Is the Holy Spirit the angel Gabriel?

[Fivesolas]

Moreover, you ought to think about the context of the Holy Spirit when you read Revelations, because the entire structure is built around the promises of the "paraclete":

"The revelation (unveiling, uncovering, revealing) of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants . . . He made it clear by sending his angel . . . who then testified to everything that he saw concerning the word of God and the testimony about Jesus Christ."

And then, for the next 3 chapters, the Holy Spirit and Angel from God goes on to convict the church leaders of their sin, lol. He calls them out on everything.These are all things promised about the paraclete. He is to teach them everything, to testify and speak not of his own accord but of that which is given to him, to testify about Christ, to make everything clear to the Apostles, and to judge the world (convict it of its sin).

Peace

Got to work for a bit now, but I am happy to spend considerable time in the book of Revelation. But first, I would like you to deal with the text Sol presented.

 

[Perseveranze]

The Qur'an does not teach that Mohammed is the parakletos to my knowledge

Peace,

Not going to answer all your questions/claims since others already have done so. But regarding this specific claim, the Quran clearly mentions that Muhammad(pbuh) is the prophesised Prophet that is written in your holy scriptures. If Paracletes is not referring to Muhammad(pbuh), then give me the verse in your Bible that is referring to the Prophesised Prophet(pbuh). Until you do this, Muslims have every single claim with great backing to say that Paracletes is the Prophecised Prophet, Muhammad(pbuh).

 

[SalamChristian]

It is improper to jump from one text of Scripture to another as a rebuttle.

The entire scripture is fair game. As fair as dealing with Sol's texts, I am doing that most quickly and effectively by referencing Revelations. Your conclusion based on Sol's quotations was entirely refuted by the scripture that I quoted. Moreover, I had made this refutation prior to your conclusion, so the least you could have done would have been to consider the verses I brought in before glossing over them. Sol's verses are not at all definitive, merely indicative. However, if Revelations establishes that the Holy Spirit is also an Angel conclusively, then your interpretation that Sol's verses prove that the "holy spirit is not an angel" would be out-and-out wrong.

Nor does it follow that if Jude quotes from the book that he regarded it as Scripture.

Tertullian believes it does:

"Chapter 3: Concerning the Genuineness of the Prophecy of Enoch
...

But since Enoch in the same Scripture has preached likewise concerning the Lord, nothing at all must be rejected by us which pertains to us; and we read that "every Scripture suitable for edification is divinely inspired

. . .

To these considerations is added the fact that Enoch possesses a testimony in the Apostle Jude."

It is going to be important to our discussion, and it certainly bears upon the topic at hand. To reject it outright would be narrow-minded. There is wisdom, however, in your point that we need to establish a mainline discussion first. If you want, we can save it until after we have gotten further in our exegesis of the OT and NT. If you would have simply responded to the passages from Revelations or tried to hermeneutically synthesize them and the texts Sol presents, then we would already be there (instead of having this long side conversation lol).

Peace

 

[SalamChristian]

But regarding this specific claim, the Quran clearly mentions that Muhammad(pbuh) is the prophesised Prophet that is written in your holy scriptures.

Out of curiosity, would you give me the ayahs you are thinking of that prophesy about either Gabriel, the Qu'ran, or Muhammad? I am aware, obviously, of the one which references the name "Ahmad."

Peace

 

[YieldedOne]

Let's go ahead and get John's Revelation out the way.

SC:
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must happen very soon. He made it clear by sending his angel to his servant John" Revelation 1:

"I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day when I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet saying "Write in a book what you see" Revelations 1:10-11
And then every single message to each of the 7 churches ends with:

"The one who has an ear had better hear what The Spirit says to the churches!" Revelations 2:11, 2:17, 2:29, 3:6, 3:13, 3:22

The author of Revelations is clearly identified as both an Angel from Jesus and The Spirit, using John as its medium.

Ok. What I hear you saying, Salam, is that the angel sent to John in 1:1 actually is completely IDENTIFIABLE with the Holy Spirit. Your argument is summarized as follows:

1) Revelation 1:1 says that God made known the revelation of Jesus Christ to John by sending an angel to John.
2) The end of all the messages to the 7 churches (Revelation 2-3) end with "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."
3)In Revelation 1:10, the text mentions John being "in the Spirit" on the Lord's day hearing a "voice like a trumpet."

Now...let's deconstruct this...

1) The "voice like a trumpet" mentioned in 1:10 is SPECIFICALLY assigned to this being...

Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands, and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest. The hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire, his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters. In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength.

When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.

Now, I don't know about you...but it seems like this being who is "like a son of man" and who proclaims that he "died" and is not "alive forevermore" CANNOT be refering to either an angel OR the HOly Spirit...but to the RISEN CHRIST. Just look at the text.

