Confusing Religions

[August]

Yet, if religion could be proven to be truthful (leaving no doubt) would God reward us for believing in it? And would not everyone believe in the same religion in that case?

I don't think any religion can be conclusively proven true, but we can use some evidence. I became a Catholic because of both faith and reason. I certainly agree that faith is necessary to believe in any religion, but God does not ask us to believe blindly. On the other hand, some religions can be proven false on the basis of evidence alone. (cough.....scientology.....cough)

 

[Keltoi]

as it is, in light of advancement in science and so on all religions will have to let go of much of their teachings to survive, regardless of said teachings being truly part of the religion or otherwise.

That is an important point. The increase in scientific knowledge isn't something to be rejected, but something to be pondered and explored. Those responsible for writing the Bible and the Qu'ran would have limited knowledge of chemical compositions, which are vital to the origins of life, for example. Fearing increased knowledge is irrational, especially if one truly has faith in their religion.

 

[Argamemnon]

Those responsible for writing the Bible and the Qu'ran would have limited knowledge of chemical compositions, which are vital to the origins of life, for example. Fearing increased knowledge is irrational, especially if one truly has faith in their religion.

Are you saying that God has limited knowledge of science?

 

[Keltoi]

Are you saying that God has limited knowledge of science?

No, but I also don't believe God writes books. However, I will reword it another way.

What is contained within the Bible or the Qu'ran does not explain areas of scientific knowledge that are vital to understanding ourselves. Such as chemical compositions and elements that make up the universe.

 

[alcurad]

agreed, but I didn't mean science only. socially, we have come far-for the most part- from burning witches, slavery, beating women etc, these are generally rejected nowadays but in their time they mostly were religiously sanctioned.
that might free religion from much of what is holding many from embracing it,or the opposite.
perhaps we might yet see the majority of the world following a religion or no religion at all.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

a bit too simplistic perhaps, but here goes:
searching for the truth is nothing more than an excuse, an excuse for not believing in something, nothing wrong with that but no one will ever find "truth".
rather, religion is true as long as it serves a purpose. as for those whom it doesn't serve, they won't believe no matter how many "proofs" are presented.
as it is, in light of advancement in science and so on all religions will have to let go of much of their teachings to survive, regardless of said teachings being truly part of the religion or otherwise.

Brother, can you rephrase that for me?

When making statements such as "all religions will have to let go of much of their teachings to survive," I hope to God that you do not believe that this is relevant to Islam.

Know that on the basis of this statement alone, you do not speak for Islam. Science studies Allah's creation. Allah's chosen religion is Islam. Through science we have discovered secrets in the scripture that have increased our faith.

"This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favour to you and chosen for you Islam as a religion." Quran 5:3


Islam will never change, but the behavior of Muslims who follow it ebbs and flows.

 

[alcurad]

true, but I also said:"regardless of said teachings being truly part of the religion or otherwise."

 

[AntiKarateKid]

true, but I also said:"regardless of said teachings being truly part of the religion or otherwise."

So? I cant understand what you are getting at. The fact is that nothing will change for Islam.

 

[Grace Seeker]

agreed, but I didn't mean science only. socially, we have come far-for the most part- from burning witches, slavery, beating women etc, these are generally rejected nowadays but in their time they mostly were religiously sanctioned.
that might free religion from much of what is holding many from embracing it,or the opposite.
perhaps we might yet see the majority of the world following a religion or no religion at all.

I wish that were true. I am afraid that there are many who have not come so far from these acts. Have we not just recently seen beautiful and historically significant statues destroyed because some saw them as violating their understanding of God's will: Taliban-destroyed Buddhas may never be restored

In the weeks before the Taliban destroyed the giant Buddhas, they also entered the Kabul Museum wielding sledgehammers. They smashed 2,500 priceless artifacts stored there.

"It was a sad action," said museum director Omar Khan Masoudi, who has worked at the museum for almost three decades.

Asked if the Taliban had ever apologized for their actions, he smiled slightly and said, "No."

I know that such behavior is not reflective of Islam as a whole, but still there are people within both Islam and Christianity (and I suspect most religions) who see any other practice as a threat and react accordingly. Slavery is the most common human rights violation, and if found world-wide in every society, even if hidden underground. My Turkish daughter tells me that women might still be killed by their own famiilies in the eastern parts of her country if they suspect that she may have engaged in sexual relations prior to marriage (even if raped) as what they call an honor killing. At the other extreme, in the USA, there are "Christian" groups (though I hate to call them that, they are so far out on the edge) that will basically prostitute their barely turned teen-aged daughters because in their twisted view of religion it is a way help them secure salvation. And witches are still put to death in other cultures of the world specifically because of religious fears associated with them.

I suspect mot of us here think all of those acts are atrocities. But there are still acts that are accepted today that I wonder what generations of future believers will feel the same way toward with regard to our practices of restricting the role of women in the household, taking revenge on one who insults our God, considering as an attack worthy or reprisals the cariacature of a significant religious leader, relegating those who don't share our ethic to lower status in our society. These are not uncommon acts today. Indeed do a quick search on the internet and you will even find people who defend these practices as a part of their religious value system. I suspect that perhaps even among those who frequent this website there are some who would hold to some of those views if I were to discuss specific instances rather than speaking in generalities.

 

[جوري]

I wish that were true. I am afraid that there are many who have not come so far from these acts. Have we not just recently seen beautiful and historically significant statues destroyed because some saw them as violating their understanding of God's will: [.

ha?

