Is the Holy Spirit the angel Gabriel?

[Ramadhan]

In Islam, the concept of God is fully understood in such clarity by illiterate farmer in the remote areas of Indonesia to software engineers in silicon valley, and they will be able to explain to non-muslims in a clear, accurate, and satisfying manner

In christiniaity, it seems the concept of God can only be grasped by a handful of pastors, priests and seminary professors, but they are not able to explain to non-christians in a clear, accurate, and satisfying manner

Is God the author of confusion, or does God want his creation to understand him in simple terms?

 

[SalamChristian]

Is God the author of confusion, or does God want his creation to understand him in simple terms?

I heaaaaaar that Brother! At the same time, I do believe that the Hadith have been used to take the mercy and trials out of the message of the Qu'ran. Some of the stories which are so beautiful in their description of God's mercifulness in the Torah and Injeel become cold and hard in the way the Hadith change the Qu'ran.

Salaam Alaikum brother

 

[SalamChristian]

Actually, you know what? I know a coupla seminary professors here in St. Paul. Professors from Bethel Seminary. I'm gonna bring up your argument in it's fulness the next time we talk and see what they say. I'll put it right here when I do, ok? I can't wait to see what they say. Wow.

Awesome! Don't forget to include the other points I made about the nature of the Holy Spirit/laying on of hands & breathing of it onto people from others. Did you see that post? You said you weren't going to respond to it because of that one question, but now that we have resolved it, what are your thoughts on the other points about the Holy Spirit that I make in that post?

Peace brother

 

[Woodrow]

I heaaaaaar that Brother! At the same time, I do believe that the Hadith have been used to take the mercy and trials out of the message of the Qu'ran. Some of the stories which are so beautiful in their description of God's mercifulness in the Torah and Injeel become cold and hard in the way the Hadith change the Qu'ran.

Salaam Alaikum brother

I am puzzled. Can you give an example of how " the Hadith change the Qu'ran."

 

[SalamChristian]

Now that we have resolved how Gabriel transmits the Holy Spirit to Mary in his visit to her, let's turn around and look at the other verses where the Holy Spirit shows up, and how they are also misunderstood:

Acts 2 describes the Pentecost. Someone lacking understanding might well say, look, here is an example where the Holy Spirit is transmitted w/o contact. However, let's look closer at the verse:

"Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them." Revelations 2:2

Most people dismiss these "tongues of fire" as meaningless. However, let's look a little closer at where "what seemed to be tongues of fire" also show up in scripture:

"The living beings looked like bright coals of fire or brilliant torches, and lightning seemed to flash back and forth among them." Ezekiel 1

"Seraphim"--the name of the highest order of Angels--means "the burning ones" or "burning serpent." Here is a quote:

"The root of Seraphim comes either from the Hebrew verb saraph ('to burn') or the Hebrew noun saraph (a fiery, flying serpent)."

It is clear from the text that Angels visited the 12 Apostles on Pentecost.

The NEXT MYTH to be debunked is the appearance of the Dove at the Baptism of Christ.

Luke:
"and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like/similar to a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."

Matthew:
"After his baptism, as Jesus came up out of the water, immediately the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like/similar to a dove and settling on him."

Mark:
"Immediately coming up out of the water, He saw the heavens opening, and the Spirit like/similar to a dove descending upon Him"

Notice that Luke is even specifies that the Spirit is in bodily form like/similar to a dove. Every single one of the Gospels verifies that it is like a dove, but not that it is a dove. Moreover, 2/3 of the Gospels states that the dove descends immediately/without delay upon Christ's surfacing from the water--"euthus". What do you know of that moves faster than anything else and is often seen in bodily form that looks like a dove? Angels! Wings, hellooooooooo!

As you can see, Angels have always been connected with the transmission of the Holy Spirit, and the carrying of it from Heaven to men on earth. Praise be to God that he has re-established the true nature of the "paraclete" in this thread.

Shalom Aleichem

 

[SalamChristian]

I am puzzled. Can you give an example of how " the Hadith change the Qu'ran."

Here is a quote for you Woodrow:

"وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته

My beloved brother,

You should know, May Allah preserve you, that recording the Sunnah, at the time of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم ) was initially prohibited then later on this command was abrogated as proven and concluded in the Sunnah.

The narrations that mention that Umar (رضي الله عنه) prohibitted compiling the Sunnah in writing or burning them came from weak routes. However, assuming the correctness of such stories, we need to know that he only disallowed compiling the Sunnah in books - at a time of Islam expansion and hence new people were embracing Islam everyday - so that they do not confuse the book of Allah with the Sunnah Books. Yet, he still encouraged people to memorize the Sunnah as the companions did instead of compiling it therefore he encourged narrating the Sunnah.

Wallahu A'lam"

Hadith is not the inerrant Word of God. The Qu'ran is. That is the difference. Hadith make good history and are good for understanding the time of the Prophet and for getting ideas about what Muhammad (as) would do, but the Qu'ran and Word of God is enough unto itself and nothing else is necessary.