2) Whenever the "voice" speaks to the 7 churches, he keeps using "I", meaning that the voice is DIRECTLY ADDRESSING the churches. And this "I" is directly related to the being described in #1 above. In other words, this "I" is NOT any angel.

3) The NT specifically says that Jesus is present to the Church VIA HIS SPIRIT. (John 14) I believe you know those texts already, right, SC?


If all 3 things I've said above are valid, then it's at best HIGHLY UNLIKELY that your quoted texts mean that the Holy Spirit is to be identified with some created angel.

Feel me?

 

[YieldedOne]

Actually, we can make a parallel idea with Mary and here encounter with an angel seen in Luke...

In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin's name was Mary. 28 And he came to her and said, “Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!”29 But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and tried to discern what sort of greeting this might be. 30 And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.”

34 And Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I am a virgin?”

35 And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be bornwill be called holy—the Son of God. 36 And behold, your relative Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son, and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren. 37 For nothing will be impossible with God.” 38 And Mary said, “Behold, I am the servant[6] of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.

Incidentally, this "angel" is traditionally held to be Gabriel. And there is a DIFFERENTIATION MADE by the angel himself...between he and the Holy Spirit.

You are taking this into account as a Christian, too...right, Salam? :shade:

 

[YieldedOne]

All this said about Revelation...the Old Testament texts about the Holy Spirit cannot just be ignored.

Let's go back to Psalm 51. If you note, it is used liturgically by Christianity AND Judaism. This particular psalm is genuinely thought to be penned by David himself. And please recall that David is seen to be a PROPHET in Islam! So, when he talks about God's Holy Spirit in Psalm 51:11...do you really think that he was talking about the angel Gabriel, Salam? If so, by what means do you come to that conclusion?

 

[YieldedOne]

At the risk of overkill...

SC:
And then, for the next 3 chapters, the Holy Spirit and Angel from God goes on to convict the church leaders of their sin, lol. He calls them out on everything.These are all things promised about the paraclete. He is to teach them everything, to testify and speak not of his own accord but of that which is given to him, to testify about Christ, to make everything clear to the Apostles, and to judge the world (convict it of its sin).

Again, I point out that it is NOT the "angel from God" who convicts the church leaders. It is the RISEN CHRIST HIMSELF via Christ's Holy Spirit. Unless you are going to say that the angel from God "died" and is now "alive forevermore." Heh. ;D

 

[Fivesolas]

Peace,

Not going to answer all your questions/claims since others already have done so. But regarding this specific claim, the Quran clearly mentions that Muhammad(pbuh) is the prophesised Prophet that is written in your holy scriptures. If Paracletes is not referring to Muhammad(pbuh), then give me the verse in your Bible that is referring to the Prophesised Prophet(pbuh). Until you do this, Muslims have every single claim with great backing to say that Paracletes is the Prophecised Prophet, Muhammad(pbuh).

Thank you for your reply. I must have missed where a Muslim replied to my points. I will re-check. I agree with you that Qur'an teaches Muhammed is mentioned in the Old and New Testaments. What you are asking me to do is agrue from your position. This, of course, is silly. I have shown by the NT Scriptures that Muhammed could not possibly be the Comforter spoken of by the Lord Jesus Christ.

Since it is the Muslim contention that the Old and New Testaments speak of Muhammed, which came hundreds of years after the Scriptures, the burden of proof is on the Muslim. I have looked into the OT and NT Scriptures to see if what the Qur'an/Muhammed claim is true. So far I have not seen Muhammed in any prophecy of Holy Writ. I am open to any challenge to that of course, and am willing to listen and examine the Muslim claim that Muhammed is in the Scripture. I think I have demonstrated this by thoroughly examing that Muhammed is the Comforter spoken of by the Lord Jesus. And I think it is plain that it does not stand up.

 

[Sol Invictus]

As I stated, the Book of Enoch WAS received as scripture, both by the author of the Book of Jude in the canonical Gospel

i really have to question the claim that the author of jude quoted the book of enoch. for one thing the quotations aren't even the same. that said, it is more likely that an oral tradition on this existed which was passed down by the jews (though it did quite clearly stem from enoch). paul quotes the names of jannes and jambres (2 Timothy 3:8-9) which stems from jewish oral tradition but this does not mean that the entire jewish oral tradition is inspired. paul quotes from epimenides (Titus 1:12) but this does not mean that we should incoprorate his writings into the canon of scripture. evidently, jude's quote does belong to scripture but that does not mean that the book of enoch belongs to scripture---nevermind the fact that that exact quote isn't even in the book of enoch at all. now, apocryphal books aside, can you prove through scripture that the holy spirit is the angel gabriel? and if so, are you comfortable with saying that gabriel is god or to pray to gabriel? you'll note that in the luke account gabriel is relegated to the class of an angel:

Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right side of the altar of incense. 12 When Zechariah saw him, he was startled and was gripped with fear. 13 But the angel said to him: “Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to call him John. 14 He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, 15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born. [...] 18 Zechariah asked the angel, “How can I be sure of this? I am an old man and my wife is well along in years." 19 The angel said to him, “I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to tell you this good news. --- Luke 1:11-15; 18-19 NIV

notice that gabriel is merely an angel, one of many in the class of angels. he bears no singular distinction at all and never does any reference of him insinuate that he is the holy spirit. in the bible the holy spirit is called god, the father is called god, the son is called god but never is gabriel called god or said to be the holy spirit. so the question again becomes, where in the bible do we find any instance of gabriel taking for himself the prerogatives of god? where is there even a hint of deity on the part of gabriel?

to perseveranz:

Peace,

Not going to answer all your questions/claims since others already have done so. But regarding this specific claim, the Quran clearly mentions that Muhammad(pbuh) is the prophesised Prophet that is written in your holy scriptures. If Paracletes is not referring to Muhammad(pbuh), then give me the verse in your Bible that is referring to the Prophesised Prophet(pbuh). Until you do this, Muslims have every single claim with great backing to say that Paracletes is the Prophecised Prophet, Muhammad(pbuh).

there is also a thread on who the paraclete is and i'm sure that we would enjoy it if you could show from all the evidence that muhammad could at all be the individual spoken of in the gospel of john.

 

[- Qatada -]

What do the Christians say about this passage from the Gospel of John?

Up to the time of Jesus (peace be upon him), the Israelites were still awaiting for that prophet like unto Moses prophecied in Deuteronomy 18:18.


19 And this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, "Who are you?" 20 He confessed, he did not deny, but confessed, "I am not the Christ." 21 And they asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" He said, "I am not." "Are you the prophet?" And he answered, "No." (Gospel of John 1: 19-21).


​

Why would the Jews be awaiting a Prophet after the Christ? And why did John the Baptist say he is not that awaited Prophet?

 

[SalamChristian]

In other words, this "I" is NOT any angel.

The problem with this conclusion is that you are throwing out 1:1. "He communicated/signified/made-known it by sending his ANGEL to his servant John, who then testified to everything that he saw."

Unless you can explain this verse, and how it fits into the chain of communication occurring in the text, then your interpretation falls apart. Are you going to tell me that he sends an Angel, who then drops Jesus down and lets Jesus do the talking? I'm not buying that, lol.

Moreover, while the equalization you make between The Spirit and Jesus in the text is an impressive display of interpretation, it is also not absolute, and seeing as it doesn't reconcile the verse above, it has to be rejected. The revelation is communicated by the Angel, who testifies as to everything he saw concerning Jesus.

In fact, if you look at the text, you will see that Jesus is speaking within the message of another speaker, presumably the Angel. Consider the dialogue happening here:

The first voice:

"I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day when I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, saying 'Write in a book what you see and send it"

John turns, and now he is in the vision, the message that the Angel is communicating. Now he sees a completely different reality, and he is no longer in this world:

"I turned to see whose voice was speaking to me, and when I did so, I saw seven golden lampstands" These lampstands, as is later testified, are the creation of this vision and not reality.

Notice that the Angel is not simply communicating the message, he is literally re-creating the vision he received from God to be communicated to John. John now sees Jesus among the lampstands, and Jesus begins speaking. After Jesus is done, John says:

"After these things . . . And the first voice I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet said: 'Come up here so that I can show you what must happen after these things.' Immediately I was in The Spirit."

"first" here has a distinct sense of "foremost," "the one which came before."

And now, the voice who must "show John these things," The Spirit, is transmitting to him a new vision. Why does John distinguish between this voice and the voice of Jesus? There can only be one explanation: there are two speakers. This reconciles the fact that an Angel is the one who brings the message, not Jesus. Nor does he bring Jesus, and just plop him down in front of John.

Peace brother

 

[SalamChristian]

Why would the Jews be awaiting a Prophet after the Christ? And why did John the Baptist say he is not that awaited Prophet?

Peace brother Qatada

This is before Christ.

I think you are confusing John the Baptist and John the Apostle. John the Apostle was a companion of Jesus (pbuh) and he recorded his life in the Gospel of John.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Why would the Jews be awaiting a Prophet after the Christ? And why did John the Baptist say he is not that awaited Prophet?

this was already answered in the paraclete thread. you can find the refutation on page 3.

 

[YieldedOne]

Qatada:
What do the Christians say about this passage from the Gospel of John?

