Somali millitants destroy Churches, graves.

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:sl:
That is completely a false statement - only Allah knows the past, present and future. A week from now and we might hear more clearer facts and figures. Hence my example of the Okhlahoma bombing - a much more horrofiying incident to make this point hit home.
And until we get those facts and figures, I'm staying with the current ones. If better facts and figures come, I'll change my mind. Same with the existence of Antarctica. But by your standards, we shouldn't believe anything about antarctica until somebody says it doesn't exist.


2. Of course they probably have. The verse from the Quran I quoted didn't say the "the fasiq should verify his own evidence".
1. How do you know that the people working for Al-Jazeera are fasiqs? According to your own standards, you can't just make accusitions without them being properly verified!

I never said you said they are "automatically wrong in every single act that they do" - read what I said above ...
Ok.
:w:
 
How do you know the US is poking it's nose in Somalia's affairs? Have you witnessed this with your own eyes? 70 excuses brother.

Because they have been arming Ethiopians to fight Somalians Brother - common news can be researched if one wishes to spend the time.

Not everything has to be witnessed 'with my own eyes' for me to believe it thank you all the same. I believe a Sky satellite is in orbit around Earth beacause we have sky channels - I've never seen the satellite with my own eyes though.

The 70 excuses is a hadith relating to the Muslims specifically not the US army.
 
:sl:

And until we get those facts and figures, I'm staying with the current ones. If better facts and figures come, I'll change my mind. Same with the existence of Antarctica. But by your standards, we shouldn't believe anything about antarctica until somebody says it doesn't exist.


That was one quick u-turn. In one post you said:

"We in person are never going to get that evidence" (strong claim) and then above you indicate we might get the facts one day. So perhaps make your own standards a little solid before passing judgement on my standards - and who are you to judge?.

As far as I know Antartica exists from reports - political, geograhphical and otherwise. I've seen films of it. I've heard reports about it. I've not actually lived there recently though. I believe it exists due to an overwhelming base of varied evidence - a fair judgement one might say. It could all be a govenrment consipracy of course to make the world think that it exists.



1. How do you know that the people working for Al-Jazeera are fasiqs? According to your own standards, you can't just make accusitions without them being properly verified!


First of all I didn't even know it was reported by Al-Jazeera. Secondly therefore (by default) I'm not saying Al-Jazeera are faasiqs. I'm quoting that verse to make a point that if a FASIQ comes to you with news then what about a NON-FASIQ?.


Ok.
:w:

....
 
Because they have been arming Ethiopians to fight Somalians Brother - common news can be researched if one wishes to spend the time.
This is also common news that you can research and find out about. I just posted the Al-Jazeera one because it was the first article about it I saw. Plus, there are other articles about other Churches and graves being demolished.

Not everything has to be witnessed 'with my own eyes' for me to believe it thank you all the same. I believe a Sky satellite is in orbit around Earth beacause we have sky channels - I've never seen the satellite with my own eyes though.
Then why don't you believe this then?
[/quote]
:w:
 
This is also common news that you can research and find out about. I just posted the Al-Jazeera one because it was the first article about it I saw. Plus, there are other articles about other Churches and graves being demolished.

I don't deny the demolishing of the church/graves - I never have since the thread started.


Then why don't you believe this then?

I do believe they did it - as far as media reports indicate (which do speak the truth as well as lie as we all know). I just don't go rushing (like some Muslims like to) to say they were wrong/bad in doing it until I have investigated the matter further because I follow the well-known and important principle of having a good opinion and seeking excuses for your Muslim brother rather than to make my first reaction one of "Some Somalian Muslims have destroyed a Christain place of worship! - what an evil act! - what bad Muslims those Somalians are!".

Like I have said before - who owned the church? (no-one knows - no Christains lived in the city according to one report). What was the intention behind those who destroyed it (this is my MAIN point)?. Were they doing it for some reason - military, stategic, safety (like I mentioned before maybe the building was unsafe - a 60 year building in a war-zone might be, not surprisingly, a bit shaky), were they paid by the US or other people to do this i.e. certain 'bad apples' of the larger group they operated in?. The list is long.
:w:[/QUOTE]
 
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I remember that bombing quite clearly and don't remember any muslims being blamed. They went after the militia groups pretty quickly. They thought it was retaliation for Ruby Ridge.


Many in the media did initially assume a Muslim group was involved.

Some to this day do. Although that is primairly right wing conspiracy nuts who can't believe a good old WASP boy would go and commit atrocities like those blood thirsty Muhammadans all by his lonesome.:ermm:
 
Many in the media did initially assume a Muslim group was involved.

