I need proof from The Noble Quran that music is haraam.

format_quote Originally Posted by samah12

I would be very interested to know where you are getting this quote from because to me it looks like a blatant innovation.

Will you interpret the Qur'an to your own view or the ones that came before of the Companions and the Salaf? It has already been explained what the understanding of this verse was of the Salaf and the one who goes against their way has deviated. They understood it to be musical instruments and thus in the parenthesis is their tafsir of the verse. As far as I know, explaining a verse according the understanding of the Salaf is not an innovation.

But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you (O Muhammad SAW) judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission. [4: 65]

The Ahadith are very clear and it is a very grave matter to leave them to follow one's one desires.

format_quote Originally Posted by samah12

Thank you for your comment brother but I was not suggesting that the interpretation is an innovation. I was saying that by including the interpreation in the Quranic verse is creating an innovation because those words are read by people as being the words written in the Quran, which they are not.

Not really, since it's only for making it easier to understand, and the material itself is authentic since its based on the statements of the Salaf.

We can quote various scholars all day and night, you from your point of view and me from mine but until I am convinced of an interpretation I will stand by my views, not in order to "follow my desires" but because I will not be led astray from the Quran by any man's interpretion.

The opinion of an 'alim or mujtahid, however great, does not take the weight of an evidence in and of itself. That is why you were provided with clear Ahadith and the Companion's understanding of it. If you refer to the Companion's interpretation as simply a 'man's interpretation', taking other's interpretation over theirs, then you're walking down a dangerous path.

What is being declared Haram is musical instruments. Islamic Nasheeds are permissible as long as they don't contain musical instruments etc.

See this thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...an-sunnah.html
The Ruling on Islamic Nasheeds

Because of this thread I have not slept for 2 days, I am determined to find out why a man that leads prayer in Mecca has a song, with video, on Arabic television, if music is indeed haraam. So please do not think I have closed my mind to this.

We do not base our religion on whether a person even if he leads prayer in Makkah has music in his video or not. We base it on the Qur'an and the Sunnah and the understanding of the Salaf.

format_quote Originally Posted by samah12

Firstly, you add to the words of the Quran and say it is ok because the material is 'authentic'. My reply - The jurist Abu Bakr al-'Arabi says, "No sound hadith is available concerning the prohibition of singing," and Ibn Hazm says, "All that is reported on this subject is false and fabricated ". Do you think these two learned men would agree that it is ok to add to the words of Allah the material you say is 'authentic'?

There is an ihkhilaf regarding singing, and they were among the scholars that allowed it. However, the ones that came before them clearly forbade it.

Secondly you say That is why you were provided with clear Ahadith and the Companion's understanding of it. If you refer to the Companion's interpretation as simply a 'man's interpretation', taking other's interpretation over theirs, then you're walking down a dangerous path. My reply - Ibn 'Abbas said, " 'Aishah gave a girl relative of hers in marriage to a man of the Ansar. The Prophet (peace be on him) came and asked, 'Did you send a singer along with her?' 'No,' said 'Aishah. The Messenger of Allah (peace be on him) then said, The Ansar are a people who love poetry. You should have sent along someone who would sing" (Reported by Ibn Majah.) So do you say this is not authentic? And if you do please explain your personal criteria for authenticity.

This proves you did not read what I linked you to. Marriage is one of the exceptions and it clearly says that in the thread I linked you to.

http://www.islamicboard.com/300475-post7.html

Thirdly you say- We do not base our religion on whether a person even if he leads prayer in Makkah has music in his video or not. We base it on the Qur'an and the Sunnah and the understanding of the Salaf. My reply - surely we base our religion on the Quran first and foremost, before any hadith, sunnah, companion or scholars opinion. Posts in this thread have repeatedly asked for the verse(s) in the Quran that prohibit music and because the Quran does not contain a verse that specifically prohibits music we always end up with the same debates about 'opinions'.

You are mistaken. The Qur'an and the Sunnah/Hadith have EQUAL weight in matters. Therefore, if the Messenger forbade something, it is as if Allaah has forbidden it. You will not find details of fasting, Zakat, Hajj etc in the Qur'an, you find them in the Hadith. Exactly like that, this is also mentioned in the Hadith which is authentic. And because of that your arguement here is invalid.

