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dcalling
11-26-2013, 04:45 AM
I was an atheist, after years arguing with my Christian friends, became a Christian, and then a semi devoted Christian, and started to study Islam a few month ago, just to make sure not to dismiss something before investigate it myself. Been over different websites (primarily answering-Christianity and answering-islam), did a lot of reading and they hurts.

I was pretty much made up my mind that Christianity is the true religion of God, alone with other evidences, it allows a sinner on death bed to enter heaven through grace of God because Jesus died for us, and in Islam that's not possible because he won't have any deed to back it up.

However yesterday night I was listening to a radio debate between Nabeel Qureshi and Yaha, and Yaha claimed that Islam is not a work based religion, contrary to what I have researched before (on several Islam website, which said Muhammad said at the end of days God will use something to weight a person's good deeds against his bad ones). But after search there are statements in Quran support both views.

So instead of keep doing research, I will just get on here and throw the questions myself. I will not hide my intensions, I still think Christianity is the true religion of God, and I am here to try to convince you (if God allows), and I have prayed many times to have the God's word shine through.

This is life and death. If Christianity is true, you guys can't enter heaven and be with God except through Jesus ("I am the way, truth, life, no one comes to the Father except through me"), so no matter how many good deeds you do, if not through Jesus you are not saved. However if Islam is true, then I can't enter heaven because I don't believe in Muhammad (even though I did most God's commandments and prayed to him through Jesus).

And I am not sure if it is too late if we change our minds upon the day of judgment, after finally seeing the truth.
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greenhill
11-26-2013, 05:33 AM
Welcome to the forum,

I hope this will not be your only post. Do feel free to browse through the site. Your first post is really about introduction so I won't go into commenting as yet. But as you quite rightly put it, this is life and death .....
.. and there is only one truth.

Peace :shade:
Reply

Nur Student
11-26-2013, 05:38 AM
Hi dcalling,

Welcome to the forum. I hope this will be a little of help. Please don't hesitate to ask any clarification if you don't understand, or any other questions if you have.



Worship is not the introduction to additional rewards, but the result of previous bounties. Yes, we have received our wage, and are accordingly charged with the duties of service and worship.


  • Because, O soul!, since the All-Glorious Creator, Who clothed you in existence which is pure good, has given you a stomach and appetite, through His Name of Provider, He has placed before you all foods on a table of bounties.
  • Then, since He has given you a life decked out with senses, life too requires sustenance like a stomach; all your senses like eyes and ears are like hands before which He has placed a table of bounties as broad as the earth.
  • Then, because He has given you humanity, which requires many immaterial foods and bounties, He has laid out before that stomach of humanity, in so far as the hand of the mind can reach, an extensive table of bounties as broad as the worlds of both the inner and outer dimensions of things.
  • Then, since He has given you Islam and belief, which require infinite bounties and are nourished through countless fruits of mercy and are supreme humanity, He has opened up before you a table of bounties, pleasure, and happiness which includes the sphere of contingency together with the sphere of His sacred Names and attributes.
  • Then, through giving you love of divine (muhabbetullah) and knowledge of divine (ma'rifetullah), which is a light of belief, He has bestowed on you an endless table of bounties, happiness, and pleasure.

That is to say, with regard to your corporeality you are an insignificant, weak, impotent, lowly, restricted, limited particular, but through His favour, you have as though risen from being an insignificant particular to being a universal, luminous whole. For by giving you life, He has raised you from particularity to a sort of universality; and by giving you humanity, to true universality; and by bestowing Islam on you, to an exalted, luminous universality; and by giving you knowledge and love of Him, He has elevated you to an all-encompassing light.

O soul! You have received this wage, and you are charged with the pleasurable, bountiful, easy, and light duty of worship. But you are lazy in this too. If you perform it half-heartedly, it is as though the former wages are insufficient for you and you are overbearingly wanting greater things. Also, you are complaining: “Why was my prayer not accepted?” But your right is not complaint, it is supplication. Through His pure grace and munificence, Almighty God bestows Paradise and eternal happiness. So seek refuge in His mercy and munificence constantly. Trust in Him and heed this decree:

Say: “In the bounty of God, and His mercy –in that let them rejoice;” that is better than the [wealth] they hoard." (Qur’an, 3:31)