Peace brother

 

[Ramadhan]

I heaaaaaar that Brother! At the same time, I do believe that the Hadith have been used to take the mercy and trials out of the message of the Qu'ran. Some of the stories which are so beautiful in their description of God's mercifulness in the Torah and Injeel become cold and hard in the way the Hadith change the Qu'ran.

I want to echo br. Woodrow's puzzlement.
Can you please clarify?
Another thing, from what I read of torah (the OT), it is full of God's wrath killing unjustly of non-israelites, women and children, while in the NT, God seems to have gone to the complete opposite direction.

 

[SalamChristian]

LASTLY, now that we have set the record straight about the BIBLE through sound exegesis, let's give credit where credit is due. The Qu'ran inspired this discussion of the Holy Spirit, the Angel Gabriel, and the Paraclete. The Qu'ran told us that Gabriel blew the Holy Spirit into Mary's vagina, and after an exegetical inspection of our own scriptures, we discover that the testimony of the Qu'ran is in fact testified to in our own scriptures, as in return our own scriptures testify to the testimony of the Qu'ran.

I recommend to all the Christian brothers and sisters on this website that you open up a Qu'ran and start to read it with an open mind instead of a closed one. In the same way, I recommend to all Muslim brothers and sisters on IB to open up the Bible and read it with an open mind. All of the problems I have found between the two are interpretational. Again, all of the problems I have found between the two are interpretational. A lot more progress will be made in our understanding if we approach each others texts this way, as the Paraclete Thread and this one have shown.

Peace brothers. Asalaam Alaikum Allahu Akbar,
AbdAllah

 

[SalamChristian]

Another thing, from what I read of torah (the OT), it is full of God's wrath killing unjustly of non-israelites, women and children, while in the NT, God seems to have gone to the complete opposite direction.

Specify for me, brother. Give me examples so I can clarify for you.

Salam

 

[Woodrow]

Here is a quote for you Woodrow:

"وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته

My beloved brother,

You should know, May Allah preserve you, that recording the Sunnah, at the time of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم ) was initially prohibited then later on this command was abrogated as proven and concluded in the Sunnah.

The narrations that mention that Umar (رضي الله عنه) prohibitted compiling the Sunnah in writing or burning them came from weak routes. However, assuming the correctness of such stories, we need to know that he only disallowed compiling the Sunnah in books - at a time of Islam expansion and hence new people were embracing Islam everyday - so that they do not confuse the book of Allah with the Sunnah Books. Yet, he still encouraged people to memorize the Sunnah as the companions did instead of compiling it therefore he encourged narrating the Sunnah.

Wallahu A'lam"

Hadith is not the inerrant Word of God. The Qu'ran is. That is the difference. Hadith make good history and are good for understanding the time of the Prophet and for getting ideas about what Muhammad (as) would do, but the Qu'ran and Word of God is enough unto itself and nothing else is necessary.

Peace brother

We do agree on one point at least:

That is the difference. Hadith make good history and are good for understanding the time of the Prophet and for getting ideas about what Muhammad (as) would do,

We do not believe the Ahadith are the Quran. They are the eyewitness accounts of how Muhammad(PBUH) followed the Quran. We learn about how to follow the Quran by reading of how the person closest to it followed it. The Ahadith are not rewritings or explanations of the Quran, they are essentially the last 20 years of Muhammad's live and how he followed the Quran. They give an example of how our predecessor followed Islam and what he understood Islam to be. What can be a better example than the words of those who lived at that time, especially the stated opinions of Muhammad(PBUH)

 

[SalamChristian]

they are essentially the last 20 years of Muhammad's live and how he followed the Quran.

They are not inerrant. Only the Word of God is inerrant.

The Qu'ran, Jibreel (as), and Muhammad (as) testify to the Divinity of the Torah and Gospel.

All of the problems which Muslims turn to the Hadith for answers to are answered in the Torah and the Gospel. For example, a common question is "how many times a day should I pray"? Jesus (pbuh) tells us to pray every time that we realize we have sinned, as soon as we are able to. If we cannot speak aloud, he also makes it clear that Allah (swt) knows what is in our heads before we say it aloud, so this is not a problem. Problem solved.

Asalaam Alaikum

 

[Woodrow]

They are not inerrant. Only the Word of God is inerrant.

The Qu'ran, Jibreel (as), and Muhammad (as) testify to the Divinity of the Torah and Gospel.

All of the problems which Muslims turn to the Hadith for answers to are answered in the Torah and the Gospel. For example, a common question is "how many times a day should I pray"? Jesus (pbuh) tells us to pray every time that we realize we have sinned, as soon as we are able to. If we cannot speak aloud, he also makes it clear that Allah (swt) knows what is in our heads before we say it aloud, so this is not a problem. Problem solved.

Asalaam Alaikum

Except the Torah never was complete and the Injil was never preserved. what is called the Gospel is basically a Hadith of how Jesus(as) lived the Injil, but it is not the Injil nor is it the word of God(swt) it is the words of man and as seen through the eyes of man.

