Is the bible the word of God

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Nah, it clearly says worship Jesus and Mary (pbut) in books,
This rock is different it is a specially chosen corner stone which is surrounded in mystery, some say it was sent down as an asteroid,
Others say angels carried it down when Abraham sent ishmael to get a stone,
Ishmael came back and found a peculiar stone already put in place.
It is neither capable of thinking, nor interceding.
But the prophet (pbuh) would kiss it on his rounds- so we do.

42Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
Matthew 21
 
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Pygoscelis said:
Is the rock similar to the crucifix that catholics put in their homes? Not something to be worshiped, but something to focus on and channel worship to God?
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What rock?
Ka'bah or hajar aswat?

It just seems non-muslims keep confusing hajar aswat (the black stones) which are only very small stones as cornerstone of Ka'bah with ka'bah itself which is a rectangular building in the centre of masjidil haram in makka.

And to answer your question: Not at all.

I don't think of ka'bah and/or the black stones whenever I perform 5 times daily shalah. And this also goes with every other muslim.
When a muslim perform shalah, we think as if we are in front of Allah while reciting the surah and supplications, that's where our focus is.
And even when I was in masjidil haram literally RIGHT IN FRONT of ka'bah (like inches away) and the black stone, I did not think of it when I was doing tawaf and shalah, all I thought of was how lowly and yet fortunate I was to be able to worship Allah.

And if the catholics focus on the crucifix, then the crucifix become their God.
Why not directly focus your worship to God?
 
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Ramadhan said:

And even when I was in masjidil haram literally RIGHT IN FRONT of ka'bah (like inches away) and the black stone, I did not think of it when I was doing tawaf and shalah, all I thought of was how lowly and yet fortunate I was to be able to worship Allah.
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You are exactly correct. It was the same for me during hajj last year. Even though I once had the chance to offer salah only a few rows from the Kaaba, my visual focus was on the spot where where my forehead touched the ground. However, it was a surreal other-world experience for me to pray in Masjid Al-Haram and I felt as if I was standing in the presence of Allah (swt) much more so than when I pray at home or even when I prayed in Masjid An-Nabawi.
 
MustafaMc said:
You are exactly correct. It was the same for me during hajj last year. Even though I once had the chance to offer salah only a few rows from the Kaaba, my visual focus was on the spot where where my forehead touched the ground. However, it was a surreal other-world experience for me to pray in Masjid Al-Haram and I felt as if I was standing in the presence of Allah (swt) much more so than when I pray at home or even when I prayed in Masjid An-Nabawi.
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This is also exactly how I felt. The feelings were so overwhelming. Crying was an insufficient outlet for it.
 
it did didn't it - it actually felt like a powerful presence - despite my being far from Islam and my mum taking me to sort my act out.
the word which best describes my feelings in Makkah is MAGNIFICENCE - a small individual before God.
and in Medina - peace and tranquility, a part of a loving brotherhood.
 
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I agree about feeling a 'part of a loving brotherhood' as I felt that in both Medina and Mecca. At first, I never felt so alone, being in a foreign country and looking so very different from everyone else. Then after a bit I felt completely at ease and a part of a gigantic family after talking to, and feeling accepted by, brothers from all over the world.
 
MustafaMc said:
I agree about feeling a 'part of a loving brotherhood' as I felt that in both Medina and Mecca. At first, I never felt so alone, being in a foreign country and looking so very different from everyone else. Then after a bit I felt completely at ease and a part of a gigantic family after talking to, and feeling accepted by, brothers from all over the world.
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Amazing. May Allah bless you. Ameeen.
 
If the Bible is the word of God, why would it have to guess, suppose, or assume who the father of Jesus was as in Luke 3:23 "And Jesus himself, when he began to teach, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli"? If Jesus was born to the virgin Mary without sexual relations, why trace his genealogy through Joseph as in Matthew 1:16 "and Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ."?

Are not these two simple ayah more befitting of the majesty of Allah (swt) and evidence of the Quran as the word of Allah (swt) Quran 3:59 "The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: 'Be'. And he was." as well as Quran 66:12 "And Mary the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (her body) of Our spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout (servants)."?

The Quran even addresses the charge of Jesus being the illegitimate son of Mary through fornication made by the Jews even today as in Quran 19:27-34 At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought! O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!" But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?" He (Jesus) said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah. He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet; And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live; (He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable; So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"! Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.
 
"That they rejected Faith;
That they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;
That they said (in boast): We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.
But they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them,
and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.
 ... And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness against them."
(Quran, 4:156-159)
 
About Jesus and generation. Yeah, Jesus is a son of Joseph as far as his holy humanity is concerned. Sonship is not just blood, but mostly love/faith. There are those who share blood, but desown each other because their hearts are dead. But those who share the bond of love and truth are more deeply related than 'natural' blood relatives. I said 'natural' because there is a 'supernatural' bloodline called Faith. I thought you would have a sense of this as you call each other brother/sister without being natural blood relative. At the end there is a quote of a detailed ancient Christian's (Thomas Aquina) comment on Muslim critiques of Christian claim of generation in God. It also explain more about the word of God according to Christianity.

