Answering Atheism in one paragraph

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Post #101:

By now, we should look back and ask ourselves WHY is it so difficult for one (in this case, atheists) to let go of their claims (we wont use the word 'beliefs' again, lol) - despite the fact that:

- Their arguments lack logic (clear for all who really wish to ponder over these issues, to see)
- They have no reasonable answers for the rest.

There are a few reasons for this:

"#1 From a psychological viewpoint, this information may not be easy to swallow, one can not accept this info and go on with their lives in the same way.
The brain recognizes that this info will force it to re-arrange and re-program several pieces of information it has accumulated over the years. And the brain will fight, because this requires a high amount of mental effort, and the best way to avoid such effort, is to reject the info.

#2 The second reason deals with the problem of ego. Due to a person’s ego he will fight you and your information, because he/she values their words over yours.
They can’t accept that you (or the rest of the world) might of stumbled upon such valuable truths, that they did not realize before, and in defense of their ego, they disclaim your truths.

#3 In many occasions, the person is so comfortable living the fast life, that they simply don’t want to change their way of life, and couldn’t care less about what’s happening in the world. They are too focused on themselves.

#4 Many people are not ready to be 'unplugged', and many of them are so innert, so hopelessly dependant on the system that they will fight to protect it.

#5 They believe and value the voice of the system - it has become the prime decider of their reality."


Adapted from 'The Arrivals'





We can only direct you to the truth.
It is up to you to make the effort of opening your eyes, heart and mind to it.

And when, there are more holes to ones theories than actual substance, we should ask ourselves - what is the actual reason that we cannot let go?


Regards
 
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I completely agree that the only source of this universe is Allah. However, Atheists are so blind that they refuse to believe this, and they will still reject the concept of God altogether. They simply do not want to believe in Allah, and they want to live a life free of responsibility for their actions. They will still argue that the source is not God but everything just happened, and out of nowhere for no reason things came into place.

Atheism can be answered in so many ways, but at the end of the day, even though the existence of God is clear as day, they will still disbelieve in Him. I know this now after observing their behavior here in the West. They just want complete and unrestricted freedom to do whatever they want, just as long as nobody is hurt in the process. They have no concept of spirituality. They are blind in their hearts, so they cannot see the path. I sometimes feel as if that is the effect of the seal of Allah. Those who do not want to believe, Allah makes it happen for them, and those who want to believe, Allah makes the path to Him easy for them.

Just pray for Atheists to turn to Islam. They think themselves above people of religion because apparently they are rational and we are not. They disbelieve in revelation from Allah. Therefore, they reject all Prophets of Allah. Let's just hope the world's move towards Atheism doesn't bring Divine punishment upon them. Every prophet that was mocked in the past became the cause of those people's downfall due to their mockery of them. So please, just pray that Allah make them see the light of truth.
 
I'm not aware of anybody who does that. Those who support the theory of evolution don't do that, and if you think they do then you don't understand their theory.

As for the creator making all this beautiful stuff. If you want to go there, then you've got to take a close look at all the nasty and incompetent "designs", especially in biology. This isn't a thread about evolution, nor do I push for evolution so I'll leave that for anybody else here who wants to start that thread up again.



Already asked and answered. Your so-called messengers and books are amongst hundreds of others, which you and I both can see are probably made by men, which reflect the cultures that created them. I see no reason to put any more credence into your claim than into those which were made for Zeus, Thor, Osiris, or the hundreds of other Gods that now fill the pages of abandoned mythologies.


well i dont subscribe to evolution.

at its base its more than a theory of evolution.

it is a theory of persecution... for rhyming sake.

i mean does it not originally lead onto views of lesser intellegence in certain ethnicities? by its author.

i mean you would have to define "intellegence" within that theory also.

it literally was a "world view" for its originator.


as for incompetent "designs"

god does work in mysterious ways.

maybe inferiority complexes are missing the point of equality and rights?


anyway its an organised sort of chaos.. messy yes.

but thats why its a personal god.

and religion makes that distinction very well.


That didn't actually answer the question. Can he or can he not create a rock he can't lift?

I don't actually stand by the "Can god build a rock big enough that even he can't lift it question" by the way. I was just using it as another example of infinity looking nonsensical. I don't think inifinity can actually be so easily dismissed just because it is hard to conceive of. I have seen some pretty interesting discussions on infinity and it left my head spinning.


first time im answering yay.

why does god need to lift rocks? surely he has people to do that for him.

anyway joking aside.


the very idea of the question is absurd!


can god create something that he cannot uncreate?

well, look to the earth.

how long have we got left?

bet science can give you a ball park figure dependant of the life expectancy of the sun.

but then you have global warming.

nuclear war.

famine.

disease.

and god knows what else to worry about.

so i doubt that the rock needs moving.


those able to do so of there own accord may need to think twice.


but can god actually move rocks of infinite mass?

ask a physicist.
 
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That didn't actually answer the question. Can he or can he not create a rock he can't lift?

That question is stupid. Fact is that God is the Almighty. He is the Greatest. and nothing can ever be greater than Him. He is also all-powerful. So there will never be a rock that God can't lift. It doesn't mean God can't do this or that. But We human beings simply cannot comprehend His power. Just consider the whole universe and everything in it and how vast and great it is. God is greater than all of it. In a hadith (saying of the final Prophet Muhammad -God's peace be upon him - it is written that everything created from the beginning of time to the end of the world fits on the palm of God's Hand. Then consider how great God is and how small we are, tinier than a speck of dust. that is how tiny we are.

