Islam has copied (say the Christians and the Jews)

[Ramadhan]

So, what are you saying? Are you saying that Jesus isn't God? You are right. I agree with you.

Hiroshi is a jehovah witness.
He does not believe jesus is god, but he believes jesus as the first and most special creation.

 

[Ramadhan]

And they hardly would cause Christianity to divide into different religions.

That is your personal view because you are a methodist.

I'm sure most other christians like catholics think you are a heretic.

Even Hiroshi here think you are heretic

 

[Hiroshi]

This contradicts your previous statement.

If we completely cease to exist (both body and soul), then how come we go to hell/hades after we die?

The "soul" is the person. When the person dies he becomes a dead soul. The Bible often refers to a dead body as a dead soul. The wording of Acts 2:27 "you will not leave my soul in hell" refers to a dead body (soul) in the grave (hell).

 

[Amat Allah]

Yes Abraham is already in hell. Even Jesus went to hell when he died. Acts 2:27 KJV says (speaking of Jesus): "thou wilt not leave my soul in hell" and Acts 2:31 KJV says: "his soul was not left in hell". Jesus went to hell (as we all will) but he was not left there. The dead come out of hell in the resurrection. Revelation 20:13 KJV says: "death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them". Hell means "the grave" in all of these scriptures. We all go to our grave..

The "soul" is the person. When the person dies he becomes a dead soul. The Bible often refers to a dead body as a dead soul. The wording of Acts 2:27 "you will not leave my soul in hell" refers to a dead body (soul) in the grave (hell).

this is so confusing ...Sub`haan Allah...hell means grave and soul means body...I am sorry but I can`t find logic in this ...just can`t with all my respect...

and would you please explain for me, why to call the grave (hell)? does anything happen in grave makes it as hell or what?

Was Abraham a believer? Yes he was, of course.

What was Abraham's calling? What do you want me to say? He was a prophet. He was called "Jehovah's friend". He had unshakeable faith. And he was the father of great nations thanks to a miracle of God, giving him a son in his old age

yes, but tell me what was his message please...Thank you my brother for your patience and kindness...

 

[Hugo]

The four original copies of the Quran dating back to Uthmanic times are in existence today? did you read the book that you have been so apt at misquoting? Why should we be suspicious of a very meticulous system that took the witness of two hafith with every verse and a back up check to written parchment.. if you have different copies, or see a rift in the Quran itself then bring it on!

Interesting so where are these four (some authorities say 3) copies kept?

 

[Hugo]

The same you cannot prove or disprove your bible i suspect. Clearly what you mentioned is a lie and you seem to have no knowledge of the Quraan and Islaam at all, i suggest you quit acting like a "scholar" of Islaam! First you interpret Quranic verses yourself and now this? Im sure you`ve read how the Quran was revealed right? Instead of talking about how it fell out of the sky and trying to make sarcastic claims as such. And can you please post this hadeeth of Zaid collecting verses on the witness of the two people, thanks

Absolutely, one cannot prove that the Bible is the word of God and by the same token you cannot do it for the Qu'ran either so I am not lying simply stating what is obvious that it is a matter of faith not proof. No amount of interpreting verses will make it true as you seem to be suggesting that because the Qu'ran says it is from God it must be true. It cannot be the word of God because of how it was revealed - it might be a true explanation but there is no way to be sure. For you Zaid questions see Ibn Dawud, Al-Masahif, p6 see also Ibn Hajar, Fathul Bari, ix:14

 

[Hugo]

How can you prove that "Uthamn burned all the evidence"? Every copy of the Quran is the same in arabic that I have seen Be it from Cairo, Beirut, UK, USA etc - I havent seen another Quran in arabic.

Well no one can prove that he burned all the copies though it would not have been all that difficult as there were not one supposes 1,000 of them at that time though with 60 scribes according to Dr Azami copying every word the prophet spoke I might be wrong. But will you accept that a bonfire was made and indeed Dr Azami asserts this on page 161 of his book and since there are virtually no manuscript evidence from that period there is every reason to trust his view.

2 bibles catholics believe the inspired word of God has 73 books - whilst the other group 66 books. 2 very different bibles indeed. the so called canon itself is still debated and what is actually meant to go into it - we're not talking about apocryphal here - we're talking the accpeted books by one group and rejected by the other. The books that make the bible or inspred word of God in christian eyes - disputed in the 16th century. Nice try in changing the subject though - there are two bibles even in christian eyes.

Unlike with Islam no one is forced to accept a particular cannon but the fact remains that the whole of Christendom does accept the usual 66 books and with just one or two exceptions had done so since the 2nd century.