~Second Fruit
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Signor
11-26-2013, 06:26 AM
Hello

Not sure what you actually want,the little I get is you want salvation.Try to give a read to following topics

http://www.islamicboard.com/discover...ation-sin.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...ess-islam.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/discover...atonement.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...atonement.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...atonement.html
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Muslim Woman
11-26-2013, 06:53 AM
Hello


Welcome here. Pl. browse the forum and feel free to ask about Islam in related threads or start new threads in general section.
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Hulk
11-26-2013, 08:15 AM
I would say that the first mistake you made was in trying to learn about Islam from an anti-islam website.
Reply

Insaanah
11-26-2013, 10:05 AM
Greeings dcalling and welcome to the forum.

Originally Posted by dcalling
I will not hide my intensions, I still think Christianity is the true religion of God, and I am here to try to convince you (if God allows), and I have prayed many times to have the God's word shine through.
Please note, that to proselytize or to promote a faith other than Islam, is against the forum rules, which are located here:

http://www.islamicboard.com/faq.php?..._liforum_rules

15.Promoting Religions other than Islam
While interfaith discussions are allowed promoting another religion is not allowed on the discussion board. This discussion board was created to promote Islam, not another religion. There are many other discussion boards on the Web which you can promote your religion other than Islam.
Our comparative religion section is currently closed, thus we are not taking threads debating two faiths against each other, just for debate. However, you are of course, most welcome to ask questions to learn about Islam.

Please do take the time to read the links in brother Signors posts, and once you've read them, let us know if you have any questions that stem from there, or indeed any other questions.

Peace.
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YusufNoor
11-26-2013, 12:46 PM
Originally Posted by dcalling
I was an atheist, after years arguing with my Christian friends, became a Christian, and then a semi devoted Christian, and started to study Islam a few month ago, just to make sure not to dismiss something before investigate it myself. Been over different websites (primarily answering-Christianity and answering-islam), did a lot of reading and they hurts.

I was pretty much made up my mind that Christianity is the true religion of God, alone with other evidences, it allows a sinner on death bed to enter heaven through grace of God because Jesus died for us, and in Islam that's not possible because he won't have any deed to back it up.

However yesterday night I was listening to a radio debate between Nabeel Qureshi and Yaha, and Yaha claimed that Islam is not a work based religion, contrary to what I have researched before (on several Islam website, which said Muhammad said at the end of days God will use something to weight a person's good deeds against his bad ones). But after search there are statements in Quran support both views.

So instead of keep doing research, I will just get on here and throw the questions myself. I will not hide my intensions, I still think Christianity is the true religion of God, and I am here to try to convince you (if God allows), and I have prayed many times to have the God's word shine through.

This is life and death. If Christianity is true, you guys can't enter heaven and be with God except through Jesus ("I am the way, truth, life, no one comes to the Father except through me"), so no matter how many good deeds you do, if not through Jesus you are not saved. However if Islam is true, then I can't enter heaven because I don't believe in Muhammad (even though I did most God's commandments and prayed to him through Jesus).

And I am not sure if it is too late if we change our minds upon the day of judgment, after finally seeing the truth.
the only thing that you could convince us of is that you are misguided.

as for who get's into heaven, Allah, and Allah alone decides that. one get's into heaven by Allah/s mercy, not by deeds.

i've never seen any contemporaneous evidence that suggests that what is called Christianity today, is what Jesus and his followers believed.

if, Christianity is true, which it is not, why is it that the Qur'an, in it's original language, was completed BEFORE the New Testament was in it's original language?

if, Christianity is true, which it is not, why is that Islamic beliefs were established BEFORE Christians figured out exactly what it takes to be a Christian, and in which there is still wide spread disagreement today?

if, Christianity is true, which it is not, why is it that Muslims follow the teachings of a Prophet of God, but Christians don't even follow what Jesus taught?

if, Christianity is true, which it is not, why is that if both the "Bible" and the Qur'an were completely destroyed, Muslims could recreate the Qur'an in a matter of days, while Christians could NEVER recreate their Bible? the task of recreating the Bible can never happen because, even today. Christians cannot agree on what the Bible is supposed to be?

if you think your "investigation" is over, i would suggest that you need a new investigator!
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crimsontide06
11-26-2013, 12:52 PM
Here are some sites with good info

http://www.islamreligion.com/category/33/

http://www.islamcan.com/index.shtml
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dcalling
11-26-2013, 11:01 PM
Thank you Greenhill, this will definitely not be my only post. It took me over 10 years arguing with my Christian friends to finally confirm it (though still have questions, at least I can live with them), and I think it will be a life long task to live by the word of God :-)

Blessings :-)
Reply

Muhammad
11-27-2013, 12:58 AM
Hello dcalling and welcome,

Many Christians have come here asking questions about Islam, investigating like yourself. The threads in brother Signor's post are some examples.

