Religion is number one instigator of violence?

[Nerd]

Its apparent that in the modern day and age, religion is more detrimental than beneficial as it is (arguably) the number 1 instigator of violence, cruelty and division among mankind.

Take for an example conflicts in the Iraq and Afghanistan, if you remember correctly, their invasions were provoked by the unfortunate events of 9/11 which were probably caused by the Palestinian conflict fueled by the Americans’ preferential treatment of Israel, which by the way, can probably be attributed by the Palestinians’ uncompromising stance of sharing their land with the Zionists and so on and so forth. My point is that this blame game can probably extend to biblical times when God duped the Israelites from their “promised land” so in essence, doing this is really futile.

It's high time that we all learned to respect, understand and tolerate each other; as those are the keys to the viability of a world full of imperfect beings who are inherently different, both in appearance and thought and its the only way we can regress back to the relative serenity of our prehistoric past.

[------]

:salamext:

Islam= PEACE

Nothing to do with violence

[IbnAbdulHakim]

*sighs*

as if there wouldnt be violence without religion.

and i really doubt there would be any less.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
I don't think religion is the number one instigator of violence. Not every case of violence is due to religious reasons; some cases there are but to say every case is directly caused by religion, that is wrong on all accounts (WW1 and 2, Vietnam War - the instigator was not religion...)

However, there have been cases where religion has been an insitigator (such as the crusade era and the whole bangladesh-india-pakistan fiasco[though that was also a land-thing too] in addition to general animosity with hindus and muslims).

If you look at the core teachings of the mainstream religions (christianity, Islam, Judaism, Sikhism etc) they all represent some sort of peace and or justice - think about it, do you really know any religion that at its core lies violence (i.e to be a follower of that religion you have to be violent?) So to then say that religion is the number one instigator of violence I would disagree completely. Though as I stated before, there are cases where people use [*******ized] teachings of their religion to commit crimes - but that's not the religions fault, rather the follower's.

Religion as a whole, I don't think is the instigator - I believe it is people who cannot see eye to eye or learn to live in peace (i.e the exact opposite teachings of the major religions) are the real instigators of violence.

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[glo]

*sighs*

as if there wouldnt be violence without religion.

and i really doubt there would be any less.

I have similar doubts.

It seems to me that most wars are essentially about gaining control over resources (oil, water etc) and land.
Religion comes into it as a means of separating which two (or more) groups fight over the same resources, and which group each individual considers him/herself part of.
If we take religion out of the equasion, we would still find ways of grouping ourselves into 'them' and 'us'. I'm afraid that is human behaviour.

[barney]

To be breif.

Resources and land we can reason and negotiate over.

You cant reason or negotiate when a uncontactable yet all powerful deity once told your ancestors that you were the best people or that you had been given superiority over all others.

[glo]

To be breif.

Resources and land we can reason and negotiate over.

You cant reason or negotiate when a uncontactable yet all powerful deity once told your ancestors that you were the best people or that you had been given superiority over all others.

I take your point, barney.

But how often in human history have resources and land been negotiated over?
Do you believe, if we stamped out religious beliefs, peace would descend on the planet?

[------]

:salamext:

1) u spelt brief wrong
2) explain the second part in english. dont talk in riddles

[glo]

Not wishing to take this thread off topic ... can people see disadvantages which could occur, if religion was eradicated from the human mind?
(I am thinking about disadvantages in human behaviour etc - rather than thinking about the afterlife)

[aamirsaab]

Not wishing to take this thread off topic ... can people see disadvantages which could occur, if religion was eradicated from the human mind?
(I am thinking about disadvantages in human behaviour etc - rather than thinking about the afterlife)

Oh abosolutely! I gew up in a predominantly non-muslim and non-religious area. Believe you me, manners and general people skills (i.e mixing with everyone - no matter creed or colour etc) was a rarety amongst the non-muslims at my primary AND secondary - I assure you this was due to them having no religion and am so very very glad I was raised the way I was.

[barney]

Well you need social conformity still.
You would have to make sure that you taught for a similar amount of time, MODERN DAY, values.
Kindness, co-operation, being slow to anger, the value of life, the painful punishment of prisons, (where if you transgressed sorely societys rules you would abide in for ever).

It would be great.

I think a lot of peoples Superiority complexes would be transfered from religion into nationalism, but I am optimistic.

Humanity would benifit, socially, culturally, technologically, and ethically.

[Umar001]

I don't see how it could be.

You see, religion is used as a means of rounding up people, but I think it is hardly used as a means of starting a war, I have hardly read of a war in which those in charge sought to fight because they believed God had told them too.

Rather what I see happening is, people fighting to take land because they want the land and then stating that if you join this army you will be rewarded by God. See, the religious faith here only is a tool to achieve a goal, without the religious faith people would still have the goal, take land/women/money/oil etc but they would need a powerful tool to utilise armies, at an era when faith is becoming frowned upon we see people now fighting for 'freedom' and their 'rights' from threats of men with weapons of mass destruction.

And Allah knows best.

[Azy]

Oh abosolutely! I gew up in a predominantly non-muslim and non-religious area. Believe you me, manners and general people skills (i.e mixing with everyone - no matter creed or colour etc) was a rarety amongst the non-muslims at my primary AND secondary - I assure you this was due to them having no religion and am so very very glad I was raised the way I was.

I can't say I agree with you on this for a couple of reasons.
1) Where I live the number of people who call themselves muslims and have absolutely no manners is shocking.
2) Economics, environment and education are big factors. Do you think if you walk through brixton and talk to people of no religion there that it would be the same as talking to secular students at Eton?
I know of many people from different circumstances with different views, some decent people, some ar*eholes.