Up to the time of Jesus (peace be upon him), the Israelites were still awaiting for that prophet like unto Moses prophecied in Deuteronomy 18:18.
19 And this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, "Who are you?" 20 He confessed, he did not deny, but confessed, "I am not the Christ." 21 And they asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" He said, "I am not." "Are you the prophet?" And he answered, "No." (Gospel of John 1: 19-21).
Why would the Jews be awaiting a Prophet after the Christ? And why did John the Baptist say he is not that awaited Prophet?


1) There is nothing in this text that says that the Prophet was coming AFTER the Christ. The people are just asking John the Baptist if he is any of these persons that have been mentioned in the OT.

2) In Acts 3, Peter, a person who WALKED with the historical Jesus, specifically links this "Prophet" with Christ as a JEW...

“And now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did also your rulers. But what God foretold by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ would suffer, he thus fulfilled. Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago. Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.’ And all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and those who came after him, also proclaimed these days. You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your offspring shall all the families of the earth be blessed.’ God, having raised up his servant, sent him to you first, to bless you by turning every one of you from your wickedness.”

Please note that Peter specifically quotes Deuteronomy 18:15.

In other words, there's nothing in and of either John 1:21 OR Deuteronomy 18:15 that inherently points to Muhammad being this Prophet.

 

[YieldedOne]

I'm very curious, Salam. What have you based your interpretation of this on? Do you have any sources that I can go to of others who say that same thing as you are saying? Or any sources that justify this interpretation?

And could you answer my question about David and Psalm 51?

It's a very simple question: When David talked about God's Holy Spirit in Psalm 51, was he talking about the created angel, Gabriel?

 

[YieldedOne]

Salam Christian:
Notice that the Angel is not simply communicating the message, he is literally re-creating the vision he received from God to be communicated to John. John now sees Jesus among the lampstands, and Jesus begins speaking.

I can go with that fine (ie angel re-presenting the vision of Jesus for John. Basically angel-as-video-recorder. ). But the point is this, bro. You can't use this as proof that this angel is EXACTLY THE SAME BEING as the Holy Spirit. It's pretty flimsy as an argument. Please show me any biblical scholar and/or commentary on Revelation (liberal or otherwise) who would has said anything NEAR this.

And I'll be a monkey's uncle if your particular interpreation of this ONE PASSAGE that you use (Rev 1:1) contradicts all of the OT and NT passages about the Holy Spirit.

 

[YieldedOne]

And wait a second...

SC:
"After these things . . . And the first voice I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet said: 'Come up here so that I can show you what must happen after these things.' Immediately I was in The Spirit."

"first" here has a distinct sense of "foremost," "the one which came before."

And now, the voice who must "show John these things," The Spirit, is transmitting to him a new vision. Why does John distinguish between this voice and the voice of Jesus? There can only be one explanation: there are two speakers. This reconciles the fact that an Angel is the one who brings the message, not Jesus. Nor does he bring Jesus, and just plop him down in front of John.

Ok. I see what you're saying. Following this, let's say that that "voice of the trumpet" IS the voice of the angel...and preluding and distinct from the re-presented message of Jesus to the churches. (Two voices, remember?) None of this, bro, specifies that the angel's vocalization re-presentation of Jesus means that the angel himself is absolutely the same person as the Holy Spirit. Not at all. Especially if the "voice" that talks about the Spirit speaking to the churches is NOT the "first voice". Why? Because, taking what you are saying, CHRIST (the "second voice" ) is speaking to the churches...NOT the "first voice." The "first voice" then is just annunciatory of other things. See what I'm saying?

Your idea proves too much. The "voice of the trumpet" would be have to be DISTINCT from the Spirit of Jesus speaking to the church. See that?

 

[SalamChristian]

Ok. I see what you're saying. Following this, let's say that that "voice of the trumpet" IS the voice of the angel...and preluding and distinct from the re-presented message of Jesus to the churches. (Two voices, remember?) None of this, bro, specifies that the angel's vocalization re-presentation of Jesus means that the angel himself is absolutely the same person as the Holy Spirit.

Check it:

SC: "After these things . . . And the first voice I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet said: 'Come up here so that I can show you what must happen after these things.' Immediately I was in The Spirit."

So, the Angel with the Trumpet-like voice speaks above him, and he is in The Spirit, able to see what the Angel is seeing. See the equivalence?

Lastly, if the Angel is sent down to John by God, and the Holy Spirit is our direct link from Jesus to us (John 14:16), doesn't that also equate the two? Where does the Holy Spirit play out in your line of transmission of this message?

Peace brother

P.S. One break-down of the word "Paraclete" is para+kaléo--call (forth) by your side, summon by your side.

 

[Sol Invictus]

i understand that you have a lot to respond to salam, but i will note that you have not replied to my post.