Muslims, what do you think of Catholicism?

[gmcbroom]

Hiroshi, your right of course it does.
However, James 5.16, then theres 1 Timothy 2 (1-5), Ephesians 6.18, Romans 8 (38-39), and Luke 20.38 would seem to imply otherwise. Either way it all comes down to faith. You say we can't. I say we can.
Peace be with you.
gmcbroom

 

[Hiroshi]

Also, when the OT is speaking on God not being a man, that's past tense. Meaning he wasn't. YET.

Well, the OT definitely speaks about Jesus being a man. At Psalms 8:4 The Revised English Bible reads: "what is a frail mortal, that you should be mindful of him, a human being, that you should take notice of him?" These words are explained as applying to Jesus in Hebrews 2:6.

The Hebrew word for "frail mortal" used there is "enosh" and this word does indeed mean: "mortal man" i.e. man subject to death (Isaiah 51:12).

Here is the problem. God does not die because he is immortal. (I can quote scriptures to prove that but I am sure that we are all agreed on this and that I don't have to). Jesus, however was not immortal. He could become a mortal man and be subject to death. But immortal God could not become mortal man.

Quoting The Revised English Bible again, it says this in Romans 6:9: "Christ, once raised from the dead, is never to die again: he is no longer under the dominion of death."

So Christ does have immortality now (1 Timothy 6:16; Hebrews 7:16) as a reward from God for his faithful obedience (Philippians 2:8-9; Hebrews 5:8) but he didn't ever have it before his resurrection.

So Jesus and God are different. God has always been immortal. But Jesus was not immortal until after his death and resurrection. Otherwise he could not have provided the ransom sacrifice.

 

[Hiroshi]

Hiroshi, your right of course it does.
However, James 5.16, then theres 1 Timothy 2 (1-5), Ephesians 6.18, Romans 8 (38-39), and Luke 20.38 would seem to imply otherwise. Either way it all comes down to faith. You say we can't. I say we can.
Peace be with you.
gmcbroom

Well, Luke 20:38 refers to the resurrection of the dead as you can see if you read from verses 27-37. The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection and had a clever argument to try to disprove it. But in this passage Jesus was able to show that they were wrong.

When though, does the resurrection take place? It doesn't happen immediately after a person dies. John 11:24 shows that the general resurrection of the dead of mankind would take place "on the last day". It is a future event. It takes place at Christ's second coming (1 Corinthians 15:22-23). And the dead are able to do nothing until they are resurrected (Ecclesiastes 9:10). So why try to communicate with them?

 

[gmcbroom]

Now in one of the passages I mentioned above it's stated that those alive in Christ should pray for each other. It made no distinction between physically alive or dead. So asking saints to pray for you isn't forbidden. As it's approved in scripture through that passage. Does it mention saints specifically no. However it does mention all those alive in Christ.So in the end it's a matter of faith.

As for The Nature of Jesus. For Catholics and Orthodox and many others, he is both True God and True man. Jesus is the Word made flesh. Hence he existed since the beginning but only dwelt among us when the time was right. Anything less would be a heresy. That's why we're to test spirits. If they say Jesus wasn't born of the flesh then it's a false prophet and sent from the Evil one. Jesus also said by their fruits you will know them.

Peace by with you.
gmcbroom

 

[MustafaMc]

Why do you say this was a critical point for them as if it was something bad?

It was critical in that the rest of Galatians illustrates the conflict that Paul had with Jesus' disciples who adhered to the Judaic Law. With the destruction of Jerusalem came also the shift in 'power' from these disciples over to Paul and the new gentile religion we know as Christianity replaced the 'enlightened Judaic' one practiced by Jesus' followers.

 

[MustafaMc]

Perhaps you could ask a Jew and find out their thoughts on this.

