Sharia law - do you really want it?

[Uthman]

Freedom is a relative concept. For example, many Muslim women consider wearing the Hijab to be a source of freedom for them and rather the western lifestyle as oppressive. Many Non-Muslim women consider the reverse to be true.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Freedom is a relative concept. For example, many Muslim women consider wearing the Hijab to a source of freedom for them and rather the western lifestyle as oppressive. Many Non-Muslim women consider the reverse to be true.

Newsboy has a point.
No moral system is perfect for everyone though some people will claim theirs is.
It's all relative, for me, the system most western countries apply nowadays seems the best, for Latika, the Hindu system may seem better and so on.

 

[جوري]

Ah respected Skye, I was wondering when you'd join us. . . .

Freedom .

.

The freedom to wear any form of clothing and bare any part of your body (other than the obvious bits).

You can wear any form of clothes as a Muslim woman no one will crucify you for not being up to code.. conservative wear is something between you and God not you and the community.. Muslim women dress as they do out of desire to dress as such, go to a place like Saudi Arabia in Jeddah, the so-called very heart of Islam and see how some of the women dress.. you mistake having dignity for lack of freedom whereas most of us would argue that forcing people to take off their conservative wear is the true sign of lack of freedom. Not every woman wishes to be objectified for your pleasure.. perhaps those who deign themselves desire for you to see nothing else but their body parts while those you deem lack freedom desire for you to see something else other than sexual beings?

The freedom to send your daughter to any school you choose.

Where in Sharia'a law is a woman forbidden to send her daughter to the school of her choosing?

The freedom to choose your own friends, partners, husbands without being accompanied.

Where in sharia'a law are you forbidden to choose your friends and partners?
Al-Khansaa’ bint Khidaam complained to the Prophet that her father wanted her to marry someone she didn’t want, saying “I do not wish to accept what my father has arranged.” The Prophet said, “Then this marriage is invalid, go and marry whomever you wish.” Al-Khansaa’ said, “I have actually accepted what my father has arranged, but I wanted women to know that fathers have no right in their daughter’s matters” (i.e. they have no right to force a marriage on them). (Fath Al-Barî Ibn Hajr, Sunan Ibn Mâjah)

The freedom to marry a non-Muslim.

I assure you no Muslim woman wishes to marry a non-muslim, if she did she wouldn't be Muslim and can do so in the place of her choosing!

The freedom to work outside the home.

Where in shari'a law is a woman forbidden to work outside the home? you are aware that the prophet worked for his first wife? that she had her own business? that 1400 yrs ago women were allowed to vote while not fifty yrs ago in your civilized west a woman of color was asked to give up her seat for a white man?

The freedom to work with men.

Who said in sharia'a law a woman can't work with men?

The freedom to shake a mans hand.

Does it bother you just the same, that the traditional Japanese greeting looks like this

or just when it comes to Muslim women? just so we are on the same page?

The freedom not to be stoned to death for adultery.

if you don't flaunt your adultery 'orgy' style I suppose you can get away with it.. you seem to be such an advocate for base values, I am not sure I understand why?

all the best

 

[Thinker]

Why do you ask questions but can't be bothered to read the answers properly? why do you twist people's words to support your arguments?

i have read the whole thread and have come across many times where the members already informed you that a husband CANNOT divorce his wife without a reason and yet you still argue that the husband is islamically allowed. and where do you get the idea from that the court won't grant permission for the wife to divorce from her husband unless he(the husband)
contravenes Islamic teachings?
Please do not make up your own facts and figures and do not give Wikipedia as a source to support your argument!

I think it may be you who is not reading or reading selectively or seeing what you want to see.

Whether a man can divorce without a reason is questionable whether he has to give the reason is not - he can divorce his wife by simply saying "I divorce you" and he doesn't have to give her a reason; the wife however need his permission.

Read these . .

The reason why divorce is in the man’s hands, and the ruling on divorce for no reason
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/111881

Giving talaaq (divorce) three times at once
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/2373/divorce

Wife cannot divorce her husband without permission
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/34579/divorce

Divorced by saying the I divorce you (no reason needed)
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/36580/divorce

Women who convert ti Islam must divorce kafir husbands
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/117/divorce

 

[Thinker]

One more thing, I would you to give your opinion about this:

Hilisyan Stansiri says: "prevent mixing, restrict girls' freedom, and return to the veil age, this is better for you than the impudence and lewd of Europe and America

Beret French, said while addressing Muslim girls "do not take the European families as your example, because they are bad ideals to follow"

Tell me what do you think of this article? That is some western views!
and we have a lot of other examples

Hi thanks for your views,

I read the article but I'm not sure I understood the point the author was trying to make. Is it simply that 'western women are not happy because they have too much freedom?

