We are sorry

[sotahoro]

I agree writing about a time in which many people were killed brutally for their religion is disgusting BUT then writing about a Man whom Most Muslims consider and Love more than there very life is equally Disgusting.

Uhhhh.... :rollseyes I think killing people is still worse than writing insults about anybody or anything. I know muslims have great respect for their prophets, but the right to live should be respected too.

 

[HeiGou]

Why should all muslims apologise for the actions of a few.

If that is addressed to me, I think it is outrageous to suggest that all Muslims need to apologise for the actions of the few. I don't think I did. We each bear our own sins and no one else's.

My problem is one of approach. If a few radicals protest in a particular and offensive way, and given the bad atmosphere that exists already, if anyone else's protests are going to be effective they need to avoid appearing as if they are similar to the radicals.

This problem is not helped by discussions of what would have happened to those cartoonists if they were in Saudi Arabia. British Muslims do not need to apologise for that, but if they endorse it, it will not get them what they want.

 

[sotahoro]

I strongly beleive that US attacked Iraq not bcoz of Saddam, but the oil. A friend of mine went for a seminar(sort of) in USA 2 yrs back. She is not wearing hijab (seldom perform solah), so they didn't realise that there is a muslim malaysian in the group. One of the professor excitedly showed areas in Malaysia (via satelite) that have huge amount of oil. Will Malaysia be the next target? Nauzubillah

Now I'm quite confused. What was the seminar about, why did they talk about oil, what is the context of those satellite images? You think that the USA will attack Malaysia, because some professor in some university seminar talked about the oil there??? Hello...? :?

US have the money to buy the oil? Yup most probably they have, but what if Saddam don't want to sell it to them? Is there any possibility that was the reason of attacking Iraq?

They hate Saddam bcoz he is not practising Islam? Why on earth must they worry so much about Saddam faith and practise?

I'm not saying that they didn't have selfish interests (the oil) to remove Saddam. I'm saying that despite those selfish interests they did some good by putting Saddam away.
I don't know what the last sentence has to do with my post.

 

[HeiGou]

If you make a debate or a comment and its backed up by some sort of evidence or fact then this is fine ITS DEBATE. Freedom of Speech is Brilliant and when MOST Scholars do Dawah (talks about Islam) they do use this TOOL. Then there is JUST INSULT. And thats what MOST FORGET!

Well I wonder. Who decides what is or is not a fact?

Those cartoons were insulting. It was rude to draw them and publish them. But it would be hard to pass laws designed to stop that which did not also impede free speech. Any religious leader can claim that their religion demands belief in certain things. Christians used to be burnt for denying the Sun went around the Moon. So did Muslims.

The Australian State of Victoria passed a Racial Vilification law, as I may have mentioned. There is a good article on it by Amir Butler, the executive director of the Australian Muslim Public Affairs Committee, who lobbied for such laws. He has changed his mind now. The full article is at http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/0000000CAD01.htm

I recommend it. But think what happens if Britain goes down the same route, or if a law is passed such as you would demand, making it illegal to vilify any other religion. Are you prepared for Muslims to be jailed for saying there is only one God? For saying that Muhammed is His prophet? For denying that Krishna exists? What do you believe as a Muslim that is not offensive to someone else? What do you believe as a Muslim that you think you could prove to a jury of twelve Christians?

 

[sotahoro]

PLEASE TRY TO EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT WAS THE MEANING BEHIND THOSE CARTOONS! You will come to the conclusion that these CARTOONS WERE ONLY MADE FOR THE PURPOSE OF DEGRADING A WHOLE RELIGION.

If you did a google search you would learn the original context of the cartoons:
The drawings, including a depiction of Muhammad with a bomb inside or under his turban, were accompanied by an article on self-censorship and freedom of speech. Flemming Rose, the cultural editor of Jyllands-Posten, commissioned twelve cartoonists for the project and published the cartoons to highlight the difficulty experienced by Danish writer Kåre Bluitgen in finding artists to illustrate his children's book about Muhammad. Artists previously approached by Bluitgen were reportedly unwilling to work with him for fear of violent attacks by extremist Muslims. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy)

 

[sotahoro]

AFGHANISTAN
You have to bear in mind that America 3 weeks after the attack in Amercia were ready for War. This is no small scale War. How an earth did they get ready within 3 weeks!

