Non-Muslims and Islam

[Rhubarb Tart]

Maybe I should stop reading this forum.

You have a Muslim saying that it is incumbent upon all Muslims to be unfriendly with non-Muslims, expressing their hatred of people who follow other religions, and other Muslims are creating posts simply to compliment her.

Maybe Islamaphobia is justified.

A Muslim always has to say the truth and should not comprise their faith for others.
So when speaking to a non Muslim about Islam, Muslim should sticks to the truth but speak to just, appropriate and polite manner.
A Muslim should not say oh you may be one of the few people as a non Muslim going to heaven. They always stick the true teaching, and say how it is. Explain their stance, but that does not mean they should be horrible to a non Muslim.

 

[CosmicPathos]

Maybe I should stop reading this forum.

You have a Muslim saying that it is incumbent upon all Muslims to be unfriendly with non-Muslims, expressing their hatred of people who follow other religions, and other Muslims are creating posts simply to compliment her.

Maybe Islamaphobia is justified.

you would do us a great service by stopping to read intellectual forums like ours. But a disservice to yourself.

Yes. A Muslim should not be-friend kaafirs. Those who have rejected the Oneness of Allah, they do not deserve friendship of slaves of Allah. Rather their actions should be abhorred.

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

It depend how you define befriending. Is debating with a non Muslim about religion befriending? Is talking to a non Muslim about current situations befriending? Is working with a non Muslim in school and work environment befriending? Is talking to non Muslim next door neighbour from time to time befriending?

What is befriending?

 

[h-n]

You believe as a Muslim that it is incumbent upon you to hate non-Muslims.

I don't know anyone who hates Muslims because they are decent. Some do use the excuse that it is because Muslims hate all non-Muslims, though. You epitomize that.

You are a shining example of intolerance and hatred, and you find that to be a badge of honor and something to be proud of.

How sad.

What did you think Islam was about? That the Prophets went around hugging and kissing people?
Why are you telling me to be nice to non-Muslims when the angels don't like you either? When they are being sent to Hell, what is that you expect me to do, say to others here is my friend.


You being critical of me, because I-

1. Hate idol worship,
2. Hate homosexuality,
3. Hate lewd people.
4. Why should I lilke something that would send me to Hell??
5. Why are you telling me to like something which the Prophets Noah, Lut, Jesus, Moses peace be upon them rejected?
6. Why are you complaining that I don't like you when Allah is not pleased with sinners???

You come from your corrupted Christian backgrounds that changed religion, religion is were evil and good people are seperate, we are not the same and never will be. A person going to Paradise is not the same as going to Hell.


How can you accuse Islam of being intolerant just because we don't like idol worship, lewd people etc? WE are not nice because we hate things that God himself does not like?? Just showing how stupid you are being.
Are you going to complain that when sinners are sent to Hell, that no one likes them then too?

Instead of derailng this thread, create your own and talk about not hating homosexuals, idol worshippers etc.

 

[h-n]

great discussion. Mashalla at your posts h-n.

Thank-you, Allah has always allowed us to speak in the way that people understand, and the masses do understand that word as being used to describe a sinful, non-believer, one who is going to Hell.

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

The Prophets went around hugging and kissing people.

The prophet peace be upon them did not necessarily cussed or expressed hate towards other either.

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

I need someone more knowledgeable to step in because I am hearing two different opinions.

Are we honestly as Muslim meant to hate non Muslims?

I thought we meant to hate the sin not the sinners?

Because I have seen scholars say we meant to treat non Muslim with polite and just manners. And some say we can be friends but not close friends.

And I also found this thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/advice-support/22601-non-muslim-friends-2.html

That topic confuses me more!

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

http://alghazzali.org/resources/articles/friendship.pdf

http://www.islamicboard.com/general/134290289-am-i-infidel-3.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/advice-...uld-we-take-part-non-muslim-celebrations.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/world-affairs/134296482-friendship-between-muslims-non-muslims.html

 

[titus]

You being critical of me, because I-

1. Hate idol worship,
2. Hate homosexuality,
3. Hate lewd people.
4. Why should I lilke something that would send me to Hell??
5. Why are you telling me to like something which the Prophets Noah, Lut, Jesus, Moses peace be upon them rejected?
6. Why are you complaining that I don't like you when Allah is not pleased with sinners???

Wrong. I am critical of people that hate other people based on their religion.

I find it wrong.

A nice person sent me THIS LINK. I prefer this version of Islam over the hate-filled version you and mad-scientist and others preach.