Any simple, humble, and honest mind can see that the Bible is a sacred memorial document. Christianity is not founded on the Bible: Christianity existed before the compilation of the Bible, it existed before any document of the New Testament was written down. The Bible and its books and its many authors is like a family album. A family album is sacred for the family. It contains precious shared times, memories, stories, joys, sorrows, struggles, etc. But the family is not founded on the album. And you can not understand the family just by looking at the album. The album is not meant to explain the family or its life, it is meant to keep the sacred memories of the family life. Family members can go to it to reconnect and deepen their intimacy and love for each other as well as their ancestors. But strangers can be easly lost and rightly lost. For if it is with holyness of spirit that they try to understand the family in the album, they would politely ask, and they would be guided to the truth.
Strangers can give all kinds of interpretations to the pictures they see. Only a person born in the family and who has been guided through the album by real parents can have the proper understanding of the pictures in the album.
It is the samething with the Bible. It was compiled in this family spirit. Also those who wrote its various documents did it in this family spirit. These document were all meant for those who are already in the Faith, not strangers. A stranger who read it should find those who are in the Faith and ask to undestand the Faith so he may understand their family memorial document.
Understanding of Christianity comes first, then the understanding the Bible.
It is not like the Quran. You can understand the Quran without being a Muslim and become Muslim after reading it. But you can not understand the Bible without being Christian first. Even younger/new Christian can't understand the Bible anymore than a young child would understand the family album with photos of people the child does not now yet or heard of before.
 
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Ah, finally a christian who admits that bible is only for christians while Qur'an is for humanity.
 
Amigo said:
About Jesus and generation. Yeah, Jesus is a son of Joseph as far as his holy humanity is concerned. Sonship is not just blood, but mostly love/faith. There are those who share blood, but desown each other because their hearts are dead. But those who share the bond of love and truth are more deeply related than 'natural' blood relatives. I said 'natural' because there is a 'supernatural' bloodline called Faith. I thought you would have a sense of this as you call each other brother/sister without being natural blood relative. At the end there is a quote of a detailed ancient Christian's (Thomas Aquina) comment on Muslim critiques of Christian claim of generation in God. It also explain more about the word of God according to Christianity.

Any simple, humble, and honest mind can see that the Bible is a sacred memorial document. Christianity is not founded on the Bible: Christianity existed before the compilation of the Bible, it existed before any document of the New Testament was written down. The Bible and its books and its many authors is like a family album. A family album is sacred for the family. It contains precious shared times, memories, stories, joys, sorrows, struggles, etc. But the family is not founded on the album. And you can not understand the family just by looking at the album. The album is not meant to explain the family or its life, it is meant to keep the sacred memories of the family life. Family members can go to it to reconnect and deepen their intimacy and love for each other as well as their ancestors. But strangers can be easly lost and rightly lost. For if it is with holyness of spirit that they try to understand the family in the album, they would politely ask, and they would be guided to the truth.
Strangers can give all kinds of interpretations to the pictures they see. Only a person born in the family and who has been guided through the album by real parents can have the proper understanding of the pictures in the album.
It is the samething with the Bible. It was compiled in this family spirit. Also those who wrote its various documents did it in this family spirit. These document were all meant for those who are already in the Faith, not strangers. A stranger who read it should find those who are in the Faith and ask to undestand the Faith so he may understand their family memorial document.

um, which bible?

Understanding of Christianity comes first, then the understanding the Bible.
It is not like the Quran.

we agree!

You can understand the Quran without being a Muslim and become Muslim after reading it.

Alhamdulillah, this is true!

But you can not understand the Bible without being Christian first. Even younger/new Christian can't understand the Bible anymore than a young child would understand the family album with photos of people the child does not now yet or heard of before.
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so what you are saying is that the Creator God gave people a book that they CAN'T understand is the truth in order for them to find the truth; which they CAN'T know is the truth. and this makes sense to you? it doesn't sound like some kind of game show?

it makes MUCH MORE sense for the Creator God to give people a book which they CAN understand in order to lead them to the truth, because THAT is what a God Infinite Wisdom would do! and thus He has!

good day
 
YusufNoor said:
so what you are saying is that the Creator God gave people a book that they CAN'T understand is the truth in order for them to find the truth; which they CAN'T know is the truth. and this makes sense to you? it doesn't sound like some kind of game show?

it makes MUCH MORE sense for the Creator God to give people a book which they CAN understand in order to lead them to the truth, because THAT is what a God Infinite Wisdom would do! and thus He has!

good day
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:sl:

I was just going to say this, but brother Yusuf here beat me to it. I am disappointed and impressed at the same time, brother. ;D

Although I do disagree with what Amigo said. I read the Bible before I was a Christian and understood it, and I read it now still as a Muslim, and I can still understand it.
 