God says in Chapter 57 verse one of th Holy Quran:


All that is in the heavens and the earth extols the glory of Allah. He is the Most Mighty, the Most Wise.

The commentary of this verse is as follows:
That is, not only is He All-Mighty and All-Wise, but the truth is that He alone is All-Mighty and All-Wise. The word 'Aziz signifies a mighty and powerful Being Whose decrees cannot be prevented by any power in the world from being enforced, Whom no one can oppose and resist, Who has to be obeyed by everyone whether one likes it or not, Whose rebel cannot escape His accountability and punishment in any way; and Hakim signifies that whatever He does He does it wisely. His creation, His administration and rule, His commands and guidance, all are based on wisdom. None of His works is tarnished by any tract of folly or ignorance.

There is another fine point here, which one should fully understand. Seldom in the Qur'an has Allah's attribute of `Aziz (All-Mighty) been accompanied by His attributes of being Qawi (Strong), Mugtadir(Powerful), Jabber (Omnipotent), Dhuntiqam (Avenger) and the like, which only signify His absolute power, and this has been so only in places where the context demanded that the wicked and disobedient be warned of Allah's relentless punishment. Apart from such few places, wherever the word 'Aziz has been used for Allah, it has everywhere been accompanied by one Or other of His attributes of being Hakim (Wise), Alim (Knower), Rahim (Merciful), Ghafur (Forgiving), Wahhab (Generous) and Hamid (Praiseworthy). The reason is that if a being who wields un-limited power is at the same time foolish, ignorant, un-forgiving as well as stingy and devoid of character, its power and authority cannot but lead to injustice and wickedness Thus, wherever injustice and wickedness is being committed in the world, it is only because the one who wields authority over others, is either using his power un-wisely and foolishly, or he is merciless and hardhearted, or evil-minded and wicked. Wherever power is coupled with these evil traits of character, no good can be expected to result. That is why in the Holy Qur'an Allah's attribute of `Aziz has necessarily been accompanied by His attributes of being All-Wise and Knowing, Compassionate and Forgiving, Praiseworthy and Generous, so that man may know that the God Who is ruling this universe has, on the' one hand, such absolute power that no one, from the earth to the heavens, can prevent His decrees from being enforced, but, on the other, He is also AlI-Wise: His each decision is based on perfect wisdom; He is also AII-Knowing whatever decision He makes, it precisely according to knowledge; He is also Compassionate: He does not use infinite power mercilessly; He is Forgiving as well: He does not punish His creatures for trifling faults, but overlooks their errors; He is also Generous: He does not treat His subjects stingily, but liberally and benevolently; and He is also Praiseworthy: He combines in Himself all praiseworthy virtues and excellences.

The full importance of this statement of the Qur'an can be better understood by those people who are aware of the discussions of the philosophy of politics and law on the question of sovereignty. Sovereignty connotes that the one who possesses it should wield unlimited power: there should be no internal and external power to change or modify his decision or prevent it from being enforced, and none should have any alternative but to obey him. At the mere concept of this infinite and unlimited power, man's common-sense necessarily demands that whoever attains to such power, should be faultless and perfect in knowledge and wisdom, for if the one holding this power is ignorant, merciless and evil, his sovereignty will inevitably lead to wickedness and corruption. That is why the philosophers who regarded a single man, or a man-made institution, or an assembly of men as the holder of this power, have had to presume that he or it would be infallible. But obviously, neither can unlimited sovereignty be actually attained by a human power, nor is it possible for a king, or a parliament, or a nation, or a party that it may use the sovereignty attained by it in a limited circle faultlessly and harmlessly. The reason is that the wisdom that is wholly free of every trace of folly, and the knowledge that fully comprehends all the related truths, is not at all possessed even by entire mankind, not to speak of its being attained by an individual, or an institution, or a nation. Likewise, as long as man is man, his being wholly free of and above selfishness, sensuality, fear, greed, desires, prejudice and sentimental love, anger and hate is also not possible. If a person ponders over these truths, he will realize that the Qur'an is indeed presenting here a correct and perfect view of sovereignty. It says that no one except Allah in this universe is possessor of absolute power, and with this unlimited power He alone is faultless, All-Wise and All-Knowing, Compassionate and Forgiving, and Praiseworthy and Generous in His dealings with His subjects.

Commentary from Tafheemul-Quran English translation http://www.tafheem.net/tafheem.html
 
How are we introducing 'another' infinity?
The ONLY thing that is infinite (as described by God Himself) - is God.
The universe itself is not infinite.
How can it possibly be?
Even many astrophysicists believe that our own solar system will cease to exist one day! (#shaking my head in utter despair#)
Not sure where you get this from. Most astrophysicists believe the universe is indeed infinite, and time may be infinite too (so that's two things besides God). The death of our tiny, irrelevant little solar system (which all astrophysicists expect) is not important in the grand scale of things (although it's rather bad news for us).

The Big Bang theory has become popular with many Christians and Muslims because it appears to offer a definite beginning and an end to the universe. Also, many people believe they can see a match with some of the textual description of Creation in the Bible and the Qur’an.

