Both sides suffer .. who is the victim?

Aaron85 said:

i just wanted to show that in this conflict not only Arabs are victims and Jews not only are the killers.We must remember victims of both sides, otherwise we won't understand this conflict.Arabic and Jewish blood is the same, believe me.Both sides suffer. And both sides must try as hard as they can to make peace and live together like civilizated nations.It can be done, but both sides must agree on compromise.

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after you see this picture .. can you answer me?











If you are right ... why those jews Against zionism? Against the occupation?

the Only answer is because they still have hearts ... to know the reality



Rachel Corrie, a 23-year-old student from Olympia, Washington, was murdered while attempting to prevent an Israeli army bulldozer from demolishing a Palestinian home near the southern Gaza city of Rafah. Despite being dressed in a bright colored orange vest, with reflective stripes, and carrying a bullhorn in broad daylight, Israel claimed the soldier driving a 52 ton D-9 bulldozer “could not see” his victim, as he mercilessly crushed her.

When photographs emerged clearly depicting this horrific crime, the Israeli military immediately accused Rachel Corrie of being “irresponsible,” as though this justified deliberate death. Adding insult to injury, in a recent tasteless commentary printed in Israel’s most popular English language newspaper, The Jerusalem Post, the writer is appalled by the exploitive use of the photographs, rather than the murder they so clearly document.

Rachel Corrie was the first US citizen to fall victim to Israel’s indiscriminate lethal force; her death remains ruled as an accident, without any objections from the American government. In fact, the perpetuation of the most brutal (and last remaining) military occupation in history “enjoys” the cover of impunity provided by its strategic alliance with the US, which has produced an alarming formula for lawlessness, radicalization, violence, and destabilization.

And so, it is with the blessings of the US that Corrie’s killer walks free. As Israeli tanks roll through Palestinian villages, towns, and refugee camps; as Apache gunships shell homes and assassinate their human targets; as Palestinian land is stolen and Israeli settlements are expanding; as Israeli prisons swell with Palestinians and the separation wall turns all Palestinian areas into prisons and isolation cells; Washington turns a blind eye.

If you are right .. why she stand beside us ... Against Israel?

the Only answer is because she still have a heart ... to know the reality





If this house is yours







if this family is yours

what's your reaction then?

Aaron85 said:

The problem is that Jews were first in Israel, not muslim arabs.

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You said that israeli have right to live in our land? To kill us ? To destroy our home? To violate our sacred place? To refuse us to pray in farthest mosque? Because Jews were first in Israel?!

Why we should suffer jews faults and sins .. Now after 3000 years?

peace be with those who have hearts.

mariam. said:

after you see this picture .. can you answer me?

.

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Those Jews belong to Neturei Karta. They are treated as traitors and insane by great majority of Jews. They took part in a meeting made by Iran president Ahmadinejad about denial of Holocaust. I will tell you, Neturei Karta is treated by great majorrity of Jews (also orthodox Jews) just like Salman Rushdie,Ali Sina and Ayaan Hirsi Ali by majority of muslims, as traitors.

mariam. said:

You said that israeli have right to live in our land? To kill us ? To destroy our home? To violate our sacred place? To refuse us to pray in farthest mosque? Because Jews were first in Israel?!

Why we should suffer jews faults and sins .. Now after 3000 years?

peace be with those who have hearts.

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Hey hey, i didnt say that Jews should kill and persecute Palestinians.I want those two suffering nations to live in peace and tolerance.But do you want the same? Do you know that Hamas' aims is to clean Israel with all Jews? You keep saying that it is your land. But are you ready to share this Land with Jews? Or you also wanna send them to Europe like many muslims say. In fact Jews always lived in Israel, and Arabs dont have more rights to this Land than Jews.Are you ready for a compromise? Or you prefer fighting till the last drop of Jewish and Arabic blood? I have to say it clearly, i really understand the suffering of palestinians, but without suicide attacks there would be no agrresive responses of Israeli Army.
We must say at the end the conclusion. Arabs will never destroy Israel( they tried so many times and failed) and Israel wont kill all Palestinians. We must all deal with this. The only question is, do you want peace so much to get on compromise and let Israel exist or not.