I don't think it's a wonder, because they spend more money on military than others and they were practising for decades how to respond to a Soviet attack within minutes.
We also need to consider the intelligence information that they get. Sometimes intelligence allows you to respond to threats before any attack has taken place.
When considering this, 3 weeks doesn't sound so quick.
Just to make it clear, I'm not saying that the Americans don't have also selfish monetary interests in their military operations. They are a commercial nation so it's logical that they use their military power to pursuit their financial goals.

 

[sotahoro]

How can you say Afghanistan has benefited. Do you think the Mother that lost her son cares about THE FREE ELECTIONS. Do you think the Orphan whos parents died CARES ABOUT FREE ELECTIONS.

Maybe not. But many others were happy to see Taliban fall. Let's not forget how the Afghan people were suffering under the Taliban tyranny.
I think the world should've reacted already in the 1990s to the Taliban regime. And I suppose Saddam should've been captured already in the Gulf war.

 

[Sis786]

Uhhhh.... :rollseyes I think killing people is still worse than writing insults about anybody or anything. I know muslims have great respect for their prophets, but the right to live should be respected too.

No i agree completley I dont think one is better than the other though, My Love and im sure other Muslims will agree for the Prophet PBHU is on a very HIGH level.

But i have said before the Messgae on those Billboards on Friday werent my views and NOT many Muslms views!

 

[Sis786]

Maybe not. But many others were happy to see Taliban fall. Let's not forget how the Afghan people were suffering under the Taliban tyranny.
I think the world should've reacted already in the 1990s to the Taliban regime. And I suppose Saddam should've been captured already in the Gulf war.

Hmm i agree to an extent, The Taliban were in power for a long time and My cousin who is from Afghanistan and has lived there for almost 25years tells me that the Taliban were perfect before and Crime Rate was low and the Proper Islamic way of life was being observed. THEN like any other Rule and Power it became Corrupt and thats when the trouble started and people were getting greedy and vicious.

 

[Sis786]

Well I wonder. Who decides what is or is not a fact??

Thats a open debate, But like Science and Religion One agaisnt the other Both parties have a debate to make and this is a debate which has been on going. What im trying to say HAVE free speech YES make a debate BUT is CARTOONS INSULTING PEOPLE the way of doing this!

Those cartoons were insulting. It was rude to draw them and publish them. ?

Damn Right!

But it would be hard to pass laws designed to stop that which did not also impede free speech. Any religious leader can claim that their religion demands belief in certain things. Christians used to be burnt for denying the Sun went around the Moon. So did Muslims.

No this is also wrong, But as i mentioned there is a manner which must be observed. We are not animals and we live in a world of tolerance. If the Danish had said "We think Muhammed is a Terroist" and had some sort of ground to stand on then THIS would have been a different matter. Muslims would have debated and so on. BUT TO stoop to making pictures mocking someone takes me back 18 years to Nursery!

I recommend it. But think what happens if Britain goes down the same route, or if a law is passed such as you would demand, making it illegal to vilify any other religion. Are you prepared for Muslims to be jailed for saying there is only one God? For saying that Muhammed is His prophet? For denying that Krishna exists? What do you believe as a Muslim that is not offensive to someone else? What do you believe as a Muslim that you think you could prove to a jury of twelve Christians?

No not at all, We as Muslims have ALWAYS enjoyed FREE SPEACH! But do you really see a Muslim starting a debate off by PUBLISHING A PICTURE OF A RELIGIOUS LEADER OR PROPHET IN A DEGRADING MANNER! Instead we use words and its done in a diplomatic way! As for law all im saying is that THERE should be a boundry for FREE SPEACH too!

 

[HeiGou]

Thats a open debate, But like Science and Religion One agaisnt the other Both parties have a debate to make and this is a debate which has been on going. What im trying to say HAVE free speech YES make a debate BUT is CARTOONS INSULTING PEOPLE the way of doing this!

But what do you do if in the course of the debate a scientist says something that a small group of radicals finds offensive and immediately sparks riots in the Middle East? Those cartoons did not, from what I can see, have any useful contribution to make to anything.

No this is also wrong, But as i mentioned there is a manner which must be observed. We are not animals and we live in a world of tolerance. If the Danish had said "We think Muhammed is a Terroist" and had some sort of ground to stand on then THIS would have been a different matter. Muslims would have debated and so on. BUT TO stoop to making pictures mocking someone takes me back 18 years to Nursery!

You would not be offended if someone said Muhammed was a terrorist? I think that if anyone said so here they would be thrown off in two seconds. There are websites maintained by people who do say precisely that, I shall name no names, and they get floods of death threats. There is a very real radical fringe out there and they do not like this sort of thing.

