Sinning

**4-Christ-Alone** · 06-03-2006

I See you all woner wat sins are unforgiven to your God? I am new to the muslim faith and i dont ever intend to follow it. I am a firm believer in Christ Jesus, and that he was the son of God and the saviour to all men.

Im sure most of you know the basis of christianity, we believe our God is the true living God as do you, and that our God is all perfect and sinless, that he cannot look upon sin, guess what man sinned! Oh no boy are we in trouble? going agaisnt an all mighty God who quite frankly, alough he is loving and merciful, has to punish. But God said to himself, i dont want to punish them because they fall, so he sent Jesus Christ, his only begotten son (John 3:16), that whoever believed in his name, should not perish but have everlasting life.

Now this makes sense to me, but this is not why i choose to follow christ, i like the story of superman but i dnt follow him, i decided to follow christ when he called me and i felt that supernatural feeling as accepting him as my lord and saviour and the son of God, Now any1 can say what they want about God or Jesus, about if they exsist, or who they really were, but no1 can ever take away the feelings and emotions Jesus has given me over my time as a christian, no1 can take away my testimony.

So anyway back to the point, if a man rapes a woman, shud the court say, ""there is no punishment for this crime if u say u will repent from it"" no! thats not acceptable, the man should be punished. So what i am asking is, does allah punish sin? if he does, we are all in big trouble and hes not a merciful God, but if he doesnt, ow can a God so good look upon unclean souls as us men? Jesus paid the punishment, My God loves me, and every1 of you, despite what u believe, forgive me for preaching. Take care! :-)

**4-Christ-Alone** · 06-17-2006

are you asking me or makiing a point? to me the bible is a simple message of the true God almighty, the gospel of Christ is simple to me, and the trinity is simple to me.

God bless

**Isa Abdullah** · 06-17-2006

bismillah

"It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong)."

Surah Al-Imran 3

The Law that was given to Moses(as) and the Gospel which was bestowed upon the Beloved Isa ibn Maryam. (Jesus son of Mary.)

**Isa Abdullah** · 06-17-2006

Originally Posted by 4-Christ-Alone

are you asking me or makiing a point? to me the bible is a simple message of the true God almighty, the gospel of Christ is simple to me, and the trinity is simple to me.

God bless

Dear Brother,

I am asking you.

Peace, Shaheed Isa Abdullah.

**4-Christ-Alone** · 06-17-2006

there is nothing complicated about it to me. i find the message easy to understand.

Explain what about it complicates you?

And i dont know anything about the bible being changed, but ive heard of it. is there any proof of this?

God bless

**Isa Abdullah** · 06-18-2006

bismillah

i have studied the Christian religion and I understand where it is coming from and its view on salvaton and atonement, but the fact is that it does not add up. The salvation formula that your religion propagates is not from the Jewish Bible.

The Bible has been modified. This is documented. Certain verses were interpolated. You can even see this is the case with the books rewritten by Martin Luther. Who decared certain books as irrelevant.

How do you see the Bible? Is it inerrant?

**4-Christ-Alone** · 06-22-2006

Can you show me some conclusive proof that the bible has been modified. And do the original copies of the koran exsist? i dont think so?

I cant make full sense of christiaity, and if im honest i can make any of islam, thats my personal view. understand it ws written hundreds of years after the bible and to me just looks to me in ways as a copy of it.

This is what i believe

Jesus came and died, victory over sin!

Satan saw what had happened, and wanted a way to distract people from this truth, wat better way than to create a similar religion, but without the most important thing in christianity, the one way to God, Jesus Christ as saviour! And sorry if i offend here but i think its to important to not say, i think satan is laughing at islam, and the other religions, addictions, broken lifes, and everything else that distracts people from the one way to God, Jesus Christ.

This might mean nothing to any of you, but some1 might read my words and have convictions bye the holy spirit and be lead to Christ, so if it makes 1 person think about what they believe, ikt was worth being banned, or even losing rep

I dont perticularly like people attacking the bible, but if no-one did i would be worried. If there was no attack on our religion i wud wonder where satan was, and think wait a minute if theres a devil against me why is this so easy? or why does no-one bother questionig this.

But anyway God bless

**4-Christ-Alone** · 06-22-2006

i CAN make full sens of christianity*****

bad spelling

**Woodrow** · 06-22-2006

Originally Posted by 4-Christ-Alone

Can you show me some conclusive proof that the bible has been modified. And do the original copies of the koran exsist? i dont think so?

