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cali dude
02-14-2007, 02:09 AM
Today, it has been proven that women are equally capable as men.

Then how come, Islam doesn't provide with equality? For example, a man is allowed to beat his wife. A man can have many wives even though it's proven that women can equally capable of earning as much as men, in some cases even more than men. Then how come a woman isn't allowed to have many husbands if she can afford to do so?
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
02-14-2007, 02:28 AM
Answered before. What you asked about and more:

http://www.islamicboard.com/305540-post4.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...erse-34-a.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/83471-post9.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/83512-post11.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/83533-post25.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/83622-post52.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/83780-post67.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/83964-post93.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/589979-post82.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/590471-post89.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/590783-post91.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/591600-post101.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/592106-post104.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/592835-post108.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/593491-post134.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/593828-post137.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/593855-post138.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/594657-post150.html

You'll find more in the respective threads.
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syilla
02-14-2007, 02:31 AM
Lol. Don't you know the status of woman in islam? You should try learning about that first before you come and post.

Try reading this first.

source

By : Shaykh Ali At-Timimi

With that brief introduction, one of the topics of contention between these two worlds views, that of the secular liberal humanist in the West and the Islamic tradition, concerns women. What is the position and status of women? How are women looked to? Are women elevated in one culture and oppressed in another?

The Western view is that women are elevated only in the West and that they are getting more and more rights with the passage of time, while their sisters - they say - in the Islamic world are still being suppressed. The Muslims who they encounter say that in actuality it is the Islamic system that provides the true freedoms for men and women alike, and women in the West as well as men, are deceived into an idea of freedom which really doesn't exist. What I'd like to discuss this evening is exactly how Islaam looks to women. And therefore my discussion will be more upon - what we might say for the lack of a better term - the philosophical basis, rather than the individual practices which vary from one country to the other. How women are understood in Islaam cannot be properly understood - and this is more significant, I feel - unless one understands exactly what we might call the philosophical basis or ideological understanding - since this is really a theological concept.
This verse might be translated as the following: "And the believing men and women are," what we might translate as, "awliyaa" - the word in Arabic for friends or allies or supporters of one another, "they" - meaning men and women - "bid to that which is correct" i.e. they commend that which is correct, "and they forbid that which is evil". And this is a corrective process in society, removing evil and commending that which is good. And then "they perform the prayer", both men and women, "they pay the alms", or the charity to the poor, "and they obey God and His Messenger." And then God shows them the reward and that they are those upon whom God will have mercy and God is Almighty and All-Wise.

So in this verse, we find that the social contract between men and women, as individuals in the society, is the same, that they both go for the highest goal of bidding or commanding that which is correct, forbidding that which is evil, and that they share in the two major acts of worship, which are the prayer and giving charity. They share in the beliefs and obedience to God and obedience to the Prophet Muhammad (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) and likewise, they share in the reward in the end of obtaining Allah's mercy. This is a very important concept, which is in contradiction with what the western tradition is upon today, and that is as I said as a result of the initial extreme of the Greek philosophers that women did not share in humanity. As the result of that extreme another extreme occurred - at least the Muslims consider it extreme - that there is no difference between men and women.
By : Ansar Al-'Adl

source

Concerning the pyschological differences between men and women, an article entitled Men and Women Really Do Think Differently quotes a recent neurological study:
Psychology professor Richard Haier of the University of California, Irvine led the research along with colleagues from the University of New Mexico. Their findings show that in general, men have nearly 6.5 times the amount of gray matter related to general intelligence compared with women, whereas women have nearly 10 times the amount of white matter related to intelligence compared to men. [...]In human brains, gray matter represents information processing centers, whereas white matter works to network these processing centers.
The results from this study may help explain why men and women excel at different types of tasks, said co-author and neuropsychologist Rex Jung of the University of New Mexico. For example, men tend to do better with tasks requiring more localized processing, such as mathematics, Jung said, while women are better at integrating and assimilating information from distributed gray-matter regions of the brain, which aids language skills.
What Islam Says

Islam recognizes that while men and women have some physical differences, spiritually they enjoy absolute equality before God. The Qur'an and Ahadith are unequivocal in stating that one's gender will have absolutely no bearing on their reward or punishment in the next life.

3:195 I shall not lose sight of the labor of any of you who labors in My way, be it man or woman; each of you is equal to the other

4:124 If any do deeds of righteousness,- be they male or female - and have faith, they will enter Heaven, and not the least injustice will be done to them.

16:97 Whoever works righteousness, man or woman, and has Faith, verily, to him will We give a new Life, a life that is good and pure and We will bestow on such their reward according to the best of their actions.

40:40 "He that works evil will not be requited but by the like thereof: and he that works a righteous deed - whether man or woman - and is a Believer- such will enter the Garden (of Bliss): Therein will they have abundance without measure.

33:35 Indeed, the Muslim men and Muslim women - the believing men and believing women, the obedient men and obedient women, the truthful men and truthful women, the patient men and patient women, the humble men and humble women, the charitable men and charitable women, the fasting men and fasting women, the men who guard their private parts and the women who do so, and the men who remember Allah often and the women who do so - for all has Allah prepared forgiveness and a great reward.

49:13 O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Verily, the most honourable of you with Allah is the most pious. Verily, Allah is All-Knowing, All-Aware.

Therefore Islam openly declares that men and women have an equal status and value before God, and piety alone differentiates one individual from another.
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cali dude
02-14-2007, 02:37 AM
Instead of going through all of this, can some answer simple question?

If a man is allowed to have many wives and if women are equal to men, are women allowed to have many husbands as well? :-)
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Malaikah
02-14-2007, 02:37 AM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Today, it has been proven that women are equally capable as men.
That is not true- everyone knows that men can't have babies! And I've never heard of a female plumber, builder, electrician, carpenter etc...

Then how come, Islam doesn't provide with equality?
It does.

For example, a man is allowed to beat his wife.
Not true, see the links provided above.
A man can have many wives even though it's proven that women can equally capable of earning as much as men, in some cases even more than men. Then how come a woman isn't allowed to have many husbands if she can afford to do so?
And who is going to earn the cash when the wife is pregnant and has a little baby?:rolleyes:

In Islam, the roles of husband and wife are clearly defined. It is the husbands duty to provide money and care for the wife and children, not the wife's duty. In return for that care, the wife takes care of the children and the household, because that is what suites her more. If she wants to work, she is allowed to, but any money she earns is 100% hers and the husband has no right to it at all, whereas the money earned by the husband must be spent on the wife and kids.

So, the point you raise is baseless, you expect the wife to earn money to take care of the husband? That is not how it works, the husband is the one who must take care of the wife, not sit around at home like a useless person while the wife has the burden of earning a living for the family and being a mother at the same time (and everyone knows what a hassle it is to be a mother).

Oh, and I can't imagine any women in her right mind wanting more than 1 husband while having to provide for all of them! Women want men who are going to provide for them.

Also, a women can not have more than one husband for the simply reason that it would be traumatic on those involved to try to figure out who is the father other child.

It would also be extremely hard for one woman to satisfy the sexual desires of more than one man.

Hope that helps! :)
Reply

cali dude
02-14-2007, 03:07 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
That is not true- everyone knows that men can't have babies! And I've never heard of a female plumber, builder, electrician, carpenter etc...
Men not be able to have babies only proves that women are superior to men. Come to America, you'll see 'em all. Women are doing everything, driving trucks and everything else.


It does.


Originally Posted by Malaikah
Not true, see the links provided above.
This is the site where I learnt that a man is allowed to beat his wife as long as he leaves no marks on her body.

Originally Posted by Malaikah
And who is going to earn the cash when the wife is pregnant and has a little baby?:rolleyes:
Have you heard of something called maternity leave?

Originally Posted by Malaikah
In Islam, the roles of husband and wife are clearly defined. It is the husbands duty to provide money and care for the wife and children, not the wife's duty. In return for that care, the wife takes care of the children and the household, because that is what suites her more. If she wants to work, she is allowed to, but any money she earns is 100% hers and the husband has no right to it at all, whereas the money earned by the husband must be spent on the wife and kids.
So is it written from the time of prophet somewhere that if she wants to work she can but the money she brings home is hers or is it something was added recently when women started working?

Originally Posted by Malaikah
So, the point you raise is baseless, you expect the wife to earn money to take care of the husband? That is not how it works, the husband is the one who must take care of the wife, not sit around at home like a useless person while the wife has the burden of earning a living for the family and being a mother at the same time (and everyone knows what a hassle it is to be a mother).

Oh, and I can't imagine any women in her right mind wanting more than 1 husband while having to provide for all of them! Women want men who are going to provide for them.
It isn't matter of expecting her to earn money. It's a matter of if is earning money. I am pretty sure there Muslim female doctors, making lots of money. So why wouldn't she have the same rights as men?


Originally Posted by Malaikah
It would also be extremely hard for one woman to satisfy the sexual desires of more than one man.
I am not sure if this is true. I think it's the other way around :-)
Reply

Malaikah
02-14-2007, 06:38 AM
Originally Posted by cali dude
This is the site where I learnt that a man is allowed to beat his wife as long as he leaves no marks on her body.
That isn't beating though.

Have you heard of something called maternity leave?
How long does it last for and is it payed? Unless you're expecting the little kids to be thrown into day care?
So is it written from the time of prophet somewhere that if she wants to work she can but the money she brings home is hers or is it something was added recently when women started working?
Yes, this is not something new.
It isn't matter of expecting her to earn money. It's a matter of if is earning money. I am pretty sure there Muslim female doctors, making lots of money. So why wouldn't she have the same rights as men?
Because it is not her duty to earn the money! It is the husbands duty. Even if you wanted to argue that women should be allowed multiple husbands, you are forgetting that it is her husbands that have to provide money for her, not the other way around, so it doesn't matter how rich she is or how poor she is, the husband provides, not the wife.

By the way, what right? She already has the right to work and keep her own money, the husband doesn't even have that right.

You can't give men and women the same rights in every aspect of like- that is not just, you will end up oppressing someone. They need to be given rights according to their abilities etc.
I am not sure if this is true. I think it's the other way around :-)
You must be kidding...?
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Malaikah
02-14-2007, 06:42 AM
With regards to women having multiple husbands:

There is no point in giving a woman the right to marry multiple husbands, rather that is beneath her dignity and she would not know the lineage of her children, because she is the one who bears the offspring, and it is not permissible for the offspring to be formed from the sperm of a number of men lest the lineage of the child be lost and no one will know who is responsible for bringing up the child; this will lead to breakdown of families, loss of ties between fathers and children, which is not permitted in Islam as it is not in the interests of the woman or of the child or of society as a whole.

Read this article for more information about polygamy in general:
http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=14022&ln=eng
Reply

nocturne
02-14-2007, 03:52 PM
to simply put it. If a women were to marry a few men, and if she is to be pregnant. Would you know who the father is? (actually thinking about, nowadays u can find the lineage throught DNA tests).
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cali dude
02-14-2007, 04:31 PM
Malaikah,

We are not talking about her to provide, instead her ability to provide and once she is capable of providing, which I am pretty sure a lot of female Muslim doctors do, why doesn't she have the same rights as men? Why does she still have to wear burka and why does she still get beaten up by Talibans http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZiYT1ywtXxA?

Are you saying when a Muslim is makes a lot of money working as a doctor for example, she doesn't support family at all?
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AvarAllahNoor
02-14-2007, 04:45 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah

It would also be extremely hard for one woman to satisfy the sexual desires of more than one man.

Hope that helps! :)
But a man is supposed to take control of his desires on earth, so why the need for five wives, when in Jannah he'll be rewarded with Houris?
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cali dude
02-14-2007, 04:50 PM
When it comes to sexual satisfaction, one-on-one is the best way to go. No one can satisfy five of opposite gender.
Reply

Dawud_uk
02-14-2007, 04:52 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Today, it has been proven that women are equally capable as men.

Then how come, Islam doesn't provide with equality? For example, a man is allowed to beat his wife. A man can have many wives even though it's proven that women can equally capable of earning as much as men, in some cases even more than men. Then how come a woman isn't allowed to have many husbands if she can afford to do so?
be careful,

several sikh guru's also had multiple wives!

but i will answer your query as this,

are men and women equal? yes of-course they are.
are they the same? no of-course they are not!

women can take more pain and can do things physically men cannot do, the same way men can do some things physically that women cannot and generally have more strength.

women are more emotional than men, a clear advantage when dealing with families and children but sometimes can be a disadvantage at other times.

men and women have different aspects of strength in mental abilities, year on year men do better at maths at school and women better at english.

so can be seen that men and women are equal but not the same.
not the same physically.
not the same emotionally.
not the same mentally.

therefore God in his wisdom when he gave us the shariah made it so that these differences are allowed for and that each sex is given a role more suited to its relative strengths and weaknesses.

Abu Abdullah
Reply

Umar001
02-14-2007, 04:56 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Today, it has been proven that women are equally capable as men.
What happend today?? Have I missed something :eek:

I would be very interesting for me personally to take part in this dialogue but in order to avoid confusion and since there are about 3 people speaking to you I'll stay out.

Insha'Allah.

Eesa. :)


EDIT CHECK LATER IN THE THREAD.
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Abdul Fattah
02-14-2007, 05:02 PM
the important difference between the western and Islamic approach to this is that Islam says that man and woman are equal in worth, but at teh same time recognizes the differences in nature of men and woman and adjusts the rules so that the two different people get treated equally. Because if you treat two people with different characteristics in the same way one will have a disadvantage due to the characteristics.
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Abdul Fattah
02-14-2007, 05:04 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
When it comes to sexual satisfaction, one-on-one is the best way to go. No one can satisfy five of opposite gender.
Note that it is forbidden in Islam for a husband to sleep with several of his wives simultaneously. So the sexual acts are always one on one.
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seeker_of_ilm
02-14-2007, 05:06 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
But a man is supposed to take control of his desires on earth, so why the need for five wives, when in Jannah he'll be rewarded with Houris?
A man is supposed to take control of his desires with regards to extra-marital affairs, yes. However, a married couple are permitted to act out their desires with each other in a lawful manner.

With regards to multiple wives, I believe you mean 4. Yes Allah has permitted a Muslim man to take 4 wives, but there are also conditions derived from what has been said:

1. “but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one”

This verse shows that just treatment is a condition for plural marriage to be permitted. If he is afraid that he will not be able to treat them properly, it if forbidden for him to marry more than one. What is meant by the justice that is required in order for a man to be permitted to have more than one wife is that he should treat his wives equally in terms of spending, clothing, spending the night with them and other material things that are under his control.


2. The ability to spend on one’s wives:

The evidence for this condition is the verse:

“And let those who find not the financial means for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allaah enriches them of His Bounty”

Allowing plural wives is also a solution for when women become widowed, and need to be taken care of. So you see we are not commanded to, or encouraged to marry 4, we are simply permitted to. And if the women are consenting to marry someone who is already married, then what business is it of anybody elses? God has permitted her, and she has consented. Simple.

May I also ask, this is just out of interest, is there a limit set in the Sikh scriptures regarding how many wives a man may take?

Thank you
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cali dude
02-14-2007, 05:08 PM
Originally Posted by steve
Note that it is forbidden in Islam for a husband to sleep with several of his wives simultaneously. So the sexual acts are always one on one.
So are you saying that Malaikah's argument that a wife wouldn't be able satisfy five men doesn't make sense here?
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Dawud_uk
02-14-2007, 05:10 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
So are you saying that Malaikah's argument that a wife wouldn't be able satisfy five men doesn't make sense here?
in general men are more lustful than women, in general, so no her argument is correct.
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aamirsaab
02-14-2007, 05:15 PM
:sl:
Polygamy has less to do with lust/sexual drive and more to do with supporting others economically.
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AvarAllahNoor
02-14-2007, 05:19 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
be careful,

several sikh guru's also had multiple wives!

Abu Abdullah
Please provide authentic evidence and not concocted up by hindu haters on the net!
Reply

Umar001
02-14-2007, 05:20 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Instead of going through all of this, can some answer simple question?
I am sorry to say this but the above is indicative of a person who is insincere, if you would really and truly want answers then surely you would travel lenghts to find it, and if you found that difficult you would ask people to be more specific and point places from those threads, not just merely disregard them.

Then again that is a wrong doing to the self and not to others.


Originally Posted by cali dude
If a man is allowed to have many wives and if women are equal to men, are women allowed to have many husbands as well? :-)

I think first you should explain to us the understanding you have of equality. Do you think that men and women are equal so men should wear skirts? Do you think there should not be a seperate toilet, but rather just one toilet, do you think women should be allowed to go top less in the street? Many such questions are answered with a stern 'No' by those same people who profess the totally identicality of women, not equality but identicality. As though women and men are identical.

Maybe your terminology should be as I said before explained before commencing further.


Originally Posted by cali dude
Men not be able to have babies only proves that women are superior to men.

So now your telling us women are superior to men, but that seems contradictory!

Whilst if we take the stance that we as Muslims hold, i.e. they are equal in the sight of God, but in other matters of life one might naturally more adapt whilst in another the other might be more adapt, then we come to what you have said, i.e. women are superior in the area of having babies, whilst men might be superior in another field.


Originally Posted by cali dude
Have you heard of something called maternity leave?
Are you suggesting that women could have and support 4 husbands, whislt she was on maternity leave, so let me picture this, we according to this could have a work force of women, who would support men who would not have to work, and would support men even on maternity leave, which would be most of the time since they would be having 4 husbands. Which in practicality would mean that the people who cannot have kids and the older generation who are unable to get pregnant would do all the work, whilst the majority of women who can have kids would be on maternity leave alot of the time with husbands who would not work.