No not at all, We as Muslims have ALWAYS enjoyed FREE SPEACH! But do you really see a Muslim starting a debate off by PUBLISHING A PICTURE OF A RELIGIOUS LEADER OR PROPHET IN A DEGRADING MANNER! Instead we use words and its done in a diplomatic way! As for law all im saying is that THERE should be a boundry for FREE SPEACH too!

I do not see, from what I understand of Islamic history and law, Muslims have ever enjoyed free speech. People were always killed for saying the wrong thing. Muslims do not make pictures. Do I see Muslims start debates off by destroying Temples? By denying that other Gods exist? By insulting believers of other religions? History books are full of these sorts of things - as they are for Christians of course.

I hear what you are saying, but I think that you will have a problem defining a fair law. Sure you could pass the "no insults for Muhammed" law, but if you passed a "no insults for all religions" law, Islam would become illegal.

 

[Sis786]

But what do you do if in the course of the debate a scientist says something that a small group of radicals finds offensive and immediately sparks riots in the Middle East? Those cartoons did not, from what I can see, have any useful contribution to make to anything.

Scientist HAVE always said things that have been offensive to Religious Groups i.e Charles Darwin. This is one of the hottest debates In Islam (Science vs Islam) and NO one has killed over this. Muslims enjoy debate and that is the truth. But like YOU said These Cartoons made no contribution. This was a tool USED TO see how FAR can we PUSH the Muslims. And some saw that SOME of us can be PUSHED tooo far!

You would not be offended if someone said Muhammed was a terrorist? I think that if anyone said so here they would be thrown off in two seconds. There are websites maintained by people who do say precisely that, I shall name no names, and they get floods of death threats. There is a very real radical fringe out there and they do not like this sort of thing..

No what i am saying is that if someone said this We would respond in the manner it was said. If someone came and SHOUTED abuse and this was part of is OBVSIOULY we would be offened. But if someone was to say "I think Muhammed was a terroist becuase of the Jihad he was involved with" Thats a fair question. They have heard that the Prophet PBHU has been involved with War and they come up with this theory. Muslims would respond by saying well No THIS is what actully happened! You see what im saying is that CARTOONS and INSULTS is not a way to start a DEBATE! We are adults here and i think we can behave in a human manner!

I do not see, from what I understand of Islamic history and law, Muslims have ever enjoyed free speech. People were always killed for saying the wrong thing. Muslims do not make pictures. Do I see Muslims start debates off by destroying Temples? By denying that other Gods exist? By insulting believers of other religions? History books are full of these sorts of things - as they are for Christians of course. .

Yes! But where do you see this now. Your talking of a time when people werent very educated. Modern day is different to then. DO you see NOW Muslims destroying CHURCH and TEMPLES nope! In fact we have Mosques on the same streets there are CHURCHES! We have to adapt the way we deal with situations with time!

I hear what you are saying, but I think that you will have a problem defining a fair law. Sure you could pass the "no insults for Muhammed" law, but if you passed a "no insults for all religions" law, Islam would become illegal.

Why have you come to that conclusion. We dont insult OTHER religions. ALL religions say "THERE IS ONE GOD" fair play to them. We might DEBATE this BUT not insult this.

 

[HeiGou]

Scientist HAVE always said things that have been offensive to Religious Groups i.e Charles Darwin. This is one of the hottest debates In Islam (Science vs Islam) and NO one has killed over this. Muslims enjoy debate and that is the truth. But like YOU said These Cartoons made no contribution. This was a tool USED TO see how FAR can we PUSH the Muslims. And some saw that SOME of us can be PUSHED tooo far!

People have been killed over astronomy. You think you have been pushed too far? I wish this is as bad as it is going to get, but clearly it is going to get worse.

No what i am saying is that if someone said this We would respond in the manner it was said. If someone came and SHOUTED abuse and this was part of is OBVSIOULY we would be offened. But if someone was to say "I think Muhammed was a terroist becuase of the Jihad he was involved with" Thats a fair question. They have heard that the Prophet PBHU has been involved with War and they come up with this theory. Muslims would respond by saying well No THIS is what actully happened! You see what im saying is that CARTOONS and INSULTS is not a way to start a DEBATE! We are adults here and i think we can behave in a human manner!