Some to this day do. Although that is primairly right wing conspiracy nuts who can't believe a good old WASP boy would go and commit atrocities like those blood thirsty Muhammadans all by his lonesome.:ermm:

I think MOST of the media did wth1257 - see my Wikipedia link above.
 
whats the problem? they took down a church which NOBODY is using, and there are NO Christians in the town, so whats the use of having it up there?

That's the same kind of excuse the Catholics used when they kicked out the muslims out of Andalucia and Sicily... imsad
 
Comments:
1. So much for Somalia being a 100% Muslim country. Why would they have Churches there if it was 100% Muslim?

According to International Religious Freedom Report 2008

[pie] There also is a very small, extremely low-profile Christian community, and small numbers of followers of other religions. http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2008/108391.htm[/pie]

According to Joshua Project there are several thousands Christians:

Christians Among Ethnic Groups in Somalia

- Somali (75,370)
- Amhara (51,300)
- Oromo (5,210)
- Mushunguli (480)
- Italian (415)
- French (228)
- Indo-Pakistani (52)
- British (35)
- Arab (29)
- Boni (1)

TOTAL - 133,120

http://www.joshuaproject.net/countries.php

According to Catholic website there were 8,500 Catholics in 1950, and 100 Catholics in 2004.

http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/diocese/dmgds.html

From wikipedia:

Christianity is a minority religion in Somalia. Most Christians in Somalia belong to the Church of the Nazarene. Likely about a hundred Catholics live in Somalia. There is one diocese for the whole country: The Diocese of Mogadishu. According to the World Christian Encyclopedia (2nd edition), Volume 1, p. 673 the Anglican Church, the Somalia Believers Fellowship, the Somalia Mennonite Mission and the Seventh-day Adventists are present in this country. The Seventh-day Adventists of Somalia belong to the East-Central Africa Division of Seventh-day Adventists. Sheikh Nur Barud stated that all Somali Christians must be killed. Since the U. N. Peacekeeping forces left in 1995, more than 500 Christians in Somalia have been murdered. There are no church buildings in Somalia. Somali Christians are despised. Paramilitary groups in Somalia have engaged in widespread looting of Christian graves. There is a Christian radio Somali Voice of New Life, based in Kenya. Professing Christians face persecution and death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Somalia
 
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Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem,

As-Salaamu 'Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh,

This type of news gives me much food for thought. Think about it, why would some people, according to the news report, encourage such groups if they, as written in the news report, are stoning rape victims?

Imagine you had a child, and you heard of people stoning rape victims would you encourage for such people to take power? As usual I don't think the sources are as trustworthy as they may appear. Either at their level or their source's levels.

I thus wonder why people are hasty to condemn or praise. Most of us here don't know the situation there. Some of us who may have Somali family have to also bear in mind that when we hear information it is coming from, generally, a particular point of view. For example, I hear very different stories, including praise and condemnation of the current goverment of my home country. So please let us becareful.

As for some of the actions, one needs to ask several things:

1. Do we ever think we have a correct view, Islamically speaking, after we have done some research and heard some trusted person speak on it?

2. Is it possible that there is a difference of opinion on some of the issues addressed?​

Is it possible that the shrines were mosques being built on graves and people worshipping the graves, and that these brothers had read:

In the Sahih, it is recorded from 'A'isha, that Umm Salamahtold Allah's Messenger, salla Allahu 'alayhi wa salam, about a church he saw in the land of al-Habashah, and about the images that it contained. So he said, "These are the kind of people, that when a righteous man among them died, or - a righteous worshipper - they build a masjid over his grave, and they made those images in it. Those are the most evil creatures to Allah.43

Footnote 43 - Al-Bukhari, Muslim and others.

Or in the same chapter from Kitab At Tauhid:

Jundab bin 'Abdullah said, "Five days before he died, I hear the Prophet, salla Allahu 'alayhi wa salam saying: 'Surely I am innocent before Allah of having taken a khalil from among you. For surely Allah has taken me as His khalil, just as He took Ibrahim as His khalil. Yet if I were to have taken a khalil from among my ummah, then I would take Abu Bakr as a khalil. Truly those above you would take their prophets graves as masjids. So do not take the graves as masjids. I certainly have forbidden you from that'" (Muslim)

And as always Allah knows best, the above is taken from Chapter: The detriment of one who worships Allah at someone's grave, So how abouot when he worships its inhabitant? I need not say the above is right, all I am saying imagine they are trying to save their people from shirk and do what is best for their people and we are here totally removed from the situation, listening to some source we do not even know, and condemning? If they do good then may Allah reward them with Jannatul Firdaws and if they do bad may he guide us and them and forgive us and them.