But in reality the Big Bang theory is not even attempting to describe the whole of existence. It’s just trying to explain the observable phenomena we have so far. Maybe we should distinguish between ‘the universe’ (ie our particular universe) and ‘existence’ (all possible universes and/or the state of our universe either preceding or following the Big Bang-to-entropy phase which includes us).

The energy that was concentrated in the centre of our universe may have existed infinitely prior to the Big Bang. And even if our universe tends towards total entropy and the elimination of all life, the universe itself may still continue – it’s just that won’t be around to philosophise about it. And finally, as has been said many times, if this universe is just one part of a multiverse, then the birth and death of this universe could be just one part of an eternal energy exchange across dimensional boundaries.

Therefore, as far as astrophysics is concerned there is no beginning or end to be explained. There is no necessary place in the logic for a first mover or Creator at the dawn of time – simply because time has no dawn. If existence is infinite in time and space, it doesn’t make sense to ask who or what started it.

There is no point in continually making the ‘everything that has been created has to have a Creator’ argument until these other possibilities are eliminated, which science is in no position to do right now. You can find other reasons for faith, but arguments based on astrophysics, infinite regression and a first mover cannot provide a logical ‘proof’ because we don’t even know if existence has anything that could be described as a ‘beginning’.

Please don't interpret this as an argument that God doesn’t exist. Science can't prove that. But nor can it prove that he does.

Astrophysics does not yet provide a logical or factual proof of a Creator and it is wrong for MohammadR or any other person to pretend that it does. If he posited it as a theory, not as incontrovertible fact, then it would be fine.

It could be true. It’s just that we can’t tell right now.
 
Please don't interpret this as an argument that God doesn’t exist. Science can't prove that. But nor can it prove that he does.

I agree with you that science cannot prove that God doesn't exist, however, science can most definitely prove that God does exist. What science is discovering very recently only because of the development of technologies was written in a book more than 1,400 years ago. To me it just looks like you're very ignorant about Islam and the fact that you compare the Qur'aan to the Bible or the Vedas just shows your lack of knowledge about religion. Scientific inaccuracies have been found in ALL religious scriptures - except for the Qur'aan. The Bible has been proved to be corrupted and so have every other religious scripture, except the Qur'aan. This is the only book without scientific inaccuracies, without any errors, without any contradictions or corruptions. Any person who reads the Qur'aan with an open-mind will conclude that it is a word of God. I quote the Qur'aan, 28:49-50
Say, "Then bring a scripture from Allah which is more guiding than either of them that I may follow it, if you should be truthful."
But if they do not respond to you - then know that they only follow their [own] desires. And who is more astray than one who follows his desire without guidance from Allah ? Indeed, Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people.
 
Not sure where you get this from. Most astrophysicists believe the universe is indeed infinite, and time may be infinite too (so that's two things besides God)

Most definitely, not so!

(It is quite interesting to note that most atheists dont actually understand the basis of what they, themselves ascribe to. Ask any atheist that you may meet, and it is likely that they will not be able to explain their own existence, in their own words.

Which is sad - because, this is our LIFE that we are discussing, not a recipe for a cake :P
And if an atheist cannot understand their own 'recipe' (or what they have interpreted it to be), it means that they have chosen to blindly follow the latest
'pseudoscientific' theory of the day......without much understanding.

We only have one life, one chance at this. There is no coming back, to undo our mistakes. So lets make sure that we are certain in what we are ascribing our entire lives to.)

The following article is a worth-while read:


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The Quranic Argument for God's Existence

No question is more sublime than why there is a universe: why there is anything rather than nothing.”[1]

When we reflect upon our own existence we will come to the realisation, that at some point in time, we began to exist.

Since we were once non-existent and are now in existence, it follows that we must have had a beginning. In light of this, the Qur’an raises some profound questions: were we created by nothing? Did we create ourselves? Or did we create the universe?

“Or were they created by nothing? Or were they the creators (of themselves)? Or did they create heavens and earth? Rather, they are not certain.” Quran 52:35-36 (<--SubhanAllah, just look at this - Allah even describes you guys in the Quraan! Allahu Akbar!!)

These questions can be addressed to the existence of everything temporal, in other words the entire universe. Therefore, the exegetical implications of these verses can be logically formulated in the following way:

Things that began to exist were either:-

1. Created or brought into being from nothing
2. Self caused or self created
3. Created or brought into being by something else that began to exist
4. Created or brought into being by a non-created or un-caused entity

Before we proceed, the first presupposition has to be subtantiated, as it forms the basis for the Qur’an’s argument for the existence of God. This first assumption is that the universe began to exist.

Did the universe begin to exist?

To substantiate the view that the universe began to exist we can bring into our discussion a plethora of philosophical and inductive arguments:

1. The second law of thermodynamics
2. The absurdity of an infinite history of past events
3. Astrophysical evidence

1. The second law of thermodynamics

The concept of entropy was introduced to explain the direction of various processes that occur in the natural world. Entropy is a measure of how evenly energy is distributed in a system. For example, heat always flows from a body of a higher temperature or energy (low entropy) to one of a lower temperature or energy (high entropy). Take the following illustration of a container with gas,


when the partition is removed, the gas in one end of the container will spread to the whole of the container, going from a state of low entropy (higher temperature or energy) to high entropy (lower temperature or energy).

Hence, according to the second law of thermodynamics, processes in a closed system tend towards higher entropy, as their energy is being used.

Applying the second law of thermodynamics to the universe we will conclude that it must have began to exist.

