Is the Holy Spirit the angel Gabriel?

[Fivesolas]

In the thread on whether the Comforter (paraclete) is Mohammed, the discussion turned to the question as to whether the Holy Spirit is the angel Gabriel. The Christian in answering this question will turn to the Scriptures. I would expect the Muslim to do the same. What does the Qur'an say with regard to the Holy Spirit?

What evidence is given from the Qur'an that would suggest that the Holy Spirit is Gabriel? (if that is your belief).

I have only found 4 references so far to the Holy Spirit in the Qur'an using the Pickthal translation. They are Surah 2:87, 2:253, 5:110, 16:102. Yusuf Ali and Shakir give the same result.

I found the word Spirit in Pickthal's translation 23 times in 21 verses which include the above four mentioned. I won't list them all here.

One question that came up is the Qur'an mentions the Holy Spirit, but also refers to the Spirit of Allah or "My [Allah] Spirit (see S. 12:87, 38:72). What is the difference, if any, between the Holy Spirit and the Qur'an reference to the Spirit of Allah, or when Allah is referencing His Spirit?

In Surah 97:4, 78:38, and 70:4 there is a mention of angels and "the Spirit" ascending, standing arrayed, or decending. This seems to imply a disctinction. What is the meaning?

 

[Sol Invictus]

as far as the christian understanding is concerned, gabriel is not the holy spirit:

Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right side of the altar of incense. 12 When Zechariah saw him, he was startled and was gripped with fear. 13 But the angel said to him: “Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to call him John. 14 He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, 15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born. [...] 18 Zechariah asked the angel, “How can I be sure of this? I am an old man and my wife is well along in years." 19 The angel said to him, “I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to tell you this good news. --- Luke 1:11-15; 18-19 NIV

notice that the angel distinguishes himself from the holy spirit. if gabriel were indeed the holy spirit then he would have said, "he will be filled with me even before he is born". he could have even said that he himself was the holy spirit if this were the case. yet that is not all, gabriel is again mentioned later on:

26 In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.” [...] 35The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. 36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. 37 For no word from God will ever fail.” --- Luke 1:26-28; 35-37 NIV

once again gabriel is distinguished from the holy spirit in the bible. christ's birth is produced by the holy spirit and notice how this miracle is tied to the power of god. so the implication here at least is that the holy spirit possesses the power of god and it is not the father by whom christ is born but rather the holy spirit.

all in all, i think that the bible is pretty clear that gabriel is not the holy spirit (would any christian thinking the contrary feel comfortable with praying to gabriel?).

 

[Woodrow]

To say anything about the meanings of those Ayyats actually require the Tafsir of a qualified Scholar. All most of us here are capable of doing is a very limited opinion based upon our own thoughts.

Based upon at least one definition of spirit (per Merriam-Webster: : a supernatural being or essence) an Angel is a spirit. Since the Angels are all acting on behalf of Allaah(swt) their act are Holy and therefore so are they. Jibril seems to have been the Angel always used to bring messages to mankind. so Jibril would be THE HOLY SPIRIT, with the most contact with us.

Let us look at Surah 94

surah 97:1-5 Al-Qadr (The Night of Power)
1. We have indeed revealed this (Message) in the Night of Power:
2. And what will explain to thee what the night of power is?
3. The Night of Power is better than a thousand months.
4. Therein come down the angels and the Spirit by Allah's permission, on every errand:
5. Peace!...This until the rise of morn!

What is translated as spirit?

Just what does the word alrroohu mean?

I notice it seems to come from the same root as Roo (or Ruh) which is usually reference to the human soul or human. Perhaps in the Surah the term spirit fit the Merriam-Webster definition of spirit as meaning: a : a special attitude or frame of mind

The Qadr does fill a person with a very special sense of purpose that comes from Allaah(swt)

 

[SalamChristian]

So, you're saying that because the Bible doesn't SPECIFICALLY spell out to you that Gabriel is the Holy Spirit, you are going to reject it entirely and call it impossible? :~)

Well, let every man be proven wrong and God be proven true!

christ's birth is produced by the holy spirit and notice how this miracle is tied to the power of god. so the implication here at least is that the holy spirit possesses the power of god

The Book of Jude in the New Testament quotes the Book of Enoch, and early church father Tertullian included the Book of Enoch as scripture as well. This is from Enoch 1, 40:8-9

8After this I besought the angel of peace, who proceeded with me, to explain all that was concealed. I said to him, Who are those whom I have seen on the four sides, and who words I have heard and written down? He replied, The first is the merciful, the patient, the holy Michael. 9The second is he who presides over every suffering and every affliction of the sons of men, the holy Raphael. The third, who presides over all that is powerful, is Gabriel. And the fourth, who presides over repentance, and the hope of those who will inherit eternal life, is Phanuel. These are the four angels of the most high God, and their four voices, which at that time I heard.

