Muslims, what do you think of Catholicism?

[gmcbroom]

The Vale's Lily,
My mistake. I actually had to go read what the definition of argument and assertions were before I could understand you. So what you need is some sort of scriptural evidence or proof to back up my claim. I think I see the barrier between us. Tell me what what New Testament Biblical references will you accept as valid?
Peace be with you
gmcbroom

 

[MustafaMc]

Does Islam try to follow all of the Law of Moses?

I don't consider that Islam is following the 'Law of Moses'; however' as The Vale's Lily said, Islam is much more similar to Judaism than it is to Christianity.

Jerusalem's destruction was foretold in Daniel and explained with added details by Jesus. After the city's destruction genealogical records were destroyed and following that, no Jew could trace his line to the priestly tribe. Without priests and animal sacrifices the Law forcibly came to an end. But surely this development was allowed by God?

Yes, that is true, but I was talking about the shift in leadership of the 'Christian' movement from Jerusalem and Jesus' disciples to Rome and Paul with the destruction of Jerusalem.

 

[MustafaMc]

But by the manner of his death, Jesus removed the curse and brought the Law to an end by fulfilling it completely.

That is why I am almost reluctant to call Christianity a religion at all. There are no guidelines for how to live one's life or how to worship God. It's so easy, just believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins and you're issued a 'Get out of Hell Free' card.

 

[MustafaMc]

You don't keep with any of the OT laws.
You don't keep the sabbath
no Male circumcision
you eat pigs
laws on apostasy and divorce etc etc.

all the best

You hit upon my point exactly. Neither do they have prescribed prayer, fasting or charity.

 

[Hiroshi]

That is why I am almost reluctant to call Christianity a religion at all. There are no guidelines for how to live one's life or how to worship God. It's so easy, just believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins and you're issued a 'Get out of Hell Free' card.

There are many requirements to live as a Christian. Fornication, dishonesty, idolatry, and all manner of evils are forbidden in the NT. And a careful study of the Bible is needed to understand how we are to worship God acceptably and to live as God wants us to live. Living as a Christian also sometimes brings hardships, opposition and persecution. Jesus said that it would be a struggle (Matthew 7:14; Luke 13:24). Love of God and love of one's fellow man are paramount.

 

[Hiroshi]

That is what we call a pious forgery, and if it weren't a forgery then such a shame that your bible would be so filled with contradictions!


How was the law fulfilled? Surely there is more to it than your mere assertion? You don't keep with any of the OT laws.
You don't keep the sabbath
no Male circumcision
you eat pigs
laws on apostasy and divorce etc etc.

all the best

Leviticus 18:5 says: "Keep my decrees and laws, for the person who obeys them will live by them. I am the LORD." This states that a person who obeys the whole Mosaic Law would get life. However, Deuteronomy 27:26 says also: "Cursed is anyone who does not uphold the words of this law by carrying them out."

No one was able to keep the Law perfectly so instead of getting life they came under God's curse. But the manner of Jesus' death removed that curse (Deuteronomy 21:23).

The Qur'an says that Abraham's son was ransomed with a great sacrifice (Surah 37:107). It also says: "Life for life" (Surah 5:45). Why is it hard for Muslims to accept the idea of the ransom sacrifice?

 

[جوري]

Leviticus 18:5 says: "Keep my decrees and laws, for the person who obeys them will live by them. I am the LORD." This states that a person who obeys the whole Mosaic Law would get life. However, Deuteronomy 27:26 says also: "Cursed is anyone who does not uphold the words of this law by carrying them out." No one was able to keep the Law perfectly so instead of getting life they came under God's curse. But the manner of Jesus' death removed that curse (Deuteronomy 21:23). The Qur'an says that Abraham's son was ransomed with a great sacrifice (Surah 37:107). It also says: "Life for life" (Surah 5:45). Why is it hard for Muslims to accept the idea of the ransom sacrifice?