Here's a post I made recently in response to someone asking how do we know who is right:
http://www.islamicboard.com/discover...ml#post1599290
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dcalling
11-27-2013, 01:12 AM
Thanks Signor. I have done enough readings, know most of the basics of Islam and much more of Christianity. It doesn't mean I have read all, just mans I have read enough for my tiny mind to be able to understand in this period of time.
And to answer your question, yes I want salvation, and I want more people to be saved (or in my current mind, convert as many to Christianity as I can. I hope it is not too offensive to you :-)).
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crimsontide06
11-27-2013, 01:15 AM
Originally Posted by dcalling
convert as many to Christianity as I can. I hope it is not too offensive to you :-)).
I understand how you feel but you can't do that on a forum, just like I am sure Christian forums have, this forum has rules which state you can't come and try to convert people..etc.
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dcalling
11-27-2013, 01:16 AM
Hi Insaanah,

Thank you for point it out. I will try my best to obey forum rules. I have done a lot of readings for now and I will start to ask questions shortly. I am still trying to get through all my readings lately and get my questions out.
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Aprender
11-27-2013, 02:21 AM
Originally Posted by dcalling
If Christianity is true, you guys can't enter heaven and be with God except through Jesus ("I am the way, truth, life, no one comes to the Father except through me"), so no matter how many good deeds you do, if not through Jesus you are not saved. However if Islam is true, then I can't enter heaven because I don't believe in Muhammad (even though I did most God's commandments and prayed to him through Jesus).
I think this might be another misconception you have about Islam. Although we believe that Muhammad (peace be upon him) is the last and final messenger sent to all of mankind by Allah, believing that Jesus (peace be upon him) has to serve as an intermediary to "save" you is the problem here. Not only is this a grave violation of the first commandment, in Islam this is considered shirk. Jesus (peace be upon him) cannot save you on the day of judgement. Jesus came and taught pure monotheism which is the same as what Moses, Abraham, David, Noah, Lut (peace be upon them all) and all other prophets taught. Even Jesus didn't pray to God through himself. That makes no sense and no other messenger did this either. Believing that God would allow a mighty messenger to be humiliated and killed by disbelievers for your sins is insulting at the least and not taking responsibility for your actions in this life should also cause you great pause.

I was a former Christian too and also prayed that God would guide me. You would do well to study the origins and changes of the Bible throughout time. Question it, examine it and ask yourself what makes more sense. Read the whole thing. Cover to cover. Different translations, too. I understand what it's like to suddenly have faith but from your introduction here it's apparent that you didn't do proper research on Islam. You learned about it from anti-Islamic websites, you probably didn't read a proper translation of the Quran(there are quite a few bad ones out there) and I wonder if you sat down and actually talked to practicing Muslims or attended services at a mosque. But joining this forum is a good start. I encourage you to learn more and seek the truth. Not a truth you have created for yourself but a truth which puts you in full submission to God and Him only.

Welcome to the forum.
Reply

dcalling
11-27-2013, 04:00 AM
Thanks YusufNoor,
1. do you claim one can enter heaven without any deeds? Is there a Quran verse for it?
2. Jesus's word passed down through the early recordings, with many old manuscripts survived till today, older than Quran. The teachings are of divine nature, that is part of the reason why I became what I am today.
3. What do you mean the Quran was complete before New Testament? New Testament was completed at around 300ad, with very little changes later on.
4. To me to be a Christian means reborn from spirit (get rid of the old self and let God take control of you). They have other debates about thing of divine nature that there is no way to understand except when God show us that. But that is similar to Muslims, which have Sunnis, Shia, Sufis.
5. What do you think Christians don't follow Jesus taught? Some fake ones maybe, and some new ones doesn't do the 1/10 contribution to God. But many try out best to follow God, I am even trying to follow the Sabbath (still drive/watch movies but not any commercial activities)
6. I am sure people can recreate bible as well, I can't recite the bible but there are people who can. Some sect of Christians has more books than ours, but I am sure someone can recite those books as well. For us Christians, the command from God is Love God, Love others, and that is the Bible in 2 words.
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جوري
11-27-2013, 04:09 AM
Originally Posted by dcalling
The teachings are of divine nature,
Interesting, can you take this quiz and tell me how you score? For God doesn't author confusion of course :p