You seriously believe that would work?


Originally Posted by cali dude
It isn't matter of expecting her to earn money. It's a matter of if is earning money. I am pretty sure there Muslim female doctors, making lots of money. So why wouldn't she have the same rights as men?
Making the same amount of money does not change someone's gender. Can a man who makes the same amount of money as the average woman then say he should have the right to have kids?

Originally Posted by cali dude
I am not sure if this is true. I think it's the other way around :-)
Again your mistaken. Men can be aroused much quicker than women, men also reach their climax naturally quicker than women, so if a woman had more than one husband it would mean she would need to be able to keep them happy, which would be a hard task since males as I said are aroused quicker so it is unlikely she could respond to all of them at the same time, unlike females where their arousal is most of the time brought about by the husband's actions.

Originally Posted by cali dude
Malaikah,

We are not talking about her to provide, instead her ability to provide and once she is capable of providing, which I am pretty sure a lot of female Muslim doctors do, why doesn't she have the same rights as men? Why does she still have to wear burka and why does she still get beaten up by Talibans http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZiYT1ywtXxA?

Are you saying when a Muslim is makes a lot of money working as a doctor for example, she doesn't support family at all?
You seem to feel Burka is a punishment or a social badge that a women wears because she is of a lower class, and because she finally makes money she should be freed from such a thing, rather the covering of both men and women are not dependent on social status or income!

I cannot view that video incorect link the site is telling me but it is interesting you brought the taliban into the equasion.


Furthermore, I encourage you to let us touch on the fundamentals of Islaam, let me ask you for a change, do you have a religion or faith you follow, what is your belief system?

Do you have any problems with the attributes of God in Islaam?

Eesa
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
02-14-2007, 05:23 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
in general men are more lustful than women, in general, so no her argument is correct.
Maybe so. - Does not mean the need of 4 wives is acceptable. It's seen as a upperand by most muslim men.
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aamirsaab
02-14-2007, 05:25 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Maybe so. - Does not mean the need of 4 wives is acceptable. It's seen as a upperand by most muslim men.
The ruling for the 4 wives is that it is the maximum limit - a muslim isn't obligated to marry 4.
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AvarAllahNoor
02-14-2007, 05:26 PM
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
[B]Again your mistaken. Men can be aroused much quicker than women, men also reach their climax naturally quicker than women, so if a woman had more than one husband it would mean she would need to be able to keep them happy, which would be a hard task since males as I said are aroused quicker so it is unlikely she could respond to all of them at the same time, unlike females where their arousal is most of the time brought about by the husband's actions.
I like the justification, No wonder it lures so many men to Islam. :D
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cali dude
02-14-2007, 05:26 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
in general men are more lustful than women, in general, so no her argument is correct.
But since it's one-on-one at a time, ability to satisfy multiple partner is not really a good argument, is it? I don't think men with multiple wives have sex with all every night, do you?
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aamirsaab
02-14-2007, 05:28 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by cali dude
But since it's one-on-one at a time, ability to satisfy multiple partner is not really a good argument, is it? I don't think men with multiple wives have sex with all every night, do you?
You're going around in circles.
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Dawud_uk
02-14-2007, 05:34 PM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl:


You're going around in circles.
dont think the dude is married otherwise this would make sense to him a lot more.

Abu Abdullah
Reply

Woodrow
02-14-2007, 05:44 PM
I wish you could talk to either of my daughters. I think you would see that the views of a Muslimah are quite different than what it seems you have been lead to believe.





Originally Posted by cali dude
Today, it has been proven that women are equally capable as men.

Then how come, Islam doesn't provide with equality? For example, a man is allowed to beat his wife. A man can have many wives even though it's proven that women can equally capable of earning as much as men, in some cases even more than men. Then how come a woman isn't allowed to have many husbands if she can afford to do so?
Equality does not mean same in the sense of identical. It would be very unwise for women and men to have the same treatment for all situations in the name of equality.

That would mean unisexual treatment. No seperate male/female restrooms in public places. No time off work for maternity leave. Pregnancy would be viewed as a disorder that needs to be cured. Just a few thoughts that immediatly come to mind.


Now about the way women are treated in marriage, that would best be answered by a Muslimah that was in a Non-Muslim marriage prior to her reverting to Islam.

My youngest daughter had just that experience. I will not go into details but after her divorce she reverted to Islam and a few years later she married a very fine Muslim husband. She will immediatly tell anybody that she has found more freedom then she ever dreamed possible in her Muslim marriage. Just a few examples her husband can not touch a single penny of any money that is hers. But, he still has to provide for all of her finacial needs even if she has more money than he has. She has no obligation to pay for any household expenses. Yes, she does work and she does go to school. She has now been been a student for nearly 20 years and pursues as much education in whatever fields she desires as long as they are halal. She is in the medical field, most of it has been in pediatrics, she has just now decided to change her specialty to oncology. Her current tuition expenses are over $50,000 dollars. If she dosen't want to pay them herself her husband is obligated to pay them. She is also still working and earns a very good income. She does not use any of her income for household expenses. What she uses it for is very much halal and she is very pleased with where it goes. But her husband supports her in all of her living needs. He pays for her cars, gasoline etc. She has no necessary expenses except for what she desires. Fortunatly her desires are very admirable and as I said her income all goes for a very halal purpose. It is very doubtful she would find that much freedom in a "normal" marriage.

Now with the hijab. No man has the right to force a woman to wear the hijab. My daughter wears it by choice and if you where to try to take it off of her, I would suspect you would have a broken arm. Her husband can not make her remove it when she goes to public meetings although on occasion he has told her it might be best to not wear it in some places. She will not take it off for any man. She says she will be killed as a Muslim, before she would take it off to hide the fact she is Muslim.

When she was married her first time and was not Muslim her husband did make her dress as he felt best to promote his business image. She also shared responsability for his bills. She was expected to help pay for their living expenses so that they could present the image of their social status. Then the physical and emotional abuse she suffered at his hands was beyond belief. She was a true prisoner to his whims and at his mercy for all things. It took a very serious incident for her to break free and be able to get a divorce to bring an end to the torment her good western marriage put her through.
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chris4336
02-14-2007, 05:47 PM
Cali dude - No one of us really knows WHY it is permitted for man to have 4 wives, but it is by Allah. I think each one of us has to find our own wisdom in it. I personally don't really agree with these explanations about arousal and sexual fufillment either. This Ayat was given, I believe, after the Battle of Badr, during which many Muslim men were killed. So there were lots of Muslim women, possibly with young children, but without husbands. How is a recently widowed woman with children supposed to support her family in those times? It would have been extremely difficult if not impossible for her. So it is my belief that Allah permitted a man having 4 wives as a way of helping to support widows. Remeber the Prophet (peace be upon him) had only one wife for 25 years, and then his marriages after that had either political or social reasons (ie: to help widows).

That being said, a Muslim woman always has the right to put in her marriage contract that her husband cannot take another wife. Then if he takes another wife, they will be divorced.

Also, I was a lot like you...very critical of the treatment of women in Islam. I urge you to listen to Brother Eesa, and think about your belief system and the fundamentals of Islam. Also please be very very careful NOT to confuse culture and Islam, which is something I was guilty of. Look into the life of the Prophet to see the real way Islam is supposed to be practiced.
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- Qatada -
02-14-2007, 06:01 PM
:salamext:


Is there actually any proof in any other religious scripture apart from the Quran which limits people to have 4 wives? :)
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cali dude
02-14-2007, 06:07 PM
chris, that's what I heard that Mohammad had multiple wives as many men were killed in a battle. But for some reason, polygamy among men continued for no good reason at all.

It shouldn't be both ways. Either men and women should be allowed to practice polygamy or no one, although no one being able to practice polygamy makes better sense. Why should a woman have to consent to her husband not having more than one wives? Why shouldn't it be automatic that a man can't have multiple wives just like a woman?
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chris4336
02-14-2007, 09:20 PM
Well what if there was another battle? I think if it happened once it might happen again.

Polygamy is an exception (with very strict requirements) NOT the rule in Islam. Like I said the Prophet had ONE wife for 25 years, and only after her death did he take other wives, and even then only for very specific reasons (not for his own "desires"). Throughout the Quran men and women are refered to as "pairs" and "partners." It is permitted, not encouraged.

I agree with you 100% that polygamy sometimes serves no good reason at all. I personally think taking a second wife, even after the objections of your first wife is not a great idea, but that is a whole other discussion that we have had on these boards before. Allah will judge us all on the day of judgement based on what is in our hearts, so its not really for me to say.
And again, a wife can always put in her marriage contract that her husband cannot take a second wife.

Maybe it would help if you looked at all the "inequalilties" in Islam that favor women? So men can have more than one wife, but women don't have to work ever. The man must provide everything for her and her children. She can request any amount of money be paid to her at the marriage, and that money is hers alone. Lets say she comes from a filthy rich family - her husband still have to provide everything for the household, even if she has millions of dollars in the bank. This is not "fair."

Or with the prayers - A man no matter what his job is still must attend Friday prayers in the masjid. Women have a choice, they can attend prayers in the mosque or pray somewhere else (at home or at work).

Or with parents - Islam teaches that Paradise is at the feet of your mother (doesn't mention the father). There are also a ton of hadiths on the rewards a woman gets during pregnancy, that man doesn't even have the chance to get.

I guess take from this what you will. My point was that some areas of Islam seem to favor men, while others seem to favor women. The point is that Allah made these rules and he knows the differences between men and women, and he has made rules that he knows will serve is best. Maybe they don't seem fair to me because I live in the US, and have my own money, and don't need a husband to provide for me. But a widow with 6 children somewhere else might think otherwise.
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Um_ahmad
02-14-2007, 10:18 PM
Islam is the most equal relegion i know of.
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Snowflake
02-15-2007, 01:07 AM
=cali dude;655198]Men not be able to have babies only proves that women are superior to men.
Women are superior? Do you think they made the baby without the help of a man? Fields cannot yield crops unless farmers sow the seeds.


Have you heard of something called maternity leave?
For a start, not everyone is entitled to maternity leave. Secondly it's not available in every country. And thirdly a woman will multiple husbands will probably be pregnant most of the time. So there's her ability to work and support her four husbands gone.



Originally Posted by nocturne
to simply put it. If a women were to marry a few men, and if she is to be pregnant. Would you know who the father is? (actually thinking about, nowadays u can find the lineage throught DNA tests).
DNA testing is not available in all the parts of the world. Even where it is, not everyone can afford it.


Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
I like the justification, No wonder it lures so many men to Islam. :D
I don't think so. It'd be easier to remain non muslim and have as many girl-friends/extra marital affairs as one wants. How many muslims/reverts do you know with four wives?



The permissability for polygamy is crystal clear in the Quran. If you read the verse below you'll notice that Allah commands men to marry only one if he fears he cannot deal with them justly. Therefore Islam actually restricts polygamy. There was no restriction on number of wives before islam. People of different beliefs still practice polygamy without restrictions today. Where the law forbids it, they just end up having extra marital affairs. Yet islam doesn't even allow polygamy for lustful desires. Only as a means to support women in need of protection/security.



And if you fear that you cannot act equitably towards orphans, then marry such women as seem good to you, two and three and four; but if you fear that you will not do justice (between them), then (marry) only one or what your right hands possess; this is more proper, that you may not deviate from the right course. (Quran 4:3)



Islam is a practical religion which provides solutions to all kinds social problems. It is not here to fulfil personal dreams and desires of those who submit to it. After the death of a man a woman is left to bring up her children alone with often no one to care for her or her children. What is the solution?

If she goes to work her children are left to fend for themselves. There's often very little if any discipline amongst such households as the mothers main concern is providing for her family. I've seen with my own eyes when mothers are out at work they're kids are out on the streets creating hell in the community. There's mothers out there doing 2-3 jobs just to keep a roof over her family's heads. Women have been known to turn to prostitution to supplement their income. What kind of life is that?

For a non muslim woman, having a boyfriend or remarrying isn't the solution either. By law he is not responsible for children of other men and often mistreats them. But in islam a man who marries a widow/divorcee is financially responsible for her and her children. Not only financially but in all matters of their welfare. Imagine how many social ills can be avoided if that happens.


It's a fact (reported in the Guardian) that the children of mothers who return to work full time in the years before they start school have slower emotional development and score less well in reading and maths tests, according to a study published by the Institute for Social and Economic Research. (Extracted from the full report.)[/


Islam is unique and wonderful in that it obliterates a woman from the burden and stresses of coping alone by allowing a man to take her into his care through the rules of polygamy.


Like I said before, a woman with 4 husbands would be pregnant most of her life, thus being unable to support them and their children. After childbirth her libido will be non existant if not low, thus being unable to cope with the sexual needs of four husbands.



Each year in March, Gallup measures the degree to which Americans are concerned about various U.S. domestic policy issues. While levels of concern can change from year to year, one finding remains constant: women tend to express higher degrees of worry than men do.



Therefore women won't even be able to cope on a psychological basis. Islam safeguards the interests of each person as an individual and as a part of society. No other religion has achieved the same and never will be able to do so. The wisdom behind Islamic teachings is simply indisputable.




Finally, I'm curious to know, as you seem very keen for women having the right to have four husbands, would you allow your wife to do the same?

peace.
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cali dude
02-15-2007, 04:32 PM
Well Chris and all,

As you can see polygamy works only for certain places, for certain people and in certain situation. God's word would work universally.


Originally Posted by Muslimah_Sis

Finally, I'm curious to know, as you seem very keen for women having the right to have four husbands, would you allow your wife to do the same?

peace.
Apparently you missed the whole point, I think polygamy is sick.
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Umar001
02-15-2007, 04:47 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Well Chris and all,

As you can see polygamy works only for certain places, for certain people and in certain situation. God's word would work universally.
WOuld be cool if you could provide an input to my reply I gave earlier if you have the time.

You state God's word would work universally, as Muslims we could not agree more.
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Woodrow
02-15-2007, 04:53 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Well Chris and all,

As you can see polygamy works only for certain places, for certain people and in certain situation. God's word would work universally.
The secret there is the word work. Sometimes for something to work, it can not be applied the same way in all places and at all times. This is the wisdom behind the conditions for polygamy. It can only work when those conditions are fulfilled.

If those conditions are not met it is forbidden. we are not permitted to decide when and where it can work, we are told that very clearly. This is not a matter and picking and choosing simply because we want it. We are permitted it only if we can fulfill the criteria, in fact there are situations under which it is obligatory even if we do not want it.

Allah's(swt) is applied universaly. What is said in one place applies in another. But, for something to be applied fairly universaly it has to be specificaly stated how it is applied. We are to feed the hungry also, does that mean we are to give an equal amount of food to each person in each place. Would it not be more sensible to give to each in accordance with their needs? That would mean a different amount for differen people in different times and places. A 50 pound 10 year old school girl in london is not going to have the same food requiremnts as a 200 pound 25 year old man living as a hunter in Alaska. Should they both be given an equal amount of food when they are hungry.
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cali dude
02-15-2007, 04:57 PM
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
WOuld be cool if you could provide an input to my reply I gave earlier if you have the time.

You state God's word would work universally, as Muslims we could not agree more.
I didn't read your entirely. Whatever I read, I don't think it's worth responding as my point should very clear.

You only agree with me that God's word would work universally. But the difference is that you believe in forcing what you believe to be God's word universally and what I am saying is that God's word would naturally work universally. Nobody would ever need to force God's word anywhere. God's word would naturally make sense universally. Since polygamy doesn't universally make sense, it can't be considered God's word.
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cali dude
02-15-2007, 05:05 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
The secret there is the word work. Sometimes for something to work, it can not be applied the same way in all places and at all times. This is the wisdom behind the conditions for polygamy. It can only work when those conditions are fulfilled.

If those conditions are not met it is forbidden. we are not permitted to decide when and where it can work, we are told that very clearly. This is not a matter and picking and choosing simply because we want it. We are permitted it only if we can fulfill the criteria, in fact there are situations under which it is obligatory even if we do not want it.
Woodrow Sahib, just to let you know that you are probably one of the few I respect here.

It shouldn't that polygamy is allowed unless certain conditions are not met...

It should that monogamy is the only way unless there is a special need...

Do you see what I saying? Polygamy should have no priority at all. Monogamy should have the priority unless there is no other way.

Although I believe in living in God's will. I accept what God (not humans) does. So I wouldn't practice polygamy regardless what happens.
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Umar001
02-15-2007, 05:21 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
I didn't read your entirely. Whatever I read, I don't think it's worth responding as my point should very clear.
Intersting stance.

Originally Posted by cali dude
You only agree with me that God's word would work universally. But the difference is that you believe in forcing what you believe to be God's word universally and what I am saying is that God's word would naturally work universally. Nobody would ever need to force God's word anywhere. God's word would naturally make sense universally. Since polygamy doesn't universally make sense, it can't be considered God's word.
Well you see this is why it would be logically needed for us to understand under which presumptions we are working.

You claim that everyone would be naturally inclined to everything in God's law, whilst that might be acceptable for someone who does not hold the view that there is any evil entity, it is totally illogical for anyone who holds the view that there is.

We both know society sculps and shapes everyone, so whilst homosexuality was totally againt morality of the public many decades back, it is not more accepted, so according to your logic Judaism Christianity and Islam, might have been acceptable at a time where everyone agreed homosexality was wrong but now where society is opposite that then the religions are wrong.