Can I ask which country you are living in?

Thanks

 

[جوري]

I think it may be you who is not reading or reading selectively or seeing what you want to see.

Whether a man can divorce without a reason is questionable whether he has to give the reason is not - he can divorce his wife by simply saying "I divorce you" and he doesn't have to give her a reason; the wife however need his permission.

Read these . .

The reason why divorce is in the man’s hands, and the ruling on divorce for no reason
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/111881

A woman can divorce her husband in Islam!
Name of Questioner

Hasan - United Kingdom​

Title

Can a Woman Divorce Herself?​

Question

Respected scholars of Islam, As-Salaam `Alaykum wa Rahmatullah wa Barakatuh. I’d like to know the Islamic view regarding this question: Does woman have the right to divorce herself? Jazakum Allah khayran.​

Date

29/Jul/2002​

Topic

Divorce​

Answer​

Wa`alykum As-Salamu Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh.

​

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.


All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear brother in Islam, it gives us great pleasure to receive your question, which is so interesting. May Allah enlighten our hearts with the light of Islam, Ameen!

Islam cares about family stability, which is the cornerstone of the Muslim society. Therefore, it lays downs rules and arrangements that guarantee that love and harmony prevail in the society.

Coming to the point your raised in your question, divorce, in principle, is the Shari`ah-based right of the husband; he can waive this right and can give his wife a right to divorce herself. There are other cases where the wife can end the marital bond such as Khul`.

In this regard, The European Council for Fatwa and Research, issued the following Fatwa:

“Originally Islam has given the right of divorce to man.

- Woman has the right to execute divorce if this is a condition stipulated in the marriage contract or the husband gives her this right later on.

- A woman can also ask for Khul` in front of a judge who should exhaust all means of reconciliation before sentencing Khul`.

- A woman may agree with her husband on divorce according to legal conditions.

- A woman may also ask the judge to divorce her if it is legally proved she has been harmed. The judge has the right to issue divorce verdict if the wife prove that harm. But the judge should try his best to make reconciliation, as Allah commanded him, especially by arbitrating to people to help him.”

For more information, you are recommended to read the following Fatwas:



Name of Questioner

Nur ​

Title

Can a Woman Divorce Her Husband?​

Question

Respected scholars, As-salamu `alaykum. Is it true that in Islam ONLY a man can divorce his wife and a woman cannot divorce her husband? Jazakum Allahu khayran.​

​

Date

06/Jul/2006​

Name of Mufti

Ahmad Kutty​

Topic

Divorce​

Answer​

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica]Wa `alaykum As-Salamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica]In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica]All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica]Dear questioner, we would like to thank you for the great confidence you place in us, and we implore Allah Almighty to help us serve His cause and render our work for His sake.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica]Generally speaking, divorce is not viewed favorably in Islam; rather it has been either condemned or discouraged unless warranted by valid reasons. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) cautioned against senseless exercise of divorce when he said "Divorce is the most abominable of all permissible acts in the sight of Allah" (Abu Dawud). So no one with sound Islamic spirit and attitude should resort to divorce except in extreme and unavoidable cases, where it has been considered as legitimate in Islam. The reason for this is clear, for divorce entails serious consequences for families and individuals. It results in deep psychological and emotional scars, especially when children are involved.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica]In his response to your question, Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states the following:[/FONT]​

This is certainly wholly untrue and false; such a misconception is mainly due to utter ignorance of the laws of the Shari`ah as well as, unfortunately, to the distorted ways we have been practicing these laws in our societies. When all the evidence is considered and evaluated, it is crystal clear that in Islam women, just like men, can have legitimate rights to divorce their husbands.

Divorce, however, it must be noted, is the most abominable of all permissible things in Islam. It is considered as the pet project of the devil, who is never satisfied with anything other than breaking up the relations between a husband and his wife. So all conscientious Muslims, male as well as female, must guard against the snares of Satan. They are obligated to try their utmost to maintain the sanctity of family. Therefore, divorce is a rare exception only to be undertaken for specific reasons, after having exhausted all means of reconciliation.