http://exchristian.net/3/
Reply

dcalling
11-27-2013, 05:24 AM
Originally Posted by Aprender
I think this might be another misconception you have about Islam. Although we believe that Muhammad (peace be upon him) is the last and final messenger sent to all of mankind by Allah, believing that Jesus (peace be upon him) has to serve as an intermediary to "save" you is the problem here. Not only is this a grave violation of the first commandment, in Islam this is considered shirk. Jesus (peace be upon him) cannot save you on the day of judgement. Jesus came and taught pure monotheism which is the same as what Moses, Abraham, David, Noah, Lut (peace be upon them all) and all other prophets taught. Even Jesus didn't pray to God through himself. That makes no sense and no other messenger did this either. Believing that God would allow a mighty messenger to be humiliated and killed by disbelievers for your sins is insulting at the least and not taking responsibility for your actions in this life should also cause you great pause.

I was a former Christian too and also prayed that God would guide me. You would do well to study the origins and changes of the Bible throughout time. Question it, examine it and ask yourself what makes more sense. Read the whole thing. Cover to cover. Different translations, too. I understand what it's like to suddenly have faith but from your introduction here it's apparent that you didn't do proper research on Islam. You learned about it from anti-Islamic websites, you probably didn't read a proper translation of the Quran(there are quite a few bad ones out there) and I wonder if you sat down and actually talked to practicing Muslims or attended services at a mosque. But joining this forum is a good start. I encourage you to learn more and seek the truth. Not a truth you have created for yourself but a truth which puts you in full submission to God and Him only.

Welcome to the forum.
Thank you Aprender, you and I come from the same back ground so it might be easier to communicate. From the word of Jesus, he is also God ("I and Father are one", "I am in the Father and Father is in me"). He is special, born of virgin and with many miracles. Our heavenly Father give him power to judge us, and everything come from him.

And I didn't learn/research Islam from anti islam websites only, the answering-Christianity website is pro islam, and I went to many Islam websites.

I don't create truth, I just research. One example is almost every Muslim I meet told me Bible is corrupted, that is more like creation. "The truth shall set us free", let's get to the bottom of this.
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Nur Student
11-27-2013, 05:25 AM
Originally Posted by جوري
Interesting, can you take this quiz and tell me how you score? For God doesn't author confusion of course

http://exchristian.net/3/
Let alone in God's words, even in a child's writings you wouldn't find so many simple controversies. It seems that not only a couple, but many people have put their inks into the Bible.

By the way, dcalling, what do you mean by 'very little changes after 300ad'? Do you have any other gods besides the three entities who have the authority to make changes in God's words?

I am sorry, but I don't believe that you made a thorough investigation of ten years before converting to Christianity. It seems more like you just surrendered because you wanted to be saved.
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dcalling
11-27-2013, 05:39 AM
OK, I can't even spell your name, but thank you, that was a good one. I got 0...

The last question shocked me a bit (i.e. can is his testimonies true by himself or not, I picked not), but when I try the other answer, and go again (not to cheat, but just to see were it says he can do that by himself), it give totally unrelated answers, I think I messed up the program a bit. I will check that one again on internet.

Most of others I already seen (I was shaking a lot more when I did the researches first on Islam, there were sites that are extremely knowledgeable, some even taught ancient Hebrew translations that actually changed my mind on certain things in Bible), and can be explained (several can't, I do agree, they can't reconcile). The last one is very trouble some, as it is not some blurred memories by disciples but from Jesus himself. It is too late today, wife is angry, so I will research that.

It is going to be a lot of work +o( but as I said truth is more important.
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YusufNoor
11-27-2013, 05:55 AM
Originally Posted by dcalling
Thanks YusufNoor,
1. do you claim one can enter heaven without any deeds? Is there a Quran verse for it?

nope, Allah is Maliki Yawmid Din. He decides who gets into heaven.