Think about it, it may not be that these Muslims are just ignorant, just as we make mistakes sometimes, and even some scholars did! They can make mistakes too, with having sincere intention. Moreover some of the issues may have some scholarly opinions that we don't even know about!

I am amazed at the speed at which people condemn or praise. Maybe that's due to my ignorance, if so correct me.

Your Br.al-Habeshi
 
Well before going on to them do you agree with my point first (which is that it is wiser to get the full facts first before running with judgements and that seeking 70 excuses for your Brother/Sister is highly important in Islam)?.
And where would we find the full facts?

I know perfectly well about seeking 70 excuses. It's just that in my view desecrating a grave doesn't really have any, whether it's a Sufi shrine or not.
 
Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

this MAY surprise some of you:

http://www.anwar-alawlaki.com/

Salutations to al-Shabab of Somalia
Posted (Anwar alAwlaki) in Imam Anwar's Blog on December-21-2008

We are following your recent news and it fills our hearts with immense joy. We would like to congratulate you for your victories and achievements.

Al-Shabab not only have succeeded in expanding the areas that fall under their rule but they have succeeded in implementing the sharia and giving us a living example of how we as Muslims should proceed to change our situation. The ballot has failed us but the bullet has not.
al-Shabab who are with limited resources in an impoverished country are a manifestation of what tawakul on Allah means. We see in them the meaning of “And whoever has taqwa, Allah will make a way out for him. And will provide for him from where he does not expect.” [al-Talaaq 2-3]
The university of the battlefield that al-Shabab have chosen to study at, which is teaching them lessons in honor and steadfastness will prove to be a better tarbiyyah method than the Islamic universities run by Green Zone Scholars under governments headed by pimps that teach them the fiqh of weakness and humiliation.
The university of Somalia will graduate an alumni of judges, administrators, enjoiners of good and forbiders of evil, capable and tested leaders, teachers, imams, and fighters who are hardened by the field and ready to carry on with no fear and hesitation. It will provide its graduates with the hands-on experience that the ummah greatly needs for its next stage.
But their success depends on your support. It is the responsibility of the ummah to help them with men and money.
Al-Shabab have already started a program of enforcement of law that would bring peace and security to the people. They are also applying hudud and fighting against innovations that have been around for centuries. We ask Allah to grant them success.
I would like to take this opportunity to advise my brothers to be kind and soft with the masses; to excuse them for centuries of ignorance and false beliefs; to teach first and hold responsible last. I would advise you to go by certainty and to leave doubts; to prefer forgiveness over revenge. The masses of the people are suffering from the illnesses of tribalism, ignorance, and a campaign of defamation of sharia. Therefore you need to win the hearts and minds of the people and take them back to their fitrah.
Dear brothers may Allah guide you and grant you victory. Only Allah knows that if my circumstances would have allowed I would not have hesitated in joining you and being a soldier in your ranks.
Assalamu alaykum
Your Brother
Anwar al-Awlaki

:w:
 
i think the desecration of the graves is the most justified thing they did to save their people from shirk. as for the chrurch and the stoning victim allah knows best
 
oh and i was watching the video in which the guy was being whipped for smoking hashish....they werent even whipping him hard and it really didnt look like he was in any type of pain. i
 
i think the desecration of the graves is the most justified thing they did to save their people from shirk. as for the chrurch and the stoning victim allah knows best
Huh?

It's the living who committed shirk, not the dead. Destroying a grave or a tomb disrespects the dead. Leave them be. Deal with the mushriks, don't touch the graves.
 
Somalis grow fearful of Islamists

Public anger at the recent stoning of a 13-year-old girl in Somalia shows the growing resentment towards radical Islamists who have gained control of much of the south and centre of the country.

Insurgents from the militant group al-Shabab are seen as authoritarian and unaccountable - unlike the Islamists who were in control of the capital, Mogadishu, in 2006.

Asha Ibrahim Dhuhulow was stoned to death for adultery in the southern port city of Kismayo, which was taken control by al-Shabab and its allies in August.
Her 62-year-old aunt told the BBC that the teenager had in fact been raped by three armed men - and she took Asha to the police station to report it.

Several days later, after two suspects had been arrested, she was asked to return to the station with her niece.

To her surprise the girl was taken into custody too.

"I tried to speak to the police but they said they were not talking," she said.

Three days later, after Asha had been tried in an Islamist court, she was stoned to death.