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

How does Islam say to deal with Non Muslims? Former Christian Minister Yusuf Estes on TheDeenShow
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQTHVJ68MCI

 

[Lynx]

Polytheism is not the only form of Shirk (associating partners with God). There is many other implicit forms :
If you give divine attributes to a human, then you are associating him with God. If you obey a human (a Jewish rabbi for example) when he tells you that's permissible (halal) and that's not (haram) without reference to God, then you are making him a God. If you believe that a human or a thing can help you in your future and give you rizq (livelihood) if you address him/it with prayer or with sacrifice(offering), then you are making him/it God.
And if you make prayer just to make people admire you, and you forget that your prayer should be addressed to Allah, then this is another subtle form of Shirk : Rya'a (hypocrisy)


Qur'an :

How does any of that constitute as associating with God? I think the dentist will fix my teeth so I pay him to fix them. Can you perhaps clarify why committing any of those entails that someone believes in more than one God? Also, while you're at it, can you show me examples of Jews doing that?


Also, in the case of Christians, as titus points out, the Quran talks about Christians believing in the trinity but at the same time it allows for a marriage between A muslim male and a Christian woman so I don't think the monotheism has anything to do with marriage.

 

[CosmicPathos]

How does any of that constitute as associating with God? I think the dentist will fix my teeth so I pay him to fix them. Can you perhaps clarify why committing any of those entails that someone believes in more than one God? Also, while you're at it, can you show me examples of Jews doing that?


Also, in the case of Christians, as titus points out, the Quran talks about Christians believing in the trinity but at the same time it allows for a marriage between A muslim male and a Christian woman so I don't think the monotheism has anything to do with marriage.

yea it allows marriage with what sort of Christian woman? The pagan Christian or the one who believed in monotheistic God?

I do not think Islam can give leeway to one of its adherents to marry someone who is from a religion which Islam so "obsessively" condemns in its entirety.

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

I see a lot of Muslim men marrying non Muslim even Hindus etc women today.

@ Mad scientist
Do you believe there is any Christian or Jewish women Muslim men can marry theseday? Or do you think there is none in this world?

 

[CosmicPathos]

I see a lot of Muslim men marrying non Muslim even Hindus etc women today.

@ Mad scientist
Do you believe there is any Christian or Jewish women Muslim men can marry theseday? Or do you think there is none in this world?

If there is any monotheistic Jewish or Christian woman alive today then a Muslim man can marry her. And if she would be really rational, she'd realize that Islam is a real monotheistic religion while Bible is full of fables of a God-turned-man, and she'd eventually accept Islam, by will of Allah.

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

If there is any monotheistic Jewish or Christian woman alive today then a Muslim man can marry her. And if she would be really rational, she'd realize that Islam is a real monotheistic religion while Bible is full of fables of a God-turned-man, and she'd eventually accept Islam, by will of Allah.

Jazakallahu khaayr for your response.

Is there any today and at what countries that is what I wanted to know. Do you know?

 

[marwen]

How does any of that constitute as associating with God?

association = having one or more properties/attributes/ownership in common.

I think the dentist will fix my teeth so I pay him to fix them.

I'm sorry, I don't understand the example. If you compare prayer with exchange(money for service), the comparison doesn't work.

Can you perhaps clarify why committing any of those entails that someone believes in more than one God?

if a property p can only be owned by an object X (X(p)=true), and You suppose that an object Y has the same property p (Y(p) = true), then the only implicit conclusion is that you (un)consciously admit that X = Y. I said implicit because a big number of people are doing this equivalence between a God and another Object unconsciously.

Also, while you're at it, can you show me examples of Jews doing that?

The basic book that should be followed by Jews is the bible revealed to Prophet Musa (Moses) (alayhi essalam). But Jews are not following the bible directly, they are following the interpretations(talmuds) of the bible made by Jewish rabbis who decide what is to be done and what's not, and let alone the changes that these rabbis make to the original version of the bible.
Another example of Shirk done by Jews is worshiping the Calf instead of God. I'm not sure Jews are still worshiping such idols, but it can give an idea about the weakness of the Jewish doctrine.

Also, in the case of Christians, as titus points out, the Quran talks about Christians believing in the trinity but at the same time it allows for a marriage between A muslim male and a Christian woman so I don't think the monotheism has anything to do with marriage.

Muslim male is allowed to marry a woman of the book (christian, jewish). I can't find any restriction about monotheistic or polytheistic chrisrtians/jews.

 

[Lynx]

association = having one or more properties/attributes/ownership in common.


I'm sorry, I don't understand the example. If you compare prayer with exchange(money for service), the comparison doesn't work.


if a property p can only be owned by an object X (X(p)=true), and You suppose that an object Y has the same property p (Y(p) = true), then the only implicit conclusion is that you (un)consciously admit that X = Y. I said implicit because a big number of people are doing this equivalence between a God and another Object unconsciously.

Sorry, ignore the dentist example as I misread your previous post. I understand how implicit implication works but I am not convinced that some of the things you mentioned in your previous post constitute as polytheism nor am I convinced Jews do any of what you mentioned even if it is polytheism.

The basic book that should be followed by Jews is the bible revealed to Prophet Musa (Moses) (alayhi essalam). But Jews are not following the bible directly, they are following the interpretations(talmuds) of the bible made by Jewish rabbis who decide what is to be done and what's not, and let alone the changes that these rabbis make to the original version of the bible.