This answers your criticism about the powerfulness of the Holy Spirit with a resounding "Gabriel fits your requirements!"

Another really interesting section comes from Enoch II. Enoch II is, of course, less supported by MSS. Many slavic editions exist. However, in 2009 coptic fragments were found of this later part of Enoch which date to perhaps 500 AD, most likely 900 AD. Check out this quote!

"And the Lord summoned me, and said to me: Enoch, sit down on my left with Gabriel." Enoch II, 24:1 So Gabriel sits at the Left hand of the Father, and Jesus sits at the right? Sounds like a trinity to me! Certainly it gives Gabriel plenty of importance to be considered the "paraclete" of John's Gospel.

the bible identifies the holy spirit as the comforter It also identifies him as Advocate, specifically in the legal sense. One who convicts the world of their sin. I am reading that Jewish exegetes argued millenia ago that "Of those three, it was Gabriel who destroyed Sodom in a rain of fire (Gen. R. 50:2; B.M. 86b)."

This is from the Yalkut Shimoni (Jewish exegesis), which is only in Hebrew online. I suppose we would have to get a hard-copy in English to find out what their particular exegetical interpretation was. But, seeing as this was written by Hebrew-speaking Jews centuries ago, I must concede that they might see linguistic nuances that we don't :~)

Oh, and as for the comforter part, the Jewish exegetes have something to say on that, too:

He can also function as a guardian angel; he nursed the infant Abraham through his finger, protected Israel in Egypt, and aided the infant Moses (Yalkut Exodus; Sot. 12b). Hmm, and aren't we told that it was the Holy Spirit in Exodus, too?

Lastly, we must seriously take into account what we are told in Revelations. Revelations is given to John from "the Angel from Christ," who is also identified as "The Spirit." Many translations capitalize "The Spirit" here, and it is not simply a spirit, but THE SPIRIT. In Revelations we are clearly told that The Holy Spirit is also an Angel. It can apparently take on both an Angelic and a Spirit form--pneuma (wind, breath) & angelos. What other Angel makes sense than Gabriel?

In closing, I would remind everyone that the textual evidence in favor of the Holy Spirit being an Angel is almost absolute. The text also provides the most evidence that this Angel is Gabriel, as opposed to some other angel. Given these two observations, we should say that it is more likely than not that the Holy Spirit is indeed the Angel Gabriel.

Peace my brothers, May the Truth come.

 

[SalamChristian]

Also, in regards to the Qu'ran, I found some commentary and posted it on the thread which this one derived from. Here is the commentary:

Gabriel reveals the Qu'ran to Muhammad (pbuh). I am reading some Muslim websites which argue very adamantly that the Holy Spirit and Gabriel are one and the same in the Qu'ran. The names for Gabriel in Arabic are: "'Ruhhil-Qudus' (Holy Spirit), 'Ruuhanaa' (Our Spirit), 'Ruuhul-'Amiin' (The Honest Spirit) and 'Al-Ruh' (The Spirit)"

Peace brothers

 

[SalamChristian]

Lastly, for those of us who are willing to take BOTH the New Testament and the Qu'ran seriously, there are further arguments to be made. One of the promises of Jesus (pbuh) regarding what will happen after him is that he will send "the paraclete," a Legal Advocate and Comforter to the believers. This is also identified as The Holy Spirit and The Spirit of Truth.

As pointed out above, Gabriel is called 'Ruhhil-Qudus' (Holy Spirit), 'Ruuhanaa' (Our Spirit), and Ruuhul-'Amiin' (The Honest/True Spirit). The last one is particularly interesting, because it states that Gabriel is indeed the promised "Spirit of Truth" that Jesus (pbuh) was going to send after him. Lastly, the Qu'ran repeatedly calls itself the Clear Book, the Book of Clear Guidance et cetera, and numerous ayahs affirm that it is to be a "comfort" to the believers. The function of the Qu'ran is indeed to provide the Ummah with legal guidance, and to clearly determine what is right and wrong behavior. The Holy Spirit promised by Jesus (pbuh) is also prophesied to convict the world of sin--to judge the world, so that only believers will be judged righteous by it.

Peace brothers

 

[siam]

just to clarify a point---which may be minor to the issue under discussion but very important to the general understanding of the concept......

