disasters is one way Allah sends his punishment onto people(and Allah knows best).
they object to any building of new masjids.astagfirallah.
may Allah help us all. Ameen!
That's just rubbish. The scientific reason for the earthquakes is Turkey is located midway between the equator and the North Pole. Not every disaster is from God and I'm absolutely positive that the REAL God wouldn't harm anyone just because they don't worship or follow Islam.
Britain isn't Islamic so don't we get too many natural disasters?
It depends what kind of sin. If its anything immoral or some gruesome crime then there will be consequences. The way Christians worship God according to Islam is a sin, but thats part of their faith. And under Islamic Law, they are allowed to practice their faith freely. You get me? I hope thats right. Correct me if if I've made mistakes guys...thanks
Peace
That is also true in secular society, so then what is the difference?
"War does not determine who is right - only who is left."
- Bertrand Russell
"He who fears being conquered is sure of defeat." - Napoleon Bonaparte
"There is nothing so likely to produce peace as to be well prepared to meet the
enemy." - George Washington
i may be ignorant but as far as i know, nobody is proposing to make turkey an islamic country, ruled by shariah. isn't want they want simply to have a government that does is not hostile to religion?
if i'm right, how is that a threat to anyone? is it right now that in a muslim majority country women are forbidden to wear headscarves in school and government offices? isn't that every bit as bad as forcing women to wear it? unless i'm badly uninformed (possible) i don't think they are talking about forcing anybody.
if the majority of the people of turkey want a more islamic-friendly government - why shouldn't they have a right to elect one?
of course, if they did, the military would swing into action. turkish secularism is a far cry from u.s. seclarism. secularism at gun point is anti-religion, not secularism.
each man thinks of his own fleas as gazelles
question authority
Of course I'm free to call it un islamic because it is. I think I know my religion better than you I'm right because thats what an Islamic State allows. I'm not talking about the so called Muslim country, I'm talking about Islam itself.
If you choose not to believe, it's either that you dont understand or it's out of ignorance (generally speaking).
*Without Allah, without Islam, life would be meaningless. If I've ever learned patience, it's because of this. Alhamdulillah...*
That is also true in secular society, so then what is the difference?
You tell me? I'm the one asking. Its no different with the secular government. Like I said, it's ok to make someone take of their hijab, which they hold close to themself as their dignity, but its not ok for someone to have some shame.
if i'm right, how is that a threat to anyone? is it right now that in a muslim majority country women are forbidden to wear headscarves in school and government offices? isn't that every bit as bad as forcing women to wear it? unless i'm badly uninformed (possible) i don't think they are talking about forcing anybody.
Yes, your correct snakelegs. That's exactly what they are doing there. I also said the same thing 2 pages ago.
Last edited by Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн; 05-01-2007 at 02:25 AM.
*Without Allah, without Islam, life would be meaningless. If I've ever learned patience, it's because of this. Alhamdulillah...*
this is exactly why I hate secularism,extremism of any type to be more exact.
I always laugh when Non-Muslims say Turkey should be a model for the entire Islamic world.Obviously we understand why they say and want such things to happen.
Living in a liberal,secular country,I must say liberalism is good but extremism of secularism is not acceptable.
Turkey is suppose to be a Muslim country. The people that live in turkey and who govern it are far from being good Muslims.
i have seen/met have friends who are Turkish - i have never been to turkey myself but i have heard from Turkish people of what life is like in Turkey. I agree with most of the comments in this thread on how can Turkish people call themselves Muslims yet go against an Islamic state? does this make sense?!?!
ok now this may only be a hunch, but i think the Turkish people want to go away from a Muslim state because they want to drink beer, and fool around with women - which they are renowned for doing.
I am a Pakistani, and would also say that Pakistan is heading towards whatever Turkey is doing, it is going away from the laws of the Nobel Quran.
this is very sad.
i recommend a Turkish movie for viewing called ¨Ice Cream I Scream¨, which i think does contain quite a bit of truth of the Turkish muslim culture (way of thinking) as it stands.
if he chooses to sin or accidentally sins, then what should be done? Also what if the person who commits the so called sin is not Muslim, is he then punished as well, even though he may not share the same beliefs. If the non Muslims commit sins they cannot be punished since they dont follow islam, so do they not influence?
if a muslims sins in a country that is under islamic law then he should be punished for the crime he has done according to what the Quran and sunnah says(different punishments for different crimes in islam).
and as for non-muslims commiting sin.under islamic law a non-muslim would still not be able to commit immoral actions (such as drinking, fornicating) in public.
"Religion is very easy & whoever overburdens himself in his religion won't be able to continue in that way.So you should'nt be extremists,but try to be near to perfection & receive good tidings that you'll be rewarded;& gain strength by worshipping in the mornings,the nights." (bukhari vol.1 no.38).
Yeah.... I want the Turkish government to give extensive freedoms to Kurds, Armenians, Greeks eg. recognising Armenian Genocide.
I think a Turkish Muslim oriented government would be a moderate ones as they're not potraying a 100% Islamists.
you say that turkey should recognise so-callled armenian genocide....ı cant believe this.....do you believe that a muslim state(ottoman empire who spreaded and pioneered islam for 600 years) can do such a genocide,can kill so many people....when ı read your post ı understand again and again why muslim are so weak in world... my muslim brother believes in armanians but not turks
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Keep it up Turkey, you know what's best (OP)
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I'm right because thats what an Islamic State allows. I'm not talking about the so called Muslim country, I'm talking about Islam itself.
my muslim brother believes in armanians but not turks
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