Which would mean that God's word would be suseptible to acceptance only if the society which was prevalent was in accordance with it. Which is the most Illogical theory ever.

Edit: then again I wont expect an answer anyhow since you seem to hand pick posts which will only send you in circles.

Eesa :)
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cali dude
02-15-2007, 05:33 PM
Homosexuality is as good or bad as heterosexuality. It depends what's important to you in sexuality. If you have sex to have pleasure out of it, then you do whatever you have pleasure out of. But if you have sex to have kids, then we all know homosexuality doesn't make sense.

So if you have sex to have kids, then you better not have sex just for the pleasure of it. But if you are in heterosexual relationship just for the pleasure of it, you can't consider homosexuality to be wrong as I assume, this is what gives them the pleasure.
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zaki.aumeerudy
02-15-2007, 05:36 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Today, it has been proven that women are equally capable as men.

Then how come, Islam doesn't provide with equality? For example, a man is allowed to beat his wife. A man can have many wives even though it's proven that women can equally capable of earning as much as men, in some cases even more than men. Then how come a woman isn't allowed to have many husbands if she can afford to do so?
Good Question that has ben answered to an hindu girl

If u have four husband ,who is the father of the child to be born ???
what will u four man do when she has her period ,
A man is not allowed to beat his wife but to correct her,have a look at my past quotes
A man and a woman is not equal
A man cannot bear child ,a woman can and it is very hard
the physical force of a man is greater than a woman
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Abdul-Raouf
02-15-2007, 05:39 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah

Also, a women can not have more than one husband for the simply reason that it would be traumatic on those involved to try to figure out who is the father other child.

JUST THIS REASON IS ENOUGH...... FOR CALI
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cali dude
02-15-2007, 05:40 PM
zaki.aumeerudy.

As you may have noticed, the discussion has gone past your answer.
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Umar001
02-15-2007, 05:41 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Homosexuality is as good or bad as heterosexuality. It depends what's important to you in sexuality. If you have sex to have pleasure out of it, then you do whatever you have pleasure out of. But if you have sex to have kids, then we all know homosexuality doesn't make sense.

So if you have sex to have kids, then you better not have sex just for the pleasure of it. But if you are in heterosexual relationship just for the pleasure of it, you can't consider homosexuality to be wrong as I assume, this is what gives them the pleasure.

Well then if we go by that then you must agree that all religions which have in their understanding of Gods word that homosexuality is wrong, then are all fasle since homosexuality is not universally accepted as wrong.

There's the fallacy, because if there was any religion universally accepted then it would mean there would be no other religions.
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Woodrow
02-15-2007, 05:41 PM
It shouldn't that polygamy is allowed unless certain conditions are not met...

It should that monogamy is the only way unless there is a special need...
That is understandable. Now with that said in order for that to be universaly applied the law would have to Written in a manner like this:

the only legal marriage is monogamy, monogamy must be followed except under the following conditions:
A
B
C
etc.

Now since a negative can not be all inclusive the listing of exclusions would become almost limitless. Special conditions unique to an individual could arise that none of us can forsee. For the list to cover all of the excluions us Humans would find the law incomprehensible.

Do you see what I saying? Polygamy should have no priority at all. Monogamy should have the priority unless there is no other way.
Pologomy is not given preference over Monogamy. In fact there are no restrictions as to who can have a Monogamous marriage. But, there are very specific rulings as to who can have a polygamous ruling and under what conditions. the reality is the ruling favors monogamy over polygamy. Polygamy is discourged for most conditions while monogamy is permitted under all conditions. (That is defining marriage as the relationship between Male and Female etc, etc,) so in order to favor Monogamy the best and most understandable way is to state the specific conditions under which polygamy is permitted.

Although I believe in living in God's will. I accept what God (not humans) does. So I wouldn't practice polygamy regardless what happens.
We also believe in living God's(swt) will and not what humans do.

You would not practice polygamy regardless of what happens?

Hypothetical situations:

God(swt) sends the angel Gabriel down and specificaly tells you to become married to a certain man and it will be a polygamous relationship



there is final the ultimate Nuclear war. You 5 other women and a 90 year old man are the only survivors. It is obvious that in order for the human race to survive there will have to be as many children born as soon as possible. Since it takes 9 months for each one and it is doubtfull that the old guy will be around for very many 9 month waits it only makes since that each women has as many children as possible in the shortest time possible.

Granted, neither of those situations are likely to happen. But, never say you would never do or say anything until after your life has ended and you have passed all of the conditions of what will happen in your life time.
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AvarAllahNoor
02-15-2007, 05:47 PM
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi

Well then if we go by that then you must agree that all religions which have in their understanding of Gods word that homosexuality is wrong, then are all fasle since homosexuality is not universally accepted as wrong.

There's the fallacy, because if there was any religion universally accepted then it would mean there would be no other religions.
I've yet to see in the the SGGS that Homosexuality is wrong!
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cali dude
02-15-2007, 05:48 PM
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi

Well then if we go by that then you must agree that all religions which have in their understanding of Gods word that homosexuality is wrong, then are all fasle since homosexuality is not universally accepted as wrong.

There's the fallacy, because if there was any religion universally accepted then it would mean there would be no other religions.
Did you ever try to find out why these religions say that homosexuality is wrong? Are they saying it because they believe sexuality is to be used only for the reproduction. These religions also believe that sex without marriage is wrong. So as soon as you start using sexuality for pleasure purpose, you can't say that you are allowed to have pleasure as you wish and someone else is not.
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cali dude
02-15-2007, 05:50 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
I've yet to see in the the SGGS that Homosexuality is wrong!
Please don't bring Guru Granth Sahib into everything. Guru Granth Sahib is too sacred to be discussed just about everywhere.
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Umar001
02-15-2007, 06:00 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
I've yet to see in the the SGGS that Homosexuality is wrong!
Well thats amazing, and as you noticed, or I hope you did, I mentioned:

Well then if we go by that then you must agree that all religions which have in their understanding of Gods word that homosexuality is wrong, then are all fasle since homosexuality is not universally accepted as wrong.

But if you want I can look through the standard teachings one day and point something I or others might disagree with :)


Originally Posted by cali dude
Did you ever try to find out why these religions say that homosexuality is wrong? Are they saying it because they believe sexuality is to be used only for the reproduction. These religions also believe that sex without marriage is wrong. So as soon as you start using sexuality for pleasure purpose, you can't say that you are allowed to have pleasure as you wish and someone else is not.

Both Christianity and Islam do talk about marriage and the off shot of marriage i.e. sex. Being for passion as well as reproduction.

Yet both also condemn homosexuality, so your point still doesnt stand.
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AvarAllahNoor
02-15-2007, 06:05 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Please don't bring Guru Granth Sahib into everything. Guru Granth Sahib is too sacred to be discussed just about everywhere.
Why should it not be brought in? It's relevant and it's a fact. - It's the reason it was compiled to show what it states, not to be kept in Sikh circles away from the world!
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cali dude
02-15-2007, 06:07 PM
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
Well thats amazing, and as you noticed, or I hope you did, I mentioned:

Well then if we go by that then you must agree that all religions which have in their understanding of Gods word that homosexuality is wrong, then are all fasle since homosexuality is not universally accepted as wrong.

But if you want I can look through the standard teachings one day and point something I or others might disagree with :)
Guru Granth Sahib is not about telling people how to live their lives. Guru Granth Sahib is about gaining spiritual wisdom. That's why you can't compare Guru Granth Sahib to any other book.

Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
Both Christianity and Islam do talk about marriage and the off shot of marriage i.e. sex. Being for passion as well as reproduction.

Yet both also condemn homosexuality, so your point still doesnt stand.
Do they tell you why homosexuality is wrong?
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AvarAllahNoor
02-15-2007, 06:08 PM
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
Well thats amazing, and as you noticed, or I hope you did, I mentioned:

Well then if we go by that then you must agree that all religions which have in their understanding of Gods word that homosexuality is wrong, then are all fasle since homosexuality is not universally accepted as wrong.

But if you want I can look through the standard teachings one day and point something I or others might disagree with :)





Both Christianity and Islam do talk about marriage and the off shot of marriage i.e. sex. Being for passion as well as reproduction.

Yet both also condemn homosexuality, so your point still doesnt stand.
Wrong according to you. or maybe Chrsitians. Does not mean you're infalliable!
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Umar001
02-15-2007, 06:09 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Guru Granth Sahib is not about telling people how to live their lives. Guru Granth Sahib is about gaining spiritual wisdom. That's why you can't compare Guru Granth Sahib to any other book.
Well look at what you stated:

Originally Posted by cali dude
Well Chris and all,

As you can see polygamy works only for certain places, for certain people and in certain situation. God's word would work universally.

So if you hold your scripture to be the word of God it should stand for all time should it not? Regardless of whether it is or it is not a law book.

Anyhow, you see, the problem you have is that your working with alot of presumptions and you have not justified why you have them so any logical type of reasoning would be hard to be conducted.



Originally Posted by cali dude
Do they tell you why homosexuality is wrong?
There is a command that it is wrong. I do not believe or recall any reason, which means it is genrally wrong otherwise we would have had a statement like 'do not commit homosexuality if you are trying for kids but if you like pleasure do it'


Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Wrong according to you. or maybe Chrsitians. Does not mean you're infalliable!

I dont undersand the above please bare with me and be patient Eesa.
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cali dude
02-15-2007, 06:12 PM
By the way, I am no way in a position to comment on Guru Granth Sahib. So, I could be wrong but this is how it makes sense to me. Guru Granth Sahib is spiritual experiences of gurus and saints. Guru Granth Sahib is not to force something onto people. Since Guru Granth Sahib was written by people who obviously had direct revelation with God, following Guru Granth Sahib, one could become spiritually wise person, although revelation can only be achieved with God's grace...
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Snowflake
02-15-2007, 06:15 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Well Chris and all,

As you can see polygamy works only for certain places, for certain people and in certain situation. God's word would work universally.
Apparently you missed the whole point, I think polygamy is sick.
How did I miss the point? You questioned why women can't have four husbands. I gave you explicit facts on the difficulties this would create.
You agree that polygamy can work in certain situations. Well, that's what it's there for. Certain situations only. It's not a rule but an exception.
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Umar001
02-15-2007, 06:17 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
By the way, I am no way in a position to comment on Guru Granth Sahib. So, I could be wrong but this is how it makes sense to me. Guru Granth Sahib is spiritual experiences of gurus and saints. Guru Granth Sahib is not to force something onto people. Since Guru Granth Sahib was written by people who obviously had direct revelation with God, following Guru Granth Sahib, one could become spiritually wise person, although revelation can only be achieved with God's grace...

Well then again, explain it to me logically, that God would send revelation but not tell us how to live as a nation?

So God just lets us be confused as to go about our daily dealings??
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starfortress
02-15-2007, 06:22 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Instead of going through all of this, can some answer simple question?

If a man is allowed to have many wives and if women are equal to men, are women allowed to have many husbands as well? :-)
Women capability to get pregnant for a nine month is a clear liability for them to have a more than one husband isn't it,a women also have a menstruation period once a month(i guess)-by a biology can she have 4 husband at the same time? :exhausted
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AvarAllahNoor
02-15-2007, 06:22 PM
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi

Well then again, explain it to me logically, that God would send revelation but not tell us how to live as a nation?

So God just lets us be confused as to go about our daily dealings??

I think cali is a little misinformed - It's true the Guru Granth is for the whole of humanity, but if we read with Sharda (devotion) you can find rules to lead a better spiritual life. It's not explicit, but it states those that want to seek the truth should read it. And the Hukamnams (orders) prove this.
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cali dude
02-15-2007, 06:29 PM
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi

Well then again, explain it to me logically, that God would send revelation but not tell us how to live as a nation?

So God just lets us be confused as to go about our daily dealings??
Once someone becomes spiritually wise, s/he will naturally live a good life, won't need to be forced to live in certain way...
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cali dude
02-15-2007, 06:37 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow

We also believe in living God's(swt) will and not what humans do.
Except there could be a difference between what you mean and what I am saying. You might be referring to the book as God's will and I am referring to things happen in daily life.

Originally Posted by Woodrow
You would not practice polygamy regardless of what happens?

Hypothetical situations:

God(swt) sends the angel Gabriel down and specificaly tells you to become married to a certain man and it will be a polygamous relationship
I am sorry, not familiar with angel Gabriel. But I know God would never instruct me to have polygamous relationship...

Originally Posted by Woodrow
there is final the ultimate Nuclear war. You 5 other women and a 90 year old man are the only survivors. It is obvious that in order for the human race to survive there will have to be as many children born as soon as possible. Since it takes 9 months for each one and it is doubtfull that the old guy will be around for very many 9 month waits it only makes since that each women has as many children as possible in the shortest time possible.

Granted, neither of those situations are likely to happen. But, never say you would never do or say anything until after your life has ended and you have passed all of the conditions of what will happen in your life time.
First of all how likely is it that there would be only 5 women and a man left in this world? But if it's God's will for human race to vanish, then let it be...
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cali dude
02-15-2007, 06:47 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Why should it not be brought in? It's relevant and it's a fact. - It's the reason it was compiled to show what it states, not to be kept in Sikh circles away from the world!
As you know, Guru Granth Sahib is too sacred for us. We don't parkash Guru Granth Sahib just about anywhere. Then why should we unnecessarily post what Guru Granth Sahib says here?
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Woodrow
02-15-2007, 06:51 PM
You might be referring to the book as God's will and I am referring to things happen in daily life.
As a Muslim I believe all things happen in accordance with God's(swt) will. So we may be very similar in that view.
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Umar001
02-15-2007, 06:55 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Once someone becomes spiritually wise, s/he will naturally live a good life, won't need to be forced to live in certain way...

Yes but that does not respond to the rest of the people are not spiritually wise.

Your telling me God sent revelation and has left us no way to be civil with each other unles we all become spiritually wise.

You mean to tell me God thought we would all be spirtiaully wise but was mistake.

From my understanding this is like me saying to my kids,

Children, the house is under your control, but I will leave you no regulations and rulings but I expect you all to just be good, so I wont tell you the fire department's number, because I only expect you lot to be good and spiritually good


So I wonder if child services would let such a person be a father.


Originally Posted by cali dude
I am sorry, not familiar with angel Gabriel. But I know God would never instruct me to have polygamous relationship...
How do you know? Because of your understandin which is shaped by society and other influences, is that understanding correct, well I wonder if your open minded enough to rationally test it.

Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor

I think cali is a little misinformed - It's true the Guru Granth is for the whole of humanity, but if we read with Sharda (devotion) you can find rules to lead a better spiritual life. It's not explicit, but it states those that want to seek the truth should read it. And the Hukamnams (orders) prove this.

No worries we all make mistakes.. I do too.

So wait, the Sikh religion does have what it claims to be divine rulings and regulation?
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AvarAllahNoor
02-15-2007, 07:34 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
As you know, Guru Granth Sahib is too sacred for us. We don't parkash Guru Granth Sahib just about anywhere. Then why should we unnecessarily post what Guru Granth Sahib says here?
Yes Khalsa ji, but Guru Nanak took the Bani all over the world. So it's our duty to educate others using verses to show the uniquness of Allahs message! - Nobody is drinking sharab or doing beahdbhi are they? It's the net! :smile:
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AvarAllahNoor
02-15-2007, 07:37 PM
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi

So wait, the Sikh religion does have what it claims to be divine rulings and regulation?[/B]
Read it and see what it holds! :smile: It's a message for al mankind. Stating what is acceptable by God!
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Pygoscelis
02-15-2007, 09:14 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
So, the point you raise is baseless, you expect the wife to earn money to take care of the husband? That is not how it works, the husband is the one who must take care of the wife
How repugnantly sexist. If the wife is more educated and has more opportunity for a better job and wants to work, there is no shame in the husband being a house husband and staying home to raise the kids and mind the house (like a traditional wife would do).

Imagine a woman doctor who earns a small fortune marries a male factory worker who earns minimum wage. It is fair to you that the man be required to provide for the woman and any offspring and the woman horde her entire fortune for herself?
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Pygoscelis
02-15-2007, 09:17 PM
Between secular humanism and islam I don't see Islam having the upper hand. But between Islam and Christianity may be another story completely. And lets face it, atheists are the vast minority in the west. It is mostly Christians who make these claims about Islam being "sexist".

The bible clearly states that women are to honour and obey men as men are to honour and obey the Lord. Is there anything similar in the Quran?
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- Qatada -
02-15-2007, 09:17 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
How repugnantly sexist. If the wife is more educated and has more opportunity for a better job and wants to work, there is no shame in the husband being a house husband and staying home to raise the kids and mind the house (like a traditional wife would do).

Imagine a woman doctor who earns a small fortune marries a male factory worker who earns minimum wage. It is fair to you that the man be required to provide for the woman and any offspring and the woman horde her entire fortune for herself?

Or how about the woman who gets married to a guy - they have kids, the guy runs off with another woman. And the woman has to lookafter the children herself, while the husband enjoys himself.


That's so common in society today, yet that's not sexist is it?
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Pygoscelis
02-15-2007, 09:26 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Or how about the woman who gets married to a guy - they have kids, the guy runs off with another woman. And the woman has to lookafter the children herself, while the husband enjoys himself.


That's so common in society today, yet that's not sexist is it?
Meanwhile the husband is ordered to pay alimony and child support. And so is any man who simply LIVED with the woman and her children for a time and then left (even though the children are not his. What an insane provision in a law).

