First Corrupted Verse

[جوري]

There a large number of traditions relating to transmission of the Qu'ran and they don't all agree. Whether all the written down portions were collected cannot be affirmed and in any case what you refer to was a first collection but a second one was made later. Why make a second collection, why collect in all the copies that did exist and destroy them if there were no variations etc.

They don't agree with you and ibn warraq. I know.. But the painstaking task of the hafsah manuscript written in entirety during the prophet's life, along with two witnesses to every verse written down in the four original Qurans which were sent out with a hafith to each town, to teach it in its original queryshi dialect ensured its preservation to the T to how it was revealed.

I have a few stories and poems written by my in several diaries here and there. I have written them all out on the computer printed and compiled them into one and destroyed the originals.. for no other reason other than not wanting loads of dispersed papers. I have also compiled them in the order of events for the interest of my familt and friends... I have my works and poems from my under grad. Some during my trip to England, some during grad school. Who is to say that if I didn't compile them in the style that I like that someone might read the England yrs before the under grad yrs, and be slightly confused..
does that mean what is written on paper differs from what I have on the computer.. not at all.. but in order for proper reservation of my work, I destroyed the extra stuff...

There is really nothing here other than straw men for you to hang on too, and sadly they too fail you as everyone can see through the transperancy of your charade....

 

[AntiKarateKid]

You miss the point, the criteria are not acceptable. You might think them acceptable and that is fine but me and others may not. Suppose I create criteria and I add: "Must contain no changes of mind in its text" will you accept that?

If you can can create a set of criteria that we might agree on then we can do the test but how can you know the criteria are the right ones, how can we check that. So can you show that those criteria are the right ones? Of course we have to be aware that they only make sense at all if we accept the idea of God.

We have a dilemma and your criteria might be worded like a question of Socrates "Is what is holy holy because the gods approve it, or do they approve it because it is holy." In other words are you starting from the Islamic position and defining the criteria to match it or did you start with an open mind?

If I can state it in research terms then problem is to confirm a book, any book was written by God. (I take it we can agree that any book has to be written down by someone human?)

The project then is how we can set about doing that and how can we show our method to be foolproof? We can use logic perhaps, we can set criteria inductively, create and hypothesis, etc but using normal standards we should do all we can to falsify the claim and if it stand up to our most brutal attacks then we can begin to feel it is true.

Note. It is best if you read what was it is written, I did not say the Bible was 'huge' I was talking about the manuscript evidence that support it.

I had to do a double take at your post. THESE ARE NOT CRITERIA!!!! :enough!::enough!::enough!:


THEY ARE EXAMPLES! Did you even bother reading the FIRST sentence of my post??

Stop skirting around the darn question, if you had two books with those respective traits which one would you consider more credible and likely to be from God!

 

[Hugo]

Not at all, indeed there is nothing in existence like it, but the challenge is open for you to come up with better if you can with all the criteria listed!
Did God proclaim himself a Shepard in any of his books? God has no such occupation That is nice.. but so is this!

Do not stand at my grave and weep,
I am not there, I do not sleep.
I am a thousand winds that blow.
I am the diamond glint on snow.
I am the sunlight on ripened grain.
I am the gentle autumn rain.
When you wake in the morning hush,
I am the swift, uplifting rush
Of quiet birds in circling flight.
I am the soft starlight at night.
Do not stand at my grave and weep.
I am not there, I do not sleep.
Do not stand at my grave and cry.
I am not there, I did not die!
Do not stand at my grave and weep.
I am not there, I do not sleep.
I am the song that will never end.
I am the love of family and friend.
I am the child who has come to rest
In the arms of the Father
who knows him best.
When you see the sunset fair,
I am the scented evening air.
I am the joy of a task well done.
I am the glow of the setting sun.
Do not stand at my grave and weep.
I am not there, I do not sleep.
Do not stand at my grave and cry.
I am not there, I did not die!
~ Author Unknown ~

pretty indeed, but rhyme isn't what it is all about! all the best

So the challenge failed you, you could not find find anything to match or transcend Psalm 23 in the Qu'ran - remember, you are the one who is claiming superiority.