2. Jesus's word passed down through the early recordings, with many old manuscripts survived till today, older than Quran. The teachings are of divine nature, that is part of the reason why I became what I am today.

there are no contemporaneous witness statement's of the words of Jesus, pbuh. the earliest Gospel Mark, wasn't written until around 65-75 CE.

3. What do you mean the Quran was complete before New Testament? New Testament was completed at around 300ad, with very little changes later on.

but there were changes later on! Protestants didn't finish editing the Bible, until there were Protestant. Catholics didn't finish writing the NT, in it's original language, until the fourteenth or fifteenth century. The Qur'an was finished when the Prophet, pbuh, died.

4. To me to be a Christian means reborn from spirit (get rid of the old self and let God take control of you). They have other debates about thing of divine nature that there is no way to understand except when God show us that. But that is similar to Muslims, which have Sunnis, Shia, Sufis.

Christians still debate what it means to be a Christian. Shii'ism isn't Islam, Sufism isn't Islam, although there are some "Sufis" who do follow the Din, and very well, i might add. there is no question, Muhammad, pbuh, taught clearly what it entails to be a Muslim. Christians use books by anonymous authors, and even authors who lied about their identity. there were ecumenical councils even after the Prophet, pbuh, died, therefore, Islam and the Qur'an, despite Christianity having a 500 year head start, were completed first!


5. What do you think Christians don't follow Jesus taught? Some fake ones maybe, and some new ones doesn't do the 1/10 contribution to God. But many try out best to follow God, I am even trying to follow the Sabbath (still drive/watch movies but not any commercial activities)

Christians, the majority, don't follow jesus, pbuh, at all! they follow Paul!

6. I am sure people can recreate bible as well, I can't recite the bible but there are people who can. Some sect of Christians has more books than ours, but I am sure someone can recite those books as well. For us Christians, the command from God is Love God, Love others, and that is the Bible in 2 words.
i'm guessing there are over 10 million people today, who can recite the entire Qur'an from memory. Christians can't even decide what the Bible is!

according to the author of Mark, chapter 12:

28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices
.

repeat after me, "O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord"

and, "for there is one God; and there is none other but he"

show us a Bible verse where Jesus, pbuh, says to worship a trinity.

ma salaama
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greenhill
11-27-2013, 06:24 AM
Originally Posted by dcalling
I don't create truth, I just research. One example is almost every Muslim I meet told me Bible is corrupted, that is more like creation. "The truth shall set us free", let's get to the bottom of this.

"The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]......." (9:30) Sahih International

Important point above is 'imitate the saying...' which was never true.


"And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, “O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, ‘Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?’” He will say, “Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. I said not to them except what You commanded me — to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness."(5:116-117) Sahih International

Above is a quote from the Quran where Jesus will deny the main belief about the holy Trinity.

With the main issue about the status of Jesus as believed by the Christians in doubt (based on Quranic excerpts), how can we believe that salvation can be achieved by accepting Christianity's claim when the fundamental belief (Trinity) is flawed.

Peace :shade:
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Muhaba
11-27-2013, 08:59 AM
Welcome.

I am reading a book by Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips called "The Message of Christ." It has some interesting information you may want to look at. It might help you in your comparison of Islam and Christianity.
Reply

dcalling
11-27-2013, 12:38 PM
Originally Posted by Nur Student

Let alone in God's words, even in a child's writings you wouldn't find so many simple controversies. It seems that not only a couple, but many people have put their inks into the Bible.

By the way, dcalling, what do you mean by 'very little changes after 300ad'? Do you have any other gods besides the three entities who have the authority to make changes in God's words?

I am sorry, but I don't believe that you made a thorough investigation of ten years before converting to Christianity. It seems more like you just surrendered because you wanted to be saved.
I am not concerned too much about simple mistakes, those are all humans writers writing events years before, and the mistakes (although concerns me) are small, and it shows no one tried to cover up anything (no one tried to correct them).
And no one has authority to change God's words. Do you not believe that God have the ability to put part of himself into a human? I believe Jesus is sinless and is put forward by God as an example of how to live a sinless life.