Regards.

Arabs for Israel- zNonie Darwish

Now They Call Me Infidel : Why I Renounced Jihad for America, Israel, and the War on Terror (Hardcover) is Nonie Darwish's personal story of tragedy and redemption, as well as a scholarly analysis of Middle-Eastern culture. Every Western statesman, indeed every European and American citizen will benefit from Ms. Darwish's unique insights into the danger to Western civilization posed by Radical Islam and sustained by deep-rooted Arab/Muslim cultural dynamics.

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Walid Shoebat

An organization that cries out for the Justice of Israel and the Jewish people.

The Holocaust never ended but the victims have decided to defend themselves.

The occupation is in the minds of Children who are taught hatred.

Ex Terrorists appear on CN8.

Israel was the solution for the world’s greatest refugee problem that went on for two thousand years

Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian?

Walid's interview with Gerry Ryan, Ireland's highest rated radio talk show.

When I finally realized the lies and myths I was taught, it is my duty as a righteous person to speak out

The Israeli Arab Conflict is not about geography but about Jew hatred; Throughout the Islamic as well as Christendom's history Jews have been persecuted, the persecution of Israel is just the same as the old antisemitism.

The Arab refugees are being used as pawns' to create a terror breeding ground, as a form of aggression against Israel.

The Arab refugee problem was caused by Arab aggression and not Israel. Why should Israel be responsible for their fate?
Walid on Fox News' O'Reilly Factor.

No one (Arab or Jew) has a "right of return". Jews who fled Arab persecution from 1948 to 1956 should have no right of return to Arab lands, and Arabs who ran away in 1948 and 1967 should have no right of return either. This should end all argument. Yet the Jews accept this judgment, while the Arabs reject EVERYTHING. - Walid Shoebat

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Aaron, we're falling back into the same traps again aren't we? How come you choose to ignore all my previous posts? How are we to say that what you say is the truth? When i've continuously given you proof that what is being done by the Jews is actually a 'part of the religion.' And many acts which are done 'in the name of Islaam' aren't part of the religion, infact they're contradicting Islamic teachings?


If you can't remember, i think i'll just quote them again for you:

Aaron85 said:

I wonder if Palestinians would do the same with jewish child...I want to believe that answer is -yes.

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Fi_Sabilillah said:

Infact they would, and not just that - they did it for many many centuries. Not just for the children, but for all the Jewish people who wanted to settle in the Islamic State. As stated before, because they wanted to flee from other states who were ready to kill them.


That's a kool article by the way, thanks. There are some good people out there from both sides, alhamdulillah (the praise is for Allaah.)

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Fi_Sabilillah said:

Thankyou Aaron. Since we're supposed to refer to the religious texts to verify what is being done is correct according to that religion, lets take a sneak look.


Let's take a look at the Jewish scripture:

“When you approach a city to fight against it, you shall offer it terms of peace. If it agrees to make peace with you and opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall become your forced labor and shall serve you.

However, if it does not make peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. When the LORD your God gives it into your hand, you shall strike all the men in it with the edge of the sword. Only the women and the children and the animals and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourself; and you shall use the spoil of your enemies which the LORD your God has given you… Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes

(Deutronomy 20:10-17)


Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves.

(Numbers 31:17-18)



Let's look at the Islamic Perspective:


Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.

[Qur'an 2: 190]


The Messenger of Allaah said:

“Do not kill any old person, any child, or any woman.” [Abu Dawud]

“Do not kill the monks in monasteries,” or “Do not kill the people who are sitting in places of worship.” [Musnad Ahmad]

Narrated Anas ibn Malik: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: Go in Allah's name, trusting in Allah, and adhering to the religion of Allah's Apostle. Do not kill a decrepit old man, or a young infant, or a child, or a woman; do not be dishonest about booty, but collect your spoils, do right and act well, for Allah loves those who do well. (Sunan Abu Dawud , Book 14, Number 2608)


It is narrated by Ibn 'Umar that a woman was found killed in one of these battles; so the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) forbade the killing of women and children.