No religion is not the prime instigator of violence, but it's also not true to say there wouldn't be less violence without it. Look at the French wars between catholics and protestants, 3-4million people dead over which version of Christianity is right.

[barney]

God starting wars:

The Jews massacering Jericho, Ai, Gibbonites,amorites, makkadar,libnahr, lachist etc etc etc etc etc etc.
The Islamic conquest: Jihad from 630 through to 1400.( Jihad in those days diddnt really mean a inner personal struggle with your own feelings. It meant joining the flipping army and killing to fullfill the commandment.
The Crusades, seven of them. The Pope is speaking Gods words, he is divinely influenced. God says kill.
Every War that Japan fought. Their emperor was a God up untill 1945 when he suddenly realised he wasnt. The people were most surprised.
Every war of Ancient Eygpt. Pharoh says conquor? OK holder-up-of -the-sun, sure thing!

[Keltoi]

Sadly, violence is a human condition. Take away religion and we would just find something else to kill that other guy for. That being said, I do believe that faith and religion are two completely different things. Religion becomes an identity and an institution. Faith is a personal connection between an individual and God. Religion can and does instigate violence. However, stating that religion is the #1 instigator of violence is dubious, considering the number of people killed by Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot, just to point out three non-theist leaders.

[barney]

Communism was pretty much a religion mate. They just substituted Stalin or Mao for their "God".
Evrything else from the songs and the doctrines, even to symbology (Hammers and sickles, swastikas instead of Cross or Crescent) and Scripture.("Little red books" "Mein Kampf" instead of The Book of Mormon or Dianetics)

[ziz0u07]

Religion is not violent.
nevertheless all muslims have evil minds.
Trust me this is true, but that does not relate to islam in any way, Islam has simply diminished, does not exist, and whoever tell u it does, it is violent, the old islam never had conflicts my friend, was powerful, both do not exist, that is for u to admit.
Who gave the reason to battle us, Brother in Islam Osama. Who is killing and (ADMITTING) doing it on TV is it Brother Bush, Or sister Al-Janabi. Think reasonably, bush is good for his people we should respect that, we r his enemy he should kill us we should respect that too, and the best part is he can do it.
Stop fighting among yourself like children only then think to fight team3 buddies.

[Keltoi]

Communism was pretty much a religion mate. They just substituted Stalin or Mao for their "God".
Evrything else from the songs and the doctrines, even to symbology (Hammers and sickles, swastikas instead of Cross or Crescent) and Scripture.("Little red books" "Mein Kampf" instead of The Book of Mormon or Dianetics)

I actually agree with you, but using that logic one could say any act that motivates people to violence is "like" a religion. Whether it be for an ideology, nationalism, a cult of personality, etc.

[barney]

I think you can acheive a nice balance between patriotism and nationalism. I'd rather the world be as one,(cue violins and dancing children in feilds of flowers), but since that is quite clearly tellytubbyland, i'll settle with something less.

In some ways yep, your again right with that. Lets say a campaign against Foxhunting took place. You have the crowds of same minded, self-rightious thinking groups, chanting slogans, full of ethical arguement, gathered behind a agitator-prophet, quoting verses from the Daily Mail.
But perhaps thats diluting it a little too much :)

[Gator]

I wouldn't say religion is a cause of violence in most cases. I would say it is used as a justification of violence.

[aamirsaab]

I can't say I agree with you on this for a couple of reasons.
1) Where I live the number of people who call themselves muslims and have absolutely no manners is shocking.

Perhaps then it is a matter of sticking to religious teachings . I know of muslims who adhere to Islam very well and they're awesome people as a result. I also know of muslims who don't adhere to Islam nearly as much as I do (and I admit it could be more but hey I'm working on it) and they're real jerks.

2) Economics, environment and education are big factors. Do you think if you walk through brixton and talk to people of no religion there that it would be the same as talking to secular students at Eton?

No doubt that economics and environment are big factors. I'm a psychologist - I know how important that stuff is lol!

I know of many people from different circumstances with different views, some decent people, some ar*eholes.

I agree fully on that. However, were it not for some religions we would not have certain things which we take for granted :)

No religion is not the prime instigator of violence, but it's also not true to say there wouldn't be less violence without it. Look at the French wars between catholics and protestants, 3-4million people dead over which version of Christianity is right.

I think with or without religion, there will always be violence. If any of you have cousins or younger sibling, you'll know that if you give one of them a green smarty and the other a yellow one, you can bet your ass that there's going to be a fight within 4 seconds of you turning around. Note: I know this from experience - I have more than 8 cousins....eid is not always a pretty site when it comes to pressies!

[Azy]

Perhaps then it is a matter of sticking to religious teachings .

This is exactly the point.
Most religions profess peace, but is the world peaceful because of it?

No, because people will go to mosque/church/temple, and do all the necessaries as per their religion, but their actions and thoughts are not always those of a pure muslim/christian/etc.
Being of a particular religion gives them another mechanism to group together a large number of people for a cause under the guise of doing good in the name of the almighty.
How many muslims do you know that have never done anything wrong?

If any of you have cousins or younger sibling, you'll know that if you give one of them a green smarty and the other a yellow one, you can bet your ass that there's going to be a fight within 4 seconds of you turning around.

As I think barney said, people who commit atrocities in the name of their religion do so with the opinion that their actions are sanctioned by god himself. They cannot be swayed an inch from their beliefs, as you can see from any thread on this forum.

A child can be reasoned with and you can always give them more sweets to even things out, but can you imagine India saying "hey pakistan, why don't you all just become hindus and then we can be friends, islam isn't the true religion anyway"

[aamirsaab]

This is exactly the point.
Most religions profess peace, but is the world peaceful because of it?