YusufNoor said:
so what you are saying is that the Creator God gave people a book that they CAN'T understand is the truth in order for them to find the truth; which they CAN'T know is the truth. and this makes sense to you? it doesn't sound like some kind of game show?
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No I am saying that God gave people much more than a book. They are capable of coming to him without a book or any other human made thing or invention. The same divine power that creates people also saves them. No need of a book to be created and no need of a book to be saved. For the Church, sacred books are for celebration of the Faith, celebrating something which already exist.
God is self-sufficient, He does not need human invention (artificial things) to do his work of salvation.
 
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Greetings and peace be with you all,

The Bible is written at many different levels, there are simple passages for children to understand; right up to profound passages that keep you searching and striving.

I have read the Bible a number of times, and beyond a doubt, I believe it to be the inspired word of God, written in a way that I might achieve salvation by trying to live by its teachings.

Blessings and peace be with you all,

Eric
 
I too read it and have a deep respect for it due to the words of the prophets and the prophecies it contains,
I also agree that it has different levels,
The truth in it is at the highest level,
And the changes made by men for - God knows who - because even children would see through the flaws.

Joseph is not the physical father of Jesus but they wrote it along with a genealogy?
And then he's the spiritual father..........
I thought they told you that was Almighty God? (astaghfirullah).
So God is the spiritual father and Joseph is the spiritual father,
And Maryam (pbuh) is the mother, and Jesus is God?
And so Joseph is the spiritual father of Almighty God?
(God forgive them for they know not what they say).
No offence meant but it is sometimes necessary to clarify ones view.

The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire,
and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven,
and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods,
that they may provoke me to anger.
Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD:
do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?
Jeremiah 7:18-19
 
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Amigo said:
About Jesus and generation. Yeah, Jesus is a son of Joseph as far as his holy humanity is concerned. Sonship is not just blood, but mostly love/faith. There are those who share blood, but desown each other because their hearts are dead. But those who share the bond of love and truth are more deeply related than 'natural' blood relatives. I said 'natural' because there is a 'supernatural' bloodline called Faith. I thought you would have a sense of this as you call each other brother/sister without being natural blood relative.
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So, Joseph was Jesus' adoptive father. I can go along with that, but the 'bond of love' isn't one of a real father to a real son. This is reflected in Islam in that legal adoption with changing of family name is not allowed. Ask any Jew if an adopted son can realistically trace his genealogy through the person who adopted him. Yes, we Muslims are brothers in faith with ties that surpass those of blood as you speak, but we don't trace ancestry through each other.
It is the same thing with the Bible. It was compiled in this family spirit. Also those who wrote its various documents did it in this family spirit. These document were all meant for those who are already in the Faith, not strangers. A stranger who read it should find those who are in the Faith and ask to undestand the Faith so he may understand their family memorial document.
Understanding of Christianity comes first, then the understanding the Bible.
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So, one should first come to have faith in Christianity by having it taught to him and then with the background of that faith he can then have the ability to understand the Bible. This gets back to the doctrine about the Trinity with Christians having difficulty explaing it and ending with saying, "I can't explain it, but I accept it on faith."
It is not like the Quran. You can understand the Quran without being a Muslim and become Muslim after reading it. But you can not understand the Bible without being Christian first. Even younger/new Christian can't understand the Bible anymore than a young child would understand the family album with photos of people the child does not now yet or heard of before.
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So, do I understand correctly that an unbeliever can't read the Bible, from this reading come to understand the basic premises of Christianity, decide on his own it is the Truth and then desire to become a Christian? That is exactly what happened to me when I read the Quran, like you indicated was possible.

If I understood what you wrote and quoted, the Bible is not the Word of God, but rather Jesus was the Word of God. Hence the Gospel is not what Jesus taught, per se, but rather the Gospel is what others wrote and taught about Jesus' life and supposed death on the cross for man's redemption from sin. We Muslims believe that the Quran is the Word of Allah (swt), but we in no manner worship the Quran as Christians do Jesus.
 
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
1 corinthians 14:33

who are the saints and what do the saints believe?

And it was given unto him (the beast) to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:
and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity:
he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword.
Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Revelation 13

so an international force will make war with the saints (no-one has had control over the kingdoms of the world until of late),
and their law is different to turning the other cheek.............

178. O ye who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder:
the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman.
But if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then grant any reasonable demand, and compensate him with handsome gratitude, this is a concession and a Mercy from your Lord. After this whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave penalty.
179. In the Law of Equality there is (saving of) Life to you, o ye men of understanding; that ye may restrain yourselves.
Quran 2:178-179

The Project for the New American Century (PNAC) was an American think tank based inWashington, D.C.. It was co-founded as a non-profit educational organization byneoconservatives William Kristol and Robert Kagan. The PNAC's stated goal was
"to promote American global leadership."
Fundamental to the PNAC were the view that "American leadership is both good for America and good for the world"

Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen,
and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
Jeremiah 10:2
 
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abz2000 said:
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
1 corinthians 14:33
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So if a book is confusing for the general population, then it must not have come from God, correct?
 

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