The context is if the title of the sura is anything to go by is about repentance but what is clear is the threat to those who don't believe, and make no mistake it is a threat so it is an intolerant position and I find that unacceptable and an encouragement to violence and all in the name of God - see 9:38 which is all about war.
Islam has copied (say the Christians and the Jews)
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The context is if the title of the sura is anything to go by is about repentance but what is clear is the threat to those who don't believe, and make no mistake it is a threat so it is an intolerant position and I find that unacceptable and an encouragement to violence and all in the name of God - see 9:38 which is all about war.
aadil77
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what 'parenthetical comments' are you talking about? I highlighted the important parts in bold
regarding your question about the quran, I don't know much about arabic so can't answer - but if you read Pickthall's foreward at the start of the translation - I think he answers your question
aadil77
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but its easy to get away with sin, right?: no consequences of sin = freedom to sin - to the average non religious person
Well you tell us what sura 9 is all about then and as you may know this sura is supposed to be a continuation of "The Spoils", sura 8 which begins with the 'spoils' belonging to God and Mohammed. So let's hear what it all means then because whatever it is its not a message of peace and selflessness is it?
i guess we could all become pacifists even if it is only for us to understand what pacifism is.
even in this state of mind one cannot understand what happens before and after one has left the company we were in. allah swt knows best and the quran has said that if you are two then he is a third and if you are three then he is a forth.
if we are told to slay then understand there losses will be comparable to ours and it is most definatly and eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. better for others to make those decisions and for allah swt to make judgement....and we do trust in allah swt's judgement.
if we are intent on making war then that is our decision if we are intent on fighting oppression and tyranny then there is always a way to do so without transgressing bounds, and if you are slayn then that is not in your control. but heaven awaits for those that did not transgress bounds, hopefully.
even in this state of mind one cannot understand what happens before and after one has left the company we were in. allah swt knows best and the quran has said that if you are two then he is a third and if you are three then he is a forth.
if we are told to slay then understand there losses will be comparable to ours and it is most definatly and eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. better for others to make those decisions and for allah swt to make judgement....and we do trust in allah swt's judgement.
if we are intent on making war then that is our decision if we are intent on fighting oppression and tyranny then there is always a way to do so without transgressing bounds, and if you are slayn then that is not in your control. but heaven awaits for those that did not transgress bounds, hopefully.
this is a well researched and refuted point i dont think it necessary to explain anything here. u can use google.
but it is interesting how you happily ignore aadil77's link to the bible thread. deliberatley ignoring something is a powerful compensation mechanism when you simply cannot reconcile something isnt it?
What you are missing is motivation. To the Christian it is NOT that the laws say this or that is a sin and we must not break the law but rather our love and devotion to God is such that to commit sin is to abuse his love for us and that is something we strive not ever to do. I don't cheat on my wife because its bad to do that, I don't cheat because I love her and cannot bare to think how much her love for me would be abused, hurt and humiliated by such an act.
yeah i guess if you are really about love then every time you make someone cry you have failed.
I have written else where on the link given but if you want to raise one of those points again do so. But here I am asking what is your view on these Qu'ran verses, where do you stand on violent jihad, I cannot google that can I?
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And all your doing is arguing with me! I am not "Inventing" anything, i am trying to prove a point, that a prophet can never be a sinner hence the Quraan mentions all those. Im not deciding what god can do or what he cannot, im saying what he mentions about the Prophets, Since he is all seeying and All knowing he knows very well what happened at the times of these prophets, thats what he mentions in the Quraan so that we may realise the truth of what really happened. The Proof is that the Quraan comes with many proofs.
A perfect message exists as in Gods word has evidence to back it up, and yes the Quraan does correct its just you who has a problem with that! Yes that statement is dangerous because your saying God is imperfect! To know the perfect message, since your on the topic of the Quraan, i suggest you read the Quraan first! Also a message is perfect, when the teachings are perfect, the one who sent the message is perfect etc. Also if you follow the correct teachings of the message then its also classed as "perfect". As a muslim i follow the teachings of Prophet Muhammad (saw) meaning the way of all the prophets (PBUT), you as a christian,do you follow every teaching of Jesus (pbuh)?