No, because people will go to mosque/church/temple, and do all the necessaries as per their religion, but their actions and thoughts are not always those of a pure muslim/christian/etc.

Most countries profess peace too...so it's clearly a human flaw

Being of a particular religion gives them another mechanism to group together a large number of people for a cause under the guise of doing good in the name of the almighty.

The same could be said for any grouping; goths, nerds, jocks, geeks etc. Though they prefer the term conformity as opposed to carrying out God's will etc.

How many muslims do you know that have never done anything wrong?

None but I don't know of any that has commited/is planning to commit murder.

As I think barney said, people who commit atrocities in the name of their religion do so with the opinion that their actions are sanctioned by god himself. They cannot be swayed an inch from their beliefs, as you can see from any thread on this forum.

Yeah I understand that, but it is the fault of the follower --- not the religion. Again, human error.

A child can be reasoned with and you can always give them more sweets to even things out, but can you imagine India saying "hey pakistan, why don't you all just become hindus and then we can be friends, islam isn't the true religion anyway"

Indeed children can be reasoned with. It's when you get older you start turning into more of a jerk. With pakistan and india, even if there was no religion or they both had the same one, they'd still be fighting (due to ethinc and culture reasons mostly) - it's human nature to fight for your belief (whether that is a religion, culture or whatever you think is the right way to live your life.)

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Nerd;

Its apparent that in the modern day and age, religion is more detrimental than beneficial as it is (arguably) the number 1 instigator of violence, cruelty and division among mankind.

It’s a bit like saying guns and bombs are the number one cause of violence and cruelty, but that would be wrong. It is man that is the number one cause of violence, if we did not have bombe to kill each other with, we would find something else.

In the spirit of praying for peace on Earth

Eric

[Azy]

None but I don't know of any that has commited/is planning to commit murder.

Not the point. Islam is there to tell you how to do everything right. If you just pick and choose which bits you feel like doing, what's the point? You might as well pick a simple set of humanistic principles and work around them.

Yeah I understand that, but it is the fault of the follower --- not the religion. Again, human error.

It is partly to do with the follower, but religion enables him to act this way unlike any other reason as this is the only case in which the person is under the impression he is absolutely correct and that he has god on his side. Such a person does not consider the possibility of being wrong and thus is dangerous in his inflexibility.
Without religion he would be better able to take the middle ground and reach a compromise.

[AvarAllahNoor]

Some Religious texts are misconstrued, hence the Religious conflicts taking place. These nuts that do it, are doing so for thier own benefits.

[barney]

1)Religious texts of all the major religions specify people that are enemies of God.
2)They prescribe to the reader what God wants done with these people.
3) They relate Tales of what happened to quasi-historical figures who disobayed.
4) They promote the dietys chosen people as superior. The others are dogs, losers, and due a punishment.

If your Dad came up to you and said "Hey son or daughter, The Geordies are worthless trash, theyre my enemy, your far better than them, there will be a time when even Trees will start pointing out where they are and asking you to kill them, the loser-worthless, apes and donkeys, with their crappy football team and their whiney accents"
You wuld tell your dad to stop talking nonsense.
You cant tell God that.

What does all this scripture say to the reader?
It dosnt tell them to bake the enemies of God a cake.

[AvarAllahNoor]

1)Religious texts of all the major religions specify people that are enemies of God.
2)They prescribe to the reader what God wants done with these people.
3) They relate Tales of what happened to quasi-historical figures who disobayed.
4) They promote the dietys chosen people as superior. The others are dogs, losers, and due a punishment.

If your Dad came up to you and said "Hey son or daughter, The Geordies are worthless trash, theyre my enemy, your far better than them, there will be a time when even Trees will start pointing out where they are and asking you to kill them, the loser-worthless, apes and donkeys, with their crappy football team and their whiney accents"
You wuld tell your dad to stop talking nonsense.
You cant tell God that.

What does all this scripture say to the reader?
It dosnt tell them to bake the enemies of God a cake.

Sikhism doesn't. It's scriptures have no stories or fables, just Praise of God! Sikhism has not one single word of hatred in Shri Guru Granth Sahib, see for yourself.

[barney]

Sikhism doesn't. It's scriptures have no stories or fables, just Praise of God! Sikhism has not one single word of hatred in Shri Guru Granth Sahib, see for yourself.

Cheers. Ill have a look. I must admit , i havnt read your scriptures yet, I was still working through Dianetics at the moment, but that is really really freaking Dull. I could do with a change.

By the way. Dont all of you guys carry really big knives? :)

[AvarAllahNoor]

Cheers. Ill have a look. I must admit , i havnt read your scriptures yet, I was still working through Dianetics at the moment, but that is really really freaking Dull. I could do with a change.

By the way. Dont all of you guys carry really big knives? :)

Not all, just those that are baptised, that in no way implies Sikhism is violent. You'll need to study a religion before making such statements Mr Barney naughty man you! :D

[barney]

Aye! I know...I'll dive into the books soon. :)

Just made me smile that the religion with no enemies or violence was the only one carrying swords around 24/7. :D

[AvarAllahNoor]

Aye! I know...I'll dive into the books soon. :)

Just made me smile that the religion with no enemies or violence was the only one carrying swords around 24/7. :D

Yup, shows one can have a Kirpan, and not use it for violence. Also, you find me one case where a Sikh has used it to attack another, and I'll eat my turban live on cam!:thumbs_up

[barney]

Experience in Canada indicates the kirpan is dangerous. Justice Campbell in Ontario Human Rights Commission and Harbhajan Singh Pandori v. Peel Board of Education:

http://australianatheist.blogspot.co...ation-and.html

There have been, in the Metropolitan Toronto area, three reported incidents of violent kirpan use. One involved a plea of guilty to attempted murder after a stabbing with a kirpan. In one street fight, a man was stabbed in the back with a kirpan. In one case, a kirpan was drawn for defensive purposes.