[Sahih Muslim, Book 019, Number 4320]


​

hm.. i wonder who seems innocent now?

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So it's really ironic you're throwing the same arguments again, especially when we've given you the correct view to it.




Regards.

So it's really ironic you're throwing the same arguments again, especially when we've given you the correct view to it.

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So the correct view is to say that Hamas and Hesbullah terrorism is justified by this tragic situation?
And i gave here also a example that citizens of my country lived under worse occupation and they did NOT use terror against enemie's civilians.
So what you want me actually to say? Do you want me to say- ah lets give c Hamas and Hesbullah chance to kill all the Jews?
Because i really dont understand you.Maybe you should read my posts again i guess, as i said that i want PEACE for both sides o this conflict, and hapinnes for them. But please dont tell me to say that Hamas is peace loving innocent group fighting with pure methods. And please dont tell me "but".. Either someone is terrorist or he is not. There is no "but" in this.Just like someone is a racist from Ku Klux Klan and desreves to be condemned by me, and also a Hamas member is terrorist, deserved to be condemned by YOU.

The Israeli Arab Conflict is not about geography but about Jew hatred; Throughout the Islamic as well as Christendom's history Jews have been persecuted, the persecution of Israel is just the same as the old antisemitism.

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I'm not sure if this is some kind of sick joke. The more we keep throwing useless words such as 'anti-semitism' around, the more we forget about the real issue at hand, whether you support the jews 'right' to a homeland or not, one cannot simply ignore the oppression, the injustice, the murder, the rape and the overall destruction that Israel continues to inflict on a defenceless people.

Will all due respect, from the point of view of an outsider, this debate technique of pointing to a couple of lines in a religious document which was transcribed or recollected in a foreign language (perhaps by many authors many years after the fact) over 1000 years ago or even as much as several thousand years ago and then proudly proclaiming "my side is right" seems anachronistic and slightly silly.

There is an old joke....a monk who has spents years bent over ancient texts deciphering forgotten dialects on moldy paper suddenly rushes upstairs to the dinner hall where all the other monks are eating dinner and jumps for joy proclaiming, "Hey guys! There was a mistake in translation. It says 'celebrate' not 'celibate'!"

Aaron85 said:

So the correct view is to say that Hamas and Hesbullah terrorism is justified by this tragic situation?
And i gave here also a example that citizens of my country lived under worse occupation and they did NOT use terror against enemie's civilians.
So what you want me actually to say? Do you want me to say- ah lets give c Hamas and Hesbullah chance to kill all the Jews?
Because i really dont understand you.Maybe you should read my posts again i guess, as i said that i want PEACE for both sides o this conflict, and hapinnes for them. But please dont tell me to say that Hamas is peace loving innocent group fighting with pure methods. And please dont tell me "but".. Either someone is terrorist or he is not. There is no "but" in this.Just like someone is a racist from Ku Klux Klan and desreves to be condemned by me, and also a Hamas member is terrorist, deserved to be condemned by YOU.

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If someone goes against Islamic teachings, then they're not doing the correct thing. Infact, there are Islamic scholars who even say that if the enemy fights and kills Muslim women and children, we still SHOULDN'T go down to their level to kill theirs.


Refer to this link:
http://www.islamicboard.com/arabic/41667-can-someone-translate-me-tafsir-al-qurtubi.html


These Islamic teachings are of a higher moral level than the 'morals/ethics' of today, which is supposed to be 'the most civilized.'


The reason why i'm disappointed at your posts is because you class the Muslims as evildoers - when i've told you that it's not part of Islaam, even if some people do it. Yet you don't find nothing evil at all, when it's something that's totally ENCOURAGED in Judaism and mentioned in their scripture. And you don't think that they're terrorists.

/Peace To All

Both sides do suffer and have their victims. But, the suffering and victimization is disproportionate. Therefore, Palestinian suffering and victimization outweighs that of the Israeli's.