Husbands who run off and DON'T pay child support/alimony are known as "deadbeat dads", are frowned on by society, and are chased by the legal system.

If anything secular society has backlashed too strongly in the other direction. Women were very much opressed, and to some degree still are, in western society under Christian rule. But now there are a lot of nutty laws on the books blatantly sexist in the favour of women. This is a historical backlash though, and will likely subside after an adjustment period.
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One Man Army
02-15-2007, 10:58 PM
First Mehla:
From woman, man is born; within woman, man is conceived; to woman he is engaged and married.
Woman becomes his friend; through woman, the future generations come.
When his woman dies, he seeks another woman; to woman he is bound.
So why call her bad? From her, kings are born.
From woman, woman is born; without woman, there would be no one at all.
O Nanak, only the True Lord is without a woman.
That mouth which praises the Lord continually is blessed and beautiful.
O Nanak, those faces shall be radiant in the Court of the True Lord. ||

This is why i am a Sikh. this is why i love my Guru.....

this is how high status and equal women are put in sikhi.. not to even mention what women have done for the sikh religion..
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
02-16-2007, 12:09 AM
Spiritual Status of Women

The Qur'an categorically states that men and women who practice the principle of Islam will receive equal reward for their efforts.

'Surely for men who submit to Allah and for women who submit to Allah, for believing men and for believing women , for devout men and devout women, for truthful men and truthful women, for steadfast men and steadfast women, for humble men and humble women, for charitable men and charitable women, for fasting men and fasting women, for men who guard their chastity and women who guard their chastity, for men who remember Allah much and for women who remember Allah much, for all of them Allah has prepared forgiveness and a mighty reward.'

At another juncture, Allah says, 'Whosoever performs good deeds, whether male or female and is a believer, We shall surely grant him a peaceful and tranquil life, and We will certainly reward them for the best of what they did.'

And yet another Aayat says, 'And whosoever does deeds of righteousness, whether male or female, and is a believer, they will enter Heaven and not the least injustice will be done to them.'

Each of the five pillars of Islam is as important for women as for men, and there is no differenciation in their reward.

Intellectual Status

The Holy Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) said, 'The searching of knowledge is incumbent for every Muslim (male and female).'

Every boy or girl, man or woman should pursue his/her education as far as it is possible. One of the main aims of acquiring knowledge in Islam is to become Allah-conscious. In the history of Islam you will find that there were women who were narrators of Hadith, mystics, scholars, writers, poets and teachers, in their own right. They utilised their knowledge within certain precepts of Islam.

Look at Hadhrat Aaisha (Radhiallaahu Ánha: her intellect and outstanding memory. More than two thousand Ahaadith are reported by her and she is regarded as one of the best teachers of Hadith. Shaykha Nafisa who was such a great authority on Hadith that Imaam Shaaf'ee (RA) sat in her circle. The famous mystic, Rabia al-Adawiyya (Basria) was also a woman.

There are numerous other women who are held in the highest respect by the Muslim world.

Relation Between Man and Wife

Allah Ta'ala says in the Noble Qur'an, 'And among His signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that you may dwell in tranquility with them,and He has put love and mercy between your hearts. Verily in it are signs for those who ponder.'

This is a very apt definition of the relationship between man and woman. They are not bound together only by a physical relationship but by love and mercy. This definition and description comprises mutual care, consideration, respect and affection.

The Qur'an states, 'They are garments for you and you are garments for them.'

As a garment gives protection, warmth, comfort and decency, so too a husband and wife offer each other intimacy, comfort and protection from committing adultery.

Rights and Obligations

The Holy Qur'an states, 'Men are maintainers of women with the bounties which Allah has bestowed more abundantly on some of them than others; and with what they may spend out of their possessions.'

Man has full responsibility for the maintenance of his family. This is not only a moral but also a Shari'ah obligation. The wife is responsible for the care of her home and welfare of her family. She may express her views and make suggestions on all matters but the best role she can play in keeping the marital free intact and strong is to recognise her husband as the person responsible for the running of the affairs of the family and to obey him even if his judgment is not acceptable to her provided he does not go beyond the bounds of Shari'ah. This is the meaning of obedience in the context of marriage in Islam. It is the recognition of the role of the husband as the head of the family unit.

The Holy Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) said, 'The best woman is she who, when you look at her you feel pleased, and when you direct her she obeys. She protects your right and keeps her chastity when you are absent.'

Man is expected to show consideration to all women. The Islamic opinion is that a woman be spared from all struggles and worries so that she can give her full attention to the making of a home.

The Mothers Rights

The Holy Qur;an states, 'Don't even utter 'oh' before your parents!'

Hadhrat Abu Hurayra (Radhiallaahu Ánhu) says that a man asked the Holy Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam), 'Who is worthier of my good treatment?' The Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) replied, 'Your mother (which he repeated three times), then your father."

In another Hadith, the Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) says, 'O people! listen! Allah Most High commands you to treat your mothers well. Listen again, that Allah Most High ordered you to be good to your mother, and thereafter to your father.'

The Holy Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) also said, 'Paradise is beneath the feet of your mother.'

The Wife's Rights

The treatment expected from the husband, whether or not he is on good terms with his wife, is clearly laid down in the Qur'an.

Live with them in kindness, even if you dislike them, perhaps you dislike something in which Allah has placed much good.'

Even if divorce is decided upon, the good treatment referred to before is still required - The Qur'an says, 'Then keep them in all decency or part them decently. It is not lawful to take anything you have given them.'

The Holy Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) said, 'O Muslims! I command you to behave well with your wives because woman has been created from the left rib of man. If you try to make it straight it will break, and if you allow to let it remain in its original condition, it will remain crooked. Obey my order and live a good life by treating your wives well.'

In another Hadith, it is mentioned, 'The best amongst you are those who are kindest to their wives.'

In another Hadith, 'The best charity is that, a man spends his money on his wife and children.'

Inheritance

Over fourteen hundred years ago, Islam made woman a share-holder in the wealth of her husband, father, brother, sons and daughters. When she is young, her father is responsible for her maintenance and after marriage her husband has to maintain her.

On the other hand the man has to bear the responsibility for himself, his wife and children and parents. This is why the man gets double the share of a woman in inheritance. He has much more responsibilities. Besides, in a way, the woman gets double advantage: as a daughter she gets a share in her father's wealth and as a wife in her husband's wealth also. It is therefore, worth pondering how minutely has Islam considered the differences between man and woman.
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Malaikah
02-16-2007, 12:21 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
How repugnantly sexist. If the wife is more educated and has more opportunity for a better job and wants to work, there is no shame in the husband being a house husband and staying home to raise the kids and mind the house (like a traditional wife would do).

Imagine a woman doctor who earns a small fortune marries a male factory worker who earns minimum wage. It is fair to you that the man be required to provide for the woman and any offspring and the woman horde her entire fortune for herself?
There is nothing sexist about it. That is how it works- division of responsibility. I didn't say that the wife can't give any money to help out, in fact, if she does, it is considered like she is giving charity, I just said no one can force her to do it.

In the scenario you mentioned, the wife obviously needs a lesson or to on what marriage is about. I can't imagine anyone being that selfish.
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wilberhum
02-16-2007, 12:26 AM
I can't imagine anyone being that selfish.
Having a good job is selfish. But only for a woman, right?
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
02-16-2007, 12:29 AM
^^Dude, she was talking about this

It is fair to you that the man be required to provide for the woman and any offspring and the woman horde her entire fortune for herself?

Obivously it would be a great thing if she helps out her husband if such a scenario occurs.

I personally would love to live a simple life. The more materialistic stuff u get into the more problems. Buying things and then regretting it later when your trying to pay it off. It's not worth it. That is when your doing monthly bills etc.
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Malaikah
02-16-2007, 12:38 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Having a good job is selfish. But only for a woman, right?
What are you talking about?
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syilla
02-16-2007, 01:03 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Between secular humanism and islam I don't see Islam having the upper hand. But between Islam and Christianity may be another story completely. And lets face it, atheists are the vast minority in the west. It is mostly Christians who make these claims about Islam being "sexist".

The bible clearly states that women are to honour and obey men as men are to honour and obey the Lord. Is there anything similar in the Quran?
Have you not read the 1st page? :rolleyes:
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syilla
02-16-2007, 01:08 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
How repugnantly sexist. If the wife is more educated and has more opportunity for a better job and wants to work, there is no shame in the husband being a house husband and staying home to raise the kids and mind the house (like a traditional wife would do).

Imagine a woman doctor who earns a small fortune marries a male factory worker who earns minimum wage. It is fair to you that the man be required to provide for the woman and any offspring and the woman horde her entire fortune for herself?

who says woman in islam can't have a better job and wants to work?

But in islam...that is her money (salary), she can do what she wants. She can choose not to provide. But if you are a wife, won't you help your husband?

The problem is here, Islam would not tolerate a husband is LAZY and doesn't wants to work and wants to stay home. Can you imagine what will happen to our economy if most of the guys opt to stay at home and not wanting to work.
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Abdul-Raouf
02-16-2007, 01:26 AM
When the world nears to the end of days(Qayamat)... the % of women population will become twice as men....

this will suit men to have more than one wife.... but the otherway its ..%&$&$3..
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Pygoscelis
02-16-2007, 08:18 AM
Originally Posted by syilla
But in islam...that is her money (salary), she can do what she wants.
Which is what I am saying is blatantly sexist and down right ugly. The men are obliged to provide but the women are not, even where the women are in the better position financially. This is just plain immoral.
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syilla
02-16-2007, 08:46 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Which is what I am saying is blatantly sexist and down right ugly. The men are obliged to provide but the women are not, even where the women are in the better position financially. This is just plain immoral.
i should create a poll and ask the guys whether it is blatantly sexist? :coolalien

What about pregnant? do you think it is sexist too?
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Pygoscelis
02-16-2007, 09:29 AM
Originally Posted by syilla
i should create a poll and ask the guys whether it is blatantly sexist? :coolalien

What about pregnant? do you think it is sexist too?
It IS sexist, by definition. That is not debatable. You are treating one gender differently than the other. That is sexism. The only question is whether it is justified or moral. I say it isn't. Muslims here seem to think it is.

Pregnancy is biology. Not relevant. And not something we have any power over. We don't choose women to get pregnant instead of men. They just do.
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Malaikah
02-16-2007, 09:36 AM
It isn't sexism, it is called division of responsibilities.
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TABS19
02-16-2007, 10:01 AM
I'm sorry to say I personally don't agree with mutliple wives (or husbands for that matter). One is more than enough...I'm sure men and women will both agree.

However, I am intrigued to know how many muslims men actually do provide for their wives. In my previous line of work I come across more Muslim single mother's. I have come to realise that some people abuse the rules of religion for their own self gain. In UK as you cannot legally marry more than 1 wife, the one's not recognised as lawful wives are claiming as single parents.
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Abdul Fattah
02-16-2007, 11:19 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
It IS sexist, by definition. That is not debatable. You are treating one gender differently than the other. That is sexism. The only question is whether it is justified or moral. I say it isn't. Muslims here seem to think it is.

Pregnancy is biology. Not relevant. And not something we have any power over. We don't choose women to get pregnant instead of men. They just do.
I think your defenition of sexism is off. Sexism is a form of discrimination. And discrimination is when you treat one as inferior to another. When two people are different in charesteristics, like one can get pregnant the other can't, then that is not discrimination. Discrimination is that you would see one of the two as inferior and/or treat them as such. But that also doesn't mean you have to treat all people 100% equal. Because there's a big difference between treating to people differently, and treating one person inferior to another. In fact if you treat two different people equally, that can be discrimination to.

Example: if a gym teacher grades a boy that walks with a limb by the same standards of the other boys in a marathon, his equal treatment can be considered a discrimination of his handicap.

I'm not saying one gender is handicap compared to the other. But each gender has its own characteristics that make it good at one thing and bad at another.
Eventually if you want to treat both as beings equal in worth a different approach on both of 'm is unavoidable.
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F.Y.
02-16-2007, 11:53 AM
^True. The term I think you're trying to find is 'equity'.

Peace
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zaki.aumeerudy
02-16-2007, 06:12 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Which is what I am saying is blatantly sexist and down right ugly. The men are obliged to provide but the women are not, even where the women are in the better position financially. This is just plain immoral.

The objectives of islaam is to make humanity serve god
Allah has the power to give you a better position if this is good for u or not
we do not care whether women has a better position.there is nothign to be ashamed of it . All working women do serve their husband because they follow a way of life to attain their final objective . The pleasur of god and Jannat
All wives do help their husband when in financial difficulty though they are not obliged to
tHE PROPHET SAYS That awoman is married for four reasons
one of them is her financial position (richness) .The law provide a protection from guys that want to marry woman just for their money .This is very common today . Is n`t that a good law ?
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*charisma*
02-16-2007, 07:09 PM
Assalamu Alaikum and Greetings,

When it comes to men and women's physical attributes, whether it pertains to religion or society, men and women are not equal no matter how you want to go about it. Men are built differently and women are builty differently to hold different tasks through out their lifetime.

In Islam however, there's equity. Based on the woman's physical attributes she is assigned to roles that she can handle by being a woman and same with the man. If she wanted to work on something that is usually stereotyped as a "man's job" she may do so as long as it doens't conflict with her acting like a man or looking like one and as long as it's not a more sinful environment for her to do so and same with the a man; However, it is not obligatory for them to do so if they don't want to, its free-choiced.

In Islam, we aren't judged by what we can do and what we can't. Whether our duties to Allah are "equal" to the opposite gender or unequal. Our duties are to worship Allah fully and not make it difficult upon ourselves to do so. If you're going to constantly go, "Why aren't women allowed to marry 4 men" would that really help your faith?

A woman's sin is equal to a man's sin if its the same sin. A woman's deed is equal to a man's deed if its for the same thing. A woman has to pray 5 times a day and so does a man. Both have to give charity and do good. Our time on earth, in this world, is measured through deeds and sins, and not by our physical attributes, but rather how we use them.

Islam puts limits and guidelines on everything. If you're not Muslim, you have to suffer the label of society.

What does society think of a woman who has more than one partner?

Would a man even allow his wife have more than one partner other than him?

Men are more jealous and protective of their woman, no? Yup, even more
than women are. This isn't an opinion, its a fact.

I'm not saying there aren't women who may not get jealous, but generally they are more accepting.

Secondly, I think any woman would rather have her husband marry another wife rather than have him cheat on her. If a woman married another man or more than one man, she would make her life a million times more difficult than it would already be. She won't know who the father is right away. If she wanted to find out, she'd have to pay money out of her own pocket. The man could leave her and not support the child because he wont know who it's for, and she won't be able to sexually satisfy them "equally" if she has her periods and pregnancies and all that. Eventually she'll become useless and the men would want another wife. Aha!

But there are many other scenarios we could imagine. Rather than living in what if, lets shut up and live with what is. People used to live in "what if" and it was a life chaos. Those that do live by "what ifs" are deviant and are probably in jail or something.

fi aman Allah
w'salaam
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duskiness
02-16-2007, 07:15 PM
Originally Posted by steve
And discrimination is when you treat one as inferior to another.
discrimination is when you treat people in the same situation differently or in different situation in the same manner.
It seems to me that there is too much deal about "sex characteristic". I would agree that there is something like this, but -for me- it is overemphasized in this discussion. There are really few things women can do as good as men and men as good as women.
And when we speak about "women" -we speak 50% of people in the world!!! They all can be the same...

ps: Gent - nice city :D
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
02-16-2007, 07:18 PM
They can be the same, but in character and deeds. You cant be the same in everything. Men and women can be "fair" but not equal.
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zaki.aumeerudy
02-16-2007, 07:27 PM
Originally Posted by syilla
who says woman in islam can't have a better job and wants to work?

But in islam...that is her money (salary), she can do what she wants. She can choose not to provide. But if you are a wife, won't you help your husband?

The problem is here, Islam would not tolerate a husband is LAZY and doesn't wants to work and wants to stay home. Can you imagine what will happen to our economy if most of the guys opt to stay at home and not wanting to work.
u right
that is happening actually in my country ,we have no place for man ,woman are getting most of the higher job whether engineering ,administration,sales,etc ,they have such a smart smile that they rapidly become the mistress of our bosses ,the increase in criminality ,theft is very high now becose most of the guys stay at home ,they dont have such a smile a and small mini-jupe where u everything of her private parts could be seen
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Abdul Fattah
02-16-2007, 08:03 PM
Originally Posted by duskiness
discrimination is when you treat people in the same situation differently or in different situation in the same manner.
It seems to me that there is too much deal about "sex characteristic". I would agree that there is something like this, but -for me- it is overemphasized in this discussion. There are really few things women can do as good as men and men as good as women.
And when we speak about "women" -we speak 50% of people in the world!!! They all can be the same...
Well, in a way you're saying the same thing as I am saying. You say:
discrimination is when you treat people in the same situation differently or in different situation in the same manner.
But when you have two persons with different characteristics who are in the same circumstances as the same "situation", or do these characteristics amount to the situation?

Simple example:
If a guy hits a woman, is that the same situation as a woman hitting a guy.
(think of a strong guy and a weak woman, I know it's a stereotype, but for the sake of argument)
This clearly shows that dealing with both cases equally is unfair.

As for sex-characteristics as you call it, they are not as rare as you claim. Of course woman and men will be able to do most things that the other can. But that doesn't mean one gender is better at a certain thing.