And We have also sent down unto you (O Muhammad SAW) the reminder and the advice (the Quran), that you may explain clearly to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought. [16:44]

A great example is that of the much quoted hadith "The Prophet (pbuh) said "There will be people from my ummah those who will seek to make lawful: fornication, the wearing of silk, wine-drinking, and the use of musical
instruments (ma'azif). Some people will stay at the side of a mountain and
when their shepherd comes in the evening to ask them for his needs, they will
say, 'return to us tomorrow.' Then Allah will destroy them during the night
by causing the mountain to fall on them, while he changes others into apes and swine. They will remain in such a state until the Day of
Resurrection. Related by Imam Al-Bukhari in Fat-hul Baari

So how do you explain this?

"Say (O Muhammad), "I have no power to benefit myself, or harm myself. Only what God wills happen to me. If I KNEW THE FUTURE, I would have increased my wealth, and no harm would have afflicted me. I am no more than a warner, and a bearer of good news for those who believe." 7:188

The fallacity of your arguement here is that you have a predetermined explanation of the verse, and then you cite that very explanation to 'prove' your point.

Now let me explain. The Messenger does not know of the Unseen except that which Allaah has informed him of it. There were many prophecies in the Hadith which have come true, here is a compiled list of them:
http://www.islamicboard.com/6616-post5.html

The knowledge of those events was revealed to the Messenger from Allaah even though it is not part of the Qur'an.

The fallacy of rejecting Hadith comes from ignorance and I won't go into that here. So I ask you to before you criticze authentic Hadith, to atleast learn them. Since you quoted Ibn Hazm, take this quote from him as well:

Kitaabul Ahkaam: “When there comes the text (of a hadeeth) and no two Muslims differ on its correctness and authenticity as having come from the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) and being what he has in fact said, then it is obligatory to follow it. It (i.e. the sunnah) is the explanation of what Allah intends in the Qur'aan and clarification of what has been mentioned without details.”

I hope you do not reject Hadith simply because you fail to understand them. Please check this thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...ct-hadith.html

Now, lets get back on topic.

http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...tml#post698732


^ is this not enough proof?

do we not take ayyah WITH explenation of how the sahabi's understood it? is this not acceptable?

why must we dwelve further?

what is this?

Regarding Ibn Hazm that you quoted from him, he has also said this in Tawq Al Hamamah, where he wrote briefly about the factors that led to the destruction of the Islamic society in Spain almost 1,000 years ago. Keep in mind this is coming from a scholar who himself allowed listening to singing. But never did he - nor any of the Muslim scholars of or before his time - permit the enjoyment of the voice of a foreign woman.

"It is forbidden for the Muslim to enjoy the song-like voice of a woman who is foreign to him."

Later on in the book, he continued:

"And I will describe something to you that you see with your own eyes: and that is that I have never seen a woman in any place who senses that a man is looking at or listening to her, except that she begins to gesture in a way that she not normally gesture, and begins to make remarks the likes of which she was not making before, and you would see her pay more attention to how she articulates her words and how she varies her postures - in an obvious and non-subtle manner. Men do the same thing if they sense the presence of women. As for the showing off of physical features, straightening of the walk, and emergence of flirtatious behavior that occurs when men and women come to be in each other's presence or cross each other's paths, then this is clearer than the Sun in every place.

Allah - the Mighty and Exalted - Said: {"Tell the believers to lower their eyes and protect their private parts..."} [an-Nur; 30], and He Said: {"And let the women not tap with their feet, making their hidden ornaments known..."} [an-Nur; 31]

Were it not for Allah's knowledge of the soft manner in which women droop their eyelids when attempting to win the affection of men's hearts, and the vile plans that they secretly concoct in order to rouse a man's desires, He would never have revealed a verse regarding something so remote."

['Tawq al-Hamamah'; p. 97]

So how can you argue for singing using him when the quote is out of context, and the songs of then cannot be compared to the songs of today?

Al Madani, Thank you for this information. I am not going to reply yet because you have given me much food for thought and I need to do some research now. Please keep watching this thread I will reply when I have worked my way through your comments.

Peace

Insha'Allaah.

Ma’aazif is the plural of mi’zafah, and refers to musical instruments (Fath al-Baari, 10/55), instruments which are played (al-Majmoo’, 11/577).

Al-Qurtubi (may Allaah have mercy on him) narrated from al-Jawhari (may Allaah have mercy on him) that ma’aazif means singing. In his Sihaah it says that it means musical instruments. It was also said that it refers to the sound of the instruments.

In al-Hawaashi by al-Dimyaati (may Allaah have mercy on him) it says: ma’aazif means drums (dufoof, sing. daff) and other instruments which are struck or beaten (Fath al-Baari, 10/55).