Having said this, I must state that Islam envisages perfect equity between the spouses in rights and responsibilities: [They shall have rights just as they have responsibilities in fair measure] (Al-Baqarah 2:228).​

Such rights of women definitely include the right to divorce their husbands when and where cohabitation becomes difficult.​

Such genuine reasons include physical or emotional abuse, for at no time does Islam tolerate such behavior from anyone; the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) instituted the firm principle that "there shall be no inflicting or reciprocating of harm" (Ahmad and Ibn Majah).
​

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica]The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) inferred the above principle from numerous Qur'anic verses that clearly forbid abuse, injury, or harm in every respect in all cases, and even more particularly in spousal relations. Thus we read a constant theme in the Qur'an:[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica][But do not retain them in order to harm or wrong them.] (Al-Baqarah 2:231)[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica][Do not harass them so as to make life intolerable for them.] (At-Talaq 65:6)[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica][A mother should not be made to suffer because of her child, nor should a father because of his child. The same duties devolve upon the father's heir.] (Al-Baqarah 2:233)[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica]Based on these and similar evidence, there is a consensus among scholars that where there is clear evidence of harm inflicted on a wife, she has every right to seek divorce from her husband.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica]The Qur'an has also established the principle that where spouses feel that they are so utterly incompatible with each other that they find themselves in a situation where they will not be able to protect themselves against sins, then they have a right to divorce. Thus we read in the sources that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) granted divorces to women who had complained to him that they were no longer happy with their husbands because of their incompatibility, while their husbands had no moral faults as such. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) never harassed these women by further questioning; he only told them to return the dower and gifts they had received from their husbands.[/FONT]
​

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica]Excerpted, with slight modifications, from www.islam.ca.[/FONT]
​

Giving talaaq (divorce) three times at once
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/2373/divorce

Do you even read what you google before pasting it?

Giving talaaq (divorce) three times at once is bid’ah, and goes against the aayah (interpretation of the meaning): “… When you divorce women, divorce them at their ‘iddah (prescribed periods)…” [al-Talaaq 65:1]
​

from the same link you provided by the way... bida'a means innovation as in, you shouldn't do it!

Divorced by saying the I divorce you (no reason needed)
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/36580/divorce

I like your addendum of no reason needed? I'll not touch upon this for the purposes of our topic, but Thank God Islam allows for a divorce without being excommunicated from the church such as in the dominant religion of the 'civilized west'!

Women who convert ti Islam must divorce kafir husbands
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/117/divorce

So? Have you ever asked a Muslim woman whether she wishes to remain married to a kaffir?

all the best

 

[aadil77]

The freedom to wear any form of clothing and bare any part of your body (other than the obvious bits).

I was expecting this one, what are the obvious bits? its not obvious anymore in the west. I'm sure in a couple years time you'll demand women have the right to go out fully naked, because its people like you that like perving on women wearing skimpy clothing and you wouldn't want them to be denied that right would you?oh: Just shows a bit about you, the fact that you list this first as a freedom

 

[جوري]

Yes, but why does one women suffice in the case of adultery, whereas it takes two in business related affairs? Come to think about it, if women have ulterior motives, they're more likely to accuse a fellow woman of adultery than fake a few numbers in a business transaction.

this should cover your Q on multiple accounts!

Name of Questioner

Akhtar ​

Title

Are Raped Women Asked to Bring Four Witnesses?​

Question

Dear scholars, As-Salamu `alaykum. When it says to bring four witnesses against a woman who has committed indecency, is it for the woman who has been raped or this is for a married woman whose husband is in doubt about her indecency? Please explain in detail.​

Date

29/Aug/2004​

Name of Counsellor

Ahmad Kutty​

Topic

Misconceptions​

Answer​

​

Wa `alaykum As-Salamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.


All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.


Dear brother in Islam, thanks a lot for your question which reflects your care to have a clear view of the teachings of Islam. Allah commands Muslims to refer to people of knowledge to get themselves well-acquainted with the teachings of Islam as well as all aspects of life.

In Islam, we are not allowed to tarnish the honor of anyone. One is required to produce four witnesses when making an allegation of adultery against another person; otherwise, one will be guilty of slandering.

A raped woman is a victim that must be treated with honor and kindness. She is not required to produce four witnesses to prove the crime done against her, nor is she punished for the crime done against her.

In his response to your question, Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states:

If a person makes an allegation of adultery against another person (male or female) he or she must produce four witnesses to support such an allegation; otherwise, he or she is guilty of slandering, which is a grave offense in Islam, for we are not to tarnish the honor of anyone.

A woman who has been raped cannot be asked to produce witnesses; her claim shall be accepted unless there are tangible grounds to prove otherwise. To insist that she provide witnesses is akin to inflicting further pain on her. If anyone refutes her claim of innocence, the onus is on him to provide evidence, and she may simply deny the claim by making a solemn oath, thus clearing herself in public. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “The onus to provide evidence falls on the one who makes a claim, and the one who denies (the same) can absolve himself or herself by making a solemn oath to the contrary.”