There are so many difference that we have only begin to understand. Take the eye for example. Scientist have recently discovered that men and woman have different eyes. Woman's eyes generate a more broader and 2 dimensional view, whereas men's eyes have a more focused 2 dimensional view. This makes it easier for woman to have an eye for details and enables them to multi task easier, whereas men in general are better 3 dimensional thinking. And the changes don't stop there.


ps: Gent - nice city :D
Alleszinds gezelliger dan Antwerpen :D
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Snowflake
02-17-2007, 09:39 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
How repugnantly sexist. If the wife is more educated and has more opportunity for a better job and wants to work, there is no shame in the husband being a house husband and staying home to raise the kids and mind the house (like a traditional wife would do).

Imagine a woman doctor who earns a small fortune marries a male factory worker who earns minimum wage. It is fair to you that the man be required to provide for the woman and any offspring and the woman horde her entire fortune for herself?
Islam has given the man the responsibility of providing for his family, but that does not mean the woman is prohibited from helping out if she has to or wants to. Neither is she told to hoarde her wealth while her family may need it. Countless muslims couples now work to provide for their family. But the woman is given sole rights to her earnings to protect her from having her income snatched from her and allow her the right to stay at home to look after the kids.

Wisdom is the key in islamic laws. Imagine a woman had to provide for her family? Imagine the burden she'd feel juggling housework and job? I'm an avid reader of women's magazines - and I can tell you how many western women complain that they come back from work and have to cook, clean and launder while their partner sits on his backside doing nothing all day. Luckily for those who follow islam, such violation of rights doesn't occur, because their priorities are appropiately placed.


My father was an ill man and my mother decided she wanted to work. My father felt extremely guilty but it was my mothers wish so he relented. We could've lived on benefits but we didn't. My father cooked and did the shopping while my mom worked. It worked out fine. But given a choice I wish my mom had been at home when we came back from school. Ask any kid and they'll say the same thing. So although, men have the responsibility of providing maintenance, Islam doesn't say the opposite is prohibited. With mutual consent the roles can be reversed or applied to both.
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Malaikah
02-17-2007, 09:44 AM
Originally Posted by Muslimah_Sis
and I can tell you how many western women complain that they come back from work and have to cook, clean and laundry while their partner sits on his backside doing nothing all day.
:sl:

No way!:rant: How low of them.

It is something rather universal, that women look for men who are going to provide for them and their children. It isn't exclusively a 'Muslim' thing.
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Snowflake
02-17-2007, 09:56 AM
It sure is. Even cavewomen stayed at home while men went hunting. I'd imagine a man would've got clubbed if he'd told the woman to go and kill a buffalo, while he warmed his extremeties by the fire.
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Pygoscelis
02-17-2007, 01:25 PM
Originally Posted by Muslimah_Sis
But the woman is given sole rights to her earnings
Yet the man is not. This is blatantly sexist and completely unfair to the men. I find it disgusting.

Imagine the burden she'd feel juggling housework and job?
Islam forbids men to do housework?
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Woodrow
02-17-2007, 02:12 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Yet the man is not. This is blatantly sexist and completely unfair to the men. I find it disgusting.



Islam forbids men to do housework?
Yet the man is not. This is blatantly sexist and completely unfair to the men. I find it disgusting.
Odd you would say that. Most people believe that woman are oppressed in Islam and have no rights.

This is part of the recognition of the basic differences between male and female. There are areas that men and women are treated differently, but the total overall arrangement assures that fairness is the result. You can not look at one aspect and say this is unfair as for each area a woman is subject to a man there will be an area under which a man is subject to a woman. the end result is fairness and each is given in accordance to need and ability and each is given responsibility in accordance to strengths. the end result is a marriage becomes a true partnership with recognition that there is delegation of authority. Neither male nor female is superior to the other and the marriage bond is stronger than the sum of the parts of the marriage.

Islam forbids men to do housework?
Men are not forbidden to do housework. But the house is seen to be under the authority of the woman. Overall it is her responsibility and along with the responsibility she has rights and privileges as to how the household is run. A man will help with housework to the extent the help is needed.
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Snowflake
02-17-2007, 02:42 PM
[QUOTE]
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Yet the man is not. This is blatantly sexist and completely unfair to the men. I find it disgusting.
Suppose a woman did not have rights to her earnings and property and her husband left her with small kids, fell ill, divorced her or died. Don't you think her assets will help her when there's no income coming in? Not only that it prevents a man marrying a woman for her money.



You say 'unfair' as if the man has no rights at all. Don't forget the man has authority over the woman. If he provides financially she in return looks after his wealth, not spend it meaninglessly, raises his children as good muslims, cooks cleans for him and makes his home and the family atmosphere heaven to live in. She is not to make unnecessary demands that aren't within his means. If she doing that, then how is it sexist if he spends on his family, which he created by his own choice? Both are pulling their weight in different ways and you call it unfair that he should do that for HIS family? Bear in mind, he only has to provide what is necessary. The rest he can do whatever he wants with it.


Islam forbids men to do housework?
No it gives them equal opportunities :D


btw, I bet women in old england would've welcomed islamic laws -when men used to marry them for their property and become owners of it too. :thumbs_do
Reply

NoName55
02-26-2007, 11:10 AM
:sl:

Sometimes I wonder (and despair) if people know the difference between debate and argument, between a genuine query and mischief making.


There are mischief makers who will never read your complete reply but a sentence or 2 to further nitpick and bait you into further argument thus wasting your time and keeping you from da’awah and/or other useful work you could be doing.


For G-d sake, move on once it becomes apparent.
Try and think of yourselves as a door to door salesman, if he used your way of selling, would soon starve to death. He is *not* intersted in one sale if it takes a life time but the overall number of sales that he makes.
:w:

P.S.
A da'ai should never engage in disscussion with a kafir or a mischief maker or follower of another faith, if no mutual respect and/or common ground can be found first.
When you people want to go upstairs do you start with the first step at ground floor or start from the last step at top of ladder/staircase?
Reply

Muslim Woman
03-02-2007, 12:00 AM



I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

With the name of ALLAH (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)

&&&

Originally Posted by NoName55
:sl:

A da'ai should never engage in disscussion with a kafir or a mischief maker or follower of another faith, if no mutual respect and/or common ground can be found first.

----how can we invite Atheists then ?


Reply

KAding
03-02-2007, 12:28 AM
I always found the idea that one male witness is equal to two women witnesses one of the most flagrant breaches of this supposed equality within Islam. This whole division of labor thing I can follow, since it is an undeniable fact that women get pregnant. But the female testimony in sharia court is something I cannot understand.

It seems to imply that women are less reliable witnesses, that they are more stupid and less reasonable. This is simply not something I can accept, being a male feminist and all that.
Reply

NoName55
03-02-2007, 12:33 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh




----how can we invite Atheists then ?

Wa Alaikum Salaam wa Rahmat Allah wa Barakat
Mutual respect is the key, And the example you set by living Islaam in such way that people want to be you, not living and behaving in such a way that they are repulsed by mere mention of the word "Islaam" that they'll want to erase it from the face planet like its being done in Gujraat, Kasmir and many Soviet states


The Eemaan of Allaah's servant will not be upright until his heart is upright and his heart will not be upright until his tongue is upright.
How will we fare on the Day when tongues are torn apart and faces ripped open? So how can we dare to let our tongues roam so freely? Rather than listening to such evil talk, let us use our tongues to secure great reward, by opposing all forms of backbiting, and with beautiful manners, correcting it. These situations are oppurtunities from Allaah to perform Jihaad, for indeed trying to keep our tongues is truly a Jihaad, (Jihaad al-Nafs).

The Prophet has warned us
When I was taken up into heaven, I passed by people who had copper claws tearing at their faces and chests. I asked, 'Who are these O Jibreel?' He replied: 'They those who ate the flesh of people and insulted their honor.
[Ahmad, Abu Dawood]

Not a word is said except there is a watcher by him ready to record it
[Surah Qaf 18]

So believer! Don't you want be the best in your practice of Islaam? Don't you want be those who enter Jannah and live in delight and ecstasy forever? Then look at your tongue and hands!

And spy not, neither backbite one another. Would one of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? You would hate it (so hate backbiting)...
[Al-Hujaraat 49:12]
:w:

Answer to "How do I give 'dawah'?" ........ Read
Planning events for 'dawah' - made E-Z:...... Read

Dawah Estes style

First let us begin with Basics Of Islam [click].

Here are some important points to keep in mind:

1. As Muslims we cannot lie about anything, especially about our religion.
2. Islam has the proof for everything that it teaches. Our sources are authentic and original. They are:
This is a unique part of Islam, not available in any other ancient religions.
Also, keep in mind while talking with people and answering their questions, sometimes "questions" contain misinformation. We must qualify what it is that someone is saying against what they mean.

Take special care in offer your answers. Keep your replies simple and to the point. Do not wander from subject to subject while answering a question.
Another important point is to remember that patience is an important part of the character of the Muslim and that you must not become angry or outraged at what people say to you or by the quesitons that they are asking. If you feel that it is too much for you to deal with, then simply walk away.
Also, don't try to be funny or sarcastic. This is distracting and not appropriate. Very often while giving the answer, we hear the person we are talking to saying something like, "I didn't know that." Or they might say, "This is actually something good." When this occurs we ask them, "Are you ready to rethink your position? Are you prepared to worship your God and your Lord without and partners?"
After all, isn't this what Islam is really all about? The most important subject is the worship of Almighty God, without any partners or associates or "gods" besides Almighty God.



Dawah is a word in Arabic that means "to invite" or "to offer to share." This is a very important part of being a Muslim and it can be somewhat difficult at times. Yet it is not impossible. The fact is that sharing Islam is a very simple concept. The difficulty comes in when you are trying to communicate the idea to others, especially when they have already been predisposed to believe in something else and to believe that Islam is something bad.
Keep in mind at all times that you are on a special mission to deliver a message of inviting people to worship Allah according to the way that He wants to be worshipped. You are to call them to know the truth and how to follow it. You do this with both your kind words and correct actions.
Your words are used in lectures, sermons, books, tapes and dialogs. These words help people to understand the truth of Islam.
Your actions are observed by others through your behavior and manners. You become the role model for what Islam is all about.
Both methods (dawah by words and actions) were used by the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) when delivering the message of Islam. He was the perfect example of what he was calling the people to do. Ayesah, may Allah be pleased with her, said that if you would like to see a living example of the Quran walking, then simply look to Muhammad, peace be upon him. His life was the best example of the noble teachings and principles set forth in the Quran.
Muslims are supposed to advise everyone by using a gentle and simple approach to attract the hungry souls to the Way of Allah. For sure today more than ever, people need to know about Islam and be able to put it into practice. We all need an example to follow.
Actually, the problem is not so much calling or inviting to people to the message of Islam, as it is the way that we go about it. The way that we present ourselves and the message is most important and unfortunately, something that many of the Muslims are not taking into consideration these days.
Some have actually ruined the image of dawah due to the rigid methods, mistakes and misunderstandings they are applying. This gives a very negative impression about Islam and the Muslims in general. Considering all of the detraction and negative media against Islam and Muslims occuring in these days, it is vital that we approach our dawah with wisdom, kind invitation and logical discussions.
One example of negative dawah is the false concept that so many Muslims have today about debating the Christians about their Bible. This is very incorrect and not a part of the teachings of the Quran or the way of Muhammad, peace be upon him. While there are a number of things that we might be able to share with them about what we believe that is similar to what they might find in their Book, it is not correct to try to attack their Book, their beliefs nor their understandings. A wise man once said, "Debates bring a lot of heat, but not very much light." Leave the idea of debating and do not attend any functions where these types of activities are taking place. Pray for the Muslims to wake up to the dangers of this as a tool for dawah before it is too late.
Another thing to stay away from is the so called "miracles" about the Quran and Islam that are not mentioned in the Quran or in the Sunnah of the prophet, peace be upon him. One example of the idea of some trees in Germany that are twisted around to spell, "Laa elaha illa lah, Muhammad rasoolulah." This is not true. The picture is a fake and anyone can easily prove this is not real. So where would you be if you had insisted that this was a "proof" that Islam is the right religion?
Other fake "miracles" include; a fish with "Allah" written on it; a tree bent toward Mekkah in prayer; a pumpkin with "Bismillah Rahman Raheem" on it. Please verify this by visiting our website page on these stories at:
http://www.islamtomorrow.com/pumpkin.htm
Another area to avoid is the misconception about the "miracle of numbers" in the Quran. The stories are many and all of them are false. There is no miracle of "19" in the Quran; this not the occurance of the word "day" and "night" 365 times (the Muslim calendar is 354 days anyway); the words "angel" and "devil" do not occur the same number of times; and all of the mathematical equasions mentioned about the earth and the water are worthless to someone who is trying to understand about Allah and Islam. So please stop this propaganda and DO NOT FORWARD these messages to everyone on your list.
That is NOT dawah. That is a waste of time and energy. The fact is, that this will turn people away from the truth and destroy the pure message of Islam.
When we are going to talk with folks about Islam, we should first begin with the word itself. Let people know that there is a difference between the word "Islam" and what some people are doing. Visit our page on this subject of the explanation of words before you try to discuss Islam with anyone:
http://www.IslamTomorrow.com/word/
"ISLAM" - Explain to them that "Islam" can be understood both, as a verb and as a noun. As a noun, it is the religion that was completed by Allah for all human beings 1,400 years ago. The message came with Muhammad, peace be upon him, in the Arabic language.
As a verb, the word "Islam" means the surrender, submission, obedience and peace in sincerity with Allah.
Next, explain to them that the word Muslim comes from the word Islam itself. And the Arabic uses a prefix to the verb rather than a suffix to indicate the one who is preforming the verb or action. So instead of being an "Islam-er" we are "Mu-islims" (Muslim).
Remember: K.I.S.S. (Keep It So Simple)
Next you might logically break down the word "Allah" and let them know what it comes from and how it is the perfect word to describe and represent the Lord of the Worlds, The Only Creator and Sustainer of the universe.
"Allah" comes from the root "elah" and the plural is "awliha." When the article "the" is placed in front of "elah" in Arabic, it becomes "Al-lah." In this state the word can no longer be made plural, nor can it be associated with gender. That is to say, that "Allah" can actually be used to represent the meaning of "One only to be worshipped, never plural, always singular and never man nor woman."
"Quran" is another word that you might explain to them. Let them understand that the Quran is not a book and that it is actually "alive" today in the hearts of over nine million (9,000,000) Muslims around the world. This is a real miracle. There is no other book like it. No book can compare to it and no other major religion today has their original preserved in the original language by so many followers of the religion.
For instance, you might ask the person, "Did you know? - Over NINE MILLION Muslims Memorized the Entire Quran. 9,000,000 + Muslims living today have memorized the entire Quran in the original Arabic language. But surprisingly over 75% of all Muslims are not Arab. In fact, the largest number of Muslims today are in Indonesia.
And did you know? That every Muslim in the world, over 1.5 billion have all memorized some of the Quran and each of them desires to memorize it entirely?


"Prophethood" in Islam is also an area that brings people to a better understanding of Muslims and what Islam is really about about. Let them know that as much as we love and honor and respect all of the prophets from Adam to Abraham and Moses and David, Jesus and Muhammad, peace be upon them all, we never worship them. As a matter of fact, that is where people begin to go the wrong way, by over praising something or someone in the creation. All praise and worship is due to Allah, alone.
You might like to read and share the messages about Muhammad, peace be upon him, and Jesus, peace be upon him, from the Muslim perspective. You could print these pages out and share them or ask them to visit the links online if they can.
"Muhammad" - "Jesus"
"Human Rights" is a favorite to talk about. And then rights in general in Islam. Of course it is Allah, who has the first and most exclusive right, that of being worshipped alone without any partners.
"Women's rights" There are areas to discuss and in particular of great interest today, is the rights of women. Also, you could mention that today more than ever before, women are coming into Islam in greater numbers than men. This is a fact.
There are many areas to open up the dialog, but always keep in mind that the message is to call people to worship Allah, Alone without any partners.


Make the clear distinction between what "Islam" teaches and what some "Muslims" do. Ask them to consider some of the bad people in history who were supposed to be Christians, yet what they did does not represent the Christians or Jesus.
"Islam" is not what some Muslims do. It is what all Muslims are "supposed" to do.
So all in all, you need to adopt gentleness and politeness in presenting your arguments. Allah Almighty addresses His Prophet, saying:
“Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knows best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance.” (An-Nahl: 125)
The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is reported to have said: “Indeed, gentleness adds more beauty to the atmosphere it reposes therein.”
Actually, nothing is more needed now, in making dawah, than correct knowledge, gentleness and wisdom. The reason for this is to dispel all the superstitions and lies spread against Islam. All this needs wisdom, patience and perseverance, and such polite methods brings quick results and has rapid effect on the audience.
Consider the wife of Abu sufyan, Hind and her saying to Muhammad, peace be upon him, after she came to Islam; "I never wanted to see anyone on the face of the earth to be put down more than you and your family. But now, I do not see anyone on the face of the earth more honored than you and your family."
This is a clear example of the prophet's effect on people's hearts and minds through his behavior and manners. Callers to Islam must follow this great example in their efforts to share the message of Islam instead of turning them away.
Always consider your audience and who it is that you are speaking to. If the people are not familiar with the Arabic language, then there is no real need to speak Arabic or make all of your quotes in Arabic and then try to translate everything to English. This is silly and could turn people away. Remember to keep everything on their level and not try to talk above them or talk down to them.
Allah is the All Knower.
Visit our page on this subject and then write back to me with more questions:
http://www.islamtomorrow.com/dawah/
Also visit:
www.IslamTomorrow.com/word
More important links re: Islam - Research - Answers - Audio
Thanks again for your question. All good is from Allah & mistake







Reply

Talha777
03-02-2007, 12:35 AM
----how can we invite Atheists then ?
Atheists are relatively new in the field of religion. Yet the Holy Quran is such a detailed book of divine wisdom and guidance, it addresses every concern of man. Regarding the existence of God, people, especially Christians, employ the cosmological argument, as well as arguments of intelligent design. Yet the Holy Quran has mentioned these arguments which cannot be found at all in the Bible, so it seems to me Islam is the natural religion when it comes to providing proofs for the existence of the Almighty Lord above.