I cant make full sense of christiaity, and if im honest i can make any of islam, thats my personal view. understand it ws written hundreds of years after the bible and to me just looks to me in ways as a copy of it.

This is what i believe

Jesus came and died, victory over sin!

Satan saw what had happened, and wanted a way to distract people from this truth, wat better way than to create a similar religion, but without the most important thing in christianity, the one way to God, Jesus Christ as saviour! And sorry if i offend here but i think its to important to not say, i think satan is laughing at islam, and the other religions, addictions, broken lifes, and everything else that distracts people from the one way to God, Jesus Christ.

This might mean nothing to any of you, but some1 might read my words and have convictions bye the holy spirit and be lead to Christ, so if it makes 1 person think about what they believe, ikt was worth being banned, or even losing rep

I dont perticularly like people attacking the bible, but if no-one did i would be worried. If there was no attack on our religion i wud wonder where satan was, and think wait a minute if theres a devil against me why is this so easy? or why does no-one bother questionig this.

But anyway God bless

I cant make full sense of christiaity, and if im honest i can make any of islam, thats my personal view. understand it ws written hundreds of years after the bible and to me just looks to me in ways as a copy of it.

If the Qur'an truly is the word of God(swt), which we believe. Shouldn't it have the same TRUTHs that are still retained in the Bible? Is it not possible that the reason there are differences is because the differences were what was changed by man?

Stop and think for a minute. Look at Muhammad(saw), was he a man with sufficient knowledge and education to have copied the Bible? Did Mohammad(saw) seek personal gain or glory from the Qur'an?

If it does not seem probable that Mohammad copied the Bible to write the Qur'an, were did the words come from?

**cihad** · 06-22-2006

Is faith enough?

i don't think so.
Any Tom ,sam or harry cud have ritten a book and said 'just have faith'.

that is why we have proof

**Isa Abdullah** · 06-22-2006

Originally Posted by 4-Christ-Alone

Can you show me some conclusive proof that the bible has been modified. And do the original copies of the koran exsist? i dont think so?

I cant make full sense of christiaity, and if im honest i can make any of islam, thats my personal view. understand it ws written hundreds of years after the bible and to me just looks to me in ways as a copy of it.

This is what i believe

Jesus came and died, victory over sin!

Satan saw what had happened, and wanted a way to distract people from this truth, wat better way than to create a similar religion, but without the most important thing in christianity, the one way to God, Jesus Christ as saviour! And sorry if i offend here but i think its to important to not say, i think satan is laughing at islam, and the other religions, addictions, broken lifes, and everything else that distracts people from the one way to God, Jesus Christ.

This might mean nothing to any of you, but some1 might read my words and have convictions bye the holy spirit and be lead to Christ, so if it makes 1 person think about what they believe, ikt was worth being banned, or even losing rep

I dont perticularly like people attacking the bible, but if no-one did i would be worried. If there was no attack on our religion i wud wonder where satan was, and think wait a minute if theres a devil against me why is this so easy? or why does no-one bother questionig this.

But anyway God bless

bismillah

Peace,

You know, before I digress I would like to praise Allaah (ta'ala) for this discussion and dialogue, there definitely needs to be more of it.

Now, regarding conclusive proof. What more proof do I need than history. The ancient manuscripts studied meticulously by Biblical scholars through biblical exegesis. Proofs that verses were interpolated and modified through the copying process by scribes. Think of Marcion. Who created his own cannon with special emphasis on the God of the Jews and the God of Jesus(p) being different warring Gods. He used only the NT epistles and excluded the Jewish Bible completely. Think of the tampering of Martin Luther when he wrote his bible. Ponder on Athanasius writing to the churches in Egypt in which books he thought should compile the complete bible?

The point is: The 73 books of the Catholic Bible and the 66 books of the Protestants illustrates another schism altogether. Who decides what is the Word of God? Who dares to change the words of God? If it is indeed the Word of God. With the many inconsistencies in the Bible, one is to question the very validity of such a text. Even if it is small things such as numerical descriptions, contradicting accounts of the supposed crucifixion, one has to ponder. If satan can decieve people in little matters, can he do so in big matters?

Allaah (God) tells us in the Qur'an: "Nor did the People of the Book make schisms, until after there came to them Clear Evidence."