But you can go to websites (which I shall not name for fear of being banned!) and see that in fact that is not what happens. You call Muhammed anything bad and people wish nasty fates involving red hot pokers and the like. Really. You would be amazed at the hatred that follows people who say even the mildest things about Muhammed. We can only have a debate if both sides can speak freely without fear. That does not happen.

Yes! But where do you see this now. Your talking of a time when people werent very educated. Modern day is different to then. DO you see NOW Muslims destroying CHURCH and TEMPLES nope! In fact we have Mosques on the same streets there are CHURCHES! We have to adapt the way we deal with situations with time!

In the West you have mosques and churches on the same street. But the Taliban destroyed the Buddhas at Bamiyan. There have been a spate of Church burnings in Pakistan. There is on-going destruction in the Chittagong Hill Tracts of all non-Muslim places of worship. It does not take many foolish radicals to destroy a Church.

Why have you come to that conclusion. We dont insult OTHER religions. ALL religions say "THERE IS ONE GOD" fair play to them. We might DEBATE this BUT not insult this.

I do not believe all religions say there is one God. I think Hindus say there are one hundred million. Surely, as a Muslim, you believe the Christians have lied and are lying about what the Bible says?

 

[Sis786]

People have been killed over astronomy. You think you have been pushed too far? I wish this is as bad as it is going to get, but clearly it is going to get worse.

I am not talking abou myself. I luckly live in a Society where I can be involved in Peaceful Demonstrations! BUT i was talking about those that burnt buildings, those that put thier lives at risk and have died, those that made comments which led them to be prostecuted!.

But you can go to websites (which I shall not name for fear of being banned!) and see that in fact that is not what happens. You call Muhammed anything bad and people wish nasty fates involving red hot pokers and the like. Really. You would be amazed at the hatred that follows people who say even the mildest things about Muhammed. We can only have a debate if both sides can speak freely without fear. That does not happen.?

I agree with you BUT people must repect our feeling towards Muhammed PBHU. Like if we were talking about SOMEONES mother. Even though i was going to say something hurtful i should respect that the person i am speaking to has a personal and close realtionship to this women and therefore say what i want BUT with that concept in mind i would NOT be insulting and be considerate in my speech!

In the West you have mosques and churches on the same street. But the Taliban destroyed the Buddhas at Bamiyan. There have been a spate of Church burnings in Pakistan. There is on-going destruction in the Chittagong Hill Tracts of all non-Muslim places of worship. It does not take many foolish radicals to destroy a Church.?

After 9/11 Mosques here were getting atatcked and Mosques in Western Countries were being targeted, Im not saying that ALL Muslims are friendly BUT majority are. There a Hundreds of Churches in Pakistan, The Holy sacred place of the Sikhs is there. NO ONE has ever destroyed that. BUT you hear of ONE event through the media and YOU think thats the whole picture!

I do not believe all religions say there is one God. I think Hindus say there are one hundred million. Surely, as a Muslim, you believe the Christians have lied and are lying about what the Bible says?

Nope The Bible was correct BUT people have chnaged this. This is also the thought of many CHRISTIANS! I might not believe in the beliefs of OTHER religions BUT i dont disrespect them. THERE is a difference!

 

[Ken Nielsen]

I would like some input from a devoted Muslim to what I have replied to a friend on another forum:

First, here is the comment from the friend:

"Not being funny Ken, but I'm not sure it's Muhammad that's the terrorist"

Here is my reply:

"You are exactly right. I should have expanded to include the innocence of the majority of perfectly fine and peaceful Muslims. It's not the Muhammad that the peaceful Muslims worship that is the subject of the cartoons, but the Muhammad that has been created by the terrorist mindset. I've heard the term 'hijacked the religion' which I think is exactly what has been done, even chanting the name of 'Allah' as they behead their victims on video tape. I don't think for a second that peaceful Muslims would claim that as their religion for one second.

I also want to make clear that I distinguish like night and day between the god of the peaceful Muslims and the god that the terrorists say is behind their rage on humanity."


Am I correct in my answer? To what degree? After reading the genuinely wonderful posts by many here, I want to have a solid defense for the welcome I have received here when I am asked for proof of a difference between the 'rage to convert or kill the infidel' the world sees, and the Muslims here I know to be peaceful and happy and supportive of life for all regardless of persuasion.

 

[seeker]

Salaam

Why should all muslims apologise for the actions of a few.

Because they are defiling your religion. I don't think you should apologize as much as I think you should distance yourselves from these "few".