The Intelligent Design Argument:

قَالَ رَبُّنَا الَّذِي أَعْطَى كُلَّ شَيْءٍ خَلْقَهُ ثُمَّ هَدَى

He said: "Our Lord is He Who gave to each (created) thing its form and nature, and further, gave (it) guidance." (20:50)

The Cosmological Argument:

وَأَنَّ إِلَى رَبِّكَ الْمُنتَهَى

That to thy Lord is the final Goal (53:42)
Reply

NoName55
03-02-2007, 12:40 AM
Originally Posted by KAding
I always found the idea that one male witness is equal to two women witnesses one of the most flagrant breaches of this supposed equality within Islam. This whole division of labor thing I can follow, since it is an undeniable fact that women get pregnant. But the female testimony in sharia court is something I cannot understand.

It seems to imply that women are less reliable witnesses, that they are more stupid and less reasonable. This is simply not something I can accept, being a male feminist and all that.
It is a very good point, thank you for asking that

under pressure who gets more hysterical and or emotional? a man or woman

answer that as honestly as you can and only then we can talk more

peace
Reply

NoName55
03-02-2007, 12:45 AM
Originally Posted by Talha777


The Intelligent Design Argument:


The Cosmological Argument:
Is it not the word arguement that got us where we are today, despised so much that we are being culled at every available opportunity?
Reply

Talha777
03-02-2007, 12:50 AM
You are misunderstanding brother. I am talking about argument in connotation of an academic and logically held belief, not in the sense of an hostile quarrel.
Reply

NoName55
03-02-2007, 01:00 AM
Salaam Alaikum
my appologies, thank you for clarification :)

Ma'asalaama
Reply

Talha777
03-02-2007, 01:02 AM
Wa alaikum assalam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu

No worries brother. Hey, this is my fiftieth post! I should be a full member now.

Jazak Allah khair
Reply

NoName55
03-02-2007, 01:11 AM
congrats are in order well done" :)
Reply

syilla
03-02-2007, 03:42 AM
Originally Posted by KAding
I always found the idea that one male witness is equal to two women witnesses one of the most flagrant breaches of this supposed equality within Islam. This whole division of labor thing I can follow, since it is an undeniable fact that women get pregnant. But the female testimony in sharia court is something I cannot understand.

It seems to imply that women are less reliable witnesses, that they are more stupid and less reasonable. This is simply not something I can accept, being a male feminist and all that.
hello there...

firstly for the two women witnesses needed in court is not used for all cases. This is mainly on business dealings and issues.

secondly it doesn't mentioned that one man witness equal to two women witnesses.

better wording...

The issue of two women witnesses in place of one man is the concern of the present treatise. As will become clear to the sincere and objective reader, the intellectual status of a Muslim woman is neither marred nor degraded by the commandment that if two Muslim male witnesses are not available then one Muslim male and two Muslim females should be invited to witness.
For more info : http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/dawah/0030.htm

http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/B...conception.htm
Reply

KAding
03-02-2007, 09:47 AM
Originally Posted by NoName55
It is a very good point, thank you for asking that

under who gets more hysterical and or emotional? a man or woman

answer that as honestly as you can and only then we can talk more

peace
I think that is prejudiced, as if all women would be less reliable witnesses. If a women witness truly was too emotional than that should be dealt with at a trial, not by simply dismissing female testimony as unreliable by definition. I don't know, this kind of collective thinking seems to come back frequently in Islam.

Besides, according to this study women outperform men as far as 'episodic memory' is concerned (which deals with the recollection of events). Exactly the kind of memory relevant in court I would think!
Reply

KAding
03-02-2007, 09:58 AM
Originally Posted by syilla
hello there...

firstly for the two women witnesses needed in court is not used for all cases. This is mainly on business dealings and issues.

secondly it doesn't mentioned that one man witness equal to two women witnesses.

better wording...

The issue of two women witnesses in place of one man is the concern of the present treatise. As will become clear to the sincere and objective reader, the intellectual status of a Muslim woman is neither marred nor degraded by the commandment that if two Muslim male witnesses are not available then one Muslim male and two Muslim females should be invited to witness.
For more info : http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/dawah/0030.htm

http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/B...conception.htm
Hmm, there seems to be some disagreement about it in Islamic thought then? Since Islam-QA clearly states:

http://islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=20...en%20testimony
With regard to the witness of two women being equal to the testimony of one man. Allaah has mentioned the wisdom behind specifying the number of two as being that a woman may forget or get confused

<snip>

This does not mean that a woman does not understand or that she cannot remember things, but she is weaker than man in these aspects – usually. Scientific and specialized studies have shown that men’s minds are more perfect than those of women, and reality and experience bear witness to that. The books of knowledge are the best witness to that; the knowledge which has been transmitted by men and the ahaadeeth which have been memorized by men far outnumber those which have come via women.

This has to do with gender, i.e., the gender of men is more perfect than the gender of women.
This is somewhat at odds with the description on the website you provided. It was an interesting link nevertheless, thank you.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
03-02-2007, 09:58 AM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Instead of going through all of this, can some answer simple question?

you ask such complicated intricate questions and then expect simple answers? Please sir, at least put in the effort to fully find and understand the truth :)
Reply

Snowflake
03-02-2007, 11:11 AM
Originally Posted by KAding
I think that is prejudiced, as if all women would be less reliable witnesses. If a women witness truly was too emotional than that should be dealt with at a trial, not by simply dismissing female testimony as unreliable by definition. I don't know, this kind of collective thinking seems to come back frequently in Islam.

Besides, according to this study women outperform men as far as 'episodic memory' is concerned (which deals with the recollection of events). Exactly the kind of memory relevant in court I would think!
Hi Kading,
People of both sexes are more likely to remember events that aroused strong emotions. However this effect is stronger in women. But as Syilla sis pointed out two female witnesses are only called for in cases of business dealings/ transactions. Such dealing have no emotional impact on anyone. And as the verse mentions dealing with transactions over a fixed period of time, it makes sense to have two female witnesses, so that if one forgets the other may remember.

Here is a verse of the Holy Quran which states this clearly..

"Oh! ye who believe!
When ye deal with each other,
in transactions involving future obligation
in a fixed period of time
reduce them to writing and get two witnesses
out of your own men and if there are not two men,
then a man and two women, such as ye choose,
for witnesses so that if one of them errs
the other can remind her."
The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 2, Verse 282



***


So are we saying that women are more forgetful than men? In the long-term- yes! So let's look at the possibilities of why women's memory may suffer at some point. Here are some findings by Mary V. Seeman, M.D.

1) Women suffer from dementia more than men.

2) When estrogen levels drop at menopause, brain cells of women begin to degenerate at a faster pace than those of men. Men are relatively spared because their continuing testosterone secretion is converted, to some extent, to estradiol in the brain.


3) Estrogens also modulate the secretion of acetylcholine in the hippocampus by their effect on choline acetyltransferase, an enzyme critical to the maintenance of memory functions


4) Women are disproportionally prone to Alzheimer's disease, even after adjustment for their longer survival


5) Women's cognitive impairments may also be more severe than men's

In summary, women's special vulnerability to Alzheimer's disease, a disease of neuronal degeneration, may be attributable—as is the case for osteoporosis and cardiovascular disease—to postmenopausal estrogen withdrawal.



***


I wish to keep this post short and sweet for easy reading. So I won't state hoardes of facts about the effects depression has on memory. But it is a fact that women are more prone to depression than men and that depression affects memory.


Below: Excerpt from an article by Elisa Lottor, Ph.D., N.D. and Nancy P. Bruning.

Female and Forgetful

"To my knowledge, there are no studies that compare the ways in which the loss of cognitive function varies between men and women. But as I stated in the introduction, there are indications that women experience memory loss differently than men. Their brains differ anatomically, and this alone suggests profound possibilities of uniqueness. Other factors such as stress, nutrition, and hormonal influences also set women's forgetfulness apart from men's."


The evidence speaks for itself. When it comes to memory we have take everything that affects a woman into account. Which is exactly what Allah swt, did when He commanded that in certain cases the testimony of two females is required to one of a man.

The so called inequality of female & male witness is not due to inequality of the sexes in islam. But to their different roles and natures as foreseen by Allah - The All-Knowing.


Peace.
Reply

wilberhum
03-02-2007, 11:28 PM
it makes sense to have two female witnesses, so that if one forgets the other may remember.
Doesn't that confirm gender inequality? Doesn't it make sense to have two male witnesses, so that if one forgets the other may remember?
I have knowen business women that were sharper than most all Males.
Reply

Talha777
03-03-2007, 12:51 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Doesn't that confirm gender inequality? Doesn't it make sense to have two male witnesses, so that if one forgets the other may remember?
I have knowen business women that were sharper than most all Males.
What you know is subject to your experience, but what Allah commands is based on Him being Al-Aleem (The All-Knowing). So how can we with our limited rational capabilities question the Judgment of Almighty Allah?

Men and women can never be treated equally, that's just a fact you have to live with. We have different biologies and different pyschologies, etc., and no amount of politically correct feminist nonsense can change that.
Reply

Snowflake
03-03-2007, 01:12 AM
it makes sense to have two female witnesses, so that if one forgets the other may remember.
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Doesn't that confirm gender inequality?
No, because the chances of women losing their memory is higher than men's. So the addition of an extra female witness is a brilliant way to reduce the chances of losing a testimony. A bit like having backup memory card. : )


Doesn't it make sense to have two male witnesses, so that if one forgets the other may remember?
no because medical evidence has it that more men suffer from mental disorders such as schizophrenia than women. They also have a shorter life span. And are more likely to die in accidents than women. So Allah swt with His Wisdom has created the perfect balance in the duties of both sexes according to their strengths and vunerabilities.


I have knowen business women that were sharper than most all Males
lol I'm sure there's plenty of them. But a rule is neither logical or applicable if it's based on the assessment of individuals in the minority. In studies carried out involving large groups of women (from all walks of life), it has been distinctly proven that women suffer more from memory related conditions than men. And one condition which no woman escapes is the menopause. (One of the reasons why women may suffer loss of memory at some point).


peace.. I need my sleep :uhwhat
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-03-2007, 01:17 AM
I know my bro has better memory than me :X lol
Reply

Snowflake
03-03-2007, 11:29 AM
Originally Posted by Jazzy
I know my bro has better memory than me :X lol
mine too.. actually EVERYONE has a better memory than me :(

except one day we were discussing polygamy and he said, "well a woman can't have four husbands cuz it would spread STD's. But a man can have four wives cuz he can't catch anything from them." uh? ;D

I was laughing so hard I needed oxygen. And when I asked him if men can't catch it how did he think the wives got it in the first place? Then he realised what he'd said and this time he was the one needing oxygen.

After all that he said that he'd heard it in Zakir Naik lecture but he was sure std's had sumthing to do.. only he couldn't remember what! :giggling:
Reply

Woodrow
03-03-2007, 01:04 PM
In my non-Islam days I used to think the ruling about 2 woman witnesses was very demeaning to women and was a way of saying that women had only half the value of men.

However, it looking at it from a logical view point this is actually a means of protecting woman and helping assure they they do not get cheated in any transactions.

Often in life it is an advantage to not be a witness for some things. In Islam Woman are empowered with the ability to NOT be a witness if being a witness would harm them. And they can do so without ever needing to lie. They just not need to provide a second witness if they desire not to.

Sadly, humans have twisted this around culturaly and have mis-used the ruling. So when we see it misused, we are seeing a culture following it's own bias and calling it Islam.
Reply

wilberhum
03-05-2007, 01:59 AM
Originally Posted by Muslimah_Sis
No, because the chances of women losing their memory is higher than men's. So the addition of an extra female witness is a brilliant way to reduce the chances of losing a testimony. A bit like having backup memory card. : )



no because medical evidence has it that more men suffer from mental disorders such as schizophrenia than women. They also have a shorter life span. And are more likely to die in accidents than women. So Allah swt with His Wisdom has created the perfect balance in the duties of both sexes according to their strengths and vunerabilities.



lol I'm sure there's plenty of them. But a rule is neither logical or applicable if it's based on the assessment of individuals in the minority. In studies carried out involving large groups of women (from all walks of life), it has been distinctly proven that women suffer more from memory related conditions than men. And one condition which no woman escapes is the menopause. (One of the reasons why women may suffer loss of memory at some point).


peace.. I need my sleep :uhwhat
The question is "How come there no gender equality in Islam?"
What, to me is important, is that you have confirmed that there is not gender equality.
You may think what you state are reasons, but I conceder them excuses. Which ever they are, I have no concern. What is important to me is equality. In my opinion any law that makes any deviation based on gender, religion, or race, is immoral. At least that is the direction my “Moral Compass” points.
Reply

Talha777
03-05-2007, 01:09 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
The question is "How come there no gender equality in Islam?"
What, to me is important, is that you have confirmed that there is not gender equality.
You may think what you state are reasons, but I conceder them excuses. Which ever they are, I have no concern. What is important to me is equality. In my opinion any law that makes any deviation based on gender, religion, or race, is immoral. At least that is the direction my “Moral Compass” points.
Without religion you cannot have a moral compass (and without Islam the compass is broken). The fact of the matter is that men and women are not equal, our different biologies and psychologies confirm that. A Just God, whom Allah most definitely is, will make equitable, not equal, standards for men and women. You didn't mention age, but I'm sure you agree the law can't be completely the same for children and adults. In most Western countries, the law ensures that children are given shelter and a whole lot of other benefits by their parents and guardians, but at the same time they are not allowed to have a license until age 16 or allowed to vote until age 18. These laws may seem discriminatory and unequal, but they are designed to address the different needs of different age groups. Similarly with the Islamic prescriptions for men and women.
Reply

wilberhum
03-05-2007, 07:31 PM
Talha777
Without religion you cannot have a moral compass
You obviously need a dictionary.
[PIE]Moral:
1. involving right and wrong: relating to issues of right and wrong and to how individual people should behave
2. derived from personal conscience: based on what somebody's conscience suggests is right or wrong, rather than on what rules or the law says should be done
3. according to common standard of justice: regarded in terms of what is known to be right or just, as opposed to what is officially or outwardly declared to be right or just[/PIE]
Notice that there is mo mention of religion. It is your misconception that only theists have morals. Of course religion can be a source of morals but not the only source.
without Islam the compass is broken
So 80% of the world works of a broken compass. At least in you unbiased opinion, Right?

The fact of the matter is that men and women are not equal, our different biologies and psychologies confirm that.
And those factors, in my opinion, should have nothing to do with legal matters. But thanks again for confirming that there is not gender equality in Islam.
You didn't mention age,
That would be correct. I think some laws need to differ based on age. So we have a point of agreement. But still the thread is about gender equality and has nothing to do with age. :-[
Reply

Snowflake
03-06-2007, 10:11 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
The question is "How come there no gender equality in Islam?"
What, to me is important, is that you have confirmed that there is not gender equality.
You may think what you state are reasons, but I conceder them excuses. Which ever they are, I have no concern. What is important to me is equality. In my opinion any law that makes any deviation based on gender, religion, or race, is immoral. At least that is the direction my “Moral Compass” points.
Hi Wilberhum,
Did you notice that I was replying to Kading with regards as to why Islam calls for two women witnesses in financial matters. I'll remind you that it is in case one forgets. My post consisted of findings that prove women are more forgetful than men and why. I think that more than sufficiently proves there is wisdom behind the ruling.

However, it may not prove there is gender equality in the way you want that fits your views of gender equality, but it proves that responsibilities are assigned to each gender according to their mental, physical and emotional characteristics.


I'd also like to point out that in regards of two female witnesses there exists another logic. Which is that if anyone should try and dispute the testimony of a single female witness, there will be another female to give evidence on her behalf. It's not uncommon for unscrupulous men to take advantage of women of a lone female.

Therefore when it comes to rights, both genders are given the equal protection to prevent miscarriage of justice. That is equality.

There are also matters in which the testimony of single female is sufficient.

"And those who launch a charge
against their spouses, and have (in support)
no evidence but their own -
their solitary evidence can be received."
The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 24, Verse 6


"Oh you who believe!
When death approaches any of you,
(take) witnesses among yourself when making bequests."
The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 5, Verse 106

^any witness, male or female - because there is no chance of a woman being taken advantage of. Two females only in dealing with financial transactions.


Finally, no matter what your views are you cannot disagree that men and women are different, mentally, emotionally and in physical endurance. Therefore in that respect two genders can never be equal and as muslims we happily accept that as being natural. And what we are even more happier with is that despite the differences islam has given both genders equal amounts of rights in line with their requirements. Now that is equality.

