Christian Trinity and Muslim's Tauwheed [monotheism] = Same God? A Clarification.

[Grace Seeker]

Does this not really reflect the true opinion of Christians?

Of some, but certainly not all. There is not a monolithic view regarding Islam within Christianity, individuals are all over the place.

 

[MustafaMc]

As for whether Christians believe Muslims worship the same God, that is probably all over the map. I personally think that Christians and Muslims do worship the same God. Others would agree or disagree with that opinion.

Personally, I agree with you - for one thing there is only One God, but our understanding of that Divine Being is different. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that most Christians are of the opinion that Muslims have an "incomplete" concept of God because we reject the divinity of Jesus (as). Likewise, most Muslims are of the opinion that Christians believe in the One God (the Father), but they associate others (most notably, Jesus) with that One God in their worship.

As for the radio broadcast in question, I find that to be a combative and unproductive expression of faith. I've personally never heard of this guy, but his opinion does represent the opinion of quite a few people I'm sure. However, I'm not sure I would make some grand declaration that it represents the "true opinion of Christians."

Thank you for acknowledging that a sizable portion of Americans probably would agree with this person. I agree with you that it does not represent the opinion of all Christians.

 

[MustafaMc]

Believe it or not, this David Jeremiah preached a pretty accurate portrayal of Islamic faith and practices to his congregation in another video clip except for the parts where he was trying to distinguish Islam from Christianity. I think that he went overboard in this sense along the lines of Pat Robertson, Jimmy Swaggert and Franklin Graham.

 

[Grace Seeker]

David Jeremiah IS a well-known and generally respected Christian author and pastor. I have not just heard of him, but listened to his radio show and have even had people in my church want to teach from his books. As a Bible scholar I think he is probably one of the better-informed preacher/teachers. But I don't agree with him regarding everything, among them he takes a Calvinist approach to theology It appears that his view regarding the origins of Islam is another. My concern would not be so much that he is stating what some already believe, but rather that because he, a respected teacher, states it that more who did not previously believe might now believe it as well.

 

[MustafaMc]

My concern would not be so much that he is stating what some already believe, but rather that because he, a respected teacher, states it that more who did not previously believe might now believe it as well.

I agree with you. It makes one wonder what is the objective for such public preaching against Islam. My opinion is that the Christian leaders either feel threatened by Islam (unlikely) or that they are part of a larger scheme to demonize Islam and all Muslims as "The Enemy".

 

[جوري]

I agree with you. It makes one wonder what is the objective for such public preaching against Islam. My opinion is that the Christian leaders either feel threatened by Islam (unlikely) or that they are part of a larger scheme to demonize Islam and all Muslims as "The Enemy".

It is a little of both I believe... Given how Christianity has fallen out of favor for very obvious reasons... one which its centuries long resistance to science. people aren't as uninformed as they once were, and secondly because the theology itself is at odds with reason and human nature.. thus the most likely course for it to take is demonize the only contender it sees in hopes that it will be the only thing standing to gain means into the 'kingdom of God'...

 

[Grace Seeker]

My opinion is that the Christian leaders either feel threatened by Islam (unlikely) or that they are part of a larger scheme to demonize Islam and all Muslims as "The Enemy".

I suspect that both are true also, though for different reasons than cited above.

I think that many in American society are indeed fearful of certain aspects of Islam and that that fear now colors every aspect of their view of Islam. Secondly, I know that there are many within Christianity, primarily fundamentalists, but perhaps even some others who have long had a practice of demonizing anything that was foreign to their own experience. It could be the Rock music, people who worshipped at churches of different denominations, people who prayed by raising their hands and shouting "Hallelujah!", people who didn't pray by raising their hands and shouting "Halleluah!". So while it saddens me, it doesn't surprise me that there might be some in the church that would try to demonize Islam, just for its differentness. That Islam is also theologically incorrect (at least from the Christian point-of-view) makes this process all the easier -- just witness the treatment of Native American religion in this country which is consider occult in nature by some Christian groups if you want to see how this process has been a part of American history.