 

[Ghazi]

Because they are defiling your religion. I don't think you should apologize as much as I think you should distance yourselves from these "few".

Salaam

I agree muslims should stay away from people with extream view.

 

[mahdisoldier19]

Well yes. America criticised the French ruling. Although the only countries in the world to ban Islamic clothing are Muslim ones (Turkey for instance). France just banned it in schools. The wife of the British Prime Minister is arguing in the House of Lords this week that Shabina Begun has the right to wear the jilbalb - even there the school accepted she had the right to wear Islamic clothing, just not the full jilbalb.

See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4679058.stm



I do not know who SAS is, but if the Canadians do not want him he must have done something bad. They let everyone in. Clearly it is not right to be upset by this. Canada belongs to the Canadians. If I do not want someone in my house, it is my right to refuse entry. SAS, nor anyone else, does not have a right to enter my home just because they want to.



Yes of course they do. Find me a case in the UK or the US where a Muslim has been attacked on the streets and the police have refused to do anything.



Millions of Europeans took to the streets to protest the war in Iraq. Their payment was suicide bombs in London and Spain. For that matter Paris has been hit dozens of times and the French still supported the anti-War side. European pressure brought Israel to the negotiating table at Oslo and Madrid. I guess you can forget about that now. What thanks do Europeans get apart from bombs, riots and now threats?



Increasingly Europeans are saying the same thing. I think this is a bad idea. But think carefully about the implications of what you say. Think where this is likely to go.

If i were you i would keep your mouth shut on this topic because in USA. I KNOW SEVERAL MUSLIMS INCLUDING MYSELF WHO WERE BEATEN AND COPS DIDNT DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. They just said its a matter of justificatin for 9/11. WHAT JUSTIFICATION? I DIDNT DO ANYTHING. And i have relatives who have experienced the same thing in Europe so take it easy buddy.

 

[seeker]

If i were you i would keep your mouth shut on this topic because in USA. I KNOW SEVERAL MUSLIMS INCLUDING MYSELF WHO WERE BEATEN AND COPS DIDNT DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. They just said its a matter of justificatin for 9/11. WHAT JUSTIFICATION? I DIDNT DO ANYTHING. And i have relatives who have experienced the same thing in Europe so take it easy buddy.

Dude,

If that story is true, which I don't believe it is for a second, then you are a fool for not finding a lawyer that could sue the hell out of the cops and the city that did this.

 

[HeiGou]

I am not talking abou myself. I luckly live in a Society where I can be involved in Peaceful Demonstrations! BUT i was talking about those that burnt buildings, those that put thier lives at risk and have died, those that made comments which led them to be prostecuted!.

You live in a society where people are not jailed for cartoons any more. You do not think that is somehow related to your ability to protest peacefully?

I did not think you were talking about yourself. If you put religious people in charge of science or in charge of determining what scientists can or cannot say, they will decide that the Bible or the Quran or the Torah or whatever is a better source of Truth than experiments. And everywhere scientists have been forced to "respect" the feelings of the pious they have been persecuted. You can choose between respect for science or respect for religion. But I don't think you can choose both. Perhaps you can think of a society where that was true?

I agree with you BUT people must repect our feeling towards Muhammed PBHU. Like if we were talking about SOMEONES mother. Even though i was going to say something hurtful i should respect that the person i am speaking to has a personal and close realtionship to this women and therefore say what i want BUT with that concept in mind i would NOT be insulting and be considerate in my speech!

So you see the problem - I can have free speech as long as I do not say anything you find offensive. It is odd that you think British society should respect your mores, but you do not need to respect British ones. I agree it is rude to say bad things about peoples' mothers or about the religious figures. But society also needs to protect people who want to talk about peoples' mothers and religious figures.

After 9/11 Mosques here were getting atatcked and Mosques in Western Countries were being targeted, Im not saying that ALL Muslims are friendly BUT majority are. There a Hundreds of Churches in Pakistan, The Holy sacred place of the Sikhs is there. NO ONE has ever destroyed that. BUT you hear of ONE event through the media and YOU think thats the whole picture!

I think the holy place of the Sikhs is in Amristar in India. There are a lot fewer Churches now. There are vastly fewer Hindus and Sikhs. A few mosques were vandalised by criminals in the West. I do not just hear one event. I can read books - have you ever read the Chachnama? I can go, and have been, to cities in the Middle East. Can you name a city in the Middle East that is not full of Churches or Temples that are now mosques? How many mosques can you name that are now Churches?