 

[Brasco]

Of course I get information from what I read - where does yours come from?

You know very well what kind of reading I mean! reading anti-islamic sites

 

[جوري]

Why don't you get a copy of Professor Farid Esack's book (ISBN 978-1-85168-624-7) then you might learn something also about the Qu'ran. I am willing to accept that I might be deluded but sadly the thought that you might be deluded never crosses your mind?

I have lived quite the chunk of my life not practicing Islam at all, if I am a Muslim today, it is the result of study not delusions..

Why do you spend so much of your time obsessed with Islam and the orientalist agenda? is it because it shakes you to the core? perhaps your man/god worship might actually be the real delusion here?


just go eat Jesus' body, drink his blood, sing and clap, and leave us in peace!

 

[جوري]

So the challenge failed you, you could not find find anything to match or transcend Psalm 23 in the Qu'ran - remember, you are the one who is claiming superiority.

I can listen to JUST 10 verses from suret Al'momnoon and know exactly my purpose here on earth and never tire to listen and be moved again and again, to ten verses or the entire Quran.. Where as your Shepard poem is no different or superior to anon's poem about death...

[MEDIA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnMsUWruRfY[/MEDIA]​

 

[Grace Seeker]

I can listen to JUST 10 verses from suret Al'momnoon and know exactly my purpose here on earth and never tire to listen and be moved again and again, to ten verses or the entire Quran.. Where as your Shepard poem is no different or superior to anon's poem about death...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnMsUWruRfY​

And if another thinks exactly the opposite of you, does that change things? No. You would still find value in what you find value in and the other person in what they find value in. The subjective evaluation by people of those verses that speak best to them is hardly a tool by which one can determine truth and falsehood, or even the objective astetic beauty of verse. For these are matters of personal opinion. One might even take a vote and with one clear winner 1 million to 1, but that would not negate the holder of the lone dissenting vote from having spoken truly that his favored verse was indeed superior to him. Claims of superiority based on such measurements in the end can never be more than just claims.

 

[Hugo]

I had to do a double take at your post. THESE ARE NOT CRITERIA!!!! :enough!::enough!::enough!: Stop skirting around the darn question, if you had two books with those respective traits which one would you consider more credible and likely to be from God!

Are you saying your criteria are the Only ones possible?

 

[Hugo]

I have lived quite the chunk of my life not practicing Islam at all, if I am a Muslim today, it isn't the result of study not delusions..

Why do you spend so much of your time obsessed with Islam and the orientalist agenda? is it because it shakes you to the core? perhaps your man/god worship might actually be the real delusion here?

just go eat Jesus' body, drink his blood, sing and clap, and leave us in peace!

Well what is it the result of, what made you turn to it?

 

[جوري]

And if another thinks exactly the opposite of you, does that change things? No. You would still find value in what you find value in and the other person in what they find value in. The subjective evaluation by people of those verses that speak best to them is hardly a tool by which one can determine truth and falsehood, or even the objective astetic beauty of verse. For these are matters of personal opinion. One might even take a vote and with one clear winner 1 million to 1, but that would not negate the holder of the lone dissenting vote from having spoken truly that his favored verse was indeed superior to him. Claims of superiority based on such measurements in the end can never be more than just claims.

the evaluations aren't subjective, it is in fact what draws people into Islam to begin with. We have had a new member here whose SN is love Quran. He isn't yet a Muslim and I don't know whether or not he'll convert, but his attraction to Islam is the Quran. Almost anyone who puts it to the test without pre-conceived notions but with sincerity comes with the same conclusion, its layers upon layers captivate and allure ..

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/13998-prove-quran-word-god-4.html

[MEDIA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IMFLu2TzFU[/MEDIA]
​

http://communityquran.com/quran/translate/ASD/surah/56 (Translation)

 

[Grace Seeker]

An article he wrote titled "Islam's Shame" begins with the following sentence:

"Islam is deeply anti-woman".

I stopped right there. Anybody with any real knowledge of Islam knows this is not true.

My main problem will all these Islamic critics is that they are criticizing the actions of Muslims, not the religion itself. They view the religion through the eyes of a modernist and as though Muslims today are shining examples of Islam's true teachings.