 

[MustafaMc]

What really surprised me about this person's blatant attack on Islam with lies and misinformation was that the person seemed so knowledgeable about Islam in his video clip. I could understand if he had stated that the Islamic concept of Allah is more similar to the Jewish concept of Jehovah than it is to the Christian concept of Trinity, but his statement of Allah being selected by Muhammad (saaws) from among 360 pagan lunar gods was just outright lies and deceit on his part.

 

[Grace Seeker]

his statement of Allah being selected by Muhammad (saaws) from among 360 pagan lunar gods was just outright lies and deceit on his part.

I'm afraid that this idea has been published so much, that like fears in response to hoaxes about the FCC trying to shut down Christian radio, a certain number of people are going to be deluded into believing this. I hate to tell you how many times I've had to correct that view on the Christian websites I am a part of. And some people listen to me there about as much as those who here want to tell me that I believe in three God's bother to listen to what I actually say I believe. It's like, we know what you say, but we've already made up our minds what we believe in this regard because someone else who we respect already told us different. So, please don't try to confuse me with the facts.

What can I tell you? I know the truth in both situations, but sometimes I feel like I'm casting pearls before swine in trying to explain it.

 

[MustafaMc]

And some people listen to me there about as much as those who here want to tell me that I believe in three God's bother to listen to what I actually say I believe. It's like, we know what you say, but we've already made up our minds what we believe in this regard because someone else who we respect already told us different. So, please don't try to confuse me with the facts.

What can I tell you? I know the truth in both situations, but sometimes I feel like I'm casting pearls before swine in trying to explain it.

I think that I understand the Christian concept of God although I don't believe it to be "the truth" as you do. I personally believe that the Islamic concept of Allah in the Qur'an is the Truth and for me to re-accept the Triune concept of God as portrayed by Christianity would require me to first disbelieve that the Qur'an is the Word of the One God and accept in its place the Bible. Sorry to tell you, but this ain't likely to happen.

A distinction between Allah in Islam and the Trinity (for lack of a better word) in Christianity is that Christians believe that the One God exists simultaneously in multiple places within His creation - most notably inside of human flesh. In Christianity, God exists as the Father in Heaven (e.g. the Lord's Prayer), as the Son within the human body of Jesus (as), and as the Holy Spirit living within each Christian who has accepted Jesus (as) as his personal Savior. (Correct me if I am wrong.) In Islam, Allah is not an Omnipresent Being other than in His Knowledge and Muslims don't believe that it is befitting of the Majesty of Allah that He should reside within a mortal human body. The Qur'anic verse 50:16 "We created man, We know the prompting of his soul, and We are closer to him than his jugular vein." seems to imply that this indwelling is so, but, according to Yusuf Ali commentary, this means that "Allah knows more truly the innermost state of our feeling and consciousness than does our own ego."

Personally, I don't see that you worship three gods, but rather that you err in ascribing a Divine nature to Jesus (as) and that you worship him instead of the One God, Whom I recognize as the Being that Jesus (as) is quoted in the NT as referring to as "the Father".

 

[MustafaMc]

I am aware of God speaking to Moses through the burning bush, but is there any verse in the OT that indicates that God lives within any human body?

 

[mkh4JC]

I am aware of God speaking to Moses through the burning bush, but is there any verse in the OT that indicates that God lives within any human body?

Well, there is no verse in the Old Testament where it is explained that God lives inside of human beings. But that's because Christ hadn't died yet. But in the Old Testament God separated the Levitical priesthood to carry his presence on their shoulders in the Ark of the Covenant.

Now you need to remember one thing. The Ark of God was not just a common object in Israel. It was a holy piece of the Tabernacle of Moses. And it wasn't just one of the objects in the Tabernacle of Moses either. It was THE focal point of the whole Tabernacle! It was upon the Ark that the two Golden Cherubim looked down on the mercy seat. Moses or the High Priest would take the blood of the sacrifice once a year and pour it out on the mercy seat to atone for the sin of the Israelites. The Ark of God represented the very Presence of God (YHWH - Yahweh).

That's the parallel between the two testaments, as I once heard a gentlemen on Christian television say that it is God's desire to have us burdened with his presence, a burden of which comes from a great many things, like persecution and Satanic attacks.

And of course both Adam and Eve had God living inside of them, until they sinned, and their eyes were opened, and they understood both good and evil as he withdrew his presence from them.