As for a spouse who witnesses his or her partner committing adultery and the other party denies it and they are unable to provide witnesses, they are, if they so desire, to part company by repudiating each other by engaging in what is known as a solemn oath and prayer of curse (li`an). It is described thus in the Qur’an: “And those who accuse their wives, and have no witnesses but themselves, then the testimony of each of them shall be a testimony sworn by God repeated four times, that he is indeed truthful. And the fifth (oath) is that God’s curse be upon him if he is lying. And it shall avert punishment from her that she testify a testimony repeated and sworn by God four times, that he is lying. And a fifth (oath) that the wrath of God be upon her, if he has spoken the truth” (An-Nur: 6-9).​

Excerpted, with slight modifications, from: www.muslims.ca

 

[Azy]

Isn't witnessing mostly about memoy? The Quran says the second woman is there to correct the fist one in case she errs.

No.. in everyday life witness isn't about memory.
It is about high fidelity to the events and no ulterior motives!

PICKTHAL: When ye contract a debt for a fixed term, record it in writing... And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not (at hand) then a man and two women, of such as ye approve as witnesses, so that if the one erreth (through forgetfulness) the other will remember. (2:282)

I'll argue that women have a better memory than men

I don't get it.

 

[جوري]

PICKTHAL: When ye contract a debt for a fixed term, record it in writing... And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not (at hand) then a man and two women, of such as ye approve as witnesses, so that if the one erreth (through forgetfulness) the other will remember. (2:282)

I don't get it.

Business transactions are 'frontal cortex based' not 'hippocampus' based.. thus I am not sure what is difficult to understand? is that you have no abstract thinking?

all the best

 

[Amadeus85]

I dont understand why You are arguing peeps. Muslims want islamic law in their countries. Thats simple as 2+2=4.We, giaurs, wont live there, so why we care? And we demand from all those coming to us to obey our law. Is there something more simple than that?

 

['Abd-al Latif]

Ah respected Skye, I was wondering when you'd join us. . . .

Freedom . .
The freedom to wear any form of clothing and bare any part of your body (other than the obvious bits).
The freedom to send your daughter to any school you choose.
The freedom to choose your own friends, partners, husbands without being accompanied.
The freedom to marry a non-Muslim.
The freedom to work outside the home.
The freedom to work with men.
The freedom to shake a mans hand.
The freedom not to be stoned to death for adultery.

AAhh, freedom.

How sweet is the freedom for a muslim woman who walks dignified without being harrassed.
How sweet freedom is to be veiled from the perverted clutches of a strange man.
How sweet freedom is not for a muslim woman to dress up for a strange man.
How sweet it is for a muslim woman to be a precious jewel for her one man.
How sweet freedom is for a Muslim woman to be taught to marry a dignified Muslim man.
How Islam preaches sweet freedom, to stone to death the man and woman guilty of adultry and free us from those who destroy families and society.
How sweet is Islamic freedom who restricts sending children from going to certain schools to preserve their piety in a corrupt society.
How sweet is Islamic freedom that restricts the muslim woman to work with men to preserve her chastity and modesty.
How sweet is freedom for a Muslim woman who is a jewel in her own home.
How sweet is freedom in her own home, a fortified protection when she is alone.
How sweet is Islamic freedom that teachs her virtues that will last.
How sweet it is, this religion which a muslim does hold fast!

 

[جوري]

^^ when Muslim women don't work, the only ones who suffer are Muslim women.
Islam doesn't restrict a woman from working..
we need Muslim women scholars, doctors, teachers, pharmacists, engineers, merchants, accountants, chefs, etc, etc.

I believe it a serious obligation not an injunction to serve wo/man kind..

and Allah swt knows best

 

[Thinker]

I was expecting this one, what are the obvious bits? its not obvious anymore in the west. I'm sure in a couple years time you'll demand women have the right to go out fully naked, because its people like you that like perving on women wearing skimpy clothing and you wouldn't want them to be denied that right would you?oh: Just shows a bit about you, the fact that you list this first as a freedom

You gave me negative reps accusing me of taking the p***.

Why is it whenever anyone questions some aspect of Islam which is difficult to explain that Muslims get angry and defensive?

You can dress it up and dance around it all you like but it is a fact that women are not equal to men in Islam and that’s fact. You might not like being asked to explain why but don’t accuse the questioner of taking the p***.