Since the universe is a closed system, with enough time the universe will suffer a heat death or thermodynamic equilibrium. When systems are in thermodynamic equilibrium, they cannot transfer energy. This is because entropy can only increase over time. Therefore, as the universe continues to expand it will eventually become cold and dead.

However this raises a question, if the universe never began to exist it would imply that the universe has existed for an infinite amount of time.
If this is true then why isn’t the universe already in a state of heat death?


This strongly suggests that the universe must have had a beginning, because if it didn’t it would imply that it has existed for an infinite amount of time, which would mean that it should already have suffered a heat death. Since it hasn’t suffered a heat death, it strongly indicates that the universe is finite, meaning it began to exist.


2. The absurdity of an infinite history of past events

Some philosophers such as Bertrand Russell argued that the universe is eternal, meaning it has no beginning and it will never end.

However if we think about this we will conclude that this position is irrational. If the universe never had a beginning it means there must be an infinite history of past events. Yet does an actual infinite exist in the real world? Is it possible?

The concept of the actual infinite cannot be exported into the real world, because it leads to contradictions and doesn’t make sense. Let’s take the following examples to illustrate this point:

1. Say you have an infinite number of balls, if I take 2 balls away, how many do you have left? Infinity. Does that make sense? Well, there should be two less than infinity, and if there is, then we should be able to count how many balls you have. But this is impossible, because the infinite is just an idea and doesn’t exist in the real world. In light of this fact the famous German mathematician David Hilbert said,

“The infinite is nowhere to be found in reality. It neither exists in nature nor provides a legitimate basis for rational thought…the role that remains for the infinite to play is solely that of an idea.”[2]


2. Imagine you are a soldier ready to fire a gun, but before you shoot you have to ask permission for the soldier behind you, but he has to do the same, and it goes on for infinity. Will you ever shoot? No you wouldn’t. This highlights, the absurdity of an infinite regress and this applies to events to. Therefore, there cannot be an infinite history of past events.

3. Take the distance between two points, one may argue that you can subdivide the distance into infinite parts, but you will always be subdividing and never actually reach the ‘infinitieth’ part! So in reality the infinite is potential and can never be actualised. Similarly the ancient Greek Philosopher Aristotle explained,

“…the infinite is potential, never actual: the number of parts that can be taken always surpasses any assigned number.”[3]

So if we refer back to an infinite history of past events we can conclude, since events are not just ideas they are real, the number of past events cannot be infinite.

Therefore the universe must be finite, in other words the cosmos had a beginning.

3. Astrophysical evidence

The ‘Big Bang’ is the prevailing theory in cosmology.

It was first formulated by the aid of some observations made by an American Astronomer called Edwin Hubble. While Hubble was trying to understand the size of the universe, he observed immensely luminous stars called Cepheid Variables and noticed something peculiar. He observed that some of these stars were further away than initially anticipated, and that their colour was slightly changed, shifting towards red, something now known as red-shift. From Hubble’s observations we were able conclude that everything seems to be moving away from each other, in other words the universe is effectively expanding. As time moves on the universe continues to expand, but if time is reversed, the theory is that everything starts to coalesce and come together. Coupled with the discovery of cosmic microwave background radiation, which is the radiation uniformly filling the observable universe, the idea of the ‘Big Bang’ was born. In other words the universe began at a cataclysmic event which created space-time and all matter in the universe. The physicist P. C. W. Davies explains,

“If we extrapolate this prediction to its extreme, we reach a point when all distances in the universe have shrunk to zero. An initial cosmological singularity therefore forms a past temporal extremity to the universe. We cannot continue physical reasoning, or even the concept of spacetime, through such an extremity.

For this reason most cosmologists think of the initial singularity as the beginning of the universe. On this view the big bang represents the creation event; the creation not only of all the matter and energy in the universe, but also of spacetime itself.”[4]

Although our understanding of what happened 10-43 seconds after the ‘Big Bang’ is highly speculative, astrophysicists now concede little doubt that this universe in which we live is the aftermath of the emergence and expansion of space-time, which occurred approximately 14 billion years ago. John Gribbin, an astrophysicist at Cambridge University, summarises the importance of ‘Big Bang’ cosmology,

“…the discovery of the century, in cosmology at least, was without doubt the dramatic discovery made by Hubble, and confirmed by Einstein’s equations, that the Universe is not eternal, static, and unchanging.”[5]

Thus the ‘Big Bang’ model describes our universe as having a beginning a finite time ago.

As Alex Vilenkin, one of the world’s leading theoretical cosmologists, writes,

“It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. With the proof now in place, cosmologists can no longer hide behind the possibility of a past-eternal universe. There is no escape, they have to face the problem of a cosmic beginning.”[6]

Other models have been proposed to try and explain away the obvious metaphysical questions that arise from a finite universe, for instance P.C.W. Davies questions,

“What caused the big bang? . . . One might consider some supernatural force, some agency beyond space and time as being responsible for the big bang, or one might prefer to regard the big bang as an event without a cause. It seems to me that we don’t have too much choice. Either…something outside of the physical world…or…an event without a cause.”[7]

These models include the oscillating and vacuum fluctuation models.

These models however still have principles that necessitate a beginning to the universe, in other words they are non-infinitely extendable into the past.

