Did Jesus of the Bible sin?

I don't see the assimilation that you've made of atheists questioning who created the creator and God begetting himself as a good analogy. The very premise is faulty...

one questions the fabric of causality, the other questions your common sense!

cheers

format_quote Originally Posted by john316

like the athiest say if God created us who created God? If Jesus was begotten did he have a beginning? No. All of Jesus is in God and all of God is in Jesus. One God One Lord. Well God/Jesus/Spirit are omniscient omnipotent omnieverything I would say. Well as a human I have only so much knowledge about heaven. But when we get there we will know better.

Sadly, it will be a long futile journey as long as you continue to commit the unforgivable sin of shirk.

4:170. O people! surely the Messenger has come to you with the truth from your Lord, therefore believe, (it shall be) good for you and If you disbelieve, then surely whatever is in the heavens and the earth is Allah's; and Allah is Knowing, Wise. P Y C
4:171. O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only a messenger of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His messengers, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one Allah; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector. P Y C

4:172. The Messiah does by no means disdain that he should be a servant of Allah, nor do the angels who are near to Him, and whoever disdains His service and is proud, He will gather them all together to Himself. P Y C


Shakir's Quran Translation

9:30. And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away! P Y C
9:31. They have taken their doctors of law and their monks for lords besides Allah, and (also) the Messiah son of Marium and they were enjoined that they should serve one Allah only, there is no god but He; far from His glory be what they set up (with Him). P Y C

Shakir's Quran Translation

It is true that some Christians and some Jews will also gain heaven, but I do not know the specific conditions under which that can be met.

2:62. Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve. P Y C


Shakir's Quran Translation

format_quote Originally Posted by john316

that is your unforgivable according to your Islamic theology. According to Christianity the only sin that God doesnt forgive is unwillingness to accept his forgiveness.

lol so what are you saying?? Your unforgivable sin is better than Islam's unforgivable sin? neener neener neener

You say your salvation is based on doctrine that was never known before Jesus, was preached by ONE, self-appointed apostle, Paul, but was never accepted until 325 years later at the Council of Nicea, is in no way able to be explained logically, (even though God says He's not the author of confusion), and by not believing in this doctrine, never taught by Jesus, or any other CHOSEN prophet of God, you can't obtain heaven.

Islam says what all chosen prophets of God said, There is only ONE God. Not accepting that and praying to and worshiping anything/anyone other than God is unforgivable.

Now, God Almighty being the creator of man is well aware of our limited abilities and we don't come close to knowing what He knows. Yet, you want us to believe God gave us a doctrine so illogical, so confusing, so unfair that no one has been able to grasp it fully and must rely on blind faith in order to obtain salvation??? So He made us and gave us limited knowledge and ability but made our salvation impossible to understand. Is this just? What a cruel thing to do?

In Islam, we are told over and over how much Allah, swt, LOVES to forgive and all we have to do is turn to Him in prayer asking. All He asks is that we not pray to anyone except Him. Simple, logical, easy to understand and most important, FAIR and JUST....exactly what you would expect from your creator and exactly what was taught by ALL Prophets of God!

Hana

format_quote Originally Posted by john316

like the athiest say if God created us who created God? If Jesus was begotten did he have a beginning? No. All of Jesus is in God and all of God is in Jesus. One God One Lord. Well God/Jesus/Spirit are omniscient omnipotent omnieverything I would say. Well as a human I have only so much knowledge about heaven. But when we get there we will know better.

The difference is God told us He has always been...no beginning, no end, not created. However, we are given full details of the creation, of Jesus, pbuh. Born of Mary, raised by her from the day He was born. God simply said, "be", just as Adam was created, (another biblical figure born without parents!). Did you notice how many biblical figures were born without benefit of parents...yet Jesus, pbuh, is not included in that number. David was called the begotten son...why not worship him? So, you can try to juggle words, (words that are not found in the oldest manuscripts), but you can never make them fit because it is not logical, and God is not the author of confusion.

We all know Jesus, was not "omnieverything". He was born normally, did not have the knowledge of God, (ie: not knowing the date and time of the last day, or when a tree should produce fruit, etc., etc., etc.), was limited in what He could do, (on His own He can do nothing), He prayed to a higher power, etc.

You're right, as a human you do not have full knowledge of heaven and the last day...just as Jesus, pbuh, did not.

Hana

format_quote Originally Posted by john316

I personally think that the verse merely represents Melchizedek's not being a priesthood holder because of lineage probably "without descent" meaning not a descendent of Levi as required by Mosaic Law. Jesus was not a descendant of Levi. But his ordaination comes from God the Most High.

What you personally think???

Will you also be writing a book and inserting it into the bible to share your thoughts on the matter? Or perhaps you will just re-write a couple of the verses that are already present to include what you personally think? Seems to me, this is how all this mess started in the first place. Too many people over the past 2000 took liberties with inserting their "personal thoughts" into the books of the bible.

No offense, but your personal opinion doesn't override the words of God, nor are they equal.