If you insist on inserting the word 'gender' into equality then ask WWF why they don't allow wrestling between men and women. Isn't that gender inequality? :ooh:
Reply

wilberhum
03-06-2007, 04:59 PM
Muslimah_Sis
I would also like to thank you for also confirming that there is not gender equality in Islam.

Wilber
Reply

Snowflake
03-06-2007, 05:05 PM
lol nvm, it's no skin off my nose. We are more than happy with the fair approach for both genders in Islamic Laws and that's all that matters. If you don't see it like that then that's your prerogative. I'm out. :)
Reply

Muslim Woman
03-07-2007, 12:27 AM
Salaam/peace

Originally Posted by wilberhum
Muslimah_Sis
I would also like to thank you for also confirming that there is not gender equality in Islam.

Wilber

&&

i did not read the whole thread. The following articles may help u to remove ur misconception.



Myth: In Islam, Women are Inferior to Men

http://thetruereligion.org/modules/w...p?articleid=24

who is dearer to Allah, men or women?

This question is emphatically answered in the Qur'an (translation),





[4:124] If any do deeds of righteousness - be they male or female - and have faith, they will enter Paradise, and not the least injustice will be done to them.



[33:35] For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for truthful men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast, for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise, for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward.



The Qur'an and Sunnah repeat over and over again that Allah only favors one person over another based on that person's awareness, consciousness, fear, love, and hope of Allah (the Arabic word is difficult to translate: Taqwa).


All other criteria are excluded: gender, ethnic group, country, ancestry, etc.



Given that Allah does not favor one gender over the other in His attention to us (and it helps to remember that Allah is neither male nor female), we can now address the differences between the genders in Islam.


First, men and women are not the same as we know.....pl. visit link.





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Muslim Woman
03-07-2007, 12:42 AM


Salaam/peace;


Most Common Questions asked by Non-Muslims

EQUALITY OF WITNESSES

--DR. Zakir Naik


.....There are some scholars who are of the opinion that the rule of two female witnesses equal to one male witness should be applied to all the cases.



This cannot be agreed upon because one particular verse of the Qur’an from Surah Noor chapter 24, verse 6 clearly equates one female witness and one male witness:




"And those who launch a charge
against their spouses, and have (in support)


no evidence but their own -
their solitary evidence can be received."



[Al-Qur’an 24:6]



Hazrat Ayesha (RA) hadith narrated of one witness



Many jurists agree that even one witness of a woman is sufficient for the sighting of the crescent of the moon.


Imagine one woman witness is sufficient for one of the pillars of Islam, i.e. fasting and the whole Muslim community of men and women agree and accept her witness!


Some jurists say that one witness is required at the beginning of Ramadaan and two witnesses at the end of Ramadaan. It makes no difference whether the witnesses are men or women.



Some incidents require only female witness and that of a male cannot be accepted. For instance, in dealing with the problems of women, while giving the burial bath i.e. ‘ghusl’ to a woman, the witness has to be a woman.



The seeming inequality of male and female witnesses in financial transactions is not due to any inequality of the sexes in Islam. It is only due to the different natures and roles of men and women in society as envisaged by Islam

http://www.irf.net/irf/faqonislam/index.htm


Reply

wilberhum
03-07-2007, 12:46 AM
Muslim Woman
Remember when you said:
There are also matters in which the testimony of single female is sufficient.
Exactly. Inequality!
Now surly it is a distortion to say there is No gender equality in Islam.
But as you and others have pointed out, there are cases where there is Not gender equality.
And that is my point.
Reply

Muslim Woman
03-07-2007, 01:00 AM


Salaam/peace;


Originally Posted by wilberhum
Muslim Woman
Remember when you said:

Exactly. Inequality!
Now surly it is a distortion to say there is No gender equality in Islam.
But as you and others have pointed out, there are cases where there is Not gender equality.
And that is my point.


---Islam is a practicl religion . So , there is a difference between men & women's role & responsibilities.


A husband earns & wife has every right to snatch the money from him , when she works , he has NO RIGHT to do the same ........uh NO GENDER EUQALITY ......right ? :D :statisfie

.

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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-07-2007, 01:14 AM
He said certain cases. Maybe someone should clear it out. We cant change how ppl think. Its not up to us. All we can do is tell someone.
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wilberhum
03-07-2007, 06:10 PM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman

Salaam/peace;
---Islam is a practicl religion . So , there is a difference between men & women's role & responsibilities.


A husband earns & wife has every right to snatch the money from him , when she works , he has NO RIGHT to do the same ........uh NO GENDER EUQALITY ......right ? :D :statisfie

.
Practical and legal are not the same thing. :rollseyes
And yes, if he has no right to do the same, it is gender inequality. :?
Reply

Muslim Woman
03-08-2007, 12:09 AM




Originally Posted by wilberhum
I always concider inequality bad.
let's cry for the poor Muslim men :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:


fortunately many people don't think like u & despite the hostile media propaganda against Islam , they are becoming Muslims :D

& most are women:thumbs_up


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wilberhum
03-08-2007, 12:15 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman





let's cry for the poor Muslim men :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:


fortunately many people don't think like u & despite the hostile media propaganda against Islam , they are becoming Muslims :D

& most are women:thumbs_up

I have never hear a non-Muslim say they wanted to be on the short end of equality. So I would say that fortunately most people think like me.

If you like that situation, more power to you.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-08-2007, 02:36 AM
Yea, they dont, which is why a lot choose Islam, which are mostly women.
Reply

Snowflake
03-08-2007, 10:54 AM
I think there are some words which hold different definitions for different people. For instance, Wilberhum defines 'equality' in the sense that both genders must have parallel rights and responsibilities - or it's not equality.

However for me equality means that both genders have equal rights and burden of responsibility, despite the dissimilarity in their roles.

The way I see it is, that if two pieces of a jigsaw puzzle were exactly the same, they'd never fit into each other. Therefore, the differences in roles/duties of both genders compliment each other to create an effective mechanism needed to run whole communities smoothly.

If that in your terms is gender inequality - then we are happy with it. Like I said if we were 'equal' in all matters, we'd never fit as two parts of one. The differences only serve to draw us together - just like two unidentical pieces of a jigsaw puzzle. Hence, what a beautiful thing 'inequality' is. :D
Reply

aamirsaab
03-08-2007, 11:18 AM
:sl:

Since biologically, and to some extent psychologically, male and female are not, how we say equal, how can any law be truely equal to both genders - if a law tried to be equal to both genders then this would be unequal to one gender.

e.g. if the law stated that male and females both get the same time off for paternity leave then this would be inequal since the mother is in most cases the child bearer (since she has to actually give birth to the child), whereas the father is the breadwinner (again, on a biological and pscyhological level).

At this particular time of a child's life, the mother holds more importance since there is an immediate psychological and biological link between mother and child. The father at this time will only have the biological link, he may very well have a psychological link but it has not been established with the child (don't forget the little guy), and will not be at the same initial level as with the mother.

Essentially, the father would be getting a free holiday when in reality he should actually be working to help raise the child in terms of being the person who purchases and earns, whilst simultaneously the mother is doing her thang (i'm not going into details, you know what a mother's job is :p)

So even though in this example both male and female are given equal holidays, we can see that by doing this the child would in fact suffer, as would the family as a whole since there is no income. Certain folk would argue that a women can also earn money - yes this is true, but a man doesn't give birth does he? So while he is busy not giving birth he can be out there earning money to support his family.

Islam is aware of this inherent inequality (if you can call it that) between both genders so the laws are reflected. What you see as inequality between genders is actually a misunderstanding - on face level it can be said there is no gender equality in Islam, but as you begin to analyse it and take things into consideration it is clear that this is not the case.

(p.s; this post initially was small, but turned out big. Sorry)
Reply

vpb
03-08-2007, 11:45 AM
If a man is allowed to have many wives and if women are equal to men, are women allowed to have many husbands as well? :-)
what would happen if a woman marries 4 men? and she is pregnant? who is the father? and if you say that "well we could find out that with lab analysis", then do you think about 890 babies being born every 3 minutes, would have to be tested who is the father? (i'm excluding here technology issues, that the apparatus might give wrong results and also the time consume of the analysis). you could mess up somebody's life forever.


and btw i would like to see a woman digging a ditch, or put her in heavy physical work, since they want """equal rights""".
and if there is divorce do you think men should have the right equal to the woman to raise the baby, NOO, bc he's nature is not to raise babies. it's the women's right to get the baby and raise such a beatufiul creature. it does not belong to the men.

or "I want to be pregnant, i want to give birth to a child", I can'tttttt, because Allah swt gave that owner to the women, to hold a baby and feelin it grow in her stomach.

so don't look at equality in naive way. "Equal rights" is some wierd ideas that have been fed to people. Hold on and contemplate the world around you.

They have equal rights in spiritual way, but not other ways, bc depending on what you're talking about the person will have more rights.

for ex. a 20 years and 10 years old boys, who has more right to drink water first if they both are thirsty? of course the 10 years old boy, but if you look in different prespective, for example they have the money to buy the water, who has more right to keep the money, of course the 20 years old, he can keep them safer.
Reply

lolwatever
03-08-2007, 12:08 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Today, it has been proven that women are equally capable as men.
where? how?

Then how come, Islam doesn't provide with equality? For example, a man is allowed to beat his wife. A man can have many wives even though it's proven that women can equally capable of earning as much as men, in some cases even more than men. Then how come a woman isn't allowed to have many husbands if she can afford to do so?
a. how would the wife know which husband the baby belongs to.
b. physiological reasons (SD's can be caused etc..)


c. there's a difference between equity and equality.

Islam puts equity between males and females. Equality is something that just doesn't even match with reality (e.g. if they are equally capable, why can't a man nurse a baby?)

tc all the best :)
Reply

Malaikah
03-08-2007, 12:13 PM
Originally Posted by vpb
what would happen if a woman marries 4 men? and she is pregnant? who is the father? and if you say that "well we could find out that with lab analysis", then do you think about 890 babies being born every 3 minutes, would have to be tested who is the father? (i'm excluding here technology issues, that the apparatus might give wrong results and also the time consume of the analysis). you could mess up somebody's life forever.
:sl:

Not to mention most parts of the world do not offer that technology, and even if they do, most people can't afford it.:rollseyes

Originally Posted by wilberhum
And those factors, in my opinion, should have nothing to do with legal matters. But thanks again for confirming that there is not gender equality in Islam.
We have something better- it is called equity and justice, and guess what, we have equality too, but only where it is practical, and does not result in injustice!

Men and women are seen as equal in from of Allah. Just because we have rules that apply differently to males and females, doesn't mean that injustice is taking place, or that one is superior to another.

It doesn't take a genius to figure that out... seriously. Men do not equal women, no matter how hard you try to make it seem that way.

Originally Posted by wilberhum
So I would say that fortunately most people think like me.
If most people think like you, then all inequality is bad. Okay, I think it is time to get rid of those special parking places that only disabled people are allowed to park in... it isn't equality, it has to go. I guess we should also get rid of all gender based things in life, such as clothes, hair styles and names, and replace them with unisex uniforms... oh dear, but men and women aren't the same either... perhaps we should just exterminate all traces of males and females so we never again had biological inequality...

:rollseyes
Reply

vpb
03-08-2007, 12:31 PM
Malaikah,

let's even assume that all the countries can offer this technology,it would still be a mess. Plus imagine how many people would be dis-motivated to have kids? look at UK, just bc they give the same rights to married couple and unmarried couple, the number of marriages have started dropping.

Today, it has been proven that women are equally capable as men.
what way? earning money? getting a degree?

my friend, not the whole world is about getting Phd and earning money. Money and college do not make you a good person, they don't fix up your moral.

ohhh, why isn't there any female in the One Para brigade?? (UK Army), the ones that keep the machine guns with one hand, the ones with red hats?
and do u know how much u need to work to get in there?
Reply

Muslim Woman
03-08-2007, 03:04 PM

Salaam/peace;


what would happen if a woman marries 4 men? and she is pregnant? who is the father? and if you say that "well we could find out that with lab analysis".........

--to my knowledge , DNA test is done after the baby is born ; so which husband will be responsible for taking care of wife through out the pregnancy time ?


If all 4 husbands deny that no , it's not my baby , then how to decide the matter ? U can't force a man to pay for other man's baby , can u ?


It's husband's duty to bring the wife to his home & take care of her ; so how 4 husbands will bring only 1 wife to 4 different homes ?


One solution is 4 brothers will marry 1 girl-----that is prohibited in Islam . May be , some people need to create a new religion . LOL :rollseyes



Reply

Muslim Woman
03-08-2007, 03:17 PM

Salaam/peace;





Does Islam Oppress Women?

A Muslim Woman's Response




Talk delivered by Sr. Aminah Mah at Curtin University, Perth on 31/08/2003



http://www.islam-australia.net

A Muslim! Kathy, how could you - a white western woman convert to a religion which makes its women second class citizens!”

Katherine Bullock (www.islamfortoday.com)

In Australia, it was believed that 4 out 5 converts are women. (Buckley, Salam 1995)


Right to attain piety

Unlike women in the Jewish and Christian teachings


(http://www.fountainmagazine.com/2003/women.html), Islam gave women absolute equal opportunity as men to attain piety. The emphasis is unmistakably clear in the following verse in the Qur’an:




“Verily, the Muslims men and women, the believers men and women, the men and women who are obedient,

the men and women who are truthful, the men and women who are patient, the men and women who are humble,


the men and women who fast, the men and women who guard their chastity and the men and women who remember Allah much with their hearts and tongues,

Allah has prepared for them forgiveness and a great reward.” (33:35)


Right to choose marriage partner and the right to fair treatment:

“O ye who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, …live with them on a footing of kindness and equity if ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.” (4:19)



In Canada, a woman is sexually assaulted every 6 minutes; 1 in 3 women in Canada will be sexually assaulted at some time in their lives; 1 in 4 women are at the risk of rape or attempted rape in her lifetime; and 1 in 8 women will be sexually assaulted while attending college or university; and a study found that 60% of Canadian university-aged males said they would commit sexual assault if they were certain they wouldn’t get caught.”



This led me to look into the statistics in Australia. From a Women’s Safety survey by the Australian Bureau of Statistics, 2.6 million women had experienced one or more incidents of physical or sexual violence since the age of 15, of which, 2.5 million were perpetrated by men. 77% of victims of homicide are women and male offenders are responsible for 80% of these cases. (ABS 1996)




We cannot deny a hard fact that men are physically stronger than women.


This leads me to the discussion, briefly on the difference in appearance between Muslim men and women. God commands us to cover, for many good reasons. Allah says in the Qur’an regarding women’s code of dress, that “they should be known as believing women so as not to be annoyed.” (33:59). By covering up our beauty, by leaving our adornments at home, by facing the public with only what is absolutely necessary, we expand our personal space to a larger perimeter; the strict dress code is aimed at protecting the believing women from assault and other harms.


By lowering our gaze and checking our manner of communication, that is our tone of voice and the content of our conversation, we reduce the chances of uninvited intrusion.


.......In the same token, Muslim men are instructed to lower their gaze, guard their chastity, dress and behave in modesty, to deserve the special companionship of their wives who preserved themselves for their eyes only.



...The miracle of the Qur’an will continue to convince those who look for answers about life, with a truly open mind. Would you care to read it before it is too late?






Reply

tomtomsmom
03-08-2007, 03:38 PM
I am not saying that I agree with it one way or the other, this is just a in general type of question.

If a man marries say 4 women and they each have a child, do the women share in the raising of the children? Does each woman treat the others womens children as her own?
Reply

Muslim Woman
03-08-2007, 03:55 PM

Salaam/peace;


Originally Posted by tomtomsmom
.

If a man marries say 4 women and they each have a child, do the women share in the raising of the children? Does each woman treat the others womens children as her own?

----to my knowledge , wife deserves (it'a a must ) to have her own seperate room/different portion if not seperate home is available. so, she does not need to take care of other wife's baby.

all babies will have their own mommy & daddy.


of course , if one takes care of others kids , there will be rewards. Allah won't deprive anyone . We will be rewarded for all good deeds does not matter how little/ insignificant it looks like.

Reply

One Man Army
03-08-2007, 04:50 PM
so dont any of the islamic sisters in here feel upset, or feel it is unfair to have your husband and some other women having sexual relationship in the room next door??? your ok with this?
Reply

aamirsaab
03-08-2007, 04:52 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by ultimate truth
so dont any of the islamic sisters in here feel upset, or feel it is unfair to have your husband and some other women having sexual relationship in the room next door??? your ok with this?
Firstly, you assume polygamy is a must, which is incorrect. It is allowed but not obligatory.

Secondly, polygamy is not practiced that much by muslims. Maybe more so in the middle east I would assume, where generally the economy is not how we say, good.
Reply

Pygoscelis
03-08-2007, 05:04 PM
I don't know how often Islam is accused of being gender unequal.