First and foremost, even in Islam you are not supposed to follow the quran 'directly'. If that was the case then every Muslim should be capable of writing a tafsir but clearly tafsirs are left to qualified scholars. Second, you need to provide citations to the claims you made about Rabbis going beyond just interpretation ( I guess your claim is about going beyond interpretation since no one has a problem with scholars interpreting religious texts in general). Third, even if you are able to show that Rabbis corrupted the text, in order to get your argument to work you have to show that Jews are AWARE that their Bible is corrupted AND that Jews still follow the religion with this in mind. This latter point is important because even if a text is corrupted, if Jews don't know the text is corrupted then in their minds they are following God's word.

Another example of Shirk done by Jews is worshiping the Calf instead of God. I'm not sure Jews are still worshiping such idols, but it can give an idea about the weakness of the Jewish doctrine.

You know, obviously if they worshipped calves & the Biblical God you can call them polytheists. They don't worship calves & the weakness of the Jewish doctrine is irrelevant.

Muslim male is allowed to marry a woman of the book (christian, jewish). I can't find any restriction about monotheistic or polytheistic chrisrtians/jews.

yep this was in response to mad_scientist.

 

[marwen]

I understand how implicit implication works but I am not convinced that some of the things you mentioned in your previous post constitute as polytheism nor am I convinced Jews do any of what you mentioned even if it is polytheism.

Where did I mention that Jews are practicing full Polytheism ?
Your question was that :

How do Jews associate partners with God?

My response was that Polytheism is one form of "associating partners with God" (Shirk); and there is other forms that I explained, done by Jews.

First and foremost, even in Islam you are not supposed to follow the quran 'directly'. If that was the case then every Muslim should be capable of writing a tafsir but clearly tafsirs are left to qualified scholars. Second, you need to provide citations to the claims you made about Rabbis going beyond just interpretation ( I guess your claim is about going beyond interpretation since no one has a problem with scholars interpreting religious texts in general).

I can give citations from the qur'an if you want saying the bible is corrupt , not from the bible (if there is a clear verse in the bible saying : "hey, this book you're reading is corrupt !", then I'll mention it) . The contradiction/scientific inconsistence argument will also work (what is discussed in many other threads).

Third, even if you are able to show that Rabbis corrupted the text, in order to get your argument to work you have to show that Jews are AWARE that their Bible is corrupted AND that Jews still follow the religion with this in mind. This latter point is important because even if a text is corrupted, if Jews don't know the text is corrupted then in their minds they are following God's word.

Why ? unconsciousness does not deny the act. Are they guilty or not ? that's another question.

You know, obviously if they worshipped calves & the Biblical God you can call them polytheists. They don't worship calves & the weakness of the Jewish doctrine is irrelevant.

The Golden Calf (just one), not the calves like hindus. That happened once in the Jewish history in the time of prophet Moses.

 

[User_23338]

I will never marry a non-muslim, because I know it's haraam and the Christians and Jews today are very different and they do shirk, so it's better to marry someone that is either born Muslim or converted to Islam, so you don't have to go through that mess about converting and explaining, I would marry a Muslim girl that already has knowledge about islam.

 

[Lynx]

Where did I mention that Jews are practicing full Polytheism ?
Your question was that :

​

My response was that Polytheism is one form of "associating partners with God" (Shirk); and there is other forms that I explained, done by Jews.

mad_scientist mentioned that Jews are not monotheistic and I was responding to him so the discussion has originally been about whether or not Jews are monotheistic or not. You entered the discussion by saying Jews associate partners with God so I thought you meant they have more than one God (or in the case of Christians some kind of Trinity where there are differnet incarnations of God). I don't want to discuss whether Jews commit shirk according to Islam because Muslims themselves can't agree on what constitutes shirk & this is irrelevant anyway; polytheism does not mean the same thing as shirk. Anyway, you haven't shown how Jews commit shirk you've only defined what shirk is and proceeded to say Jews do it without any backing except the (baseless) comment about the Bible being corrupted which I responded to in my previous post.

I can give citations from the qur'an if you want saying the bible is corrupt , not from the bible (if there is a clear verse in the bible saying : "hey, this book you're reading is corrupt !", then I'll mention it) . The contradiction/scientific inconsistence argument will also work (what is discussed in many other threads).

The Qur'an isn't an objective authority on the Bible so no I don't want verses from Quran. I am well aware of what the Quran says about the Bible. And no, contradictions and scientific inconsistencies are not relevant in this discussion; whether the Bible has errors has nothing to do with whether Jews are monotheists.

Why ? unconsciousness does not deny the act. Are they guilty or not ? that's another question.

People can't unconsciously be polytheists. Polytheism means the belief in more than one God.

The Golden Calf (just one), not the calves like hindus. That happened once in the Jewish history in the time of prophet Moses.

This is entirely irrelevant. I don't care about whether Jews were polytheists 2500 years ago and neither should you in this discussion since we are talking about Modern Jews..