Im ever so sorry matey. You dont have to eat it all, just a quick nibble will suffice!
send us the You-Tube link when its up :)

[AvarAllahNoor]

Experience in Canada indicates the kirpan is dangerous. Justice Campbell in Ontario Human Rights Commission and Harbhajan Singh Pandori v. Peel Board of Education:

http://australianatheist.blogspot.co...ation-and.html

There have been, in the Metropolitan Toronto area, three reported incidents of violent kirpan use. One involved a plea of guilty to attempted murder after a stabbing with a kirpan. In one street fight, a man was stabbed in the back with a kirpan. In one case, a kirpan was drawn for defensive purposes.


Im ever so sorry matey. You dont have to eat it all, just a quick nibble will suffice!
send us the You-Tube link when its up :)

Where does it state the person involved was a Sikh? or for that matter a BAPTISED Sikh? that's is what I proposed. Any nut could have used it. :D

Please re-search - Until then, I'll be nibbling on cheese biscuits

[barney]

http://www.indianexpress.com/res/web.../ige21112.html

But rather than post the multitude of incidents, Sikhs have used Kirpans in Battles for centuries. If it's never been used for violence then how come theres so many millons of dead with kirpan shaped holes in them.

I'm not denying that its a symbol and its a sign of resisting oppression, but sometimes as we can see from so many examples in this thread, resisting oppression is simply another word for blatant expansionism and violence.

One thing about it that puzzles me a little. Shouldnt it be a .40 caliber automatic these days? Swords are a bit 18th century.

[AvarAllahNoor]

http://www.indianexpress.com/res/web.../ige21112.html

But rather than post the multitude of incidents, Sikhs have used Kirpans in Battles for centuries. If it's never been used for violence then how come theres so many millons of dead with kirpan shaped holes in them.

I'm not denying that its a symbol and its a sign of resisting oppression, but sometimes as we can see from so many examples in this thread, resisting oppression is simply another word for blatant expansionism and violence.

One thing about it that puzzles me a little. Shouldnt it be a .40 caliber automatic these days? Swords are a bit 18th century.

That link is for a fraud case?

Sikhs have not expanded using the sword. Defence yes, just as a soldier would use his/her weapon. Khalsa (that's the name) is a Saint Soldier, his/her job is to protect ALL, regardless of sex, colour, religion or sexuality.

Like I say, you'll need to educate yourself on Sikhism, before nit-picking. A better understanding of it will come naturally.

As for the caliber automatic, well as Sikhs are a martial race in india they carry guns freely AK47. The Kirpan is relevent today as it was back in the 17th century, Gurus also instructed they should be armed and ready for any conflict. Hence the need for it. Skihs had their own Empire, but if you read, you'll find they killed nobody to obtain it, or loot, plunder or rape. Something other religons can not really state they didin't do.

But, don't take my word for it, you're a dab hand at looking up links,:D look up our history, and then we can discuss any things you don't see fit. :)

[barney]

Heya.
Sorry, i should have quoted it,The Murder is a bit further down the page.

Aye, I'll check up on the history and stuff and we can have a proper natter then :)

Regards.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all,

If we are striving to be truthful to God and our religion, then we should always strive to do what is greatest.

In Christianity Jesus said the greatest commandments of God; are to love God and to love our neighbours as we love ourselves. He gave us the parable of the Good Samaritan to describe how the greatest commandments work. It tells how people who could be seen as enemies should help and love their enemies in desperate situations.

How was George Bush striving to follow in the footsteps of the greatest commandments when he said, God bless America, God is on our side, and then he bombed Iraq.

In the spirit of praying for peace on Earth

Eric

[Uthman]

If we are striving to be truthful to God and our religion, then we should always strive to do what is greatest.

In Christianity Jesus said the greatest commandments of God; are to love God and to love our neighbours as we love ourselves. He gave us the parable of the Good Samaritan to describe how the greatest commandments work. It tells how people who could be seen as enemies should help and love their enemies in desperate situations.

Very true, Uncle Eric! People often overlook how the scriptures teach us to treat even our so-called worst enemies with kindness.

[Uthman]

Greetings to all,

Having read some of the replies, I would like to make a few points:

1. People who lack in depth Islamic knowledge should not attempt to interpret verses of the Qur'an.

2. A good understanding of Arabic is essential for fully understanding the Qur'an. The fact that translations differ in so many ways is proof of this. Non-Muslims often argue that this point is just an excuse used by Muslims to escape the argument, but it most certainly is not!

3. All Muslims don't necessarily have to learn Arabic. They should look to what the majority of knowledgeable scholars say about any given issue with the evidence and follow that - Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said that the Ummah will never unite upon falsehood.

4. In modern times, I would argue that events such as 9/11 are done chiefly for political reasons, with religion used as justification. People who do attempt to use religion as justification are probably delusional - their minds clouded by what they perceive to be injustices done against them, and are at odds with the views of the majority of Muslim scholars anyway. Remember that suicide is explicitly declared haraam in the Qur'an, yet many terrorists are suicide bombers. This shows that they are not good Muslims. Also, harming women and children is explicitly made haraam, yet many terrorists do. This also shows that they are not good Muslims.