Evidence of prohibition in the Qur’aan and Sunnah:

Allaah says in Soorat Luqmaan (interpretation of the meaning):

“And of mankind is he who purchases idle talks (i.e. music, singing) to mislead (men) from the path of Allaah…” [Luqmaan 31:6]

The scholar of the ummah, Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: this means singing. Mujaahid (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: this means playing the drum (tabl). (Tafseer al-Tabari, 21/40).

Al-Hasan al-Basri (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: this aayah was revealed concerning singing and musical instruments (lit. woodwind instruments). (Tafseer Ibn Katheer, 3/451).

Al-Sa’di (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: this includes all manner of haraam speech, all idle talk and falsehood, and all nonsense that encourages kufr and disobedience; the words of those who say things to refute the truth and argue in support of falsehood to defeat the truth; and backbiting, slander, lies, insults and curses; the singing and musical instruments of the Shaytaan; and musical instruments which are of no spiritual or worldly benefit. (Tafseer al-Sa’di, 6/150)

Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: The interpretation of the Sahaabah and Taabi’in, that ‘idle talk’ refers to singing, is sufficient. This was reported with saheeh isnaads from Ibn ‘Abbaas and Ibn Mas’ood. Abu’l-Sahbaa’ said: I asked Ibn Mas’ood about the aayah (interpretation of the meaning), ‘“And of mankind is he who purchases idle talks’ [Luqmaan 31:6]. He said: By Allaah, besides Whom there is no other god, this means singing – and he repeated it three times.

It was also reported with a saheeh isnaad from Ibn ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with them both) that this means singing. There is no contradiction between the interpretation of “idle talk” as meaning singing and the interpretation of it as meaning stories of the Persians and their kings, and the kings of the Romans, and so on, such as al-Nadr ibn al-Haarith used to tell to the people of Makkah to distract them from the Qur’aan. Both of them are idle talk.

Hence Ibn ‘Abbaas said: “Idle talk” is falsehood and singing. Some of the Sahaabah said one and some said the other, and some said both. Singing is worse and more harmful than stories of kings, because it leads to zinaa and makes hypocrisy grow (in the heart); it is the trap of the Shaytaan, and it clouds the mind. The way in which it blocks people from the Qur’aan is worse than the way in which other kinds of false talk block them, because people are naturally inclined towards it and tend to want to listen to it. The aayaat condemn replacing the Qur’aan with idle talk in order to mislead (men) from the path of Allaah without knowledge and taking it as a joke, because when an aayah of the Qur’aan is recited to such a person, he turns his back as if he heard them not, as if there were deafness in his ear. If he hears anything of it, he makes fun of it. All of this happens only in the case of the people who are most stubbornly kaafirs and if some of it happens to singers and those who listen to them, they both have a share of this blame. (Ighaathat al-Lahfaan, 1/258-259).

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“[Allaah said to Iblees:] And befool them gradually those whom you can among them with your voice (i.e. songs, music, and any other call for Allaah’s disobedience)…” [al-Israa’ 17:64]

It was narrated that Mujaahid (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “And befool them gradually those whom you can among them with your voice” – his voice [the voice of Iblees/Shaytaan] is singing and falsehood.

Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: This idaafah [possessive or genitive construction, i.e., your voice] serves to make the meaning specific, as with the phrases [translated as] “your cavalry” and “your infantry” [later in the same aayah]. Everyone who speaks in any way that is not obedient to Allaah, everyone who blows into a flute or other woodwind instrument, or who plays any haraam kind of drum, this is the voice of the Shaytaan. Everyone who walks to commit some act of disobedience towards Allaah is part of his [the Shaytaan’s] infantry, and anyone who rides to commit sin is part of his cavalry. This is the view of the Salaf, as Ibn ‘Abi Haatim narrated from Ibn ‘Abbaas: his infantry is everyone who walks to disobey Allaah. (Ighaathat al-Lahfaan). (islamqa.com)

hopefully this will be enough for u as an evidence

Allah knows best n may Allah guide us all

format_quote Originally Posted by Al Madani

Regarding Ibn Hazm that you quoted from him, he has also said this in Tawq Al Hamamah, where he wrote briefly about the factors that led to the destruction of the Islamic society in Spain almost 1,000 years ago. Keep in mind this is coming from a scholar who himself allowed listening to singing. But never did he - nor any of the Muslim scholars of or before his time - permit the enjoyment of the voice of a foreign woman.

"It is forbidden for the Muslim to enjoy the song-like voice of a woman who is foreign to him."