'beautiful and significant' statues have a way of being the object of adoration..

sort of like Jesus a man becoming a God, with scores of christians kneeling before his statues in every church in every color.. Not sure where the religion begins and the absurdities end?!

I don't condone the destruction of monuments --but I do of effigies that folks take for worship---

I am glad they did it.. if I saw a statue of 'Jesus' on Muslim land with intent to misguide people as the christians themselves are misguided, I'd probably destroy it, as Jesus PBUH will himself do when he descends on earth!


cheers

 

[AntiKarateKid]

ha?

'beautiful and significant' statues have a way of being the object of adoration..

sort of like Jesus a man becoming a God, with scores of christians kneeling before his statues in every church in every color.. Not sure where the religion begins and the absurdities end?!

I don't condone the destruction of monuments --but I do of effigies that folks take for worship---

I am glad they did it.. if I saw a statue of 'Jesus' on Muslim land with intent to misguide people as the christians themselves are misguided, I'd probably destroy it, as Jesus PBUH will himself do when he descends on earth!


cheers

Perhaps there is another way to further Islam?

I agree that I would not tolerate idols which are placed to try and CONVERT Muslims.

On the other hand, if they are not shoving them in our face and are minding their own business, we are obliged to tolerate them within reason.

If we want to see idols smashed, perhaps it is better to prove to the people how futile worshipping those statues is, so that THEY THEMSELVES may destroy the statues.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

I wish that were true. I am afraid that there are many who have not come so far from these acts. Have we not just recently seen beautiful and historically significant statues destroyed because some saw them as violating their understanding of God's will: Taliban-destroyed Buddhas may never be restored

So tell me, would you have chastised Prophet Abraham for smashing his father's idols?

Those idols are historically misleading rather than "significant". As long as their influence is kept to a minimum, I am happy. Let those false Gods defend themselves.

 

[جوري]

Perhaps there is another way to further Islam?

I agree that I would not tolerate idols which are placed to try and CONVERT Muslims.

On the other hand, if they are not shoving them in our face and are minding their own business, we are obliged to tolerate them within reason.

If we want to see idols smashed, perhaps it is better to prove to the people how futile worshipping those statues is, so that THEY THEMSELVES may destroy the statues.

I am not promoting Islam to the Christians on board.. if I were, I believe I would be on a christian forum?
on that very thread that Gene was so kind to share, the actual reason for destroying effigies is expressed if you are interested in reading!...

Many Muslim countries under actual khalifate rule managed to keep statues .. Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria Iraq etc etc --no?

I am not going to condemn Afghans for doing whatever they saw fit in their own land when under occupation.
Nor will I congratulate a christian on his futile effort to use what he thinks a trump card against Muslims..

I hope we are done insha'Allah?

 

[Follower]

GOD will judge us by the religion we follow. Muslims and Jews must follow all the laws to the letter. Christians have a gift of grace through Jesus- Christians must follow the Law, but if they stumble they have Jesus to save them.

Romans 2

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

John 14

6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

 

[Argamemnon]

My Turkish daughter tells me that women might still be killed by their own famiilies in the eastern parts of her country if they suspect that she may have engaged in sexual relations prior to marriage (even if raped) as what they call an honor killing.

Turkish daughter?

 

[Argamemnon]

I am not going to condemn Afghans for doing whatever they saw fit in their own land when under occupation.

You may not want to condemn them, but that doesn't make it right. I prefer condemning every action that I consider wrong, whether done by Christians or Muslims (or anyone else).

 

[Grace Seeker]

As I said Alcurad, I wish your statement was true:

socially, we have come far-for the most part- from burning witches, slavery, beating women etc, these are generally rejected nowadays but in their time they mostly were religiously sanctioned.

But I just refer you back to some of the recent posts that have been made, and you will see why I suggest that I don't think we really have. We still give religious sanction to things that I would hope were things of the past, but they are not. But I am glad to see folks express views like Argamemnon above; he gives me hope for the future.

 

[جوري]

You may not want to condemn them, but that doesn't make it right. I prefer condemning every action that I consider wrong, whether done by Christians or Muslims (or anyone else).

In this case it was exactly right, spending a fortune on effigies for paganists, or on civilians? you need to define your priorities!... wish that world wide concern would spill over as Americans have desecrated the treasures of ancient Sumaria in Iraq

During the Iraqi war, the Iraqi National Museum had over 170,000 artifacts stolen. Officials recovered more than 40,000 stolen artifacts that belonged to the museum. Hundreds of these artifacts have been returned by Iraqi people to the museum. U.S. officials also are accepting the looted items without questions at the museum gates.

www.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/91/IraqNationalMuseum

let's start condemnation right there shall we?

 

[Argamemnon]

Frankly, I think a great deal of people of all religions and nationalities are hypocrites. They are quick to condemn every misdeed done by others, but ignore when their people do the same or something similar. It's a fact of life, isn't it.

As I said Alcurad, I wish your statement was true:
But I just refer you back to some of the recent posts that have been made, and you will see why I suggest that I don't think we really have. We still give religious sanction to things that I would hope were things of the past, but they are not. But I am glad to see folks express views like Argamemnon above; he gives me hope for the future.

 

[Argamemnon]

In this case it was exactly right, spending a fortune on effigies for paganists, or on civilians? you need to define your priorities!...

Wrong still remains wrong - if I killed someone, it wouldn't excuse another man's theft.