Religion is number one instigator of violence?

[aamirsaab]

I can't say I agree with you on this for a couple of reasons.
1) Where I live the number of people who call themselves muslims and have absolutely no manners is shocking.

Perhaps then it is a matter of sticking to religious teachings . I know of muslims who adhere to Islam very well and they're awesome people as a result. I also know of muslims who don't adhere to Islam nearly as much as I do (and I admit it could be more but hey I'm working on it) and they're real jerks.

2) Economics, environment and education are big factors. Do you think if you walk through brixton and talk to people of no religion there that it would be the same as talking to secular students at Eton?

No doubt that economics and environment are big factors. I'm a psychologist - I know how important that stuff is lol!

I know of many people from different circumstances with different views, some decent people, some ar*eholes.

I agree fully on that. However, were it not for some religions we would not have certain things which we take for granted

No religion is not the prime instigator of violence, but it's also not true to say there wouldn't be less violence without it. Look at the French wars between catholics and protestants, 3-4million people dead over which version of Christianity is right.

I think with or without religion, there will always be violence. If any of you have cousins or younger sibling, you'll know that if you give one of them a green smarty and the other a yellow one, you can bet your ass that there's going to be a fight within 4 seconds of you turning around. Note: I know this from experience - I have more than 8 cousins....eid is not always a pretty site when it comes to pressies!

 

[Azy]

Perhaps then it is a matter of sticking to religious teachings .

This is exactly the point.
Most religions profess peace, but is the world peaceful because of it?

No, because people will go to mosque/church/temple, and do all the necessaries as per their religion, but their actions and thoughts are not always those of a pure muslim/christian/etc.
Being of a particular religion gives them another mechanism to group together a large number of people for a cause under the guise of doing good in the name of the almighty.
How many muslims do you know that have never done anything wrong?

If any of you have cousins or younger sibling, you'll know that if you give one of them a green smarty and the other a yellow one, you can bet your ass that there's going to be a fight within 4 seconds of you turning around.

As I think barney said, people who commit atrocities in the name of their religion do so with the opinion that their actions are sanctioned by god himself. They cannot be swayed an inch from their beliefs, as you can see from any thread on this forum.

A child can be reasoned with and you can always give them more sweets to even things out, but can you imagine India saying "hey pakistan, why don't you all just become hindus and then we can be friends, islam isn't the true religion anyway"

 

[aamirsaab]

This is exactly the point.
Most religions profess peace, but is the world peaceful because of it?

No, because people will go to mosque/church/temple, and do all the necessaries as per their religion, but their actions and thoughts are not always those of a pure muslim/christian/etc.

Most countries profess peace too...so it's clearly a human flaw

Being of a particular religion gives them another mechanism to group together a large number of people for a cause under the guise of doing good in the name of the almighty.

The same could be said for any grouping; goths, nerds, jocks, geeks etc. Though they prefer the term conformity as opposed to carrying out God's will etc.

How many muslims do you know that have never done anything wrong?

None but I don't know of any that has commited/is planning to commit murder.

As I think barney said, people who commit atrocities in the name of their religion do so with the opinion that their actions are sanctioned by god himself. They cannot be swayed an inch from their beliefs, as you can see from any thread on this forum.

Yeah I understand that, but it is the fault of the follower --- not the religion. Again, human error.

A child can be reasoned with and you can always give them more sweets to even things out, but can you imagine India saying "hey pakistan, why don't you all just become hindus and then we can be friends, islam isn't the true religion anyway"

Indeed children can be reasoned with. It's when you get older you start turning into more of a jerk. With pakistan and india, even if there was no religion or they both had the same one, they'd still be fighting (due to ethinc and culture reasons mostly) - it's human nature to fight for your belief (whether that is a religion, culture or whatever you think is the right way to live your life.)

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Nerd;

Its apparent that in the modern day and age, religion is more detrimental than beneficial as it is (arguably) the number 1 instigator of violence, cruelty and division among mankind.

It’s a bit like saying guns and bombs are the number one cause of violence and cruelty, but that would be wrong. It is man that is the number one cause of violence, if we did not have bombe to kill each other with, we would find something else.

In the spirit of praying for peace on Earth

Eric

 

[Azy]

None but I don't know of any that has commited/is planning to commit murder.

Not the point. Islam is there to tell you how to do everything right. If you just pick and choose which bits you feel like doing, what's the point? You might as well pick a simple set of humanistic principles and work around them.

Yeah I understand that, but it is the fault of the follower --- not the religion. Again, human error.

It is partly to do with the follower, but religion enables him to act this way unlike any other reason as this is the only case in which the person is under the impression he is absolutely correct and that he has god on his side. Such a person does not consider the possibility of being wrong and thus is dangerous in his inflexibility.
Without religion he would be better able to take the middle ground and reach a compromise.