Well, you are most welcome to read from this site illustrating the cofusion between an angel and God. http://www.mishpacha.org/wrestling.shtml
[FONT=georgia,Times New Roman, serif]Among the understandings of the name Israel are: [/FONT]

[FONT=georgia,Times New Roman, serif] [/FONT][FONT=georgia,Times New Roman, serif]One who wrestles with God. [/FONT]
[FONT=georgia,Times New Roman, serif] [/FONT][FONT=georgia,Times New Roman, serif]One who is straight (direct, honest) with God. [/FONT]
​

[FONT=georgia,Times New Roman, serif]This quality of confrontation and engagement with God, as opposed to pure submission, remains a distinguishing characteristic of Judaism. [/FONT][FONT=georgia,Times New Roman, serif]This quality of confrontation and engagement with God, as opposed to pure submission, remains a distinguishing characteristic of Judaism. [/FONT]

 

[gmcbroom]

I'd go further and say ask a rabbi. I went to the site it's very interesting.
Peace be with you.
gmcbroom

 

[MustafaMc]

I'd go further and say ask a rabbi. I went to the site it's very interesting.
Peace be with you.
gmcbroom

That is a good suggestion, perhaps I will try to contact one here in Mississippi.

If there can be confusion between an angel and God such as this and what you said about the angels visiting Abraham, then isn't there a possibility of a similar confusion in the Divinity/Humanity of a man (son of a woman) who walked on water, calmed the seas, healed the sick, raised the dead, and fed the multitudes?

 

[gmcbroom]

I have another question you can ask the rabbi. If it's not too much trouble.

Ask him if burying the dead is a valid excuse for being unable to attend synagogue worship?

This isn't a trick question. The reason i'm curious what the rabbi would say is because Jesus was confronted with this situation by one of his followers. His response was,"Let the dead bury the dead, follow me."

For some it is hard to believe that Jesus walked on water, calmed the seas, healed the sick, raised the dead, and fed the multitudes. However, for me that is no longer the case. I absolutely believe he did.
Peace be with you.
gmcbroom

 

[MustafaMc]

Ask him if burying the dead is a valid excuse for being unable to attend synagogue worship?

God willing, I will contact a synagogue to try to make contact with a rabbi to ask about who Jacob wrestled and about burying the dead.

For some it is hard to believe that Jesus walked on water, calmed the seas, healed the sick, raised the dead, and fed the multitudes. However, for me that is no longer the case. I absolutely believe he did.

I don't deny the miracles of Jesus, but neither do I accept all that is written in the gospels as actually having occurred. With that said, I don't doubt that Jesus (as) was capable of performing the stated miracles through the help of God. The similitude is as the miracles of Moses with turning a staff in to a snake, or parting of the sea. Moses himself did not do this, but God did through the agency of His prophets, Moses and Jesus. A pertinent verse is John 5:30 where Jesus is quoted as saying, "I can do nothing on My own initiative As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me."

 

[gmcbroom]

MustafaMc,
Your so close to the truth, for your answer is in John Chapter 14:9.
Peace be with you.
gmcbroom

 

[MustafaMc]

The point was that Jesus does only God's will as he also acknowledged in the Garden of Gethsemane. This demonstrates subordination of Jesus to God.

 

[Hiroshi]

It was critical in that the rest of Galatians illustrates the conflict that Paul had with Jesus' disciples who adhered to the Judaic Law. With the destruction of Jerusalem came also the shift in 'power' from these disciples over to Paul and the new gentile religion we know as Christianity replaced the 'enlightened Judaic' one practiced by Jesus' followers.

Does Islam try to follow all of the Law of Moses?

Jerusalem's destruction was foretold in Daniel and explained with added details by Jesus. After the city's destruction genealogical records were destroyed and following that, no Jew could trace his line to the priestly tribe. Without priests and animal sacrifices the Law forcibly came to an end. But surely this development was allowed by God?

 

[جوري]

Does Islam try to follow all of the Law of Moses?

That is an expansive discussion for the most part the basics haven't changed.. the point which you're missing is that Jesus came to:

Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."
and his job was to reinforce the Jewish law not twist it into Greek Mythology.
You'll indeed find that Judaism is closer to Islam than Christianity, but Jesus was sent to the Jews. prophet Mohamed PBUH was sent to mankind!

all the best

 

[Hiroshi]

That is an expansive discussion for the most part the basics haven't changed.. the point which you're missing is that Jesus came to:

Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."
and his job was to reinforce the Jewish law not twist it into Greek Mythology.
You'll indeed find that Judaism is closer to Islam than Christianity, but Jesus was sent to the Jews. prophet Mohamed PBUH was sent to mankind!

all the best

Luke 16:16 "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it."