Regarding the Qur'an, do we have the originals? What do you mean the leaves and inanimate objects it was composed on? No. Merely, writing things down does not guarantee it is safely guarded. Having a 1400+ year old book, memorized in the minds of 1000's is different. Whilst, being written down. Allaah (God) has told us that the Qur'an will be preserved. And it is continually memorized in the minds of 10'000's today. The early Christians were illiterate and their manuscripts were copied by scribes who were not of the highest caliber, while at the same time, composed years and years after the departure of Jesus, son of Mary(as). There is a difference, brother.

Secondly, regarding satan making a similar religion to Christianity to decieve other that do not believe in Jesus (as) as Lord and Savior, or believe he was merely a Prophet of God Almighty, or anything else other than the redeeming sacrifice, is ludacris. What about the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seven Day Adventists. Even though they differ in doctrine here and there, are they saved? What of the early Christians who differed in the most fundamentals of their beliefs i.e. Basilidians, Docetae, Marcionite gospel, etc.

Additionally, there were similar accounts of savior-gods coming down from the heavens to liberate humanity from the bondage of sin and an everlasting torment, i.e. Mithras, Osirus,

You see, the excuse you provided that satan used Islam and all other faiths to deter humanity from accepting the Christian teaching of Jesus' sacrifice, is not an answer, but a cop-out. The early pagans rejected Christianity because they had their own savior-gods to believe in. The blood-atonement, the 12 disciples, etc. They challenged the early Christian theologians with this argument. And they gave the same rebuttal, "All the other savior-gods were false. Satan created them to cloud the minds of men, because he knew the true sacrifice of Jesus Christ was underway."

Regarding, attacking the Bible, I am not one for Blind faith. Does not your book, tell you to, "PROVE ALL THINGS". I do not like to merely attack other's Holy Books without some legitimate reason. However, Allaah (God) does not make mistakes and he is above all we attribute to Him.

All faiths attack other's religious books. Even those without a faith to believe in attack religious people who believe in God. However, the followers of God attack one another. Paradoxical isn't it? Yet true. Allaah (God) is the only saviour and it is to Him and Him alone we pray.

Peace, Shaheed Isa Abdullah

**Isa Abdullah** · 06-22-2006

Woodrow said:

"If the Qur'an truly is the word of God(swt), which we believe. Shouldn't it have the same TRUTHs that are still retained in the Bible? Is it not possible that the reason there are differences is because the differences were what was changed by man?"

bismillahir rahmanir rahim
alhamdulilla rabbil'alamin
la ilaha ilallah
Muhammadur rasulullah

These arguments are age old. They have arisen from haters of Islam. And have been rightly refuted by the scholars of this deen.

That was a very good reply. The Qur'an, recognizes itself as a "REMINDER". What was pure in the religions of the old, but were smeared by the minds of men.

The Qur'an says to believe in Jesus, son of Mary (as) and all Prophets (as) and "WE HEAR AND OBEY". However, even though we believe, Allaah (God) constantly gives us the reminder, to reflect, to ponder, etc. He wants us to think.

"This is the book whereof there is no doubt for those who fear Allaah (God)"

There are similarities between many faiths: Sikhism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Jainism, etc... Is it possible that they all originated from one Lord. The Lord of the worlds, and through time became mixed with fallacy? Good point Woodrow!

**Umar001** · 06-23-2006

Originally Posted by Isa Abdullah

Muslims, believe that their were original messages that were given to all the prophets (pbut) of all nations. Some came with merely oral messages, others came with books. The Jewish Bible as we have today as well as the NT are not considered the pure revelations they once were.

so akhi are you telling me that the Original Gospels freshly written by The AUTHORS of Mark Matthew Luke and John are G-ds word? and that the ORIGINAL letters by Paul are G-ds word?

**Isa Abdullah** · 06-23-2006

bismillah

When Allaah (ta'ala) sent the message to Musa (as) it was pure. It was a revelation. When it was composed by scribes after Musa (as) it was not that pure revelation. I am not saying the Jewish Bible we Have today is inspired. Whatever the Qur'an says is the truth and if the Bible has that, that remained intact. If not, that is where the message went astray. Tha samething with the NT. Nothing is divinely inspired, however, what coincides with the Qur'an, we can say was correct in the NT.

The Bible we have today has no divine authority.