In trying to understand what life would be like living under sharia law we (in the west) have few examples; they are the Taliban controlled areas and countries like Somalia. Again, you might not like the way they portray life under sharia but they don’t care what you think because they are 100% sure they have got it right. Now, because I quote them as examples of sharia and you find it uncomfortable you accuse me of taking the p*** and give me negative reps – that’s immature - and I’m being polite!

 

[Thinker]

A woman can divorce her husband in Islam!

Indeed she can - but only with the permission of a man!

 

[Thinker]

I dont understand why You are arguing peeps. Muslims want islamic law in their countries. Thats simple as 2+2=4.We, giaurs, wont live there, so why we care? And we demand from all those coming to us to obey our law. Is there something more simple than that?

What's a giaur?

 

['Abd-al Latif]

Indeed she can - but only with the permission of a man!

Thinker, Keep things in context and don't speak for definite unless you have understood fully the Islamic rulings. That's if shes divorcing for wrong reasons such as pronouncing divorce while she was emotional or if she's divorcing for no reason at all.

There are even hadeeth which state that women wanted a divorce during the lifetime of the Prophet (saaws) and they had their reasons, and the divorce took place.

The evidence from the Sunnah is the hadeeth narrated by al-Bukhaari in his Saheeh (4867) from Ibn Abbaas, in which it says that the wife of Thaabit ibn Qays came to the Messenger of Allaah (saaws) and said, "O Messenger of Allah, I do not blame Thaabit ibn Qays for any defect in his character or his religious commitment, but I would hate to commit an act of kufr (disbelief) when I am a Muslim." The Messenger of Allah (saaws) said, "Will you give him back his garden [which he had given as dowry]?" She said, "Yes.” The Messenger of Allah (saws) said (to Thaabit), "Accept the garden, and divorce her once."

Her saying "but I would hate to commit an act of kufr (disbelief)" means that she wasn't attracted to him and did not want to be sinful, so she asked for a divorce. The condition she was given was to return back her dowry and she accepted and the divorce took place.

So stop generalizing. Islam is a religion that covers every aspect of our lives so certain rulings aren't general for all cases, there are many specific rulings which cover a wide varity of different scenarios so a certain condition which is generally known by the masses may not necessarly be the final verdict.

 

[Azy]

Business transactions are 'frontal cortex based' not 'hippocampus' based.. thus I am not sure what is difficult to understand? is that you have no abstract thinking?

What I don't understand is that it explicitly states that an aid to memory is the reason an extra woman is required.
They are there in the capacity of witnesses to an event, not accountants, their memory is all that is required.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Thinker, Keep things in context and don't speak for definite unless you have understood fully the Islamic rulings. That's if shes divorcing for wrong reasons such as pronouncing divorce while she was emotional or if she's divorcing for no reason at all.

There are even hadeeth which state that woman wanted a divorce during the lifetime of the Prophet (saaws) and they had their reasons, and the divorce took place.

The evidence from the Sunnah is the hadeeth narrated by al-Bukhaari in his Saheeh (4867) from Ibn Abbaas, in which it says that the wife of Thaabit ibn Qays came to the Messenger of Allaah (saaws) and said, "O Messenger of Allah, I do not blame Thaabit ibn Qays for any defect in his character or his religious commitment, but I would hate to commit an act of kufr (disbelief) when I am a Muslim." The Messenger of Allah (saaws) said, "Will you give him back his garden [which he had given as dowry]?" She said, "Yes.” The Messenger of Allah (saws) said (to Thaabit), "Accept the garden, and divorce her once."

Her saying "but I would hate to commit an act of kufr (disbelief)" means that she wasn't attracted to him and did not want to be sinful, so she asked for a divorce. The condition she was given was to return back her dowry and she accepted and the divorce took place.

So stop generalizing. Islam is a religion that covers every aspect of our lives so certain rulings aren't general for all cases, there are many specific rulings which cover a wide varity of different scenarios so a certain condition which is generally known by the masses may not necessarly be the final verdict.

Can a man divorce his wife for no given reason?

 

[aamirsaab]

What I don't understand is that it explicitly states that an aid to memory is the reason an extra woman is required.
They are there in the capacity of witnesses to an event, not accountants, their memory is all that is required.

And as I said many many posts ago, it is entirely up to the Judge at the end of the day. Judge has a lot of power in Islamic court room. They literally have the fate of someone's life in their hands - their power (in court room) is on par with that level of responsibility.

Edit:

Can a man divorce his wife for no given reason?

He can denounce talaaq (call for divorce) for no reason but it won't fly in a court room. So, no. He cannot divorce his wife for 'no reason'.