"They said that the girl had chatted up these men and had confessed to adultery," she said.

But the aunt said the authorities clearly failed to notice her age, how mentally disturbed she was by her experience, or her history of mental illness.

"She was only 13 years old. I have got her card from Hagarder refugee camp which has her age on it. She might have looked a bit older, but you could tell her age by talking to her," she said.

Law and order

Other critics point to the lack of lawyers, witnesses or appeal process.

The Islamists were reported to have announced their verdict the day before the stoning from cars with loudspeakers.

But Asha's aunt was not informed of the court's decision - despite repeated visits to the police station.

"I was not even told that she was to be killed, I just heard it from people after it happened.

"I don't know what crime she committed other than being raped; and I was not even allowed to see her body," she said.

Al-Shabab in Kismayo has refused attempts by the BBC to discuss the stoning.

It is almost two years since the Ethiopian-backed interim government ousted the Union of Islamic Courts (UIC), which had ruled much of Somalia for nearly six months.

In 2006, the UIC was generally welcomed for the law and order it brought to a country bedevilled by more than a decade of civil war and clan fighting.

UIC fighters launched an insurgency following what many Somalis regarded as an Ethiopian invasion. Its youth and military wing, al-Shabab, gained notoriety for its determination, despite its much smaller numbers.

Fear

The group, which is on the US terror list and is said to have links with al-Qaeda, has since split from the UIC, angered by its current peace negotiations with the government.

It does not work against the UIC, but it favours co-operating with other groups including:

• The Kaanboni, led by Hassan Turki, who is also on the US terror list

• The Islamic Front, a new group about which very little is known.

For example, since mid-August, when they captured the Lower Jubba, Middle Jubba and Gedo regions from local clan militia, they now share the administration with existing officials.

According to well-informed sources in the regions who requested anonymity, these groups instil fear among the local population.

"You keep quiet and follow the commands of the Islamists, or emigrate to neighbouring countries, or simply die and leave this world," one of them said.

In Mogadishu, al-Shabab insurgents are said to move around the city freely - often in vehicles captured from the government.

The government forces and troops from Ethiopia and the African Union are limited to the airport, port, presidential palace and a few military camps.

Besides the central city of Baidoa, these are the only areas government forces now hold.

When they attempt to move between these points, they are often ambushed by the Islamists.

A few weeks ago, al-Shabab held a military parade in a former military camp in the capital, where they carried out a public flogging of two men sentenced by an Islamic court over a family dispute.

The flogging took place in front of crowds of local residents, and was orchestrated to show just who is running the show.

Death threats

Al-Shabab insurgents have a countrywide organisation, threatening anyone they perceive to be supporting the government with text messages.
One human rights activist outside the capital told the BBC that he was ordered to close down his offices.

He said he began receiving quite frequent threatening messages on his mobile. So he stopped using his phone.

Eventually a relative brought him a stern message from al-Shabab. It said if he did not stop his work, he would be killed.

As the government has lost ground over the last five months, the number of attacks on civil society activists, local non-governmental workers and international aid workers has increased.

Some have been shot dead point-blank; others have been kidnapped and are still missing.

Most suspect that those behind the attacks are al-Shabab insurgents, even if no-one dares say so publicly.

In the central Hiiran region, where most towns have seen a presence of al-Shabab and the more moderate UIC since July, people have been more vocal in their complaints.

'Not Islamic'

A former army engineer and political activist detailed examples of those targeted because of their association with Ethiopia or the West.

"They have killed 17 civilians without reason or due process including two teachers and a well-known traditional elder, Da'ar Hirsi Hooshow," the man, whose name is being withheld for his own safety, told the BBC.

The teachers worked at a school that taught English and employed foreign staff.

The shooting of Mr Hooshow, who was known to be holding talks with Ethiopian troops before he was shot dead on 10 October, prompted angry scenes in Beled Weyne.

Town residents stoned al-Shabab centres believing them to be behind the killing.

And while the UIC may share al-Shabab's aim to see the Ethiopians leave the country, it has distanced itself from its former allies.

On Monday, UIC authorities in Beled Weyne arrested nine al-Shabab members for allegedly kidnapping an official over the weekend

"We didn't ask them to do any operation at all," Hiiran's al-Shabab Chairman Sheikh Ali Dheere told the BBC.

"They are wrong if they committed a kidnap. They will have to be punished under Sharia law," he said.

But many fear that law and order is not al-Shabab's priority.

"They are holding this region with the barrel of the gun, and it has nothing to do with Islam," the Hiiran political activist said.

Sources- BBC
 
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