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

Some Religious texts are misconstrued, hence the Religious conflicts taking place. These nuts that do it, are doing so for thier own benefits.

 

[barney]

1)Religious texts of all the major religions specify people that are enemies of God.
2)They prescribe to the reader what God wants done with these people.
3) They relate Tales of what happened to quasi-historical figures who disobayed.
4) They promote the dietys chosen people as superior. The others are dogs, losers, and due a punishment.

If your Dad came up to you and said "Hey son or daughter, The Geordies are worthless trash, theyre my enemy, your far better than them, there will be a time when even Trees will start pointing out where they are and asking you to kill them, the loser-worthless, apes and donkeys, with their crappy football team and their whiney accents"
You wuld tell your dad to stop talking nonsense.
You cant tell God that.

What does all this scripture say to the reader?
It dosnt tell them to bake the enemies of God a cake.

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

1)Religious texts of all the major religions specify people that are enemies of God.
2)They prescribe to the reader what God wants done with these people.
3) They relate Tales of what happened to quasi-historical figures who disobayed.
4) They promote the dietys chosen people as superior. The others are dogs, losers, and due a punishment.

If your Dad came up to you and said "Hey son or daughter, The Geordies are worthless trash, theyre my enemy, your far better than them, there will be a time when even Trees will start pointing out where they are and asking you to kill them, the loser-worthless, apes and donkeys, with their crappy football team and their whiney accents"
You wuld tell your dad to stop talking nonsense.
You cant tell God that.

What does all this scripture say to the reader?
It dosnt tell them to bake the enemies of God a cake.

Sikhism doesn't. It's scriptures have no stories or fables, just Praise of God! Sikhism has not one single word of hatred in Shri Guru Granth Sahib, see for yourself.

 

[barney]

Sikhism doesn't. It's scriptures have no stories or fables, just Praise of God! Sikhism has not one single word of hatred in Shri Guru Granth Sahib, see for yourself.

Cheers. Ill have a look. I must admit , i havnt read your scriptures yet, I was still working through Dianetics at the moment, but that is really really freaking Dull. I could do with a change.

By the way. Dont all of you guys carry really big knives?

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

Cheers. Ill have a look. I must admit , i havnt read your scriptures yet, I was still working through Dianetics at the moment, but that is really really freaking Dull. I could do with a change.

By the way. Dont all of you guys carry really big knives?

Not all, just those that are baptised, that in no way implies Sikhism is violent. You'll need to study a religion before making such statements Mr Barney naughty man you!

 

[barney]

Aye! I know...I'll dive into the books soon.

Just made me smile that the religion with no enemies or violence was the only one carrying swords around 24/7.

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

Aye! I know...I'll dive into the books soon.

Just made me smile that the religion with no enemies or violence was the only one carrying swords around 24/7.

Yup, shows one can have a Kirpan, and not use it for violence. Also, you find me one case where a Sikh has used it to attack another, and I'll eat my turban live on cam!:thumbs_up

 

[barney]

Experience in Canada indicates the kirpan is dangerous. Justice Campbell in Ontario Human Rights Commission and Harbhajan Singh Pandori v. Peel Board of Education:

http://australianatheist.blogspot.com/2007/12/as-reported-in-australian-education-and.html

There have been, in the Metropolitan Toronto area, three reported incidents of violent kirpan use. One involved a plea of guilty to attempted murder after a stabbing with a kirpan. In one street fight, a man was stabbed in the back with a kirpan. In one case, a kirpan was drawn for defensive purposes.


Im ever so sorry matey. You dont have to eat it all, just a quick nibble will suffice!
send us the You-Tube link when its up

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

Experience in Canada indicates the kirpan is dangerous. Justice Campbell in Ontario Human Rights Commission and Harbhajan Singh Pandori v. Peel Board of Education:

http://australianatheist.blogspot.com/2007/12/as-reported-in-australian-education-and.html

There have been, in the Metropolitan Toronto area, three reported incidents of violent kirpan use. One involved a plea of guilty to attempted murder after a stabbing with a kirpan. In one street fight, a man was stabbed in the back with a kirpan. In one case, a kirpan was drawn for defensive purposes.


Im ever so sorry matey. You dont have to eat it all, just a quick nibble will suffice!
send us the You-Tube link when its up

Where does it state the person involved was a Sikh? or for that matter a BAPTISED Sikh? that's is what I proposed. Any nut could have used it.

Please re-search - Until then, I'll be nibbling on cheese biscuits

 

[barney]

http://www.indianexpress.com/res/web/pIe/ie/daily/19991021/ige21112.html

But rather than post the multitude of incidents, Sikhs have used Kirpans in Battles for centuries. If it's never been used for violence then how come theres so many millons of dead with kirpan shaped holes in them.