5. I have yet to see a verse of the Qur'an or an authentic hadith which condones unjust violence. Indeed, there are many examples of showing how Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) treated his enemies with such kindness, that they even became embarassed at how kind he was treating them.

Read this account:

“I was with one of the Ansari families, after being taken as captive. Whenever they had lunch or dinner, they used to give me preference by providing me with bread while they’d eat only dates, in compliance with the Prophet’s order to treat prisoners well.”

His name was Huzayr ibn Humayr. He has previously been a prisoner of war from the battle of Badr when he was battling against the Muslims. He later converted to Islam.

That, ladies and gents, is how Muslims are supposed to treat their worst enemies.

Now, in what way does the Qur'an or Sunnah encourage unjust violence?

[aamirsaab]

Not the point. Islam is there to tell you how to do everything right. If you just pick and choose which bits you feel like doing, what's the point? You might as well pick a simple set of humanistic principles and work around them.

Hahaha, the only time violence is ever allowed in Islam is in a war - and even that is after all other options are exhausted (negotiations etc). Most of the time, to practice Islam is simply to be a nice human being.

It is partly to do with the follower, but religion enables him to act this way unlike any other reason as this is the only case in which the person is under the impression he is absolutely correct and that he has god on his side. Such a person does not consider the possibility of being wrong and thus is dangerous in his inflexibility.

It's the exact same with any ideology or way of life. At the core lies belief from a human being, who has zoomed in way too much. Again human error. Yeah religion/ideology/way of life may very well be the petrol, but the follower is the car AND the driver in those cases.

Without religion he would be better able to take the middle ground and reach a compromise.

1) Without religion people would fight first and compromise later (it would be survival of the fittest since religion tells you to control your emotions and find compromises FIRST)
2) Islam I know for a fact takes the middle ground on a large majority of the occasions.... :beard:

I would also like to draw your attention to Osman's post, just above this one and also Eric H's.

[Nerd]

The collective Muslim psyche is too temperamental as it keenly takes offense in anything that contradicts, negates or criticizes its faith. They need to understand that critical analysis and commentary should not be deterred and perhaps also learn to tolerate (if not appreciate) satire instead of maniacally focusing their pent up rage on sabotaging foreign property and harming foreign individuals. A disagreement can easily easily be resolved by fighting back, but only verbally.

[Uthman]

It is possible to criticise a religion, whilst staying respectful. Cartoons depicting Prophet Muhammad with a bomb in his turban are hardly that.

But I agree that anger should be controlled and/or channelled in peaceful and more effective ways to tackle the problem. It is ironic that some Muslims actually fail to emulate the example of the person that they try to defend. We should pray that Allah guides these people. Their anger may be justified, but their actions are not.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you barney;

If your Dad came up to you and said "Hey son or daughter, The Geordies are worthless trash, theyre my enemy, your far better than them, there will be a time when even Trees will start pointing out where they are and asking you to kill them, the loser-worthless, apes and donkeys, with their crappy football team and their whiney accents"
You wuld tell your dad to stop talking nonsense.
You cant tell God that.

Likewise if the Quran said go fly a plane into a building you would say what a stupid religious book. But I think you will find there is no reference to flying planes into buildings in any religious text.

It leaves me thinking it is man and not religion to blame.

In the spirit of praying for peace on Earth

Eric

[snakelegs]

since i am not overly fond of religion, i always belived also the subject line of this thread. now i have come to see that it is not religion, but something within our psyche that makes us violent toward others. religion can be (as indeed it has been) used as an excuse, and people in power can also use it to manipulate the people.
if religion disappeared overnight, would all the violence all over the world immediately end? of course not - there is no shortage of divisions, and new ones can always be created by politicians.
on the other hand, religion has been a major source of comfort to untold billions throughout the ages, given them hope when all seemed hopeless, a light in times of utter despair, etc etc.
if violence were not in the human heart, no religious doctrine could create it.

[Fishman]

:sl:
I can't believe people are asking this question. How can you keep blaming religion for all of the world's problems? Especially when everybody knows that I am the number one instigator of violence! Prepare to be pwned, n00bz!!!!!111oneoneone!!!11!11!!!1!!

J/K (if it wasn't obvious already)

Seriously, I agree with Snakelegs on the fact that if you take away religion people will think of something else to fight over instead. Like race, or nationality or the Christmas sales. Religion may cause a lot of violence in the world today, but getting rid of it won't really solve anything.
:w:

[barney]

since i am not overly fond of religion, i always belived also the subject line of this thread. now i have come to see that it is not religion, but something within our psyche that makes us violent toward others. religion can be (as indeed it has been) used as an excuse, and people in power can also use it to manipulate the people.
if religion disappeared overnight, would all the violence all over the world immediately end? of course not - there is no shortage of divisions, and new ones can always be created by politicians.
on the other hand, religion has been a major source of comfort to untold billions throughout the ages, given them hope when all seemed hopeless, a light in times of utter despair, etc etc.
if violence were not in the human heart, no religious doctrine could create it.

I'm in agreement with some of that Snakes, but where political divisions can be healed, territorial disputes negotiated and madmen assassinated; Religion cannot be negotiated or healed. We know this from these very forums.
:(

Oh and Fishman; IR TEH PWNZERATER and I Pwn J00! U R a N00blocopter and haf noes skillz!!!2!2!1!!

[Yanal]

:salamext:

Islam= PEACE

Nothing to do with violence

Asalam alaykum
Not all think that sister. People who are british or some other religon pay the terroists to call themselves muslims and to do something bad to blame muslims. Jeez people are so gullable in the world affairs. :)

[Azy]

Asalam alaykum
Not all think that sister. People who are british or some other religon pay the terroists to call themselves muslims and to do something bad to blame muslims. Jeez people are so gullable in the world affairs. :)

Yeah that makes complete sense.