Take the oscillating model as an example, this model maintains that if the gravitational pull of the mass of the universe was able to surmount the force of its expansion, then the expansion could be changed into a cosmic contraction or ‘Big Crunch’, and then into a new expansion, with the process continuing ad infinitum. However, there are a few issues with this model,

1. Firstly there is nothing available in modern physics that would allow a universe that is collapsing to spring back into a new expanding universe.

2. Secondly the mean mass density of the universe, derived from observational evidence, has shown that it is not enough to develop the required gravitational force to stop and reverse the expansion of the universe.

3. Thirdly, the second law of thermodynamics (as discussed above) implies the finitude of the universe. According to the oscillation model, the entropy is conserved from cycle to cycle of the various oscillations of expansion, crunch and expansion. This has the effect of generating larger and longer oscillations. Therefore the thermodynamic property of this model implies a beginning, as the universe that we exist in has not suffered a heat death, or thermodynamic equilibrium.

Since we have presented good evidence that the universe began to exist. We can now address the logically possible explanations the Qur’an presents as rationalisations of the origins of the universe.

Created or brought into being from nothing

We know the universe couldn’t have come out of nothing, because out of nothing, nothing comes!

This is an undeniable philosophical principle, as P. J. Zwart in his publication About Time explains,

“If there is anything we find inconceivable it is that something could arise from nothing.”[8]

A significant point to raise here is that nothingness should not be misconstrued as the nothingness that some physicists talk about.

The term nothingness in this context refers to the absence of anything physical, in other words there is no pre-existing ‘stuff’. In light of the beginning of the universe, there was absolutely nothing before it began to exist, which is why physicists have explained the universe as having a space-time boundary.

However, nothingness as defined by some physicists relates to the quantum vacuum. This is misleading because the quantum is something. In quantum theory the vacuum is a field of energy pervading the whole of the universe. In the word’s of John Polkinghorne, a philosopher of science, the quantum vacuum,

“…is not ‘nothing’; it is a structured and highly active entity.”[9]

So, in context of some of the physicists’ definition, the universe could not have come from absolutely nothing, as the quantum vacuum is something. It is a sea of fluctuating energy, which is still part of the cosmos and it did not pre-exist the universe. This point leads us nicely to the next possible explanation.

Self caused or self created

Philosophically, the universe couldn’t have created itself because that would imply a paradox. It would mean that something can exist and not exist at the same time. The logical ends of this explanation are tantamount to saying that your mother gave birth to herself!

Recently, the world renowned physicist, Stephen Hawking in his new book The Grand Design argues that the universe did self create due to the law of gravity,

“Because there is a law like gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing…”[10]

But his view on nothing, as previously mentioned, is not really nothingness but is space filled with the quantum vacuum, which is part of the universe. In essence Hawking is telling us that the universe can create itself, but it has to already exist for it to do that!

Concerning the law of gravity, well that is just a mathematical equation that describes nature. This law is part of the universe, which can also be described as a force of attraction between material objects. Therefore, how can this force exist before matter, in other words the universe?

To assert that the universe created itself would be absurd and self refuting, because in order for something to create itself it would need to exist before it existed!

Created or brought into being by something else that began to exist

This is not an adequate explanation for the origins of the universe. The universe could not have owed its existence to another state of temporal physical existence. To maintain such an explanation would be equivalent of expanding the boundaries of the universe, as all things which have a temporal beginning exist within the universe. Also, if temporal physical existence owes itself to another temporal physical existence ad infinitum, it doesn’t explain anything.

Rather it highlights the absurdity of an infinite regress, and that there has to be a beginning to the temporal physical states, which logically must be a non-physical state.

Take the following example into consideration. If the universe, U1, followed another temporal cause U2, and U2 followed another temporal cause U3, and this went on ad infinitum we wouldn’t have the universe U1 in the first place. Think about it this way, when does U1 come into being? Only after U2 has come into being. When does U2 come into being? Only after U3 has come into being. This same problem will continue even if we go to infinity. If U1 depended on its coming into being on a chain of infinite temporal causes, U1 would never exist. As the Islamic Philosopher and Scholar Dr. Jaafar Idris writes,

“There would be no series of actual causes, but only a series of non-existents, as Ibn Taymiyyah explained. The fact, however, is that there are existents around us; therefore, their ultimate cause must be something other than temporal causes.”[11]

Created or brought into being by a non-created or un-caused entity

Since something cannot come from nothing, and self creation is absurd, including the unreasonableness of the aforementioned explanation,

then the universe being created or brought into existence by an uncaused entity is the best explanation.

This concept is intuitive but also agrees with reality: whatever begins to exist has a cause or a creator.

This cause or creator must be uncaused due to the absurdity of an infinite regress, in other words an indefinite chain of causes. To illustrate this better, if the cause of the universe had a cause and that cause had a cause ad infinitum, then there wouldn’t be a universe to talk about in the first place (something we have already discussed above). For example, imagine if a Stock Trader on a trading floor at the Stock Exchange was not able to buy or sell his stocks or bonds before asking permission from the investor, and then this investor had to check with his, and this went on forever, would the Stock Trader every buy or sell his stocks or bonds? The answer is no. In similar light if we apply this to the universe we would have to posit an uncaused cause due to this rational necessity. The Qur’an confirms the uncreatedness of the creator, God,

“He neither begets nor is born.” Qur’an 112:3

The cause or creator for the universe must be a single cause for several reasons. An attractive argument to substantiate this claim includes the use of the rational principle called Occam’s razor. In philosophical terms the principle enjoins that we do not multiply entities beyond necessity. What this basically means is that we should stick to explanations that do not create more questions than it answers. In the context of the cause for the universe we have no evidence to claim multiplicity, in other words more than one. The Qur’an affirms the Oneness of the creator,

“Say: He is God, [who is] One.” Qur’an 112:1

However some philosophers and scientists claim: why doesn’t the cause be the universe itself? Why can’t the cause stop at the universe? Well, the problem with these claims is that they would imply that the universe created itself, which we have already discussed, is absurd. Additionally, we have good reasons to postulate a cause for the universe because the universe began to exist, and what begins to exist has a cause.