I'm not denying that its a symbol and its a sign of resisting oppression, but sometimes as we can see from so many examples in this thread, resisting oppression is simply another word for blatant expansionism and violence.

One thing about it that puzzles me a little. Shouldnt it be a .40 caliber automatic these days? Swords are a bit 18th century.

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

http://www.indianexpress.com/res/web/pIe/ie/daily/19991021/ige21112.html

But rather than post the multitude of incidents, Sikhs have used Kirpans in Battles for centuries. If it's never been used for violence then how come theres so many millons of dead with kirpan shaped holes in them.

I'm not denying that its a symbol and its a sign of resisting oppression, but sometimes as we can see from so many examples in this thread, resisting oppression is simply another word for blatant expansionism and violence.

One thing about it that puzzles me a little. Shouldnt it be a .40 caliber automatic these days? Swords are a bit 18th century.

That link is for a fraud case?

Sikhs have not expanded using the sword. Defence yes, just as a soldier would use his/her weapon. Khalsa (that's the name) is a Saint Soldier, his/her job is to protect ALL, regardless of sex, colour, religion or sexuality.

Like I say, you'll need to educate yourself on Sikhism, before nit-picking. A better understanding of it will come naturally.

As for the caliber automatic, well as Sikhs are a martial race in india they carry guns freely AK47. The Kirpan is relevent today as it was back in the 17th century, Gurus also instructed they should be armed and ready for any conflict. Hence the need for it. Skihs had their own Empire, but if you read, you'll find they killed nobody to obtain it, or loot, plunder or rape. Something other religons can not really state they didin't do.

But, don't take my word for it, you're a dab hand at looking up links, look up our history, and then we can discuss any things you don't see fit.

 

[barney]

Heya.
Sorry, i should have quoted it,The Murder is a bit further down the page.

Aye, I'll check up on the history and stuff and we can have a proper natter then

Regards.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all,

If we are striving to be truthful to God and our religion, then we should always strive to do what is greatest.

In Christianity Jesus said the greatest commandments of God; are to love God and to love our neighbours as we love ourselves. He gave us the parable of the Good Samaritan to describe how the greatest commandments work. It tells how people who could be seen as enemies should help and love their enemies in desperate situations.

How was George Bush striving to follow in the footsteps of the greatest commandments when he said, God bless America, God is on our side, and then he bombed Iraq.

In the spirit of praying for peace on Earth

Eric

 

[Uthman]

If we are striving to be truthful to God and our religion, then we should always strive to do what is greatest.

In Christianity Jesus said the greatest commandments of God; are to love God and to love our neighbours as we love ourselves. He gave us the parable of the Good Samaritan to describe how the greatest commandments work. It tells how people who could be seen as enemies should help and love their enemies in desperate situations.

Very true, Uncle Eric! People often overlook how the scriptures teach us to treat even our so-called worst enemies with kindness.

 

[Uthman]

Greetings to all,

Having read some of the replies, I would like to make a few points:

1. People who lack in depth Islamic knowledge should not attempt to interpret verses of the Qur'an.

2. A good understanding of Arabic is essential for fully understanding the Qur'an. The fact that translations differ in so many ways is proof of this. Non-Muslims often argue that this point is just an excuse used by Muslims to escape the argument, but it most certainly is not!

3. All Muslims don't necessarily have to learn Arabic. They should look to what the majority of knowledgeable scholars say about any given issue with the evidence and follow that - Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said that the Ummah will never unite upon falsehood.

4. In modern times, I would argue that events such as 9/11 are done chiefly for political reasons, with religion used as justification. People who do attempt to use religion as justification are probably delusional - their minds clouded by what they perceive to be injustices done against them, and are at odds with the views of the majority of Muslim scholars anyway. Remember that suicide is explicitly declared haraam in the Qur'an, yet many terrorists are suicide bombers. This shows that they are not good Muslims. Also, harming women and children is explicitly made haraam, yet many terrorists do. This also shows that they are not good Muslims.

5. I have yet to see a verse of the Qur'an or an authentic hadith which condones unjust violence. Indeed, there are many examples of showing how Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) treated his enemies with such kindness, that they even became embarassed at how kind he was treating them.

Read this account:

“I was with one of the Ansari families, after being taken as captive. Whenever they had lunch or dinner, they used to give me preference by providing me with bread while they’d eat only dates, in compliance with the Prophet’s order to treat prisoners well.”

His name was Huzayr ibn Humayr. He has previously been a prisoner of war from the battle of Badr when he was battling against the Muslims. He later converted to Islam.

That, ladies and gents, is how Muslims are supposed to treat their worst enemies.

Now, in what way does the Qur'an or Sunnah encourage unjust violence?