Israel and the annihilation of Palestine

[*Hana*]

To anis_z24

But I have read the Quran! I would never criticize it without reading it. Well, in reality I have never read it cover to cover, but I have read the most interesting pieces and probably all in all over 50% of the whole.

So, I guess what you mean is that you never read the Qur'an. You think you can read 50% and understand and have full knowledge about Islam? :? Kind of explains your responses though.

I haven’t read more because for a non-Muslim it is really a very tiresome reading. I promise you I don’t say this in a spirit of disparaging it. If you take a non-Muslim, even an intellectually curious one, and you give it to him he will probably tire fairly soon especially because of the lack of a chronological or thematic plan. But I am digressing.

Not true. Even non-muslim, literary scholars marvel at the beauty of the writing and style of the Qur'an. As a non-muslim, and one who tried desperately to defend my faith as a Christian, I found the Qur'an very beautiful and I can only imagine how much more amazing it is in the original language of Arabic. Those that read something with a closed mind with no interest in learning may share your experience.

So, you see, there were people killed back then for thinking differently and there are people killed right know for thinking differently.

If you had a basic understanding of Islam then you would know that Islam forbids the killing of innocents and Muhammed, pbuh, and His army never killed anyone because they didn't embrace Islam. However, when the Muslims were attacked and during battle, many were given the opportunity to embrace Islam before they were killed. They were not killed for being a non-muslim, they were killed because they attacked and Muslims have a right, like anyone else, to protect themselves from aggressors. The difference is, they showed mercy and self control by offering Islam to their enemies, as Islam teaches. The same cannot be said about the crusaders who slaughtered everything in their path. Did the bible give them that right or were they acting on their own outside the teachings of Jesus, pbuh.?

For instance, at this very moment, Sunnis and Shias are killing each other for their differences in Iraq.

And, this is completely outside the teachings of Islam. A Muslim is a Muslim is a Muslim....we are not to divide into sects, and we are not to kill a muslim brother or sister, unless it is a punishment set out under the Law of Shariah. So, it is not for me to judge. Judgement is for Allah, swt, alone.

That is my problem. I see a cause and an effect. Of course I see much that was good in your prophet, but I also see things that were not so good. And those things are also having effects even now.

You try to blame the faults of man today on our Prophet, pbuh, because you believe He taught this behaviour? Show us, through authentic sources, where He taught the killing of innocents, where He told us to divide into sects and fight each other, where He didn't provide protection for non-muslims living in their community so they could pray as they wanted, where He endorsed the killing of women, children, animals, etc.

That is why I recommend my Muslim brothers (because we are all brothers under the same God) to review the spiritual choices they have made.

Some of us were fortunate to be born into Muslim families, while others were able to review the choice made for us by our parents with the desire to learn the truth. Because of that opportunity, Alhamdulillah, we embraced Islam. So, we would love to offer you the same recommendation. Review your choice with an open mind, use logic and be willing to learn, THEN decide. If nothing else, you will at least have a better understanding of the true teachings of Islam, inshallah.

Peace,
Hana

 

[Turin Turambar]

You say : "where He taught the killing of innocents, where He told us to divide into sects and fight each other, where He didn't provide protection for non-muslims living in their community so they could pray as they wanted"

I don't know really where to find those teachings, but they must be easy to find, because so many thousands of Muslims seem to have no problem finding them. How can I can argue with all those Muslims such as bin Laden or al-Zarqawi who have devoted so much time to study the Quran that they actually have decided to base their lives on it? I am sure they have read more than 50% of it...

By the way, I think you never answered my question about why did Paul lie? Did he get anything from it? If he got something it must be something that neither his admirers nor his detractors have found yet....

 

[abdul Majid]

Yea He Got Something, He Got The Trip To Hell , For Making The People Worship Jesus(pbh), In Other Words Making Partners In Worship With God.....which By The Way Is The only Sin Not To Be Forgiven !!

 

[*Hana*]

You say : "where He taught the killing of innocents, where He told us to divide into sects and fight each other, where He didn't provide protection for non-muslims living in their community so they could pray as they wanted"

I don't know really where to find those teachings, but they must be easy to find, because so many thousands of Muslims seem to have no problem finding them. How can I can argue with all those Muslims such as bin Laden or al-Zarqawi who have devoted so much time to study the Quran that they actually have decided to base their lives on it? I am sure they have read more than 50% of it...

If it's so easy to find them....find them and post them. I would do it for you...but they don't exist. How someone else chooses to twist words is not my problem. That happens in every faith in every country, it doesn't mean they are correct. Does David Koresh, the KKK, or Jim Jones sound familiar to you? Or are you going to tell me they were absolutely following the Biblical text? Also, are referring to Iraqi Muslims choosing to defend themselves from the illegal occupation in their country? You see, when an American or British soldier kills an Iraqi it's because they were terrorists or "casualties of war", when a Muslim tries defending his country, he's a terrorist. In Islam, we are permitted to defend ourselves from aggressors. The kidnapping and beheadings?? Simple....totally outside the teachings of Islam. The bombing of civilian buses? Not taught in Islam. Protecting ourselves, our land, our women, children, elderly, etc? NO QUESTION about that....ABSOLUTELY PERMITTED!!