 

[Hugo]

Uthman (Ra) burned the copies for a reason the reason which i highly doubt you are aware off, ohhh leme guess you discovered that from some anti islamic site init? I suggest you do some serious RESEARCH!

Yes of course he did it for a reason and the reason was that those Qu'rans differed from each other and that he wanted to make sure than ONLY his version was recited. Yes we all agree there is one God but have you read John 10:30

The Quran means the recitation, and the Quraan is the book thats been recited and memorised by millions around this EARTH!, Ok another way to prove the Quraan is the truth are the many miracles in the book and also if you was to throw every Bible and every Quraan in the ocean, the word of the Qurans can never be forgotten as many have memorised, and since Allaah says in the Quraan that he will protect his word, which word seems to be protected more, the bible or the Quran?

What if anything does this demonstrate or prove - because something is memorised does not mean it is from God or true does it?

You must realise that you can believe whatever you may, but the Quraan proves itself, I ask you sincerely, which word is guarded? If God loves you will he not guard his message? When i say loves you i mean guiding you to do whats right and stay away from that which is harmful to you, so do you really think his message will be destructible? Allaah has guided his message, your Lord and my Lord!

How does the Qu'ran prove itself and why if God's word is so precious he did not guard the earlier scriptures as you allege - is God no powerful enough for that?

 

[Insaanah]

And I don't feel that a quote from the Qur'an (a quote that differs with the Biblical record) invalidates my beliefs.

The point I made there was an answer to DavidK565's post.

What I feel is that it shows that the Qur'an is not the perfect book that you take it to be.

I am guessing (but I could be wrong) that by this you mean that the Qur'an is wrong because the quote I used mentions people taking Mary (peace be upon her) as a god, and she is not part of the trinity. That being the case, please note, nowhere does this verse say it is talking about the trinity. Catholics pray to, and via, Mary (peace be upon her), so what Allah has said in those verses is completely true.

Peace.

 

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Absolutely, one cannot prove that the Bible is the word of God and by the same token you cannot do it for the Qu'ran either so I am not lying simply stating what is obvious that it is a matter of faith not proof. No amount of interpreting verses will make it true as you seem to be suggesting that because the Qu'ran says it is from God it must be true. It cannot be the word of God because of how it was revealed - it might be a true explanation but there is no way to be sure. For you Zaid questions see Ibn Dawud, Al-Masahif, p6 see also Ibn Hajar, Fathul Bari, ix:14

The Quraan proves itself to be true many times, its those who are too ignorant to deny many of the proofs and come up with their own conclusions!

No the proofs in the Quran prove that they are true, actually i am one of those who did my research, i am a muslim because i see the Quran as the truth and i see the teachings of Islaam to make sense and have an answer for everything, i am not of those who believe because her family or ancesters may have been muslim but because i have come up with my own conclusion that the Quran is the truth! This statement you made and i quote you: "It cannot be the word of God because of how it was revealed", well the Quran was revealed through the Prophet Muhammad (saw) and i am sure that you are aware he did not know how to read nor write, yet he managed to reveal the message perfectly, he would recite the words that would be revealed to him via the Angel Gibrael and recite them to his companions where they would write the verse down on whatever they could find e.g.rocks, animal skin etc. This proves that the Quran is not Mans word!

Actually can you post those verses, as i do not own any of the books you mentioned.

 

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Yes of course he did it for a reason and the reason was that those Qu'rans differed from each other and that he wanted to make sure than ONLY his version was recited. Yes we all agree there is one God but have you read John 10:30

At the time of the Prophet Muhammad (May the peace and blessings of God Allmighty be upon him) the Quran, the Quraan was documented and saved within the family and companions of the prophet (pbuh), it was protected and preserved from mans corruption! Uthman (ra) he did NOT decide about what number order the chapters or verses were to be in as i said the Quran was already documented and memorised by the Prophet Pbuh and his companions. Chapters and verses were recited by our Beloved Prophet Muhammad (saw) five times a day in the muslim daily prayers. The memorization of the entire Noble Quran is something sacred in Islam.Memorising the Quran helped the Noble Quran remain error-free from man's false documentation. Also realise that Allaah Allmighty your lord and my lord says in his Noble Book :

"We [Allah] have, without doubt, sent down the Message [The Noble Quran]; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption).
However, when the death of the Prophet (May the peace and blessings of God be upon him) took place, Islaam had only still remained in the 2 cities which are known as Makkah and Madinah, and Islaam had increased amongst the people in the region, also keep in mind that not all people in the entire of region had the same dialect but also had different languages. At the time many languages were spoken ofcourse including arabic along with its 7 dialects. Becuase all the languages were different to each other, you would need a translator to translate most of the conversation. And because Islaam had spread through out the enitre region, the Quraan was documented to different parts of the region but also within the different dialects and the different languages that were spoken. Note that the original Quran was in the Quraishi dialect because Uthman (RA) was the caliph Islaam was pretty much in good hands, he wanted the Quraan to be taught in the Quraishi dialect only, with one recitation and one dialect. If you were to recite the Quran in a different dialect rather than the original dialect which was the Quraishi, then you would end up with different words in spellings also in different meaning than the original.