Our argument thus far allows us to conclude that this cause or creator must be non contingent meaning that its existence is dependent on nothing but itself. If it were contingent it would be one more effect in the chain of causes. The Qur’an verifies this,

“God is Independent of (all) creatures.” Qur’an 3:97

The cause or creator must also be transcendent, this means that the cause of the universe must exist outside of and apart from the universe. Since this being exists apart from the universe it must be non-physical or immaterial, if it was material then it would be part of the universe. This is confirmed in the Qur’an,

“There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing” Qur’an 42:11

This cause must have the power to create the universe, without this ability nothing could be created. The Qur’an testifies to God’s power,

“Certainly, God has power over all things.” Qur’an 2:20

This cause must have a will, because it wouldn’t be able to create the universe without one. What this means is that it must have a will so the power to create could be acted on. The Qur’an refers to God as having a will in many places, for instance,

“And God guides whom He wills to a straight path.” Qur’an 2:213

In summary, we have concluded what the Qur’an concluded over 1400 years ago, that a creator for the universe exists, that is one, has a will, is powerful, uncaused, immaterial and eternal.

Quantum Physics Undermines the Argument

A common contention to the central argument made in this essay is that the assumption – whatever begins to exist has a cause – is false. This is due to the apparent observations in the quantum vacuum that sub-atomic events behave spontaneously without any causes. In light of this common contention there are some good objections we can raise:

1. Firstly, the view that some events just happen, also known as indeterminism, for no reason at all is impossible to prove conclusively. Our inability to identify a cause does not necessarily mean that there is no cause.

2. Secondly, there are deterministic perspectives adopted by physicists to explain these so-called spontaneous sub-atomic events. For instance in the 1950s David Bohm showed there was an alternative formulation of quantum theory that is fully deterministic in its basic structure. [12] Commenting on Bohm’s theory Polkinghorne explains,

“In Bohm’s theory there are particles which are as unproblematically objective and deterministic in their behaviour as Sir Isaac Newton himself might have wished them to be. However, there is also a hidden wave, encoding information about the whole environment. It is not itself directly observable, but it influences in a subtle and highly sensitive manner the motions of the particles in just such a way as to induce the experimentally observed probabilistic effects.”[13]

What this means is that the apparent indeterminism present at the quantum level can be explained deterministically by this hidden wave that produces observed indeterministic or probabilistic effects.

However, since these two interpretations of quantum theory are empirically equivalent the choice between them will not be based on a scientific decision but on a metaphysical one. This leads to the philosophical objection to this contention.

3. Thirdly, from a philosophical perspective it is extremely difficult for these physicists (who adopt an indeterministic explanation of sub-atomic events) to justify their conclusions. This is because without the concept of causality we will not have the mental framework to understand our observations and experiences. In philosophical terms causality is a priori, which means knowledge we have independent of any experience. We know causality is true because we bring it to all our experience, rather than our experience bringing it to us. It is like wearing yellow-tinted glasses, everything looks yellow not because of anything out there in the world, but because of the glasses through which we are looking at everything. Take the following example into consideration; imagine you are looking at the White House in Washington DC. Your eyes may wonder to the door, across the pillars, then to the roof and finally over to the front lawn. Now contrast this to another experience, you are on the river Thames in London and you see a boat floating past. What dictates the order in which you had these experiences? When you looked at the White House you had a choice to see the door first and then the pillars and so on. However, with the boat you had no choice as the front of the boat was the first to appear.

The point to take here is that you would not have been able to make the distinction that some experiences are ordered by yourself and others are ordered independently, unless we had the concept of causality. In absence of causality our experience would be very different from the way it is. It would be a single sequence of experiences only: one thing after another. So to accept that sub-atomic events do not correspond with causality would be tantamount of denying our own experience!


Source
 
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Since the universe is a closed system
Once again you repeat this assumption, as did MohammadR at the start of this thread. We just can't say if this is true or not yet.

If the universe isn't a closed system, none of the rest of the argument matters (even if scientists/philosophers accepted it in all other aspects, which they do not).

There is no point in trying to prove a 'first mover' if it's not yet clear there is a 'first move'.
 
Once again you repeat this assumption, as did MohammadR at the start of this thread. We just can't say if this is true or not yet.

If the universe isn't a closed system, none of the rest of the argument matters (even if scientists/philosophers accepted it in all other aspects, which they do not).

There is no point in trying to prove a 'first mover' if it's not yet clear there is a 'first move'.

Is this your only disclaimer in this entire discussion? :P

Even if you wish to ignore this assumption (for whatever reason), we have discussed other options that are available as well.

Can you not appreciate that the universe itself is finite? The big bang model itself (which most atheists are comfortable with), supports the notion that the universe is finite.

And so, if the universe is finite - it had to have been created.