And last, the 10 years of my struggle against my Christian friends (I feel sorry to insult them now) is mostly my change from atheist to believe there is a God. Picking Bible also took a long time too. Unlike most, I has a had time believe in Jesus and at times even want to just stick with Old Testament. But the more I read it, the more it seems he speak the word of God, and the matter that most of disciples died by prosecution help the case a lot. They all scattered after his death, but they were full of faith in him again after his resurrection.
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dcalling
11-27-2013, 12:46 PM
I will repeat after you, "O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord". I don't think Jesus ever said to worship trinity, I don't think the word trinity existed in the Bible. However multiple account in the Bibles says Jesus was worshiped by his disciples, and he didn't prevent them from doing so. In my (limited) understand, God put part of himself in Jesus (his only son, as Jesus is the only one created without an earthly Father) to show us what a sinless life is. And from Jesus's own word it shows, that Jesus and the Father are one, and that they are in each other.
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dcalling
11-27-2013, 12:48 PM
Also the Christians can argue all alone (Muslims do too), but the main text didn't change and everyone can study and draw their own conclusions.
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جوري
11-27-2013, 03:31 PM
Originally Posted by dcalling
However multiple account in the Bibles says Jesus was worshiped by his disciples
Have you taken the bible quiz I have posted for you?
If you can't get your biblical passages to agree on some key events and if God has many sons per bible including satan himself:
Now it fell upon a day, that the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.—Job 1:6 (JPS)
why should anyone subscribe to your account of the trinity? At any rate it isn't the only obstacle in christianity but it is certainly the fulcrum that makes all else crumble!

best,
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greenhill
11-27-2013, 04:04 PM
Originally Posted by dcalling
God put part of himself in Jesus (his only son, as Jesus is the only one created without an earthly Father)
And Adam without earthly Parents, Eve without an earthly Mother. Does not make them in anyway more 'godly' than us. The 'ruh' which is for everybody comes from Allah.

Peace :shade:
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YusufNoor
11-27-2013, 04:49 PM
Originally Posted by dcalling
I will repeat after you, "O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord". I don't think Jesus ever said to worship trinity, I don't think the word trinity existed in the Bible. However multiple account in the Bibles says Jesus was worshiped by his disciples, and he didn't prevent them from doing so. In my (limited) understand, God put part of himself in Jesus (his only son, as Jesus is the only one created without an earthly Father) to show us what a sinless life is. And from Jesus's own word it shows, that Jesus and the Father are one, and that they are in each other.
most of the accounts that imply divinity on the part of Jesus, pbuh, are from the Gospel (allegedly) of John. this particular gospel is dated to about 95 AD. this is 2 generations after Jesus, pbuh, ascended into heaven.

laying out the Gospels in their historical order, and reading them separately,shows 4 clearly different Jesus'. you can trace an evolution of Christian theology.

why did it take 60+ years for Jesus to become God??? and if Jesus was God, as you claim, why is it that he wasn't articulate or knowledgeable enough to deliver the Christian message that eventually developed?

if Jesus and the Father are one (in any aspect), they are still 2. there is only One True God, as Jesus, himself, is reported to have said.

ma salaama
Reply

Nur Student
11-27-2013, 07:07 PM
Originally Posted by dcalling
In my (limited) understand, God put part of himself in Jesus (his only son, as Jesus is the only one created without an earthly Father) to show us what a sinless life is.
All the prophets are without sins, not only Prophet 'Eesa or 'Isa (Jesus in Arabic -peace be upon him). They have mistakes but they don't commit sins.

Originally Posted by dcalling
And from Jesus's own word it shows, that Jesus and the Father are one, and that they are in each other.
So you are basically saying that it is one God, but has put some part of himself into the human body of Jesus. So, Jesus is a human being. Am I right?

In Islam, we believe that Allah is everywhere, but with his knowledge and power, not with His body. (Continues creation and change in the universe in an orderly, balanced, wise and beautiful fashion prove this) He doesn't have a physical body, nor a shape. He is not limited with time and space.