As I've said many times, the religion of Islam is perfect, the followers are not. Follow the religion, not the followers.

I should also add, that "thousands" (as you suggest) out of 2.1 BILLION, hardly represents all of Islam.

By the way, I think you never answered my question about why did Paul lie? Did he get anything from it? If he got something it must be something that neither his admirers nor his detractors have found yet....

By the way, I think I did, you better go back a page and read my response.

Hana

 

[Turin Turambar]

abdul Majid,

Perhaps you didn't read the previous post that originated my question. I am not talking about what did Paul get in the eternal sense, because on that we surely disagree. I am talking about what did he get on THIS world that induced him to lie. Men lie for power, riches, women. Paul had none of those, any idea why he would lie?

 

[Turin Turambar]

Hana_Aku,

No really, you didn't answer. I just checked again. Was Paul trying to get riches through his lies? Was he trying to seduce women? Did he want to become king somewhere? On that point you say nothing, and it is interesting because it is kind of hard for me to believe that after meeting somebody like Jesus he would spend his whole life trying to distort his teachings. I see no reason for him to do that. Do you see one?

 

[*Hana*]

abdul Majid,

Perhaps you didn't read the previous post that originated my question. I am not talking about what did Paul get in the eternal sense, because on that we surely disagree. I am talking about what did he get on THIS world that induced him to lie. Men lie for power, riches, women. Paul had none of those, any idea why he would lie?

Yes, go back a page...the answer is there.

Hana

 

[Turin Turambar]

Why don't you paste THAT PART here where I can see clearly why did Paul decide to spend his whole life distorting the teachings of Jesus? It is certainly not what I would do if I were to met somebody like him. What did he get from it?

 

[*Hana*]

Hana_Aku,

No really, you didn't answer. I just checked again. Was Paul trying to get riches through his lies? Was he trying to seduce women? Did he want to become king somewhere? On that point you say nothing, and it is interesting because it is kind of hard for me to believe that after meeting somebody like Jesus he would spend his whole life trying to distort his teachings. I see no reason for him to do that. Do you see one?

You're right....he didn't have time to obtain those things because he was "busted" before he had the chance.

Meeting Jesus???? He was NEVER, EVER, EVER taught by Jesus, pbuh. He did spend a good part of his life trying to murder Jesus, however, but even then I don't think he got close enough to even hear Him speak.

Are you blind?? I showed you absolute clear, crystal clear contradictions between Jesus and Paul, showed you where Paul admitted he was dishonest and you still accept his writings over the teachings of Jesus. Dude....Paul wasn't even taught by the disciples of Jesus!!! He wanted a new following, as I told you in the previous post. The disciples of Jesus, pbuh, never trusted Paul....it was only through the intervention of Barnabas they relented.

Read what happened at the council of Nicea in 325....THAT is how present day Christianity came to be. I guarantee you, if anything like that even remotely happened after the life of Prophet Muhammed, pbuh, you would be here telling us Islam was man-made. No way would you accept the Nicean councils decisions if they were discussing Islam!

Yet, you base your whole salvation totally on the teachings and writings of Paul, and decisions made in Nicea while completely dismissing the words of Jesus, pbuh. I don't have to explain further WHY Paul did it. Maybe he was crazy?? Maybe he was jealous of Jesus, pbuh, I have no clue. I don't know his heart... only he and God know that....but I can show you clearly he DID do it. And I have shown you clearly....but you will choose to dismiss that as you dismiss the teachings of Jesus, pbuh. It's your salavation, not mine, but I really hope Allah, swt, chooses to guide you to the truth.

Peace,
Hana

 

[Turin Turambar]

You say:

"I don't have to explain further WHY Paul did it. Maybe he was crazy?? Maybe he was jealous of Jesus, pbuh, I have no clue"

You are right. You have no clue.

So we are left with this strange character who spend his whole life distorting the teachings of Jesus for no reason at all. He got beaten, imprisoned and finally martyred for no reason at all. He could have lived quietly in his own house his whole life but he decided to go through all kind of sufferings to spread a lie for no reason at all.

On the other hand, if somebody is accused of lying in order to get riches, power and women, we might be on to something....

Remember that one of the two was lying.

 

[cool_jannah]

The Islamic view of Jesus lies between two extremes. The Jews, who rejected Jesus as a Prophet of God, called him an impostor. The Christians on the other hand, consider him to be the son of God and worship him as such. Islam considers Jesus as one of the great Prophets of God and respects him as much as Abraham, Moses and Muhammad. This is in conformity with the Islamic point of view of the oneness of God, the oneness of Divine guidance, and the complimentary role of the subsequent messages of God’s messengers. The essence of Islam, which is the willing submission to the will of God, was revealed to Adam who passed it on to his children. All following revelations to Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and finally Muhammad were in conformity with that message in addition to some elaboration to define the relation between Man and God, man and man, man and his environment, and to live according to God’s instructions. Thus, any contradiction among revealed religions is viewed by Islam as a man-made element introduced into these religions. The position of Jesus in the three major religions: Judaism, Christianity and Islam, should not be an exception.
Although the Qur’an does not present a detailed life-account of Jesus, it highlights the important aspects of his birth, his mission, his ascension to heaven and passes judgements on the Christian beliefs concerning him.