British: Right, basically I want you to blow yourself up while shouting something about Allah so that everyone will think you're a muslim
Terrorist: ok, what's in it for me.
British: £50,000 enough?
Terrorist: Yeah, great!
British: Ok, get going.
Terrorist: But wait I'm not a real muslim so I don't believe in paradise, what happens when I've killed myself...
British: Don't worry about that you'll have plenty of money to spend
Terrorist: But how am I going to spend...
British: Stop asking questions and go blow something up.
Terrorist: Umm, ok then

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

I dont think religion is the number one instigator. People use religion as bait when they want to accomplish what's on their agenda, so to speak. Plain and simple really. Well majority of the conflicts.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all,

After reading the Bible I truthfully do not know how Christians could go out and torture others during the inquisitions. I cannot understand the logic or how they came to these beliefs.


For me Christianity is all about helping others, but have I got it all wrong? Should I be out torturing, killing and bombing?

In the spirit of searching for truth

Eric

[kirk]

where we have groups of people who identify with each other, such as footbal team supporters or tribes, the groups will ultimately come into conflict.

In the 21st century communications has made the world smaller. There are no fewer groups.

But the main groups are split along religios lines. And therefore and conflict will be religious based

m

[snakelegs]

phooey. if religion is gone, there is always nationalism, racism, culturism, tribalism and many more isms can be hatched any time politically expedient.
do you really believe that if religion ceased to exist tomorrow, there would be peace and harmony?
the problem is in the human psyche - greed, power and violence.

[snakelegs]

I'm in agreement with some of that Snakes, but where political divisions can be healed, territorial disputes negotiated and madmen assassinated; Religion cannot be negotiated or healed. We know this from these very forums.
:(

Oh and Fishman; IR TEH PWNZERATER and I Pwn J00! U R a N00blocopter and haf noes skillz!!!2!2!1!!

can racism be healed or negotiated? can ideologues?
think hitler, stalin.

[Nerd]

Reminds of Imagine by John lennon

Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

What can religion do to curb all the violence in this world??? if it isnt the main reason why we have all the blood shed in the world?

[glo]

where we have groups of people who identify with each other, such as footbal team supporters or tribes, the groups will ultimately come into conflict.

I believe it is part of human nature, with humans being a social creatures, living in social groups. The group one belongs to and identifies with, is important to human survival.

[i_m_tipu]

where we have groups of people who identify with each other, such as footbal team supporters or tribes, the groups will ultimately come into conflict.

In the 21st century communications has made the world smaller. There are no fewer groups.

But the main groups are split along religios lines. And therefore and conflict will be religious based

m

Cultural devidetion is essential. But devidetion in Morality can't be supported.
A human always try to prove that he is uncommon than others.
And People divided into groups for to impress others also always he want to proves his side is better. And the leader/shadow leader of respective groups uses this people.
Human never usually fully understand is he blind or not.

When the defination of morality come from various source confict must be araise. And if it come from human than never all the people obey/ respect it (Bcoz many ppl many mind).

So how come u establish peace?? This is a very important question think abt it.

[barney]

Yeah that makes complete sense.

British: Right, basically I want you to blow yourself up while shouting something about Allah so that everyone will think you're a muslim
Terrorist: ok, what's in it for me.
British: £50,000 enough?
Terrorist: Yeah, great!
British: Ok, get going.
Terrorist: But wait I'm not a real muslim so I don't believe in paradise, what happens when I've killed myself...
British: Don't worry about that you'll have plenty of money to spend
Terrorist: But how am I going to spend...
British: Stop asking questions and go blow something up.
Terrorist: Umm, ok then

But it is Fifty Thousand Punds. Think of the funeral you could have with that! A solid diamond coffin on a bed of caviar.

[barney]

Greetings and peace be with you all,

After reading the Bible I truthfully do not know how Christians could go out and torture others during the inquisitions. I cannot understand the logic or how they came to these beliefs.


For me Christianity is all about helping others, but have I got it all wrong? Should I be out torturing, killing and bombing?

In the spirit of searching for truth

Eric

If your following the scriptures mate , yeah.
Head down this sunday with a car boot full of rocks and pelt the staff of Blockbusters to death for violating the sabbath.:D

[Keltoi]

If your following the scriptures mate , yeah.
Head down this sunday with a car boot full of rocks and pelt the staff of Blockbusters to death for violating the sabbath.:D

Actually, for a Christian, the example we follow is that of Christ, whose only interaction with a stoning was to stop it from taking place. Making the well known statement of "Let those without sin throw the first stone."

Just FYI :D

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you barney,

If your following the scriptures mate , yeah.
Head down this sunday with a car boot full of rocks and pelt the staff of Blockbusters to death for violating the Sabbath

People choose to follow what is in their own heart, and if they want to stone someone they will do it despite the teachings of Jesus.

You might consider that you have not been looking for the good that Jesus taught

In the spirit of searching for a peace that surpasses all understanding

Eric

[barney]

Greetings and peace be with you barney,
People choose to follow what is in their own heart, and if they want to stone someone they will do it despite the teachings of Jesus.

You might consider that you have not been looking for the good that Jesus taught

In the spirit of searching for a peace that surpasses all understanding

Eric

I think the message of jesus, or at least the ones that have made it into the Bible are generally fine, teach peace , mostly and I personally think that Jesus was a very fine individual as prophets go.

Just to let ya know. ;)

[kirk]

The question was worded badly. The cause of violence in history is irrelevant to the cause of violence today. The question should be:
is religion the main instigator of violence in the year 2008?