And in Matthew 5:17 Jesus says: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

Jesus completely satisfied every requirement of the Law by fulfilling it when he provided the ransom sacrifice. The Law promised everlasting life to those who could keep it but condemned and cursed those who could not. Jesus was the only one without sin (as the Qur'an agrees, right?) So he was the only one who could perfectly keep the Law. All others were condemned and cursed. But by the manner of his death, Jesus removed the curse and brought the Law to an end by fulfilling it completely.

 

[جوري]

Luke 16:16 "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it."

That is what we call a pious forgery, and if it weren't a forgery then such a shame that your bible would be so filled with contradictions!

And in Matthew 5:17 Jesus says: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

Jesus completely satisfied every requirement of the Law by fulfilling it when he provided the ransom sacrifice. The Law promised everlasting life to those who could keep it but condemned and cursed those who could not. Jesus was the only one without sin (as the Qur'an agrees, right?) So he was the only one who could perfectly keep the Law. All others were condemned and cursed. But by the manner of his death, Jesus removed the curse and brought the Law to an end by fulfilling it completely.

How was the law fulfilled? Surely there is more to it than your mere assertion? You don't keep with any of the OT laws.
You don't keep the sabbath
no Male circumcision
you eat pigs
laws on apostasy and divorce etc etc.

all the best

 

[gmcbroom]

The Vale's Lily,
So you don't believe in the Holy Spirit do you? I would hope that you did as that is how the Old and the New Testament came into being. But it was written by men may be your response. I'd say exactly, men inspired by the Holy Spirit. As to the contradictions with in it. Those weren't contradictions they were likely prophecies pointing to the messiah. Now, just because Jesus didn't meet some jews expectations (a conquering king) doesn't mean he wasn't the messiah. He simply presented himself in a humble way and called the faithful to him through his preaching and miracles. Those that have ears should hear. As for those OT laws we no longer follow them because those are the Laws of Moses. When Jesus came he established a better way to reach the Father. Why you ask. Simple the Old Testament Laws were like a check list accomplish those things within it and you were saved. But, they could be cold and dispassionate ie little love. Apparently, God prefers Love. So he sent his Son to fufill the Law and institute something both simple yet extremely difficult. Simple because the whole of the Law can be condensed down to 2 (keep in mind the OT Laws actually numbered over 600) This is what the Gospel of Matthew says: “Jesus said, ‘You must love the Lord our God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and first commandment. The second resembles it: You must love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang the whole Law, and the Prophets also.’”
Sounds simple yet it's not. First Law of Loving God as instituded by Jesus, is easier than the second. Afterall, not many can easily turn the other check after being offended by someone yet we must if we are to follow the New Law.
Peace be with you.
gmcbroom

 

[جوري]

The Vale's Lily,
So you don't believe in the Holy Spirit do you? I would hope that you did as that is how the Old and the New Testament came into being. But it was written by men may be your response. I'd say exactly, men inspired by the Holy Spirit. As to the contradictions with in it. Those weren't contradictions they were likely prophecies pointing to the messiah. Now, just because Jesus didn't meet some jews expectations (a conquering king) doesn't mean he wasn't the messiah. He simply presented himself in a humble way and called the faithful to him through his preaching and miracles. Those that have ears should hear. As for those OT laws we no longer follow them because those are the Laws of Moses. When Jesus came he established a better way to reach the Father. Why you ask. Simple the Old Testament Laws were like a check list accomplish those things within it and you were saved. But, they could be cold and dispassionate ie little love. Apparently, God prefers Love. So he sent his Son to fufill the Law and institute something both simple yet extremely difficult. Simple because the whole of the Law can be condensed down to 2 (keep in mind the OT Laws actually numbered over 600) This is what the Gospel of Matthew says: “Jesus said, ‘You must love the Lord our God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and first commandment. The second resembles it: You must love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang the whole Law, and the Prophets also.’”
Sounds simple yet it's not. First Law of Loving God as instituded by Jesus, is easier than the second. Afterall, not many can easily turn the other check after being offended by someone yet we must if we are to follow the New Law.
Peace be with you.
gmcbroom

I don't know what your definition of the 'holy spirit' is and have to assume him the third god of the three headed god you worship.. however in Islam the 'holy spirit' is the arch angel Gabriel!
A contradiction means a statement that is necessarily false with another. It is a logic thing and you can't convince someone that something is the unadulterated word of God when there is a contradiction here and a contradiction there!
I also never said that Jesus wasn't the Messiah, simply that your rendition of Messiah is obviously different than that which is even mentioned in the bible
see here:

[FONT=Century Gothic, Arial, Helvetica]CHRIST NOT A NAME

The word CHRIST is derived from the Hebrew word Messiah, Arabic-Masih. Root word m-a-s-a-h-a, meaning to rub, to massage, to anoint. Priests and kings were anointed when being consecrated to their offices. But in its translated, Grecian form "CHRIST", it seems unique:befitting Jesus only. The Christian has a knack of transmuting baser metals into shining gold. What he is wont to do is to translate names into his own language like "cephas" to Peter, "messiah" to Christ. How does he do that? Very easily MESSIAH in Hebrew means anointed. The Greek word for anointed is "christos". Just lop off the 'os' from christos and you are left with christ. Now change the little 'c' to a capital 'C', and "hey, presto!" he has created a unique (?) name! Christos means ANOINTED, and anointed means APPOINTED in its religious connotation. Jesus (pbuh) was appointed (anointed) at his baptism by John the Baptist, as God's Messenger.Every Prophet of God is so anointed or appointed. The Holy Bible is replete with the "anointed" ones. In the original Hebrew - made a "messiah". Let us keep to the English translation - "anointed." Not only were prophets and priests and kings anointed (christos-ed), but borns, and cherubs and lamp-posts also.
[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]

I am the God of Beth-el, where you ANOINTED a pillar.....
​

[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]Genesis 31:13[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]

If the priest that is ANOINTED do sin....
​

[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]Leviticus 4:3[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]

And Moses....ANOINTED the tabernacle and all things that was therein...
​

[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]Leviticus 8:10[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]

...THE LORD SHALL....EXALT THE HORN OF HIS ANOINTED
​

[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]1 Samuel 2:10[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]

Thus saith the Lord to his ANOINTED to Cyrus....
​

[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]Isaiah 45:1[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]

Thou art the ANOINTED cherub....
​

[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]Ezekiel 28:14[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica] There are a hundred more such references in the Holy Bible. Everytime you come across the word ANOINTED in your English Bible, you can take it that that word would be christos in the Greek translations, and if you take the same liberty with the word that the Christians have done, you will have - Christ Cherub, Christ Cyrus, Christ Priest and Christ Pillar, etc.
[FONT=Century Gothic, Arial, Helvetica]SOME TITLES EXCLUSIVE[/FONT]

Although, every prophet of God is an ANOINTED one of God - a Messiah, the title "Masih" or "Messiah" or its translation "CHRIST" is exclusively reserved for Jesus, the son of Mary, in both Islam and in Christianity. This is not unusual in religion. There are certain other honorific title which may be applied to more than one prophet, yet being made exclusive to one by usage: like "Rasul-lullah", meaning Messenger of God, which title is applied to both Moses (19:51) and Jesus (61:6) in the Holy Quran. Yet "Rasul-lullah" has become synonymous only with the Prophet of Islam among Muslims.
Every prophet is indeed a FRIEND OF GOD, but its Arabic equivalent "Kha- lil-lullah" is exclusively associated with Father Abraham. This does not mean that the others are not God's friends. "Kalimul-lah" (One who spoke with God) is never used for anyone other than Moses, yet we believe that God spoke with all His Messengers, including Jesus and Muhummed (May the Peace and Blessings of God be upon all His servants). Associating certain titles with certain personages only, does not make them exclusive or unique in any way. We honour all in varying terms.
Whilst the good news was being announded (verse 45 above) Mary was told that her unborn child will be called Jesus, that he would be the Christ, a "Word" from God, and that.....

"HE SHALL SPEAK TO THE PEOPLE IN CHILDHOOD* AND IN MATURITY. AND HE SHALL BE (OF THE COMPANY) OF THE RIGHTEOUS."
​

Holy Quran 3:46
* This prophecy found fulfilment within a very short time. We find this in Sura Maryam below:

"AT LENGTH SHE BROUGHT HIM (THE BABE) TO HER PEOPLE, CARRYING HIM (IN HER ARMS). THEY SAID:"O MARY! TRULY AN-AMAZING THING HAST THOU BROUGHT! O SISTER OF AARON THY FATHER WAS NOT A MAN OF EVIL NOR THY MOTHER A WOMAN UNCHASTE!"
​

Holy Quran 19:27-28
[FONT=Century Gothic, Arial, Helvetica]JEWS AMAZED[/FONT]

There is no Joseph the carpenter here. The circumstances being peculiar, Mary the mother of Jesus had retired herself to some remote place in the East (H.Q.19:16). After the birth of the child she returns.