That was a test of faith and devotion to God not a 'ransom' It is so bizarre the way you speak of God, like he is some blood thirsty harvest god that you need to appease with virgins and blood to survive.. What a grievous thing you utter.. at least keep it as far as your beliefs are concerned, that isn't the Islamic belief on the test of Abraham!

all the best

 

[MustafaMc]

There are many requirements to live as a Christian. Fornication, dishonesty, idolatry, and all manner of evils are forbidden in the NT.

What happens when a Christian does one of those things? Does he go to a priest addressing him "Father (priest) forgive me for I have sinned", confess his sin, and receive direction for what to do in penance?

And a careful study of the Bible is needed to understand how we are to worship God acceptably and to live as God wants us to live. Living as a Christian also sometimes brings hardships, opposition and persecution. Jesus said that it would be a struggle (Matthew 7:14; Luke 13:24). Love of God and love of one's fellow man are paramount.

I agree that love of God and fellow human beings is a very good thing and without it we may be prone toward self-righteousness with performance of our religious duties.

What religious duties do you and gmcbroom follow and to whom do they trace back to?

 

[MustafaMc]

That was a test of faith and devotion to God not a 'ransom' It is so bizarre the way you speak of God, like he is some blood thirsty harvest god that you need to appease with virgins and blood to survive.. What a grievous thing you utter.. at least keep it as far as your beliefs are concerned, that isn't the Islamic belief on the test of Abraham!

Yes, Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his ONLY son (Ishmael) was not as an act of penance to wash away some sin, but, as you said, it was a test of faith in God. I am a father and I love my son. I imagine that Abraham loved his son even more than I do mine because he went so many years of his life without one. God had made a promise to Abraham and having a son was important for its fulfillment. Is not Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son a model for us to follow in being willing to sacrifice what we love most in obedience to God?

I just returned from pilgrimage a few months ago and part of the ritual was stoning of the pillars as being symbolic of Abraham's struggle with Satan who tempted him to disobey God. Another ritual was sacrificing a sheep commemorating Abraham's sacrifice. In Islam, we have no concept of a 'blood atonement' sacrifice for sin, rather we repent to God and plead for His forgiveness - most often we do that in prostration during prayer.

 

[gmcbroom]

MustafaMC,
If your Catholic part of your religious duties is to attend Divine Liturgy once a week on either Saturday or Sunday, and you must attend the days of Obligation (Personally, I don't really call a day of obligation a religious duty because that almost imply's your forced to do it when in fact it's a great celebration for Christians we are honoring Our Lord by participating at each DL or DoO.).

I can't speak for anyone else but I attend Divine Liturgy(Mass) at least twice a week. If I'm sick I'll go at least once, unless I'm to ill or contagious to move. I also pray usually between 3 to 5 times a day you know the routine: morning, at meal times, and in the evening. Sometimes, i'll read Sacred Scripture and pray at an Adoration Chapel as well as pray the Rosary. As for to whom do they trace back too. The Last Supper was instituded by Jesus my Lord. All the others were begun by various Catholic Leaders of the Church over the span of the Church.
Peace be with you
gmcbroom

 

[MustafaMc]

All the others were begun by various Catholic Leaders of the Church over the span of the Church.

I assume that your religious rituals are meant as worship of God. On what basis have these rituals been shown to have been ordained by God and therefore are acceptable to Him as forms of worship.

In Islam, our rituals were established directly through Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and all new acts of worship instigated after him are considered as heretical innovations of bidah in Arabic. For example, I believe that I pray very closely to how Muslims prayed behind Muhammad (saaws) as indicated by very few differences among Muslims the world over in how we pray even 1400 years later.

 

[Hiroshi]

That was a test of faith and devotion to God not a 'ransom' It is so bizarre the way you speak of God, like he is some blood thirsty harvest god that you need to appease with virgins and blood to survive.. What a grievous thing you utter.. at least keep it as far as your beliefs are concerned, that isn't the Islamic belief on the test of Abraham!

all the best

God is a God of justice and the penalty for sin is death. We all die. No one continues living. That is a fact. But a man without sin could die in our place and pay for our sins. This could be seen illustrated in Surah 2:71-72 where there is a crime by an unknown murderer an animal is sacrificed in order to remove the bloodguilt in accordance with the Law of Moses (Deuteronomy 21:1-9).