I say yes.

If there were no religion there would be

- no Israel,

- no fighting in Afghanistan

- after Iraq was liberated from the dictator Saddam Hussein, the US would have withdrawn and the Iraqi and the people not be killing each other.

This would reduce most of the world’s violence, to a small amount,

K

[Abdul Fattah]

Hi
I'd like to present an argument ad absurdum:

Science has always been the number one cause for violence. The first time cavemans worked with iron was to make knives and arrowheads. The first chariots were used in battle. The first use of gunpowder was guns (hence the name). The first invention to follow E=mc2 was the atom bomb. The microwave was accidentally discovered while testing for radar systems in the army. The list is endless.

The argument is of course as it's name suggests absurd. The scientific progress didn't cause violence. Violence is a part of human nature and some humans simply "abused" science because it is so powerful!

Getting back to religion, the question that should really bother you is not:
"Why are religions that preach tolerance and peace abused so much for violence?".
No the real question here is:
"Why are religions, and Islam in specific so powerful that people want to keep exploiting them?"

[Keltoi]

The question was worded badly. The cause of violence in history is irrelevant to the cause of violence today. The question should be:
is religion the main instigator of violence in the year 2008?

I say yes.

If there were no religion there would be

- no Israel,

- no fighting in Afghanistan

- after Iraq was liberated from the dictator Saddam Hussein, the US would have withdrawn and the Iraqi and the people not be killing each other.

This would reduce most of the world’s violence, to a small amount,

K

Why would the U.S. have withdrawn after deposing Saddam without religion? I don't see that religion played any part in it whatsoever.

Perhaps without religion there wouldn't have been an Al-Qaeda and therefore no War in Afghanistan, but I've come to the conclusion that Al-Qaeda( or some similar entity) would have existed anway. Al-Qaeda uses religion to gather followers and win support from isolated peoples, but its true aims are quite political in nature.

As for Israel...you might be correct, however this brings up another issue. The separation of religion and politics is a fairly recent turn of events. In the past, religion and politics have been intertwined to the point of being one behemoth institution. To say that religion alone has caused conflicts is normally untrue, since past conflicts have usually come about as a result of politics, religion, nationality, ethnicity, etc. It is hard to isolate religion and lay the blame on its doorstep.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Kirk;

If religion was the main reason to invade Iraq; then American and British Christians should be out there converting Iraq to Christianity.

If we really wanted to convert Iraq to Christianity then yes, it would be a war centred on religion.

In the spirit of praying for peace on Earth

Eric

[Fishman]

:sl:
The number one cause of violence is people talking bad about Chuck Norris, and the number one conclusion to violence is when Chuck Norris roundhouse kicks them to the other side of the galaxy...
:w:

[ranma1/2]

*sighs*

as if there wouldnt be violence without religion.

and i really doubt there would be any less.

i agree. However, i do think that often religion is used as a source of justifcation or influence as well as often encouraging ignorance that leads to easier to manipulate people.

[ranma1/2]

Perhaps it woudl be more accurate to say that Organized religion often can lead a hand in violence. (as wellas preventing it)

[kirk]

Why would the U.S. have withdrawn after deposing Saddam without religion?

If there were no religion the Sunni and Shia would not be killing each other and the US would go home.

“But”…I hear you say, “..it’s a political and not religious conflict.”

If there were no religion there would be no Sunni or Shia and the 2 would not be in political conflict.

“But”…I hear you say, “..there would still be political conflict.”

To which I answer: Yes there would! If there were no religion I can see the sewing community taking up arms to gain political power. The chess community should watch out less their meeting places be fired upon or blown up.

I don’t need a forum – I can have a whole conversation on my own :D

K

[kirk]

If religion was the main reason to invade Iraq;

It wasn’t and I never said that it was. Please read carefully.

K

[kirk]

The number one cause of violence is people talking bad about Chuck Norris, and the number one conclusion to violence is when Chuck Norris roundhouse kicks them to the other side of the galaxy...

With humor you can join in my one sided conversation :D

K

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Kirk;

Originally Posted by Eric H

The number one cause of violence is people talking bad about Chuck Norris, and the number one conclusion to violence is when Chuck Norris roundhouse kicks them to the other side of the galaxy...

With humor you can join in my one sided conversation

K

Sadly I cannot take any credit for the Chuck Norris comments; that was down to our friend Fishman. However my aged granny could whoop Chuck Norris good and proper with one arm tied behind her back; she was an accomplished atheist.

Take care and peace be with you.

Eric

[Keltoi]

If there were no religion the Sunni and Shia would not be killing each other and the US would go home.

“But”…I hear you say, “..it’s a political and not religious conflict.”

If there were no religion there would be no Sunni or Shia and the 2 would not be in political conflict.

“But”…I hear you say, “..there would still be political conflict.”

To which I answer: Yes there would! If there were no religion I can see the sewing community taking up arms to gain political power. The chess community should watch out less their meeting places be fired upon or blown up.

I don’t need a forum – I can have a whole conversation on my own :D

K

Oh I get where you are coming from now. I actually agree, without religion there wouldn't be Sunni and Shia killing each other. However, I don't think you can separate political and religious causes for violence in most instances. Especially historically. In the modern age, I think one could make the accusation that religion is a cause for violence, but unfortunately, this accusation will rest upon Muslims to a great degree. Of course there are other groups committing violence in the name of God, or if not God, political or social grievances.

[barney]

Lets look at it on a flipside for a sec.
Does Religion bring peace?
How far up is religions peace bringing properties. Does it prevent violence much.