When Uthman (RA) got hold of all the Quraans, he found that they were all in different dialects and in some cases were change to sound like the other dialect rather than the original, so therefore he uthman (ra) ordered for all those copies to be burnt as they did not have the same arabic that was revealed to the Prophet (saw), also because the words were different because of the dialect difference. He then got all the chapters together that were revealed to the Prophet (pbuh) that were already written during the time of the prophet (pbuh) in the city of Madinah and formed the one and true copy of the Noble Quran.

So how i mentioned early that the Quraan was already documented and memorised during the time of the Prophet Peace be upon him and that Uthman (ra) did NOT determine the number of the ayaahs or surahs, the verses that were recited in the 5 daily prayers of the Muslim.

So in conclusion the Quraan wasnt Changed nor Burned but only the ones that had been spread due to the different dialect and languages during the time, as those parts had been burned and the original copy that remained was with Uthman (ra) had not, when he realised that people started to interpret the real meanings of the Quran because of their dialect and in some cases to sound like other dialects, those were the ones burned because they were NOT the original.

So since the day the Quraan was revealed and till today, the same Quranic dialect that was used at the time of the Prophet (May the peace and blessings of God be upon him) was used and is STILL used today. That same dialect is taught today, if you go to any muslim family, you can gather all the recitations of the Quraan and you will see they are all the same!

What if anything does this demonstrate or prove - because something is memorised does not mean it is from God or true does it?

Actually it does prove one thing, that the Quran hasnt been changed, and never will, and did you completely ignore my example?

Throw your Bibles, and all the Quraans, and then please show me which word is guarded?, Because if you throw the bibles(and i mean every single book existing today), and then tomorrow if someone wants to know about christianity, you will have no proof, but if you throw the Quraan, there are people who have memorised God Allmighties word, and they can teach their faith.

How does the Qu'ran prove itself and why if God's word is so precious he did not guard the earlier scriptures as you allege - is God no powerful enough for that?

Actually if you read the Quraan you will realise that the Quraan speaks of those who write the book with their own hand and say its from God/ a revelation from God. Allaah says he will guard the message and not the books. What i mean by that is if you look back at the teachings of Abraham, Moses etc you will see how their teachings are similar to the teachings of Islaam, but not the one Man wrote with their own hands, the problem is today we dont know where are the real teachings of Abraham, Moses from the REAL scriptures, although you will find them in the Quraan!. That is the Islamic view, and not your view!


Peace

 

[M.I.A.]

At the time of the Prophet Muhammad (May the peace and blessings of God Allmighty be upon him) the Quran, the Quraan was documented and saved within the family and companions of the prophet (pbuh), it was protected and preserved from mans corruption! Uthman (ra) he did NOT decide about what number order the chapters or verses were to be in as i said the Quran was already documented and memorised by the Prophet Pbuh and his companions. Chapters and verses were recited by our Beloved Prophet Muhammad (saw) five times a day in the muslim daily prayers. The memorization of the entire Noble Quran is something sacred in Islam.Memorising the Quran helped the Noble Quran remain error-free from man's false documentation. Also realise that Allaah Allmighty your lord and my lord says in his Noble Book :

"We [Allah] have, without doubt, sent down the Message [The Noble Quran]; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption).
However, when the death of the Prophet (May the peace and blessings of God be upon him) took place, Islaam had only still remained in the 2 cities which are known as Makkah and Madinah, and Islaam had increased amongst the people in the region, also keep in mind that not all people in the entire of region had the same dialect but also had different languages. At the time many languages were spoken ofcourse including arabic along with its 7 dialects. Becuase all the languages were different to each other, you would need a translator to translate most of the conversation. And because Islaam had spread through out the enitre region, the Quraan was documented to different parts of the region but also within the different dialects and the different languages that were spoken. Note that the original Quran was in the Quraishi dialect because Uthman (RA) was the caliph Islaam was pretty much in good hands, he wanted the Quraan to be taught in the Quraishi dialect only, with one recitation and one dialect. If you were to recite the Quran in a different dialect rather than the original dialect which was the Quraishi, then you would end up with different words in spellings also in different meaning than the original.