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dcalling
11-27-2013, 07:31 PM
Originally Posted by جوري
Have you taken the bible quiz I have posted for you?
If you can't get your biblical passages to agree on some key events and if God has many sons per bible including satan himself:
Now it fell upon a day, that the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.—Job 1:6
why should anyone subscribe to your account of the trinity? At any rate it isn't the only obstacle in christianity but it is certainly the fulcrum that makes all else crumble!

best,
Yes I did take the quiz, in my previous thread I did some explanation (and I got a 0 score). I have not done the research I wanted yet, I will do them.
I have read this passage before, I think it is referring all God's creations his sons, and Satan is certainly created by God as well. I think it is also the Islam belief (all things are created by God) as well, but I am not sure.

I am not asking everyone to subscribe to trinity, I only worship God, I listen to the Holy spirit but I don't worship it (it might be different than what elders in our church believes and considered heretic, but I only follow the book).
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dcalling
11-27-2013, 07:48 PM
Originally Posted by YusufNoor
most of the accounts that imply divinity on the part of Jesus, pbuh, are from the Gospel (allegedly) of John. this particular gospel is dated to about 95 AD. this is 2 generations after Jesus, pbuh, ascended into heaven.

laying out the Gospels in their historical order, and reading them separately,shows 4 clearly different Jesus'. you can trace an evolution of Christian theology.

why did it take 60+ years for Jesus to become God??? and if Jesus was God, as you claim, why is it that he wasn't articulate or knowledgeable enough to deliver the Christian message that eventually developed?

if Jesus and the Father are one (in any aspect), they are still 2. there is only One True God, as Jesus, himself, is reported to have said.

ma salaama
I will research on that, I did saw part where Jesus said don't call him good, non is good but God alone.
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جوري
11-27-2013, 07:50 PM
Originally Posted by dcalling
I think it is referring all God's creations his sons, and Satan is certainly created by God as well. I think it is also the Islam belief (all things are created by God) as well, but I am not sure
All things are created by God and all things are 'sons of God' are separate things completely.



Originally Posted by dcalling
I am not asking everyone to subscribe to trinity
well forgive me I was under the impression that you were per this:

Originally Posted by dcalling
I will not hide my intensions, I still think Christianity is the true religion of God, and I am here to try to convince you (if God allows), and I have prayed many times to have the God's word shine through.
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dcalling
11-27-2013, 07:56 PM
Originally Posted by Nur Student

All the prophets are without sins, not only Prophet 'Eesa or 'Isa (Jesus in Arabic -peace be upon him). They have mistakes but they don't commit sins.

So you are basically saying that it is one God, but has put some part of himself into the human body of Jesus. So, Jesus is a human being. Am I right?

In Islam, we believe that Allah is everywhere, but with his knowledge and power, not with His body. (Continues creation and change in the universe in an orderly, balanced, wise and beautiful fashion prove this) He doesn't have a physical body, nor a shape. He is not limited with time and space.
Adam is a prophet (in Islam) and he sinned by disobeying God and ate what was not supposed to be eaten.
And yes that is correct, Jesus has a human body according to what I read from Bible, the explaination will be part of God is in him and he is doing all what God want him to do, so acting as God (it is like kissing the hand of a king is kissing the king, so I would think Jeus is like the hand of God, where the essense, or spirit , or power of God controller that human body).
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dcalling
11-27-2013, 08:09 PM
Originally Posted by جوري
All things are created by God and all things are 'sons of God' are separate things completely.
==> Maybe, I don't claim to understand all things in the Bible, I am just throwing my interpretations around.

well forgive me I was under the impression that you were per this:
Don't worry, when I say Christianity, I mean the Bible, not any human interpretation of it (even if it is popular). Be it Bible, Quran or even Torah (at least that is the root of all things that I can fall back to), the mort important thing is to let God's word shine through, and follow that.
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Nur Student
11-27-2013, 08:48 PM
Originally Posted by dcalling
Adam is a prophet (in Islam) and he sinned by disobeying God and ate what was not supposed to be eaten.
He wasn't a prophet then. Why do you think there would be a need for a prophet in paradise? Besides, there are many wisdoms in his being expelled from paradise.

Peace,
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Muhammad
11-28-2013, 12:44 AM
This thread is now closed.

Please post questions in this new thread: http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...ml#post1601285

Please also focus on one or two issues at a time otherwise it becomes very confusing to follow the discussion.

We are happy to help you understand Islam if you are sincerely searching for the truth, but if you are simply here to raise anti-Islamic allegations you have read on dubious websites, then such discussions will come to a quick closure.
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