"The amazement of the people knew no bounds. In any case they were prepared to think the worst of her, as she had disappeared from her kin for some time. But now she comes, shamelessly parading a babe in her arms! How she had disgraced the house of Aaron, the fountain of priesthood! "SISTER OF AARON: Mary is reminded of her high lineage and the unexceptionable morals of her father and mother. How, they said, she had fallen and disgraced the name of her progenitors!
"What could Mary do? How could she explain? Would they, in their censorious mood accept her explanation? All she could do was to point to the child, who, she knew, was no ordinary child. And the child came to her rescue. By a miracle he spoke, defended his mother, and preached -to an unbelieving audience."
​

A.Yusuf Ali, comments in his notes 2480-2482 on page 773 of his translation.

"BUT SHE POINTED TO THE BABE. THEY SAID: 'HOW CAN WE TALK TO ONE WHO IS A CHILD IN THE CRADLE?'"
​

HOLY QURAN 19:23

And by a miracle he spoke: HE SAID: "I AM INDEED A SERVANT OF GOD: HE HATH GIVEN ME REVELATION AND MADE ME A PROPHET; "AND HE HATH MADE ME BLESSED WHERESOEVER I BE, AND HE HATH ENJOINED ON ME PRAYER AND CHARITY AS LONG AS I LIVE "(HE) HATH MADE ME KIND TO MY MOTHER, AND NOT OVERBEARING OR MISERABLE; "SO PEACE IS ON ME THE DAY I WAS BORN, THE DAY THAT I DIE, AND THE DAY THAT I SHALL BE RAISED UP TO LIFE (AGAIN)!"
​

Holy Quran 19:24-33
[/FONT]

http://islam101.net/islamic-history...-christ-in-islam-by-ahmed-deedat.html?start=3

Now you're losing me at a better way to reach the father, isn't Jesus the father? why didn't he think of this before? Why all of a sudden he wants to leave the universe behind, have a period of oblivion in infancy where he suckles poops and voila one day he is god although he never actually states that he is, he prays to himself, he chooses ineffectual apostles one of them the 'Rock' forsook him three times, these look to you like the sort of people who can shoulder a message of God? further to throw the masses into confusion he abrogates his commandments through a charlatan who was his enemy while he was alive? Does that make sense? If it does to you more power to you, but you can see where most of us would see this as absurd!
That whole 'Love' shenanigan is cute, but it doesn't hold water, it is meaningless words, If love were the name of the game then said God would simply do away with hell? and punishment and become a little forgiving toward those who don't buy into the self-immolating fiasco if they lived righteous lives over those who bang their way through life yet are bought forgiveness simply for uttering such meaningless words!

all the best[/FONT]

 

[gmcbroom]

The Vale's Lily, Clearly my arguments haven't convinced you since your a Unitarian and I'm a Trinitarian. I'm saddened by this but it's not unexpected. Afterall, I'm a Catholic guest on a Muslim forum. I consider it a priviledge to be here. I know my faith is strange to you. I'm here out of curiousity and to answer any questions about the catholic faith if I can. Thus I like to go to the comparative religions section of this forum. You'll not likely find me in other sections unless it's by accident or a topic piques my curiousity.
Peace be with you
gmcbroom

 

[جوري]

The Vale's Lily, Clearly my arguments haven't convinced you since your a Unitarian and I'm a Trinitarian. I'm saddened by this but it's not unexpected. Afterall, I'm a Catholic guest on a Muslim forum. I consider it a priviledge to be here. I know my faith is strange to you. I'm here out of curiousity and to answer any questions about the catholic faith if I can. Thus I like to go to the comparative religions section of this forum. You'll not likely find me in other sections unless it's by accident or a topic piques my curiousity. Peace be with you gmcbroom

Broom you haven't made arguments, you've made assertions that aren't supported by text nor logic.. it has nothing to do with your guest status or my lack of knowledge of Christianity. I did attend a catholic school for a number of years.. it wasn't convincing to me as a student and it isn't as a reflecting adult..

all the best