When Uthman (RA) got hold of all the Quraans, he found that they were all in different dialects and in some cases were change to sound like the other dialect rather than the original, so therefore he uthman (ra) ordered for all those copies to be burnt as they did not have the same arabic that was revealed to the Prophet (saw), also because the words were different because of the dialect difference. He then got all the chapters together that were revealed to the Prophet (pbuh) that were already written during the time of the prophet (pbuh) in the city of Madinah and formed the one and true copy of the Noble Quran.

So how i mentioned early that the Quraan was already documented and memorised during the time of the Prophet Peace be upon him and that Uthman (ra) did NOT determine the number of the ayaahs or surahs, the verses that were recited in the 5 daily prayers of the Muslim.

So in conclusion the Quraan wasnt Changed nor Burned but only the ones that had been spread due to the different dialect and languages during the time, as those parts had been burned and the original copy that remained was with Uthman (ra) had not, when he realised that people started to interpret the real meanings of the Quran because of their dialect and in some cases to sound like other dialects, those were the ones burned because they were NOT the original.

So since the day the Quraan was revealed and till today, the same Quranic dialect that was used at the time of the Prophet (May the peace and blessings of God be upon him) was used and is STILL used today. That same dialect is taught today, if you go to any muslim family, you can gather all the recitations of the Quraan and you will see they are all the same!




Actually it does prove one thing, that the Quran hasnt been changed, and never will, and did you completely ignore my example?

Throw your Bibles, and all the Quraans, and then please show me which word is guarded?, Because if you throw the bibles(and i mean every single book existing today), and then tomorrow if someone wants to know about christianity, you will have no proof, but if you throw the Quraan, there are people who have memorised God Allmighties word, and they can teach their faith.



Actually if you read the Quraan you will realise that the Quraan speaks of those who write the book with their own hand and say its from God/ a revelation from God. Allaah says he will guard the message and not the books. What i mean by that is if you look back at the teachings of Abraham, Moses etc you will see how their teachings are similar to the teachings of Islaam, but not the one Man wrote with their own hands, the problem is today we dont know where are the real teachings of Abraham, Moses from the REAL scriptures, although you will find them in the Quraan!. That is the Islamic view, and not your view!


Peace

would you draw any comparison to the different english translations we have today?

 

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Aslaamu`Alaaykum

I would say it would be similar to saying that the real version is the arabic Quran you read and the english is "translation", the english is only the translation along with the french, german etc, that is why when when we pray he we pray in Arabic and not in english, another reason to why we are supposed to learn arabic and you will see how reverts must learn arabic. we are mostly adviced to learn arabic.

As you can say it is similar in the english again

Let me compare

If you look at the translation of Yusuf Ali and Muhsin Khan in Surah al Mulk ayaah number 16 and 17 you will notice that in Yusuf Ali`s version, it is translated Allaah being in the heaven and Muhsin Khan`s translates to Allaah being over the heaven. So we must be careful which version we choose to follow, as i feel Muhsin Khaans version is much more reliable rather than Yusuf Ali`s, so therefore it would be recommended one learns arabic in this matter to gain the real knowledge. There are many more problems you may find with the translation with Yusuf Ali`s translation, i dont remember them at the moment. Also Muhsin Khans version involves more commentary.

Yusuf Ali translation

Do ye feel secure that He Who is in heaven will not cause you to be swallowed up by the earth when it shakes (as in an earthquake)? Ayah 16

Or do ye feel secure that He Who is in Heaven will not send against you a violent tornado (with showers of stones), so that ye shall know how (terrible) was My warning? Ayah 17

Muhsin Khan translation

Do you feel secure that He, Who is over the heaven (Allah), will not cause the earth to sink with you, then behold it shakes (as in an earthquake)? Ayah 16

Or do you feel secure that He, Who is over the heaven (Allah), will not send against you a violent whirlwind? Then you shall know how (terrible) has been My Warning? Ayah 17

So as i mentioned it is adviced to learn arabic

If i have said anything wrong or out of context, please forgive me and correct me InshaAllaah


And Allaah knows best


Wa alaaykum Salaam

 

[aadil77]

Yes Abraham is already in hell. Even Jesus went to hell when he died. Acts 2:27 KJV says (speaking of Jesus): "thou wilt not leave my soul in hell" and Acts 2:31 KJV says: "his soul was not left in hell". Jesus went to hell (as we all will) but he was not left there. The dead come out of hell in the resurrection. Revelation 20:13 KJV says: "death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them". Hell means "the grave" in all of these scriptures. We all go to our grave.