Ruh (God's breath/Spirit) and Ruh Al-Qudus (Holy Spirit) as well as other uses of the word ruh (spirit) are not God. They are a creation of God for a purpose. (Only God is Uncreated). (IMO) perhaps a good way to think of this might be as "Force/Forces" for example, gravity is a force but it is not God---it is a creation (Law) of God for a purpose. Likewise the word "Angel" in Judaism and Islam mean "messenger" and the purpose of these "messengers" is to do God's will. (This is different from "Prophet" which is rasul/nabi and their purpose is to teach, and/or deliver God's message/guidance/law to others)

---this is only my opinion---but paraclete could be understood as Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) and the Holy Spirit as the recited Quran of the Prophet(pbuh) at the time of revelation. (The essence(knowledge) or truth that came through the process of Angel Gabriel/Holy spirit resides in the words of the Quran (book) we have today.....)

If a Christian were to dismiss such a claim---it would not make much difference to a Muslim---since the knowledge of the last prophet was for the benefit of the followers of the previous scriptures---and not for those who already believe in the Quran-----that is, those who follow the previous scriptures can examine if such a claim has any truth---BY EXAMINING the Quran and the life of Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) to determine if this can be considered or not......

Since the Quran is against superstition and blind belief---such passages should not be taken as "proof" of the Quran/Prophet---rather as an invitation to examine and discover the truth for oneself.....

 

[Ali Mujahidin]

As salaam mualailum.

I think, if Islam were to be allowed to be modified, and therefore degraded, like many other religions, we would end up having people worship Gibrail as a god. That is why there is a strict command from Allah that the Quran must not ever be changed even by one jot or dot. Sometimes there is so much debate over the messenger that the message and, most importantly, the Originator of the message, is forgotten in the deafening cacophony that ensues. The main point of Islam is to live it. Insha Allah.

 

[- Qatada -]

To SalamChristian, Gabriel is called 'Ruh-al-ameen' [the 'Honest' Spirit'] is because he does not lie, he does not fake revelation and pretend it is from God. Rather, he is honest and always dutiful to his Creator.

 

[Fivesolas]

I think the thread on the parakletos demonstrated that Mohammed is not, and could not, be the paraklete. Other than a desire on behalf of Muslims to find Mohammed spoken of in the New Testament, I am not sure what the motivation is to trying to insist on it. The Qur'an does not teach that Mohammed is the parakletos to my knowledge. Correct me if I am wrong there.

I do think it is important to have a clear understanding of what the Qur'an means when it refers to the Holy Spirit, the Spirit, and the Spirit of Allah. We can spend time debating the issue, but I do think we can all agree that we want to let the Qur'an speak for itself. It is, afterall, said to be clear. I would expect the same dignity to be afforded to the Bible with regard to how those Scriptures present the Holy Spirit.

Now, this statement I do want to address:

"those who follow the previous scriptures can examine if such a claim has any truth---BY EXAMINING the Quran and the life of Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) to determine if this can be considered or not......"

I might need further clarification from you on this. I am one of "those" who follow the previous Scriptures/Revelation. According to the Qur'an, I am a "people of the Book." If I take your advice here and examine the Qur'an's claims by examing the Qur'an and the life of Muhammed (someone tell me how I am supposed to spell this, with an o or a u?) how does this afford me an examination? What is my reference point?

When I have looked at the Qur'an, it tells me that its message confirms what was previously given, and that I should look into the Scriptures that are in my hands. Well, we all know there are significant, theological bombshells even, that do not agree. The Qur'an's message does not confirm what is in the Old and New Testaments. In many points, there is a agreement, and in many points clear contradictions between the two. Our common sense and basic laws of logic do not allow that two contradictory statements can both be true.

Nevertheless, my aim in this thread is to gain an accurate understanding as to the Qur'an's teaching with regard to the Holy Spirit. If this question can only be answered by a trained scholar, then are there any such persons on the board? If not, then to whom can I go and ask such a question to get an "official" answer?

 

[YieldedOne]

Why isn't anyone going to the OLD TESTAMENT here? I'm quite curious.

At Pentecost, Peter himself claims that what occurs is a FULFILLMENT of the OT promises of God to fill his People with His Spirit. He straight up says that.

Let's bring some Old Testament Prophets into this. It's the GROUND for the New Testament understanding of God's Spirit in the NT. Let me bring some of them back...

Ezekiel 36
“Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Lord God, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God."


Joel 2
“And it shall come to pass afterward,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh;
your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
your old men shall dream dreams,
and your young men shall see visions.
29 Even on the male and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit.


Then there's Peter QUOTING Joel 2 in Acts...