The article discusses all the possibilities really well, so Im not going to repeat these.


Perhaps read it again - you may gain more insight on the second round. (#sigh#)
 
I constantly feel you think I am trying to disprove God by science, which I am not.
Even if you wish to ignore this assumption (for whatever reason), we have discussed other options that are available as well.
You can't continue with the argument if the first premise is unproven, and it isn't. There are many alternative explanations under debate.

The universe we see may not be the only one, and we can't even see this one properly (either its limits or most of what's in it). Therefore, no one can definitively say 'the universe is finite'. (The Big Bang model can sit with a finite universe or with an infinite reality extending across multiple universes).

if you offer your above philosophical description as a theory, as one possibility, that's fine. But if you say it's the only possible explanation, that's not true.

You have to start your account with an "If...' .
 
In the interests of all atheists, who ascribe to the Big Bang Theory, but who may not really understand its core principles.

This comes off the 'Big Bang Philosophy' Website.



SUMMARY OF THE BIG BANG PHILOSOPHY



1st hypothesis:
THE UNIVERSE IS FINITE.


  • The universe, finite and intelligible in all its parts, cannot be infinite and unintelligible in its whole. It cannot have two completely different natures simultaneously. The infinite is a philosophical concept of the absolute that does not apply to the universe.
  • If the universe came into being around 12.000.000.000 years ago, it has not had the time to become infinite. Limited in time, it is also necessarily limited in space.
  • If the universe were infinite, it would present particularities so strange as to be absurd. For example, a human being having a finite number of atoms, in an infinite universe every one of us would have an infinite number of doubles living in exactly the same conditions as ourselves.

1st observation:
OUTSIDE THE UNIVERSE, DIMENSIONS DO NOT EXIST.

Since the universe is finite, the first question that occurs to the mind is this: What is there beyond? Indeed, the finite universe cannot be explained by itself, it needs an external cause. Let us wonder what stops at the limits of the universe. The Big Bang theory teaches us that space is a component of the universe and that it this which has been expanding during 12.000.000.000 years. Outside the universe there is no space, therefore there are no dimensions.



.......


While we agree that it cannot be absolutely proven, that the universe is a closed system (which is why I had originally kept away from this side of the discussion) - surely, the fact that the universe is finite (in terms of time), lends a hand to the fact that it is also finite in terms of space (i.e. a closed system),

Would make sense, right?


Regards
 
This comes off the 'Big Bang Philosophy' Website.
You certainly have a collection of weird and wonderful websites. I don't know anything about this one without hunting but plainly, it is not primarily scientific in purpose.

There are many other possible theories that do not involve a closed system universe - wikipedia lists the following popular theories:


  • Big Bang lattice model states that the Universe at the moment of the Big Bang consists of an infinite lattice of fermions which is smeared over the fundamental domain so it has both rotational, translational, and gauge symmetry. The symmetry is the largest symmetry possible and hence the lowest entropy of any state.[SUP][89][/SUP]

  • Brane cosmology models in which inflation is due to the movement of branes in string theory; the pre-Big Bang model; the ekpyrotic model, in which the Big Bang is the result of a collision between branes; and the cyclic model, a variant of the ekpyrotic model in which collisions occur periodically. In the latter model the Big Bang was preceded by a Big Crunch and the Universe endlessly cycles from one process to the other.[SUP][90][/SUP][SUP][91][/SUP][SUP][92][/SUP][SUP][93][/SUP]

  • Eternal inflation, in which universal inflation ends locally here and there in a random fashion, each end-point leading to a bubble universe expanding from its own big bang.[SUP][94][/SUP][SUP][95][/SUP]
Proposals in the last two categories see the Big Bang as an event in either a much larger and older Universe, or in a multiverse.
 
Actually, this is my nth time I'm countering atheists, and I can say it from experience that even when things are proven completely right to some, they just want to believe what was just proven right, but they don't want to believe in a creator. I've used science on multiple occasions, but science isn't the language which these people speak. Ultimately, their disbelief does not have a solid foundation.

I will try something new for now. What do atheists have to say about the way of life presented by our beloved Prophet Muhammad :saws:. No matter what the news channel and western media tries to portray Islam as, but all members of this forum just can't deny that Islam is a peaceful religion; especially the atheist who get special explanations of each commandment of Islam. How can one man alone put forward a way of life that guarantees justice, freedom, safety, and welfare of all citizens irrespective of their faith. No matter what people say about this, but let me tell you very clearly that in an Islamic society, non-Muslims are not treated like outcasts.

It is impossible for the human mind to put together a set of rules as perfect as laid out in Islam. If any person believes that men can create a constitution that can make the world "a better place" then all the failing governments and legislatures prove otherwise.
 
Ultimately, their disbelief does not have a solid foundation.

It has as much solid foundation as their disbelief in any other fantastic unfalsifiable claim.

Are invisible undedectable space aliens sitting beside you right now, watching you and taking notes? You can't disprove it. You have no solid foundation for disbelief in it. But do you worry about such a thing?

I will try something new for now. What do atheists have to say about the way of life presented by our beloved Prophet Muhammad :saws:. No matter what the news channel and western media tries to portray Islam as, but all members of this forum just can't deny that Islam is a peaceful religion; especially the atheist who get special explanations of each commandment of Islam. How can one man alone put forward a way of life that guarantees justice, freedom, safety, and welfare of all citizens irrespective of their faith. No matter what people say about this, but let me tell you very clearly that in an Islamic society, non-Muslims are not treated like outcasts.