To try to equate both sides is ridiculous and a slap in the face of the Palestinians and Arabs in general (and I'm not saying anyone here has done that. That's the general view I am left with, when seeing this in the media or discussing it with others outside this forum).

There is no equality between a criminal and the victim. If the victim chooses to defend him/herself and in the process, and the criminal is hurt in the process, then to equate both acts of violence is totally wrong and propagandistic...

Zman said:

/Peace To All

Both sides do suffer and have their victims. But, the suffering and victimization is disproportionate. Therefore, Palestinian suffering and victimization outweighs that of the Israeli's.

To try to equate both sides is ridiculous and a slap in the face of the Palestinians and Arabs in general (and I'm not saying anyone here has done that. That's the general view I am left with, when seeing this in the media or discussing it with others outside this forum).

There is no equality between a criminal and the victim. If the victim chooses to defend him/herself and in the process, and the criminal is hurt in the process, then to equate both acts of violence is totally wrong and propagandistic...

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So according to your thinking, victims are the Hamas members and the criminals are the civilians in Israeli cities.
How typical.

Aaron85 said:

Those Jews belong to Neturei Karta. They are treated as traitors and insane by great majority of Jews. They took part in a meeting made by Iran president Ahmadinejad about denial of Holocaust. I will tell you, Neturei Karta is treated by great majorrity of Jews (also orthodox Jews) just like Salman Rushdie,Ali Sina and Ayaan Hirsi Ali by majority of muslims, as traitors.

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SO, you answer me ..



Those Jews belong to Neturei Karta .. what about the Others ?!



don't tell me that all those jews are traitors .. that's impossible.

what about Rachel Corrie? don't tell me that she is traitor either.

Aaron85 said:

Hey hey, i didnt say that Jews should kill and persecute Palestinians.I want those two suffering nations to live in peace and tolerance.But do you want the same? Do you know that Hamas' aims is to clean Israel with all Jews? You keep saying that it is your land. But are you ready to share this Land with Jews? Or you also wanna send them to Europe like many muslims say. In fact Jews always lived in Israel, and Arabs dont have more rights to this Land than Jews.Are you ready for a compromise? Or you prefer fighting till the last drop of Jewish and Arabic blood? I have to say it clearly, i really understand the suffering of palestinians, but without suicide attacks there would be no agrresive responses of Israeli Army.
We must say at the end the conclusion. Arabs will never destroy Israel( they tried so many times and failed) and Israel wont kill all Palestinians. We must all deal with this. The only question is, do you want peace so much to get on compromise and let Israel exist or not.

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actually I understand your view .. but I can't agree with you, Iam sorry



have ever hear about the palestinian emigrants?
do you know how many palestinian emigrants there is?



they are 7 million ... are you understand what I want to said

the peace with those people is impossible ..

please answer me how Arabs dont have more rights to this Land than Jews.

what about those 7 million?









every one of them still have his house's key .. he still remamber his land and trees ...

... you can't never compare between the two sides.

Conclusion: Some Jews support Israel, some Jews support Palestine
Some Muslims support Palestine, some Muslims support Israel.

Israel was a very stupid mistake. Hard to believe they didn't see the present situation coming. But it is done now, and there is a whole generation of Israelis who were born in Israel and moving them now would just be compounding the injustice that was moving the palestinians their grandparents displaced.

The Jews and Palestinians just need to find a way to coexist.

Why can't palestinians just be integrated into Israel as equal citizens?

Frankly, I'm sick of the whole conflict. It has been diverting attention away from other important areas of concern for decades now.

Just a thought, but perhaps what they need is a common threat to rally against, to bring them toghether. Maybe we should announce to them that they must find a way to peacefully coexist within a certain timeframe, or we will whipe them both out.

Pygoscelis said:

The Jews and Palestinians just need to find a way to coexist.

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Agree!!!!!!!!:thumbs_up

Pygoscelis said:

Why can't palestinians just be integrated into Israel as equal citizens?

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Or Israelis integrated into Palestine as equal citizens.

Or Both integrated into a country known as Republic of the Holy Land, or Palestinian and Israeli Republic.