When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. 3 And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested [1] on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. 6 And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. 7 And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, 11 both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.” 12 And all were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “What does this mean?” 13 But others mocking said, “They are filled with new wine.”

14 But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. 15 For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:

17 “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;
18 even on my male servants and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.
19 And I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;
20 the sun shall be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood,
before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.
21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’

 

[YieldedOne]

Siam:
Ruh (God's breath/Spirit) and Ruh Al-Qudus (Holy Spirit) as well as other uses of the word ruh (spirit) are not God. They are a creation of God for a purpose. (Only God is Uncreated). (IMO) perhaps a good way to think of this might be as "Force/Forces" for example, gravity is a force but it is not God---it is a creation (Law) of God for a purpose. Likewise the word "Angel" in Judaism and Islam mean "messenger" and the purpose of these "messengers" is to do God's will. (This is different from "Prophet" which is rasul/nabi and their purpose is to teach, and/or deliver God's message/guidance/law to others)

Ok. Now this makes MORE SENSE than saying that the Holy Spirit is absolutely the SAME THING as the angel Gabriel. Heck, even many Christians think that God's Breath/Spirit is little more than God's FORCE OF ACTIVITY in Creation. But there's a problem with that being merely created we can get to later.

**************************************
Siam:
this is only my opinion---but paraclete could be understood as Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) and the Holy Spirit as the recited Quran of the Prophet(pbuh) at the time of revelation.

Let me guess. There is little to no consideration of the Old Testament Prophet texts AT ALL in general Islamic discussion about the Holy Spirit...right?

 

[Fivesolas]

So, you're saying that because the Bible doesn't SPECIFICALLY spell out to you that Gabriel is the Holy Spirit, you are going to reject it entirely and call it impossible? :~)

Well, let every man be proven wrong and God be proven true!



The Book of Jude in the New Testament quotes the Book of Enoch, and early church father Tertullian included the Book of Enoch as scripture as well. This is from Enoch 1, 40:8-9

In closing, I would remind everyone that the textual evidence in favor of the Holy Spirit being an Angel is almost absolute. The text also provides the most evidence that this Angel is Gabriel, as opposed to some other angel. Given these two observations, we should say that it is more likely than not that the Holy Spirit is indeed the Angel Gabriel.

Peace my brothers, May the Truth come.

The problem here Salam, is your building your argument/reasoning on writings rejected as Scripture. This could easily lead to a conversation regarding the canon of Scripture, which would be off-topic. Let's deal with the texts that all Christians have recieved as God-breathed. Dealing with the 27 books of the NT keeps us on topic.

What Sol has shown you from the canonical Gospels is that the textual evidence is NOT in favor with the Holy Spirit being an angel, or Gabriel in particular.

I don't think the question is whether or not an angel can be a spirit. The question is: Does the Bible present the Holy Spirit as the angel Gabriel. Sol has demonstrated from the text of Scripture that this is not the case.

 

[YieldedOne]

Forget it. I'll just throw up this skeet for it to be shot down.

My analogical take on the Trinity is as follows:

The One True God is a SPEAKER who eternally expresses himself as "I Am that I Am". That is God's self-expressive word of self-understanding. God's BREATH/SPIRIT is the power that God uses for God's UNCREATED "speech" (similar to what's believed about the UNCREATED nature of the Quran) And God's SPOKEN WORD is God's self-declaration and self-objectification of who God is: "I Am". I say that God has been doing this even before Creation began.

You cannot have a SPEAKER without BREATH and SPOKEN WORD. They are three aspects of ONE PERSON'S actions. And basically the Uncreated Speaker "breathes" his Spoken Word eternally SANS Creation. Thus the "Breath" and "Spoken Word" are uncreated as well.

I know it's an analogy...but that's as close as I can get using the OT biblical language. But what I love about it is this: If Islam says that "uncreated speech" exists (which they do), then this motif of conceptualizing the One God via triune action of uncreated self-declaration is NOT completely without framework for understanding.

All this is the say that I think that it's conceptually valid that God's "Breath/Spirit" can be uncreated...just like the Quran is said to be.

 

[SalamChristian]

Peace Fivesolas,

Dealing with the 27 books of the NT keeps us on topic. What Sol has shown you from the canonical Gospels is that the textual evidence is NOT in favor with the Holy Spirit being an angel, or Gabriel in particular.

You completely overlooked Revelations. You missed the scripture I quote and the very conclusive points I make from that Canonical book.