I do often hear it being called sexist, and that is an accurate accusation. It is sexist by definition. It assigns gender roles hence its sexist. Personally that puts me off it, if a woman wants to do "manly" things and a man wants to do "womanly" things I think that is fine. But to each their own.
Reply

tomtomsmom
03-08-2007, 05:11 PM
Originally Posted by ultimate truth
so dont any of the islamic sisters in here feel upset, or feel it is unfair to have your husband and some other women having sexual relationship in the room next door??? your ok with this?
The husband can't have another wife unless the first one agrees to it.
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
03-08-2007, 05:23 PM
Originally Posted by ultimate truth
so dont any of the islamic sisters in here feel upset, or feel it is unfair to have your husband and some other women having sexual relationship in the room next door??? your ok with this?
Well brother, if you're force fed this by certain men in high postions, what choice would a woman have? None. They're told it's right so shut up and obey (to be blunt)

Although I take note that Polgamy is not essential.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-08-2007, 05:30 PM
If we were upset, would we be telling u:? Your asking as if u want us to be...LOL!
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
03-08-2007, 05:41 PM
Originally Posted by Jazzy
If we were upset, would we be telling u:? Your asking as if u want us to be...LOL!
Could it be termed as ''brainwashed''? :p
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aamirsaab
03-08-2007, 05:44 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
...I do often hear it being called sexist, and that is an accurate accusation. It is sexist by definition.
I cannot see how.

It assigns gender roles hence its sexist...
With all due respect, this occurs regardless of religion, and certainly was the case in the west up until only a few decades ago, lest ye forget.

Personally that puts me off it, if a woman wants to do "manly" things and a man wants to do "womanly" things I think that is fine. But to each their own.
Of course. One simply has to remember though that there are limits/boundaries to everything e.g. there are no laws preventing women from working but biology gets in the way of men being able to give birth ;).
Islam in a nut shell is a set of rules and regulations, just like any other way of life.

Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Well brother, if you're force fed this by certain men in high postions, what choice would a woman have? None. They're told it's right so shut up and obey (to be blunt)
That is less to do with Islam, and more to do with the guy going on an ego trip :).
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-08-2007, 05:45 PM
Nope. I apologize if yall wish it was. Sorry to break your heart:rollseyes
Reply

- Qatada -
03-08-2007, 05:52 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Well brother, if you're force fed this by certain men in high postions, what choice would a woman have? None. They're told it's right so shut up and obey (to be blunt)

Although I take note that Polgamy is not essential.

Maybe your claim would hold weight if it was prohibited in your own religion? You continously keep saying its prohibited, yet its you who's blind following as you say somethings prohibited in your faith - without even having any evidence for that.
Reply

vpb
03-08-2007, 06:31 PM
fi sebililah,

be patient bro, till the command is brought by Allah swt to end up everything of this world, and we will see how they are going to behave when they face jahannam. they will not be able to make even one sujud for Allah swt.
Reply

tomtomsmom
03-08-2007, 06:59 PM
Ohhh I am so gonna get bashed for this.............

Men and women aren't equals and we don't have to be! We each have our own role to play. Can I go dig a ditch?? Suuure no problem. If I had to I would dig to China. But you can bet your last nickle that if my husband is there, he will be the one digging and I will be the one bringing him his sweet tea. I have no problem with this. Dishes need to be washed so I wash them. Trash needs to be taken out so he grabs the bag and does his job! This arguing back and forth is pointless. I can't understand why there are men saying that us women are so oppressed and we need to fight it when there are so many women here saying that WE LIKE THE WAY THINGS ARE!!! My husband is a muslim and not once, not even one time, has he ever tried to stop me from doing what I want to do. People say that women shouldn't so this or that because we are the more fragile of the two sexes. Well science has proven that even in the sperm state that the female sperm is stronger than the male sperm, they just swim faster than us:D. My point is.....why should women have to do the dirty work when that is what we have men for? Go to work, deal with the dangers of everyday life, take the trash out and kill the bugs!!!
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wilberhum
03-08-2007, 08:28 PM
Ho tomtomsmon, you are so busted.
I just scratched you off my “I think she is totally great” list. :raging: :D
Can I go dig a ditch?? Suuure no problem
But there is a problem if you are told you can’t dig the ditch. Even if ditch digging is the only way you can save tom from starving. You can’t dig the ditch, you have to witch your son die from starvation.
What if you lost your court case because your opponent was a man whose testimony was worth twice that of yours?
I have no problem with digging that ditch either. I doubt that I would hand my wife the shovel and I’m sure she would bring me a beer as I dig. But if I wasn’t capable of shoveling, I sure wouldn’t want her to be sent to jail for trying. That is nothing but sexist.
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- Qatada -
03-08-2007, 08:36 PM
But there is a problem if you are told you can’t dig the ditch. Even if ditch digging is the only way you can save tom from starving. You can’t dig the ditch, you have to witch your son die from starvation.
And who said that she can't dig the ditch?


What if you lost your court case because your opponent was a man whose testimony was worth twice that of yours?
Or how about being a woman who's husband commits adultery, he runs away with another woman and leaves the wife to lookafter the kids without no father? How come there's no objection to that?

I thought it was all women's rights?


I have no problem with digging that ditch either. I doubt that I would hand my wife the shovel and I’m sure she would bring me a beer as I dig. But if I wasn’t capable of shoveling, I sure wouldn’t want her to be sent to jail for trying. That is nothing but sexist.

There you go again, who said she would go jail?
Reply

tomtomsmom
03-08-2007, 09:17 PM
Ho tomtomsmon, you are so busted.
I just scratched you off my “I think she is totally great” list.
:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: Well I guess it was bound to happen sooner or later^o)


But there is a problem if you are told you can’t dig the ditch. Even if ditch digging is the only way you can save tom from starving. You can’t dig the ditch, you have to witch your son die from starvation.
What if you lost your court case because your opponent was a man whose testimony was worth twice that of yours?
I have no problem with digging that ditch either. I doubt that I would hand my wife the shovel and I’m sure she would bring me a beer as I dig. But if I wasn’t capable of shoveling, I sure wouldn’t want her to be sent to jail for trying. That is nothing but sexist.
Ohh hell yes there is a problem if I can't. But can you show me exactly where in Islam it says I can't? Can you show me where it says that I couldn't do that to feed my son. Which off-topic that is a pretty low blow.

People are so often confusing religion with cultural traditions. Just because certain places allow this sort of behaviour does not in any way make it be the way Islam is supposed to be.

Please don't get my words twisted. Under no circumstances should women be opressed, nor men. If a man wants to be a seamstress or any other "woman" job then so be it. But it is not the religion that is opressing women. It is men who distort the religion to suit what they want it to be.
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wilberhum
03-08-2007, 09:57 PM
tomtomsmom
Under no circumstances should women be opressed, nor men. If a man wants to be a seamstress or any other "woman" job then so be it.
Thanks, you are back on my list. :D
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wilberhum
03-08-2007, 10:01 PM
Fi_Sabilillah
Once the door is opened to inequality and discrimination it becomes too easy to open it further. It is best to shut the door to inequality. At least that's my openion.
Reply

Woodrow
03-08-2007, 10:40 PM
Islam does not say a Woman can not work, it says she can not be forced to. Plus if she does decide to work, any money she earns is under her full control and she has not obligation to do anything with it except what she wants to, as long as she does not spend it for haram purposes.
Reply

wilberhum
03-08-2007, 11:03 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Fi_Sabilillah
Once the door is opened to inequality and discrimination it becomes too easy to open it further. It is best to shut the door to inequality. At least that's my openion.
Interesting. After this statement I saw:
Iranian women struggle for equality
I think that is kind of supports what I was saying.
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Talha777
03-08-2007, 11:04 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Islam does not say a Woman can not work
Assalamu alaikum. Well it depends on what kind of work. Obviously women's first duty is her home, kitchen, and taking care of her children and doing the chores for her husband. But this new trend I am beginning to see of women going to university and getting degrees for white collar jobs, etc., is frankly very distressing.

And stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display, like that of the former Times of Ignorance (33:33)

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Pygoscelis
03-08-2007, 11:28 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Islam does not say a Woman can not work, it says she can not be forced to. Plus if she does decide to work, any money she earns is under her full control and she has not obligation to do anything with it except what she wants to, as long as she does not spend it for haram purposes.

Which is why its sexist. It doesn't afford the same privilege to men.
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AvarAllahNoor
03-08-2007, 11:37 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Maybe your claim would hold weight if it was prohibited in your own religion? You continously keep saying its prohibited, yet its you who's blind following as you say somethings prohibited in your faith - without even having any evidence for that.
It's just been proved to you in the other thread brother! As much as you want it to be permissable in Sikhi, it's not! Allah knows best, we just obey.:D
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AvarAllahNoor
03-08-2007, 11:41 PM
Originally Posted by Talha777

Assalamu alaikum. Well it depends on what kind of work. Obviously women's first duty is her home, kitchen, and taking care of her children and doing the chores for her husband. But this new trend I am beginning to see of women going to university and getting degrees for white collar jobs, etc., is frankly very distressing.

And stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display, like that of the former Times of Ignorance (33:33)
lol - I'm glad they've seen sense and realised Allah has given them the same opportunity men do....
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Uthman
03-08-2007, 11:44 PM
:sl:

One of the first things that I show any person who accuses Islam of degrading the status of women is this extract from Muhammad's (pbuh) last sermon:

O People,
It is true that you have certain rights in regard to your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives, only under Allah's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them, for they are your partners and committed helpers. And it is your right that they do not make friends with anyone of whom you do not approve, as well as never to be unchaste.

Ok, carry on. :)

:w:
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wilberhum
03-08-2007, 11:46 PM
Why would a woman working be "distressing"?
If a woman can't work and earn money she will have to stay under the control of a male who can.

Oh now I get it. A woman controling her own life. That is "distressing".
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AvarAllahNoor
03-08-2007, 11:49 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Why would a woman working be "distressing"?
If a woman can't work and earn money she will have to stay under the control of a male who can.

Oh now I get it. A woman controling her own life. That is "distressing".
LOL- It's infuriating isn't it? But i think a woman should be allowed to work if she so wishes. Should be a choice, rather than be told she's not to.
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- Qatada -
03-09-2007, 12:08 AM
It's so shocking isn't it? A woman doesn't need to work and her husband has to provide for her. Wow, that's so distressing. Kinda reminds me of the 'freedom of women' over this last century, and how they were treated as properties of their husbands, and had to change their surnames to become his property.

Now that things are so advanced, she can actually work herself! And not just that.. wait for it! he can even have an affair with another man so she can support her own children with that money she earns!


Kool! i'm living in such an advanced time?
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AvarAllahNoor
03-09-2007, 12:12 AM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
It's so shocking isn't it? A woman doesn't need to work and her husband has to provide for her. Wow, that's so distressing. Kinda reminds me of the 'freedom of women' over this last century, and how they were treated as properties of their husbands, and had to change their surnames to become his property.

Now that things are so advanced, she can actually work herself! And not just that.. wait for it! he can even have an affair with another man so she can support her own children with that money she earns!


Kool! i'm living in such an advanced time?
LOL! - Love the sarcasm brother! - We follow what we believe to be true. We're always going to see things from different angles. :statisfie

Gur Fateh
Reply

wilberhum
03-09-2007, 12:13 AM
Fi_Sabilillah
I thought better of you. I never thought you would distort the facts to such an degree.
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- Qatada -
03-09-2007, 12:16 AM
wilberhum, i never thought you were like that either. Maybe if you had an open mind for what we say, maybe we would do the same. However, it always seems like a one sided thing.

Anyway that's the reality, and we all know it. Yet some claim that today women have the most rights. Which really isn't the case.


Regards.
Reply

Uthman
03-09-2007, 12:23 AM
:sl:

Coincidentally, I came across the following article quite recently dealing with this topic: http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id...tionid=3510212
It isn't excessively long so please take the time to read it as it is very informative, written by a Muslim woman herself.

This actually brings me a point that I would like to make. That is, why do certain non-muslims feel the need to complain on the Muslim womans behalf? All the Muslim females that I have encountered dealing with this topic seem perfectly happy with the rules of Islam regarding.

I also wish to stress the point that both sides of this debate stem from different world views. The Islamic laws regarding gender are probably very alien to the 'westerner', and I would ask Muslims to understand that. By the same token, I think non-Muslims should understand that the western attitude to gender roles would be equally as alien to a Muslim who has not been brought up in the west.


Finally, I would like to remind the Muslim members taking part in this debate and in any other debate not to lose their temper and to remain respectful. Before saying anything, I always find it useful to think about Muhammad (pbuh) would approve of my saying it in that way.

And remember, "Speak a good word, or remain silent" - Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

:w:
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chris4336
03-09-2007, 12:33 AM
I just want to remind those who find the idea of Muslim women working "distressing" I would just like to point out that the Prophet's first wife, and one of the best Muslims who ever lived, ran her own successful business. She helped to finance his prophecy that brought Islam to the people.
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Muslim Woman
03-09-2007, 02:23 AM


Salaam/peace,

non-Muslims have so many misconception about polygamy. Let me try to explain.


1. Islam did not introduce it.

2. There was no maximum limit for taking wives in the past. Solomon (p) the wise had 1000 wives & concubines . Islam put a maximum limit with a strict condition......4 wives if can act justly.


3. It's not a must for a Muslim woman to tolerate co-wife. She can go for divorce .


4. polygamy is not a must......allowed if necessary. I wrote in other thread how a non-Muslim writer proudly wrote a book about his few dozens affairs. There he claimed that he is still capable of having young girlfriends. Islam does not allow this kind of illegal wives.


5. A woman can put a bar in her marriage contract that husband can't take another wife. In that case , her husband must divorce her first ; so that she does not have share him with other wife.


6. Pl. keep in mind that Islam is a practical religion. The fact is man made law pushing men to go for adultery . Many men are not satistfied with one wife; so they are having unethical relationships . Many women are sharing husband with UNLIMITED illegal wives . When Muslim women
( not all ) are sharing husband with limited legal wives.


God commanded us to avoid illegal affairs. So , allowed polygamy if necessary . those who are happy with 1 wife , u don't have to go for other wife .....Islam does not say so ;


so , why the unnecessay criticism ?
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AbuAbdallah
03-09-2007, 03:35 AM
salaam,

I think the only cases where it would be distressing for a woman to work would be if she was mixing with men, or if she was sending the kids to a babysitter.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-09-2007, 03:36 AM
No amount of proof will change such a persons mind and heart, even if it was all at their feet. Allah seals the heart of whom He wishes. Those who do not want to believe, Allah does not guide. Simple as that. I really think this thread has served its purpose more than enough and more than once. Its really repetitive.

Peace
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Malaikah
03-09-2007, 06:19 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Fi_Sabilillah
I thought better of you. I never thought you would distort the facts to such an degree.
When it comes to distorting facts in this thread, you take the gold medal.

p.s. tomtomsmom, your posts rocked! :D
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aamirsaab
03-09-2007, 03:17 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Which is why its sexist. It doesn't afford the same privilege to men.
I already explained this. No law or system is going to be unsexist because there are fundemental differences between the two gender. Treating both genders as if they are the same is sexist, because you wouldn't take into account that there are differences between men and women e.g. men have standing up toilets, women do not. Women have pregnancy tests, men do not. Comprendes?
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
03-09-2007, 03:24 PM
:sl:

For those that feel that Islam is sexist etc, this lecture is for you. It'll only take an hour of your time, if your're sincere in learning.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...&q=yasir+qadhi
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wilberhum
03-09-2007, 07:13 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
wilberhum, i never thought you were like that either. Maybe if you had an open mind for what we say, maybe we would do the same. However, it always seems like a one sided thing.

Anyway that's the reality, and we all know it. Yet some claim that today women have the most rights. Which really isn't the case.


Regards.
Fi_Sabilillah
But I’m the "Ignorant Kafir", any you are one of the “Good Guys”.

I’m reasonably “Open Minded”, but I do have my exceptions.
• We don’t live in a black and white world. In complex disagreements there are two sides and neither is entirely right and the other entirely wrong. Nor has every thing one side done been good and everything the other side has done is evil. And whether an action is good or bad is not based on who does it.
• Also, a simple equation: Inequality = Immoral. Any deviation in legal rights that differ based on religion, gender, or race is immoral. Period.

Yet some claim that today women have the most rights
When you say “Rights”, are you talking legal rights or are you talking about privileges?
What “Legal Rights” have women of the West lost?

Wilber
Reply

wilberhum
03-09-2007, 07:17 PM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl:

I already explained this. No law or system is going to be unsexist because there are fundemental differences between the two gender. Treating both genders as if they are the same is sexist, because you wouldn't take into account that there are differences between men and women e.g. men have standing up toilets, women do not. Women have pregnancy tests, men do not. Comprendes?
You have so little insite and make silly sweeping statements. Tell me a valid law that requires the mention of gender. Standing up toilets and pregency test have nothing to do with rights. No law says I can not have a pregency test.
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Talha777
03-09-2007, 07:20 PM
We don’t live in a black and white world. In complex disagreements there are two sides and neither is entirely right and the other entirely wrong
That's what Satan wants you to believe. He wants to twist the Straight Path which Allah has set for us.

Inequality = Immoral. Any deviation in legal rights that differ based on religion, gender, or race is immoral. Period.
But I thought you said we don't live in a black and white world?
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wilberhum
03-09-2007, 07:24 PM
That's what Satan wants you to believe. He wants to twist the Straight Path which Allah has set for us.
Well Satan made a believer out of me. :?
Woops, I don't believe in Satan. :D
Why do I keep getting soooooooooooooooo confused. :-[
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Umm Yoosuf
03-09-2007, 07:29 PM
:sl:

If there was gender inequality in Islam we (Muslim women) should be complaining but we are not. Therefore, this gender inequality you ask about does not exist. Endless evidence and explanations are offered to you, but if you fail to understand, that is up to you. Believe what you like, but as a Muslim woman, I am content with my religion as Islam. It provides me with all the rights I need Alhamdulilaah :)
Reply

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