Later on in the book, he continued:

"And I will describe something to you that you see with your own eyes: and that is that I have never seen a woman in any place who senses that a man is looking at or listening to her, except that she begins to gesture in a way that she not normally gesture, and begins to make remarks the likes of which she was not making before, and you would see her pay more attention to how she articulates her words and how she varies her postures - in an obvious and non-subtle manner. Men do the same thing if they sense the presence of women. As for the showing off of physical features, straightening of the walk, and emergence of flirtatious behavior that occurs when men and women come to be in each other's presence or cross each other's paths, then this is clearer than the Sun in every place.

Allah - the Mighty and Exalted - Said: {"Tell the believers to lower their eyes and protect their private parts..."} [an-Nur; 30], and He Said: {"And let the women not tap with their feet, making their hidden ornaments known..."} [an-Nur; 31]

Were it not for Allah's knowledge of the soft manner in which women droop their eyelids when attempting to win the affection of men's hearts, and the vile plans that they secretly concoct in order to rouse a man's desires, He would never have revealed a verse regarding something so remote."

['Tawq al-Hamamah'; p. 97]

So how can you argue for singing using him when the quote is out of context, and the songs of then cannot be compared to the songs of today?



Insha'Allaah.

Salaam Aleykom Brother

I have spent 18 hours today researching this on the net and can say with absolute honesty I am no further forward. I am prepared to open myself up to further ridicule and explain my dilemma (not referring to yourself whose discussion I have found very constructive).

Your comments made me truly stand back and question my view, which is always a good thing. I have found so many sites discussing this issue and have tried to read through many of them with an unbiased view. Unfortunately, when I read the argument for music being haraam it swayed me but then I read the argument that music praising Allah is not haraam and I found myself swayed by these arguments also and yet others that say any music not encouraging you to sin is not haraam, I am less swayed by this.

My conclusion is this: I simply do not have the knowledge to come to a correct conclusion on this issue. Insh'allah my husband and I will go to Mecca at Ramadan and I shall leave this question open in my mind until then. I hope you will not disagree that I am most likely to get the definitive answer from Mecca. Whatever answer I get in Mecca I shall of course accept and also post on this site.

Thank you brother for opening my mind to this question.

format_quote Originally Posted by samah12

I have spent 18 hours today researching this on the net and can say with absolute honesty I am no further forward.

Suggestion :

Ditch the internet and go study under a shaykh who has got an Ijaza to teach Islam. A shaykh who has Earnt his Ijaza by studying under Shaykhs who earnt their Ijazas through a unbroken golden chain of narrators.

Not just any1 who claims to follow 'the quran and sunnah'.

You won't find many shaykhs who have an ijaza to teach online, but yes, you will definetly find alot of so called 'followers of the quran and sunnah' online.

[QUOTE=samah12;699929]

It is comments like this that make me regret reverting to Islam and seriously question whether it was the right thing to do!!!!!!!!

QUOTE]


how can u say that subhanalah!!!

Ibn Mas`ud said,
“The love of the Quran and the love of music cannot combine in the heart of a believer.”

taken from ar-riqaq thread

format_quote Originally Posted by Ruwaydah

Ibn Mas`ud said,
“The love of the Quran and the love of music cannot combine in the heart of a believer.”

taken from ar-riqaq thread

jazakAllah khair ukhtee.

wallahi such a little sentence can give imense strength to the heart!

the prophet saws got strengthened by the ways of his previous prophets and we get strengthened by them and also by our sahabi's, mashaAllah

format_quote Originally Posted by samah12

Salaam Aleykom Brother

I have spent 18 hours today researching this on the net and can say with absolute honesty I am no further forward. I am prepared to open myself up to further ridicule and explain my dilemma (not referring to yourself whose discussion I have found very constructive).

Your comments made me truly stand back and question my view, which is always a good thing. I have found so many sites discussing this issue and have tried to read through many of them with an unbiased view. Unfortunately, when I read the argument for music being haraam it swayed me but then I read the argument that music praising Allah is not haraam and I found myself swayed by these arguments also and yet others that say any music not encouraging you to sin is not haraam, I am less swayed by this.

My conclusion is this: I simply do not have the knowledge to come to a correct conclusion on this issue. Insh'allah my husband and I will go to Mecca at Ramadan and I shall leave this question open in my mind until then. I hope you will not disagree that I am most likely to get the definitive answer from Mecca. Whatever answer I get in Mecca I shall of course accept and also post on this site.

Thank you brother for opening my mind to this question.

Jazakillah Khayr for approaching the issue with an open mind, very few people do that.

Insha'Allaah sister, ask there in Makkah, you'll find alot of great scholars there and follow whatever reply you get, thats the safest option Insha'Allaah. The Scholars there are qualified, and as mentioned above, they have Ijazas.