Lastly, we must seriously take into account what we are told in Revelations. Revelations is given to John from "the Angel from Christ," who is also identified as "The Spirit." Many translations capitalize "The Spirit" here, and it is not simply a spirit, but THE SPIRIT. In Revelations we are clearly told that The Holy Spirit is also an Angel. It can apparently take on both an Angelic and a Spirit form--pneuma (wind, breath) & angelos. What other Angel makes sense than Gabriel? In closing, I would remind everyone that the textual evidence in favor of the Holy Spirit being an Angel is almost absolute.

How do you reconcile that? On what basis can you reject the clear testimony in Revelations?

The problem here Salam, is your building your argument/reasoning on writings rejected as Scripture. This could easily lead to a conversation regarding the canon of Scripture, which would be off-topic. Let's deal with the texts that all Christians have recieved as God-breathed.

As I stated, the Book of Enoch WAS received as scripture, both by the author of the Book of Jude in the canonical Gospel and also by Tertullian, a very early church father. Also, it is still received as scripture by some Christian traditions today.

Peace

 

[YieldedOne]

Two things, Salam:

1) How come you are not referencing any OT Scriptures about the God's Spirit (incuding the Psalm where David specifically mentions the Holy Spirit)?

2) What is the Scripture in Revelation that you are talking about?

 

[YieldedOne]

Psalm 51:10-12
Create in me a clean heart, O God,
and renew a right spirit within me.
Cast me not away from your presence,
and take not your Holy Spirit from me.
Restore to me the joy of your salvation,
and uphold me with a willing spirit.

***************************
Isaiah 63:10-13
But they rebelled
and grieved his Holy Spirit;
therefore he turned to be their enemy,
and himself fought against them.
Then he remembered the days of old,
of Moses and his people.
Where is he who brought them up out of the sea
with the shepherds of his flock?
Where is he who put in the midst of them
his Holy Spirit,
who caused his glorious arm
to go at the right hand of Moses,
who divided the waters before them
to make for himself an everlasting name,
who led them through the depths?

Stephen in Acts follows up on this last one...Acts 7:51-53

“You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you. Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered, you who received the law as delivered by angels and did not keep it.”



Check the Hebrew if you want...

 

[SalamChristian]

How come you are not referencing any OT Scriptures

If the NT clearly states that the Holy Spirit is an angel, then we need to deal with it first. It is very clear on this matter, as I am reading it.

What is the Scripture in Revelation that you are talking about?

"The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must happen very soon. He made it clear by sending his angel to his servant John" Revelation 1:1

"I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day when I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet saying "Write in a book what you see" Revelations 1:10-11

And then every single message to each of the 7 churches ends with:

"The one who has an ear had better hear what The Spirit says to the churches!" Revelations 2:11, 2:17, 2:29, 3:6, 3:13, 3:22

The author of Revelations is clearly identified as both an Angel from Jesus and The Spirit, using John as its medium.

Peace brothers

 

[SalamChristian]

Moreover, you ought to think about the context of the Holy Spirit when you read Revelations, because the entire structure is built around the promises of the "paraclete":

"The revelation (unveiling, uncovering, revealing) of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants . . . He made it clear by sending his angel . . . who then testified to everything that he saw concerning the word of God and the testimony about Jesus Christ."

And then, for the next 3 chapters, the Holy Spirit and Angel from God goes on to convict the church leaders of their sin, lol. He calls them out on everything.These are all things promised about the paraclete. He is to teach them everything, to testify and speak not of his own accord but of that which is given to him, to testify about Christ, to make everything clear to the Apostles, and to judge the world (convict it of its sin).

Peace

 

[Fivesolas]

Peace Fivesolas,



You completely overlooked Revelations. You missed the scripture I quote and the very conclusive points I make from that Canonical book.



How do you reconcile that? On what basis can you reject the clear testimony in Revelations?



As I stated, the Book of Enoch WAS received as scripture, both by the author of the Book of Jude in the canonical Gospel and also by Tertullian, a very early church father. Also, it is still received as scripture by some Christian traditions today.

Peace

It is improper to jump from one text of Scripture to another as a rebuttle. You must first deal with what was given (by Sol) then move on. It is not true that I completely overlooked the book of Revelation. What I am doing is asking that you deal with the texts presented by Sol.

Your statements regarding the book of Enoch are irrelevant. Nor does it follow that if Jude quotes from the book that he regarded it as Scripture. Making these kinds of points is fruitless to the discussion and takes us down the road of canonicity. Discussing the canon is a worthy topic, but not on topic here. For our purposes, we can accept what has been received by the Church, and no more. Otherwise, any ancient text can be presented as authoritative.