I'll dig up some more stuff, but I'm sure it all tows the same line.

Just like I stop reading posts when they begin with statements like Paul is the founder of Christianity, or Jesus only came to his own people and his message wasn't for any other groups. Anybody with real knowledge of the Christian scriptures knows this is not true.

-------------------------------------------
Now I don't know how you feel about my above statement, but doesn't it represent a closed mind?

While I do happen to agree with those who want to say such things about either Paul or Jesus, I think to ignore their posts simply because I disagree with their thesis sentence shows an unwillingness on my part to be open to alternative undestandings. Maybe what they say in the remainder of their post would substantiate their views? Maybe they have new information to share? Maybe I they are viewing things through a different lens than I do, and if I would be willing to take just a moment to see things as I do, even if I don't reach the same ultimate conclusion that they do, maybe I they can still help me to see some things that I need to further consider.

It probably is true that those who start with these types of old and tired lines about either Islam or Christianity are just parroting stuff said by others many times before, and for that reason I can understand why you might not feel inclined to waste your energies on them a second or a third time or a hundredth time. But every now and then you might be surprised to find that someone does have something new to share, and on those occassions you might be glad you at least read what they had to say, even if you never accept their thesis.

 

[Grace Seeker]

the evaluations aren't subjective, it is in fact what draws people into Islam to begin with. We have had a new member here whose SN is love Quran. He isn't yet a Muslim and I don't know whether or not he'll convert, but his attraction to Islam is the Quran. Almost anyone who puts it to the test without pre-conceived notions but with sincerity comes with the same conclusion, its layers upon layers captivate and allure ..

I feel certain that he is going to become a Muslim. And I don't doubt that he feels attracted by the Qur'an. And it may be fact that it is the apparent beauty of the Qur'an that draws many into Islam. But that doesn't make it fact that the Qur'an is beauty. Such is not a logical syllogism.

But be it Love_Quran's attraction, yours, or the whole world's it remains true that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and that makes beauty and attractiiveness subjective -- subject to each individual eye and what it considers to be beauty.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Are you saying your criteria are the Only ones possible?

My God.... are you joking. For the last time they are not criteria. They are descriptions of two books. Now pick which one seems more credible.

 

[Hugo]

Consider this for a moment Grace Seeker. Pretend that we both are without a religion and are contemplating what the perfect holy book would be like. Ill give 2 examples.

Book A
1. Variants in its manuscripts
2. Authors in some cases are unknown.
3. Was compiled in its present day form years after its respective revelation, without input from its messenger.
4. If some madman burned every existing copy of book A, most of it would be lost forever, a crippling blow to the religion

Book B has
1. No variants in manuscript.
2. Author is known.
3. Was compiled and completed during the process of revelation by its messenger.
4. If some madman burned every existing copy of book B, its adherents who have memorized it would write it anew, thus ensuring the survival of said religion until every single adherent was killed.

If I look at the above then they are answers one supposes to questions and they presuppose that we are talking about a book that claims to be a revelation from God, not any book. If they are to be fair questions they have to be the same for both books so what where the original questions (if they are posted somewhere just tell me)? Were they as follows but how Q4 is an indicator or God given escapes me and you appear to have no concern for content.

1. Are there variant readings of the book or books in the manuscript collection?

2. Are the author or authors known for the book or books?

3. When was the content complied?

4. If all known copies as well as the manuscript collection were destroyed simultaneously could the book or books be reconstructed?

If you agree we might give it a go with some supposed God given books?

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Just like I stop reading posts when they begin with statements like Paul is the founder of Christianity, or Jesus only came to his own people and his message wasn't for any other groups. Anybody with real knowledge of the Christian scriptures knows this is not true.

-------------------------------------------
Now I don't know how you feel about my above statement, but doesn't it represent a closed mind?