Hana

All the prophets of God spoke not for themselves but they spoke for God and His Christ. Nor did any of them consider themsves to be greater than other. Moses, Elijah, Isaiah all humbled themselves before God and did not consider themselves to be greater than one another. John the Baptist did not consider himself to be greater than Jesus. He spoke for God and for Christ. Jesus spoke for God and did God's will by giving God's free gift of eternal life to them that believe. Chrsitians lost their lives for their profession in Christ before Christianity became legalised in the roman empire. Why would saints give their lives for the resurrection which muslims hold to be a lie.

The prophet in Duet 18;18 is Jesus.

When David said "The LORD said to my Lord" he was calling Jesus Lord. even though he is an ancsetor of Jesus.

First born what does it mean. In God's kingdom He has no second borns. if that be the case where he had second brons then there would be partiality. All who do his perfect and pleasing will be treated by Him like He is among His first born.

format_quote Originally Posted by john316

what makes you think that I am using my thoughts to overide the Bible...I dont my thought are alwasys right and others are wrong. But things like these are minor issues. God's message is clear and concise.


TURN OR BURN

Turn or Burn?? LOOOOL Did you learn that from Jesus? Please provide the chapter and verse. Sounds like you're getting a little frustrated, John316.

What makes me think you are using your thoughts? Hmmm, good question, I really don't, except when you said, You PERSONALLY think a verse means something. It only matters what God meant...not what you THINK it means. See the difference???

Hana

format_quote Originally Posted by john316

All the prophets of God spoke not for themselves but they spoke for God and His Christ. Nor did any of them consider themsves to be greater than other. Moses, Elijah, Isaiah all humbled themselves before God and did not consider themselves to be greater than one another. John the Baptist did not consider himself to be greater than Jesus. He spoke for God and for Christ. Jesus spoke for God and did God's will by giving God's free gift of eternal life to them that believe. Chrsitians lost their lives for their profession in Christ before Christianity became legalised in the roman empire. Why would saints give their lives for the resurrection which muslims hold to be a lie.

The prophet in Duet 18;18 is Jesus.

When David said "The LORD said to my Lord" he was calling Jesus Lord. even though he is an ancsetor of Jesus.

First born what does it mean. In God's kingdom He has no second borns. if that be the case where he had second brons then there would be partiality. All who do his perfect and pleasing will be treated by Him like He is among His first born.

The Prophet in Deut. 18:18 cannot be Jesus. We already know the Jews, in the lifetime of Jesus, were still waiting for 3 different prophesies to come true.

They were waiting for the return of Elijah, waiting for the Christ (which they didn't believe was Jesus), and waiting for the Prophet mentioned in Deut. That's THREE different identities. When they asked John who he was he said he was not the Christ, the Jews asked if he was Elijah returned and he said no, they then asked if he was THAT prophet. We know he was A prophet, but he denied being THAT prophet spoke of in Deut. So, you can see clearly there are THREE individual prophesies so the Prophet like Moses is separate and distinct from the Christ. So, who then, is the Prophet in Deut. 18?

As Muslims, we already know the answer.

As Muslims we absolutely deny the resurrection. Outside of Pauline doctrine in the bible, give me ONE, non Christian account of this amazing, tremendous, eternal life-saving event. Give me one non-Christian account of the hundreds of rotting corpses that walked the streets that day. There is no historical evidence that supports it. According to the bible hundreds saw it happen, but not even the enemies of Jesus thought to write one word about it. Wouldn't you expect a mass conversion to follow Christ after such a display?

Paul was never trusted or accepted by the true followers of Christ and was always accused of teaching false doctrine. It was also the reason he was eventually killed.

That's only part of the reason we do not and cannot accept this event as truth.

Now to quote you, "turn or burn"...is that right? it cracks me up.

Peace,
Hana

format_quote Originally Posted by john316

like the athiest say if God created us who created God? If Jesus was begotten did he have a beginning? No. All of Jesus is in God and all of God is in Jesus. One God One Lord. Well God/Jesus/Spirit are omniscient omnipotent omnieverything I would say. Well as a human I have only so much knowledge about heaven. But when we get there we will know better.

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

IF that's why you claim about Jesus, then why do you lie and say that he died? :eek:

dying pretty much sounds like "an end" to me!

i'm guessing that you just change it to suit your purposes, eh?

format_quote Originally Posted by john316

not just Paul but other disciples who were with Christ. Many Jews left the old way of worship and accepted Christ. 50 million lost their lives for Christ.....need I say anything more.

lol, yeah, prove it. What other disciples? 50 million??? hmmm, and how many non Christians did they slaughter along the way?

There's lots more you could say, and you should because making a blanket statement without proof is useless.

Hana

format_quote Originally Posted by john316

TURN OR BURN

Luke 13:1-9
1There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.

2And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?

3I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

4Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

5I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

6He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.

7Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?

8And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:

9And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down

Exactly what I expected...thanks for not disappointing me.

It's scary following Johns 'Religion' because his 'God' is full of wrath!