 

[YusufNoor]

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

That's the parallel between the two testaments, as I once heard a gentlemen on Christian television say that it is God's desire to have us burdened with his presence, a burden of which comes from a great many things, like persecution and Satanic attacks.

God's presence is a BURDEN to Christians! Astargfirullah!

Allah[swt] in Islam is not "everywhere", but His[swt] knowledge IS! and ALL the forms that we have in which we worship Allah[swt] are a Blessing and benefit US IMMENSELY! (although it does not benefit Allah[swt] at all!)

And of course both Adam and Eve had God living inside of them, until they sinned, and their eyes were opened, and they understood both good and evil as he withdrew his presence from them.

so to understand this, having "God living inside of" Adam and Eve did NOT make them capable of understanding good and evil? Astargfirullah!

and they COULD NOT understand evil UNTIL they sinned? Astargfirullah!

if "God living inside of you" cannot help you understand good from evil, how can you be punished for not understanding it?

should not this god of yours withdrew from them BEFORE they sinned so that they could, understand good and evil?

:?

 

[mkh4JC]

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,



God's presence is a BURDEN to Christians! Astargfirullah!

Allah[swt] in Islam is not "everywhere", but His[swt] knowledge IS! and ALL the forms that we have in which we worship Allah[swt] are a Blessing and benefit US IMMENSELY! (although it does not benefit Allah[swt] at all!)

You have to understand, that when a person becomes Christian a lot of the times your life will become more complicated than it already is, just based on the plan that God has for your life. It's true that God will deliver you from whatever you were bound with (in terms of your lifestyle) before you accept Christ, but sometimes he will put things in your life afterwards to mold you into the person that he wants you to be. In Psalms 34:19 it says, 'Many are the afflictions of the righteous,' and its true that it goes on to say, 'but the Lord delivers them out of them all.' But that still doesn't negate the fact that 'many are the afflictions of the righteous.'

so to understand this, having "God living inside of" Adam and Eve did NOT make them capable of understanding good and evil? Astargfirullah!

and they COULD NOT understand evil UNTIL they sinned? Astargfirullah!

if "God living inside of you" cannot help you understand good from evil, how can you be punished for not understanding it?

should not this god of yours withdrew from them BEFORE they sinned so that they could, understand good and evil?

Adam and Eve were created spiritually innocent. They had no concept of good and evil. When they disobeyed God he withdrew his presence away from them and their eyes were opened. And they also became capable of sinning, since they knew what good and evil was. The Christian position is that all since (with the exception of Jesus Christ) is altogether born in sins, and that this is a fallen world, which anyone can pretty much see.

But maybe someone else with a bit more knowledge can address some of your points, as I'm actually still a baby in Christ.

 

[Grace Seeker]

I'm not sure that I would have spoken of the Holy Spirit living within Adam and Eve the same way that Fedos did. We are told that they had fellowship with God, and there is a very anthropomorphic image of God walking in the garden in search of them, but think that the immanence of God's presence in the Holy Spirit awaits Pentecost for its realization.


I'm curious if Allah is not omnipresent in Isalm, then would it true that there are places where Allah is not present, cannot reach and cannot be reached?

 

[MustafaMc]

I'm curious if Allah is not omnipresent in Isalm, then would it true that there are places where Allah is not present, cannot reach and cannot be reached?

No, we don't believe that Allah is physically present everywhere at the same time. However, there is no place and no thought that escapes His Knowledge. You know the saying, "You can run, but you can't hide." There are only a few places where a Muslim must not pray - facing or on top of a grave, in a restroom, or in a slaughter house, but that is not to say that Allah is unaware of what goes on in those places.

 

[doorster]

if you make/create something tiny (compared to yourself), do you need to be inside it, become part of it in order to know its workings?

 

[Grace Seeker]

something tiny (compared to yourself)

Are you speaking of big vs. tiny in a material or spiritual sense?

 

[YusufNoor]

You have to understand, that when a person becomes Christian a lot of the times your life will become more complicated than it already is, just based on the plan that God has for your life. It's true that God will deliver you from whatever you were bound with (in terms of your lifestyle) before you accept Christ, but sometimes he will put things in your life afterwards to mold you into the person that he wants you to be. In Psalms 34:19 it says, 'Many are the afflictions of the righteous,' and its true that it goes on to say, 'but the Lord delivers them out of them all.' But that still doesn't negate the fact that 'many are the afflictions of the righteous.'

i was under the impression that "Christians" no longer "needed" the Old Testament...