I could spend the next hour at my keyboards but ill just throw some stuff down.
1)Christian missionarys: Approaching the freshly butchered and cowed natives to teach them that killing a brother for stealing a cow is sinful.
2)War of the Roses
3)Kosovo 1999. Christians killing Christians to save muslims
4) Witchburning from 1300AD to 2008 AD in christian churches in Africa. "Souless Children" alongside Christian NGO's saving them.

[Amadeus85]

People would kill and murder without religion as well, they would just use different ideologies. Pol Pot, Mao Tse Tung and Stalin didnt need religion to kill dozens millions of people. Neither of religion does support violence. If I had a child in future I would prefer that orthodox jew, muslim or sikh could take care of him/her while Im busy for example. Because I would be sure that it would be safe then. On the other hand I wouldn't give my child to maoist,communist,pagan or neo-nazi, because their moral fundaments are twisted and dangerous.

[barney]

People would kill and murder without religion as well, they would just use different ideologies. Pol Pot, Mao Tse Tung and Stalin didnt need religion to kill dozens millions of people. Neither of religion does support violence. If I had a child in future I would prefer that orthodox jew, muslim or sikh could take care of him/her while Im busy for example. Because I would be sure that it would be safe then. On the other hand I wouldn't give my child to maoist,communist,pagan or neo-nazi, because their moral fundaments are twisted and dangerous.

All those examples you mentioned were deities of their religion mate.
They had scripture (red Books) Dogma, prophets, shrines, superiority of their system over all others,hymes .....the full works.
Communism and socialism as practiced by them was a religion.

[Amadeus85]

All those examples you mentioned were deities of their religion mate.
They had scripture (red Books) Dogma, prophets, shrines, superiority of their system over all others,hymes .....the full works.
Communism and socialism as practiced by them was a religion.

It is completely post modernistic thinking. Unlike you, I see the difference between religion and ideologies. In your type of thinking even collecting stamps can be a religion or being a football fan. :)

[truemuslim]

BLAME IT ON THE ATHIESTS!!

jk

lol
islam is peace
but some ppl take it the stupid-cough i mean wrong way
they think islam is going to a random place loaded under ur coat and blowing urself and innnocent ppl up. like seriously if u wanna kill ppl use a gun, that wway U dont die too! stuuuupid

if there was no religion all ppl would be eating each other and being dumbasses
as u can see... in islam u cannot murder or non of that
thats christianity
islam is all peace
ppl make things up and make it not peace, but those ppl are the stupid ppl so stop being stupid, ppl!
am guessing this thread was started by an ... cough cough athiest cough cough


o i hav a bad cough today
:)
:w:

[barney]

The problem is with Humans.

If i was to create a religion based on Hasbro's My Little Ponys, a lovable genre for small girls based on freindship , love, sharing, hugs , hearts , glitter, cakes, parties, birthdays, fairgrounds and tenderness. All would be well till adult humans got hold of it.

Within fifty years, the Followers of the Sweetberry Sect would be slaughtering the Pinkie-Pieists with MAC10's over what Sweetberry meant by "Your my best freinds ever, Rainbowdash and Pinkie Pie"

Clearly this shows that Rainbowdash is superior in Sweetberrys eyes to pinkie-pie, and the Pinkie-pieists eat Shortcake when this is NOT mentioned in either the scripts or the Books. Which is the most sacred ground? Celebration Castle or Cotton Candys Cafe?

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^:S I dont even know all that, how do you :O

Not believing in anything is still a belief itself. Everyone has a god or religion in one way or another. People would do anything for money as would people for God. You might not worship God but you could worship your desires, do anything to satisfy it. There really is no difference.

[barney]

^^:S I dont even know all that, how do you :O

Not believing in anything is still a belief itself. Everyone has a god or religion in one way or another. People would do anything for money as would people for God. You might not worship God but you could worship your desires, do anything to satisfy it. There really is no difference.

Hmm, in some ways yeah, everyone has a God, but wealth isnt worshipped, popstars are not worshipped. Only Religion can create such emotions and fervor. (I Include Juche and communism etc as religions here).

There's some girls out there who have Britney Spears posters on their walls, want to dress like her, sing like her, have the hair, (or shave it off) like her, would like her money, her trailertrash boyfreind etc etc. But they dont "Worship" her.

They dont beleive that Britney can affect their life, that she created anything other than some utterly spewsome records, that she can intercede for them, that she can move a grain of sand with her will. They just see her as a cool pop star and in that they are deluded, because everyone knows that Muse are the kings of emo-rock. They are merely speaking falsehood from ignorance.

A religion has all of the above that Britney or a ferrari or anything worldly lacks.
If Britney commits suicide she is sort of a martyer, but her followers dont beleive she rises again, (actually some Elvis fans think that he has!), and they simply go on to listening to Christina Aguilara.


I'll take the point that everyone has a God though. I havnt met an atheist that can explain how the universe began. I'll take any explaination they throw up and say "OK, thats God". Not one.
I havnt seen a single theists arguement that cant be passed off as mass hysteria and social conditioning. Not one.

I will say this. It is human nature, (actually male nature), to kick the crud out of something.
It's my position that if the world submitted to Islam or Christianity or Judism then the day after, humans would be killing the Heretical infidel sunni's or shias or catholics or christodelphians or orthodox jews, when the world was down to one sect,(lets say the Strong City Travesser worshippers) then they would be killing over the lack of piety in the least pious member, and the final person on earth would hold Gods "true blessing".

With the abandonment of religion, there can be a chance to say "we are all the same, we are all equal, we can grow and respect each other, we can resolve our differences". Its all a pipe dream, but its a solid pipe dream compared to heaven or hell being fuelled with the souls of the "infidel".