Was Abraham a believer? Yes he was, of course.

What was Abraham's calling? What do you want me to say? He was a prophet. He was called "Jehovah's friend". He had unshakeable faith. And he was the father of great nations thanks to a miracle of God, giving him a son in his old age.

God almighty, why deny the existance of hell? Won't do you any good in the next life

Your grave will never be hell no matter how much you want it to be

 

[M.I.A.]

Aslaamu`Alaaykum

I would say it would be similar to saying that the real version is the arabic Quran you read and the english is "translation", the english is only the translation along with the french, german etc, that is why when when we pray he we pray in Arabic and not in english, another reason to why we are supposed to learn arabic and you will see how reverts must learn arabic. we are mostly adviced to learn arabic.

As you can say it is similar in the english again

Let me compare

If you look at the translation of Yusuf Ali and Muhsin Khan in Surah al Mulk ayaah number 16 and 17 you will notice that in Yusuf Ali`s version, it is translated Allaah being in the heaven and Muhsin Khan`s translates to Allaah being over the heaven. So we must be careful which version we choose to follow, as i feel Muhsin Khaans version is much more reliable rather than Yusuf Ali`s, so therefore it would be recommended one learns arabic in this matter to gain the real knowledge. There are many more problems you may find with the translation with Yusuf Ali`s translation, i dont remember them at the moment. Also Muhsin Khans version involves more commentary.

Yusuf Ali translation

Do ye feel secure that He Who is in heaven will not cause you to be swallowed up by the earth when it shakes (as in an earthquake)? Ayah 16

Or do ye feel secure that He Who is in Heaven will not send against you a violent tornado (with showers of stones), so that ye shall know how (terrible) was My warning? Ayah 17

Muhsin Khan translation

Do you feel secure that He, Who is over the heaven (Allah), will not cause the earth to sink with you, then behold it shakes (as in an earthquake)? Ayah 16

Or do you feel secure that He, Who is over the heaven (Allah), will not send against you a violent whirlwind? Then you shall know how (terrible) has been My Warning? Ayah 17

So as i mentioned it is adviced to learn arabic

If i have said anything wrong or out of context, please forgive me and correct me InshaAllaah


And Allaah knows best


Wa alaaykum Salaam

as long as the rest of the ayahs are the same between translations the highlighted differences would not make much difference.
also i am only familiar with the yusaf ali translation.

i learned arabic for a few semesters at uni.. it was very hard and my teacher thought me hopeless... and i was lol.

 

[ChargerCarl]

God almighty, why deny the existance of hell? Won't do you any good in the next life

Your grave will never be hell no matter how much you want it to be

Don't you have to prove that hell exists before it can be denied?

 

[alcurad]

Yes of course he did it for a reason and the reason was that those Qu'rans differed from each other and that he wanted to make sure than ONLY his version was recited. Yes we all agree there is one God but have you read John 10:30

those copies were badly written, remember that the Arabs had an oral culture and thus were overwhelmingly illiterate, so much so that after the battle of Badr the ransom for some of the Quraish prisoners was paid by them teaching children to read and write instead of paying a relatively large amount of gold or coin etc.

the point again; those copies were mostly badly written, i.e. grammar was not followed, with commentary of the author sometimes mixed directly with the Koranic text itself, or some words would be replaced by others in cases where the dialect of the author was significantly different from that of the text etc, for this reason the copies were destroyed and the correct version/s which was already in place was used checked and verified many times then used as a template for all written Korans therefore. and this happened with the approval of the majority of the companions of the prophet,men-and even women-who had sacrificed life and treasure so that the verses could be recited freely would not be so quick to suppress them come what may.

 

[جوري]

Don't you have to prove that hell exists before it can be denied?

If you are stuck at the crossroads of whether God exists or not, then this is clearly the wrong thread for you.. once you have traversed that milestone, pls. join this topic, otherwise start a new thread or rummage through the billions that already exist on the topic!

all the best

 

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Don't you have to prove that hell exists before it can be denied?

You are a christian right? Do you believe in the Judgement day?

 

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

as long as the rest of the ayahs are the same between translations the highlighted differences would not make much difference.
also i am only familiar with the yusaf ali translation.

i learned arabic for a few semesters at uni.. it was very hard and my teacher thought me hopeless... and i was lol.

There are few other examples, i just cant seem to remember them

The difference it makes is that One version speaks of Allaah being above the heaven and one mentioned Allaah in the heaven.

But i hope someone can give you answer in more detail, i was trying to show how some words can be interpreted to mean something else, so learning Arabic is better and as it has the real meanings in arabic.

Sorry if i have said anything wrong

peace