While I do happen to agree with those who want to say such things about either Paul or Jesus, I think to ignore their posts simply because I disagree with their thesis sentence shows an unwillingness on my part to be open to alternative undestandings. Maybe what they say in the remainder of their post would substantiate their views? Maybe they have new information to share? Maybe I they are viewing things through a different lens than I do, and if I would be willing to take just a moment to see things as I do, even if I don't reach the same ultimate conclusion that they do, maybe I they can still help me to see some things that I need to further consider.

It probably is true that those who start with these types of old and tired lines about either Islam or Christianity are just parroting stuff said by others many times before, and for that reason I can understand why you might not feel inclined to waste your energies on them a second or a third time or a hundredth time. But every now and then you might be surprised to find that someone does have something new to share, and on those occassions you might be glad you at least read what they had to say, even if you never accept their thesis.

Seeker, could you please choose Book A or Book B? Which example would seem more credible/from God. Let's pretend we aren't Christian or Muslim and try and make a pick.

 

[جوري]

I feel certain that he is going to become a Muslim. And I don't doubt that he feels attracted by the Qur'an. And it may be fact that it is the apparent beauty of the Qur'an that draws many into Islam. But that doesn't make it fact that the Qur'an is beauty. Such is not a logical syllogism.

But be it Love_Quran's attraction, yours, or the whole world's it remains true that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and that makes beauty and attractiiveness subjective -- subject to each individual eye and what it considers to be beauty.

I have never said the only thing attractive about the Quran is its linguistics and recitations. It certainly is what makes it exceptional.
The fact that non-Arabic speakers understand and want to live by its principles just the same is a testament that its exceptional language and power to move and impress upon the heart and the mind.

Again, it isn't a subjective thing.. When I read the Quran with hatred toward islam in my heart but to keep a promise to my sister, all I found were verses about punishment.. When I read with an open mind at random the very first I opened to, was
'Successful are the believers' -- that surah is indeed special to me, since I believe that s/he who truly wishes to be led aright, all but have to ask God to show them the path with sincerity and they'll be led to the straight path.

It might surprise you indeed, that I read and find some biblical passages moving 'love like a priceless treasure' 'walking in the valley of the shadow of death'-- but it always sours and taints once I go deeper..

And it gets dark when I think of its core principles concentrate upon man/worship and sins pre-paid and the death of God!

 

[Grace Seeker]

I have never said the only thing attractive about the Quran is its linguistics and recitations. It certainly is what makes it exceptional.

OK. Since I don't speak Arabic, I can't really speak to that. But I certainly accept that it is that way for you and for many.

Even as an English speaker I can see that there are many parts of the Qur'an that would resonate in many people's hearts. I can't say that I feel that way about the whole of it, but maybe my expectations were too high when I first read it so that no book could have measured up. But I also found it a lot like Proverbs in the Bible, which is a part of my own scriptures that generally don't speak to me the way other people tell me they speak to them. So, it's probably just the way I'm put together and process things.

Seeker, could you please choose Book A or Book B? Which example would seem more credible/from God. Let's pretend we aren't Christian or Muslim and try and make a pick.

AKK, I've already answered your question, though it is now buried some pages back.

 

[Hugo]

My God.... are you joking. For the last time they are not criteria. They are descriptions of two books. Now pick which one seems more credible.

You must be joking, of course thy are criteria and you are asking us to make a choice.

 

[جوري]

OK. Since I don't speak Arabic, I can't really speak to that. But I certainly accept that it is that way for you and for many.

Even as an English speaker I can see that there are many parts of the Qur'an that would resonate in many people's hearts. I can't say that I feel that way about the whole of it, but maybe my expectations were too high when I first read it so that no book could have measured up. But I also found it a lot like Proverbs in the Bible, which is a part of my own scriptures that generally don't speak to me the way other people tell me they speak to them. So, it's probably just the way I'm put together and process things.


AKK, I've already answered your question, though it is now buried some pages back.

There is no compulsion in religion.. you are free to your feelings.. certainly Allah swt through the Quran, tells us that it is an individual choice...

Now, to be honest I don't recall asking any questions.. which is ok just the same.. I prefer to put the rest of the day to better use..

all the best

 

[جوري]

BTW Gene.. I do sincerely wish you the best.. it is not lip service.. I can tell you made a monumental effort on this thread to be diplomatic!