 

[Woodrow]

They are not inerrant. Only the Word of God is inerrant.

The Qu'ran, Jibreel (as), and Muhammad (as) testify to the Divinity of the Torah and Gospel.

All of the problems which Muslims turn to the Hadith for answers to are answered in the Torah and the Gospel. For example, a common question is "how many times a day should I pray"? Jesus (pbuh) tells us to pray every time that we realize we have sinned, as soon as we are able to. If we cannot speak aloud, he also makes it clear that Allah (swt) knows what is in our heads before we say it aloud, so this is not a problem. Problem solved.

Asalaam Alaikum

Except the Torah never was complete and the Injil was never preserved. what is called the Gospel is basically a Hadith of how Jesus(as) lived the Injil, but it is not the Injil nor is it the word of God(swt) it is the words of man and as seen through the eyes of man.

 

[SalamChristian]

what is called the Gospel is basically a Hadith of how Jesus(as) lived

Why would Jibreel (as) tell us that the Truth is in the Torah and Injeel, and that we should look to those books to see it? He told us to look to the Torah and the Injeel to find the Truth that the Qu'ran preaches. Isn't there an ayah in the Qu'ran to the effect of: 'if something else is taken as the Truth then its author must be produced and surely he must be a prophet?'

Shalom

 

[Ramadhan]

LASTLY, now that we have set the record straight about the BIBLE through sound exegesis, let's give credit where credit is due. The Qu'ran inspired this discussion of the Holy Spirit, the Angel Gabriel, and the Paraclete. The Qu'ran told us that Gabriel blew the Holy Spirit into Mary's vagina, and after an exegetical inspection of our own scriptures, we discover that the testimony of the Qu'ran is in fact testified to in our own scriptures, as in return our own scriptures testify to the testimony of the Qu'ran.

Please show me a Qur'an verse where it says Gabriel blew the holy spirit into Mary's vagina?

Although I must admit, that sounds like something out of bible.

 

[SalamChristian]

Mary's vagina?

the word is "farj," and it means vagina.

Apparently I am not allowed to post the link to this proof? Anyway, if you want the link to the proof of this, I will send it to you.

Shalom

 

[Woodrow]

Why would Jibreel (as) tell us that the Truth is in the Torah and Injeel, and that we should look to those books to see it? He told us to look to the Torah and the Injeel to find the Truth that the Qu'ran preaches. Isn't there an ayah in the Qu'ran to the effect of: 'if something else is taken as the Truth then its author must be produced and surely he must be a prophet?'

Shalom

Just my opinion here. But I see that as meaning what was revealed in the Torah and Injil originally, is repeated in the Qur'an. We do not believe the Qur'an is a new message, it is the same message that was always given, but revealed for all of mankind one last time in the Qur'an. Our last chance to learn what Allaah(swt) has always told mankind. The Torah and Injil, corrected and completed in a way it can be understood by all of us.

 

[Ramadhan]

They are not inerrant. Only the Word of God is inerrant.

Agreed. Although we believe in the authenticity of the shahih ahadeeth, unless you can show us otherwise.
There was a comparison in another thread between ahadeeth and gospels, and how it was shown that the gospels are much less authentic.

Also, we (muslims and christians) agree that gospels are not the Word of God, and hence suject to error, especially if its authenticity is not guaranteed.
So in that account, we are settled.

 

[SalamChristian]

The Torah and Injil, corrected and completed in a way it can be understood by all of us.

I agree. I am amazed at how the Qu'ran has challenged my views of the scripture, and consistently been correct according to an exegetical reading of my scriptures. This thread is just one example. It has been happening for the last 2 months since I started reading it, and it is downright eerie. When I started this thread, I didn't believe at all that Gabriel or Angels had a connection with the giving of the Holy Spirit, but now after this thread you see that it is clearly true for all to see. Clarity, that's what the Qu'ran promises. A clear book.

Corrected, however, is not the right word. The Torah and Injeel are not corrected, and that is not what the Qu'ran says. The MISINTERPRETATIONS of those DIVINE scriptures are corrected, and the true, clear interpretation is presented. The Qu'ran does not deny the inerrancy of the Bible, it affirms it.

Peace

 

[SalamChristian]

There was a comparison in another thread between ahadeeth and gospels, and how it was shown that the gospels are much less authentic.

No way! Someone on here was talking the other day about how one Hadith claims Muhammad (as) was short and overweight, which is a clear lie (all respect to Muhammad (pbuh)) Another Hadith clearly refutes it. NOTHING like that happens in the Gospels. It was a straight up insult to Muhammad (as) and hateful lie.

Also, we (muslims and christians) agree that gospels are not the Word of God

I don't agree. Jibreel (as) testifies to their inherent Truthfulness, and that the problems are simply interpretational. If you take the testimony of the Qu'ran and re-examine the scriptures with an open mind and a sound exegesis, you are actually enlightened about the Bible. I have experienced it now several times.

Shalom