 

[Hiroshi]

MustafaMc,
Your so close to the truth, for your answer is in John Chapter 14:9.
Peace be with you.
gmcbroom

In John 14:9 Jesus says: "He that has seen me has seen the Father."

But Jesus is not claiming here to be God the Father. Indeed, the Trinity doctrine emphatically states that Jesus is the Son but not the Father. Rather Jesus means here that he reflects his Father's qualities and personality.

 

[MustafaMc]

God is a God of justice and the penalty for sin is death. We all die. No one continues living. That is a fact. But a man without sin could die in our place and pay for our sins.

However, even you will die and reap 'the penalty of sin'; therefore, your perfect sacrifice did not protect you from that death. What verse in the Bible can you quote that shows that this death is a spiritual death and not a physical one?

This could be seen illustrated in Surah 2:71-72 where there is a crime by an unknown murderer an animal is sacrificed in order to remove the bloodguilt in accordance with the Law of Moses (Deuteronomy 21:1-9).

No where in Surah Al-Baqarah is the purpose for this sacrifice stated or even insinuated. We know that the people of Moses had made an idol in the shape of a cow and perhaps (my speculation) it could have been that these people were worshiping this very cow. We know that it was an act of obedience as opposed to a blood atonement for sin. (See post #143 for clarification)

 

[جوري]

God is a God of justice and the penalty for sin is death. We all die. No one continues living. That is a fact. But a man without sin could die in our place and pay for our sins. This could be seen illustrated in Surah 2:71-72 where there is a crime by an unknown murderer an animal is sacrificed in order to remove the bloodguilt in accordance with the Law of Moses (Deuteronomy 21:1-9).

see what br. Mustafa wrote and quit with your own renditions to Quranic verses!

 

[MustafaMc]

see what br. Mustafa wrote and quit with your own renditions to Quranic verses!

You had brought out a similar point regarding Abraham's sacrifice as a test of faith and devotion to God as opposed to a ransom or atonement for some sin he had committed. I suppose that a Christian reading the Quran would tend to interpret it according to his own beliefs rather that what is drawn logically from the text. We have no concept of a blood sacrifice for atonement; however, we often will offer extra prayers, fasting, charity or other good deeds to offset some sin or bad deed that we have done. Please, correct me if I am wrong.

 

[MustafaMc]

How can God have a Father (who Jesus prayed to), a Son (Jesus) and a Mother (Mary mother of Jesus) and yet remain one entity?

Does it not make more sense that God is simply 'the Father' and just leave it at that?

 

[Hiroshi]

How can God have a Father (who Jesus prayed to), a Son (Jesus) and a Mother (Mary mother of Jesus) and yet remain one entity?

Does it not make more sense that God is simply 'the Father' and just leave it at that?

Yes. Although Mary isn't considered part of the Trinity of course.

 

[Hiroshi]

No where in Surah Al-Baqarah is the purpose for this sacrifice stated or even insinuated. We know that the people of Moses had made an idol in the shape of a cow and perhaps (my speculation) it could have been that these people were worshiping this very cow. We know that it was an act of obedience as opposed to a blood atonement for sin.

Surah 2:72 explains that here is a case of an unsolved murder. And Deuteronomy 21:1-9 shows what was needed to be done in such circumstances with an animal sacrifice. It is all explained there.

However, even you will die and reap 'the penalty of sin'; therefore, your perfect sacrifice did not protect you from that death. What verse in the Bible can you quote that shows that this death is a spiritual death and not a physical one?

Ezekiel 18:4 "The soul that sins shall die." Romans 6:23 "The wages of sin is death." Romans 5:12 "through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men bacause they had all sinned".

Yes, I expect to die but I can hope for the resurrection from the dead which I believe is God's arrangement through Jesus.

 

[Ramadhan]

Yes. Although Mary isn't considered part of the Trinity of course.

the operative word in your sentence is "isn't" which indicates current tense.