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aadil77
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go read and find out for yourself http://quran.com/9, I'm not gonna summarise a whole a chapter of the quran in one post
yh islam is definately not all about this fake eutopia of 'peace and selflessness' that christians like to misrepresent about their own religion, if you're a pacifist (coward) then islam is not for you, we do believe in the right to our own sovereignty - if you don't like reading Quranic verses regarding that then stop reading
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aadil77
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yh well that 'love and devotion' doesn't seem to work does it? at this point in time christians are THE most sinful people on earth - seems to me an abuse of god's love and mercy
like I said: no concept of punishment = freedom to sin
In islam we have a balance of this love of god stuff, its balanced with FEAR of god, we have both which is why generally muslims are nowhere near are indulgent in sin and evil as our fellow christians are
sorry to derail but me and the mrs just had a conversation as muslims about the different sects and how we are split into so many different sects and schools of thought and it occured to us that if we were to walk backwards where would we ultimately end up?
the only criterion for judgement is the quran as it is written.
we could debate on the sunnah but as the posts earlier in the thread were not fully expanded upon ie the phrophets and there ways, were they sin free etc etc
anyway i guess its time to call it a night
the only criterion for judgement is the quran as it is written.
we could debate on the sunnah but as the posts earlier in the thread were not fully expanded upon ie the phrophets and there ways, were they sin free etc etc
anyway i guess its time to call it a night
мυѕℓιмαн 4 ℓιfє;1369322 said:
How can you prove such a point and where in the Qu'ran or Bible does it say that a prophet can never be be sinner?
I have read the Qu'ran many times though not in Arabic. Its not just me that has a problem there are 2 billions Christians and I don't know how many atheists would laugh at both of us. The point I suppose is that because YOU believe it is a perfect message does not make it so does it?
I don't quite know how one would define a perfect message and if we could it would only be our definition so I don't see much of a way forward there and no doubt we would define it in a way that suited out own preconceptions. For example, the Qu'ran says a man can have 4 wives and sexual relations with his slave girls in Q4:3 - well for the life of me I cannot see why that is a perfect message - can you explain it? Or why in Q33:37 we have this teaching about marriage to ones adopted sons ex wife - why is this perfect?
To me these 'oddities' seem proof of other than divine authorship, do they not look like that to you or perhaps you have other 'proofs'
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You didnt answer my Qs, and all i said is that a prophet is meant to be an example and perfect at that, and no not everyone can be as perfect as a prophet! Insha`Allaah if you could answer those Qs maybe i could understand your view more on this. . . .
peace
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Hugo
Given that you have asked this question before and before you were answered, it makes me wonder how many times you have in fact read the Quran as you allege?!
We all know where you get your knowledge of the Quran, given your previous mishap of a direct misquote, misnumbered verse from one of your orientalist website.. why do you pose as a scholar when you are a clean impostor?
'Two billion christians?' lol I love your optimism.. take a look at the stats before stating your grievances!
as for the rest.. pls. do us all a favor and just take a hike if you are unwilling or unable to reflect over what has been, repeatedly answered, and repeatedly denied by your person!
a man worshiping fool is really in no position to question other scriptures, especially when again you have been repeatedly told, that there is no such thing as adoption in Islam, there is however sponsorship...
to the mods.
Has this fellow not broken one too many forum rules up to an including posing questions which he himself has already posed and been answered?
Given that you have asked this question before and before you were answered, it makes me wonder how many times you have in fact read the Quran as you allege?!
We all know where you get your knowledge of the Quran, given your previous mishap of a direct misquote, misnumbered verse from one of your orientalist website.. why do you pose as a scholar when you are a clean impostor?
'Two billion christians?' lol I love your optimism.. take a look at the stats before stating your grievances!
as for the rest.. pls. do us all a favor and just take a hike if you are unwilling or unable to reflect over what has been, repeatedly answered, and repeatedly denied by your person!
a man worshiping fool is really in no position to question other scriptures, especially when again you have been repeatedly told, that there is no such thing as adoption in Islam, there is however sponsorship...
to the mods.
Has this fellow not broken one too many forum rules up to an including posing questions which he himself has already posed and been answered?
fine il bite again but this is the last time,
it says dont cheat on your wives as you pointed out in your post.
it also says that those that your right hands possess are lawful unto you.
the "right" and "lawful" are the only points of contention here as i do not know the arabic meanings.
anyway you can interpret it in another way more suitable for the argument.
it says dont cheat on your wives as you pointed out in your post.
it also says that those that your right hands possess are lawful unto you.
the "right" and "lawful" are the only points of contention here as i do not know the arabic meanings.
anyway you can interpret it in another way more suitable for the argument.
Here every Christian would agree with you and it is our daily lament that we continually fall short of what God's love demands. Indeed this is a lament of every Bible characters and Job summarised how we will feel when we come into God's Holy presence - we will have NOTHING to say Job 42:6 (NIV) "Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes." We then are like Job only too aware of the weight of our sins and our total unworthiness, so if there is fear, its a fear that by out sin we abuse his compassion and the worst of this is what you describe for Muslims - self-righteousness.
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according to Grace seeker, job is fable from the bible.. how much of your bible is fable and how much is true? can you tell the difference? what is your criteria when you worship a self-immolating mangod from whom you expect salvation yet he was unable to salvage his own self, was ineffectual to carry out his message or choosing proper apostles who wouldn't turn him in so he abrogated it through a charlatan.. I mean do you actually have criteria or just spew utter fabled nonsense while making up crap about other people's religions?
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