Adam and Eve were created spiritually innocent. They had no concept of good and evil. When they disobeyed God he withdrew his presence away from them and their eyes were opened.

if "God" was keeping them ignorant of "good and evil", how can "he" punish them for not knowing better? ESPECIALLY if the "devil' had more influence over them than their "presence of "God"??? so, somehow "God's[the Father, i'm assuming] presence" within them was not powerful enough to save them, BUT NOW that one third of god in the form of a human allowed man to kill him[or committed suicide as man cannot kill god]; the "other third of god," in the form[or lack thereof] the holy spirit, IS SOMEHOW strong enough to "save man!" a rather odd concept don't you think? one would have thought that with such an henotheistic religion the the chief god[the father] would have been the stronger force...

And they also became capable of sinning, since they knew what good and evil was.

but the sinned, according to you, BEFORE their eyes were opened! which would mean that they really didn't sin because they weren't capable of sinning because their eyes weren't "opened" yet! do you follow?


The Christian position is that all since (with the exception of Jesus Christ) is altogether born in sins, and that this is a fallen world, which anyone can pretty much see.

actually, i though that Mary, whom the majority of Christians[that is the Catholics] ALSO call god, was born without sin also?

But maybe someone else with a bit more knowledge can address some of your points, as I'm actually still a baby in Christ.

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

why would you need more knowledge, you claim that as a Christian, that you Fathergod sends his holy spirit to you to guide you. isn't this "holy spirit" actually one third of your triune god? as a full third of god, he/she should possess all the knowledge that the fathergod has, shouldn't he/she?

you know one of the things that you've missed here, is that Islam follows the 7 Noahide Laws;why, in your opinion don't the "Christians" follow them as well?

 

[mkh4JC]

i was under the impression that "Christians" no longer "needed" the Old Testament...

Without the Old Testament, you can't understand the New. You wouldn't understand, for instance, the importance of blood sacrifice for the remission of sins, a concept that God introduced even to Adam and Eve, as evidenced by Cain and Abel's offerings.

if "God" was keeping them ignorant of "good and evil", how can "he" punish them for not knowing better? ESPECIALLY if the "devil' had more influence over them than their "presence of "God"??? so, somehow "God's[the Father, i'm assuming] presence" within them was not powerful enough to save them, BUT NOW that one third of god in the form of a human allowed man to kill him[or committed suicide as man cannot kill god]; the "other third of god," in the form[or lack thereof] the holy spirit, IS SOMEHOW strong enough to "save man!" a rather odd concept don't you think? one would have thought that with such an henotheistic religion the the chief god[the father] would have been the stronger force...

As Grace Seeker pretty much elucidated, Adam and Eve did not have God's presence. As I said, I'm a baby in Christ. I don't know everything. I do, however, know enough about the nature of salvation to witness about it.

but the sinned, according to you, BEFORE their eyes were opened! which would mean that they really didn't sin because they weren't capable of sinning because their eyes weren't "opened" yet! do you follow?

I guess I should have made it more clear then. The only sin Adam and Eve were capable of commiting was eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They were not capable of the things we are today.

actually, i though that Mary, whom the majority of Christians[that is the Catholics] ALSO call god, was born without sin also?

There is not one verse in the New Testament where this is stated. This is a very Catholic doctrine, and I--as a born again Christian--do not put much stock in Catholicism.

why would you need more knowledge, you claim that as a Christian, that you Fathergod sends his holy spirit to you to guide you. isn't this "holy spirit" actually one third of your triune god? as a full third of god, he/she should possess all the knowledge that the fathergod has, shouldn't he/she?

He does lead you into all truth. But you have to have studied the Word, mediated on it, and become grounded in it for him to begin to lead you into that truth. I did something really stupid when I first accepted Christ (basically I sinned) and I have been suffering under God's discipline ever since, so my growth has been stunted. And in actuality, during time spent here, sometimes he does step in and caution me against things that I have written (not with a literal voice mind you, but the Holy Spirit has his ways of communicating with you).