Or two states in accordance to the Green Lines. But sharing Jerusalem.

There are zillions of solutions for this conflict.... but...

Pygoscelis said:

Frankly, I'm sick of the whole conflict. It has been diverting attention away from other important areas of concern for decades now.

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I'm even more sick looking at the Palestinians fighting each others...

Pygoscelis:753774 said:

...or we will whipe them both out.

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and make the land as natural sanctuary for wild animals.... yeah... why not.

The Israeli Arab Conflict is not about geography but about Jew hatred; Throughout the Islamic as well as Christendom's history Jews have been persecuted

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True, but there is a reason for this. Maybe you should start asking yourself why the Jews were and are hated?

some Muslims support Israel

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Strongly disagree unless they are ignorant.

''GET OUT'' i say to the jews, the land is not yours and you will never live happy ever after, inshallah the muslim palestinians will have there land back, becusause it is THER'S!

and that is why Hamas, and the rest of the groups are fighting to get there land back! and they will never stop until inshallah we will have it back!

It is the Israeiles fault, and they will just have 2 live with it, Inshllah when the time comes muslims will dominate, and muslims will all rise against the kufr who are killing and remmeber WE will get OUR land back!

I dont have the hadith, but I am certain that is says WE should DEFEND our Land, wealth, FAMILLY ETC.

north_malaysian said:

I'm even more sick looking at the Palestinians fighting each others...

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you are right .. that's harder than any other Israeli violation.

Gangster No.1 said:

''GET OUT'' i say to the jews, the land is not yours and you will never live happy ever after, inshallah the muslim palestinians will have there land back, becusause it is THER'S!

and that is why Hamas, and the rest of the groups are fighting to get there land back! and they will never stop until inshallah we will have it back!

It is the Israeiles fault, and they will just have 2 live with it, Inshllah when the time comes muslims will dominate, and muslims will all rise against the kufr who are killing and remmeber WE will get OUR land back!

I dont have the hadith, but I am certain that is says WE should DEFEND our Land, wealth, FAMILLY ETC.

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"And We decreed for the Children of Israel in the Book, that twice would they do mischief on the earth and be elated with mighty arrogance (and twice would they be punished)!

When the first of the warnings came to pass, We sent against you Our servants given to terrible warfare. They entered the very inmost parts of your homes; and it was a warning (completely) fulfilled.

Then did We grant you victory over them: We gave you increase in resources and sons, and made you the more numerous in man-power.

If ye did well, ye did well for yourselves; if ye did evil, (ye did it) against yourselves. So when the second of the warnings came to pass, (We permitted your enemies) to disfigure your faces, and to enter your Temple as they had entered it before, and to visit with destruction all that fell into their power.

It may be that your Lord may (yet) show Mercy unto you; but if ye revert (to your sins), We shall revert (to Our punishments): And we have made Hell a prison for those who reject (all Faith)." (4-8:Al-Isrá)

may God blessing you brother .... thank you

Gangster No.1 said:

''GET OUT'' i say to the jews, the land is not yours and you will never live happy ever after, inshallah the muslim palestinians will have there land back, becusause it is THER'S!

and that is why Hamas, and the rest of the groups are fighting to get there land back! and they will never stop until inshallah we will have it back!

It is the Israeiles fault, and they will just have 2 live with it, Inshllah when the time comes muslims will dominate, and muslims will all rise against the kufr who are killing and remmeber WE will get OUR land back!

I dont have the hadith, but I am certain that is says WE should DEFEND our Land, wealth, FAMILLY ETC.

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Israelis survived Holocaust, they survived 2000 years without own state, they will survive arabs' hatred as well. Your civilan murderers from Hamas won't destroy Israel.

/Peace To All

Originally Posted by Aaron85
I wonder if Palestinians would do the same with jewish child...I want to believe that answer is -yes.

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I would like to point out the following:

Compare how many Palestinian children who were saved by Jews, To those Palestinian children who have been deliberately targeted for murder and in what is euphemistcally termed as "Collateral Damage," by Jews...