I have no wish to live under somebody else's theocracy with rules based on their religion instead of sound secular reasoning. And you may view it as granting justice, freedom, safety and welfare for all, but that doesn't mean we'll all see it that way. Each of those terms are pretty subjective.
 
I've used science on multiple occasions, but science isn't the language which these people speak.
Then this is a perfect chance for you to show your skills again. If you, or Zaria, want to build a final proof starting with the premise that this universe is a closed system, you have to first refute all the Brane Cosmology and Eternal Inflation models.

Best of luck.
 
No one gave me an answer about justice in atheism.....why? I would really appreciate an answer.
 
No one gave me an answer about justice in atheism.....why? I would really appreciate an answer.
One of the things that tends to happen with threads like this is that they go too broad and diverge wildly off the original topic (which is a supposed proof of religion based in astrophysics). Your question, although interesting, could take us that way.

Also, there was a recent thread in Comparitive Religion called 'I don't understand this about the atheists' that did focus more on morality. Why not have a look at that, and then see if you still have questions?
 
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It has as much solid foundation as their disbelief in any other fantastic unfalsifiable claim.

Are invisible undedectable space aliens sitting beside you right now, watching you and taking notes? You can't disprove it. You have no solid foundation for disbelief in it. But do you worry about such a thing?



I have no wish to live under somebody else's theocracy with rules based on their religion instead of sound secular reasoning. And you may view it as granting justice, freedom, safety and welfare for all, but that doesn't mean we'll all see it that way. Each of those terms are pretty subjective.

i would guess you already live by the laws of the land.

the rest you carry and represent the best you can.. or not.

sure it may not be laws based on religion, even though your country may be predominantly of a single religion.

...but even then, if it actually represents, is comparable to or resembles what it claims to be... is another question.


my own example is a christian country as defined to the outside world.

but the laws of it seem fairly constructed and secular.

and the people all differ.


One of the things that tends to happen with threads like this is that they go too broad and diverge wildly off the original topic (which is a supposed proof of religion based in astrophysics). Your question, although interesting, could take us that way.

Also, there was a recent thread in Comparitive Religion called 'I don't understand this about the atheists' that did focus more on morality. Why not have a look at that, and then see if you still have questions?

i think thats the problem,

many things overlap and are connected.

ideas built upon ideas that link together and explain each other.


to have a narrow perspective is disrespect..

to the complexity of things. ignorance.


i mean we are talking about religion here.

and although none have the knowledge or understanding of the people that first knew the religion.

there is more than enough to guide people by (the quran in particular)


its purpose.

how can you have a book and not a teacher?



lol thats the whole god argument again isnt it?

and it leads to many differing perspectives.



i mean just generally speaking, i saw an athiests vs thiests debate on tv and i just thought how much can you get from a minute or two of questions and answers?

but these threads crop up often and we should get better at them with time.


Actually, this is my nth time I'm countering atheists, and I can say it from experience that even when things are proven completely right to some, they just want to believe what was just proven right, but they don't want to believe in a creator. I've used science on multiple occasions, but science isn't the language which these people speak. Ultimately, their disbelief does not have a solid foundation.

I will try something new for now. What do atheists have to say about the way of life presented by our beloved Prophet Muhammad :saws:. No matter what the news channel and western media tries to portray Islam as, but all members of this forum just can't deny that Islam is a peaceful religion; especially the atheist who get special explanations of each commandment of Islam. How can one man alone put forward a way of life that guarantees justice, freedom, safety, and welfare of all citizens irrespective of their faith. No matter what people say about this, but let me tell you very clearly that in an Islamic society, non-Muslims are not treated like outcasts.

It is impossible for the human mind to put together a set of rules as perfect as laid out in Islam. If any person believes that men can create a constitution that can make the world "a better place" then all the failing governments and legislatures prove otherwise.

thats the thing, you can have the best and most competent government in the world.

its the people that you have to worry about.



....but irl its mostly the government...or not.
 
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i would guess you already live by the laws of the land.

Indeed, but I see an important difference between a theocracy and a secular democracy. Most of the laws in my jurisdiction are fair, based on some sound reasoning, and I agree with them and support them. The few that are not fair or not to my liking I can work to change. The power, at least theoretically sits in the hands of the people, instead of sitting in the hands of those few claiming to speak for the divine.
 
Indeed, but I see an important difference between a theocracy and a secular democracy. Most of the laws in my jurisdiction are fair, based on some sound reasoning, and I agree with them and support them. The few that are not fair or not to my liking I can work to change. The power, at least theoretically sits in the hands of the people, instead of sitting in the hands of those few claiming to speak for the divine.


well it depends on the importance of the laws (that you would want to change).

i mean take the current example of gun control in america.

its role and function at conception and its changing role throughout its(america's) history.


its not a "god law" but you may well think it is, the way americans think/speak about it.



if you mean that islamic law is unfair..

as an argument based on current implementation of it. yes it is.

i mean not much is set in stone, so it really is up to those that claim to speak for the divine, how they interpret it and put it into practice.



i mean i am perfectly fine living under current government, the irony is the west allows for more personal freedom that any islamic country.
and is fairer in approach.

its not even an opinion.

i would not call for an islamic state where i live, just an muslim community that is best representing of its religion.
 
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