 

[*Hana*]

You say:

"I don't have to explain further WHY Paul did it. Maybe he was crazy?? Maybe he was jealous of Jesus, pbuh, I have no clue"

You are right. You have no clue.

So we are left with this strange character who spend his whole life distorting the teachings of Jesus for no reason at all. He got beaten, imprisoned and finally martyred for no reason at all. He could have lived quietly in his own house his whole life but he decided to go through all kind of sufferings to spread a lie for no reason at all.

On the other hand, if somebody is accused of lying in order to get riches, power and women, we might be on to something....

Who said it was for no reason???? Obviously he had his own reasons. Why does a man rape a woman, why do people harm children, why do any of us do anything?? You don't know what his reasons were any more than I do...what we DO know...as a FACT and as was proven....is that he LIED. Plain and simple.

Yeah, he got beaten....that can happen to liars and cheats. You use the word martyred, I would say murdered. Living quietly wouldn't have given him followers of his distorted religion though, would it?? Quite the opposite, whatever his reasons, he was successful in spreading HIS word.....you and millions of others follow his false doctrine.

Remember that one of the two was lying.

Do you read anything anyone posts or do just type to read your own words?? You are trying to say Muhammed, pbuh, lied to gain riches, power and women. You have been told MORE than once, with proofs that was not the case. But, you are obsessed with defending a proven liar. Why is that?? Does the truth hurt that much? Look for yourself...it's there and it's in your own bible.

Hana

 

[Turin Turambar]

I am certainly looking for the truth but I am generally cautious with books and that includes both the Bible and the Quran. They can be interpreted in so many ways.

That is why I use my reason and my reason tells me that there is always an explanation for the conduct of people. If you are doing something you are doing it for a reason. You want to get something, good or bad.

Usually the reason for the conduct of an historical character is easy to determine. What motivated Napoleon? Ambition. What motivated Rockefeller? Greed. What motivated Mother Teresa? Mercy

Is Paul the only great person in history who acted without a motivation? Are there other characters in history whose motivation is perhaps a subject of controversy?

It is time for both of us to stop arguing and start thinking.

 

[*Hana*]

Is Paul the only great person in history who acted without a motivation? Are there other characters in history whose motivation is perhaps a subject of controversy?

No one said he didn't have motivation. He tells you he did what he did to get more followers to "his" gospel. Just because he wasn't successful in his lifetime doesn't mean he wasn't motivated to try.

All I can suggest to you is that you don't try to figure out the motives of other people....you can never know that. Read books with logic, search for the truth. If it doesn't make sense, dig deeper, ask questions, etc. Follow a religion based on it's teachings, not on its followers. Even the disciples of Jesus, pbuh, were not perfect and neither were the companions of Muhammed, pbuh.

I spent over 3 years learning about Islam before I said the Shahadah. Believe me, this was not something I took lightly. And I asked question upon question upon question. I researched for hours every day and read more books than the local library stocks! (That's an exaggeration) :giggling:

I finally decided to stop trying to defend my faith and to learn the truth. Quite frankly, there were always things I questioned about Christianity that never made sense to me. I tried to understand and I asked priests, nuns, elders, knowledgeable christians....to this day I have never received a logical explanation. More often than not, I got in trouble for asking and was told "Just have faith". Well, I'm sorry, but that's not enough. When my salvation was dependant on this....I needed something clear. The fact is....it's not clear because Jesus, pbuh, and the prophets before Him, never taught what Paul did. God, Himself said, "I am not the author of confusion." And yet, no one can logically explain the tri-union. Actually, I should also add, that I continue to learn, both biblical and Qur'anic text. Learning doesn't stop.

I sincerely hope you do continue your search, but I do hope you do so with an open mind. You have to enter into your search as if you don't know anything and read things exactly as they are written. Don't twist them to make them fit to what you believe to be true. It's difficult, but gets easier over time.

I wish the best for you and will pray Allah, swt, guides you.

Oh, I also apologize if I sounded argumentive, it wasn't my intent. The written word can be taken in different tones than the reality.

Peace
Hana

 

[miseshayek]

Why don't you paste THAT PART here where I can see clearly why did Paul decide to spend his whole life distorting the teachings of Jesus? It is certainly not what I would do if I were to met somebody like him. What did he get from it?

So, by this logic if we don't see someone getting sex or money for doing something we should assume he is a good guy out to do good? How about Bin Laden? He was very rich to start with. Presumably, given his status, he was not sex starved or at least had opportunities... So why is he spending his life in a crusade against the infidels when, by doing so, he is only making his own life more difficult and, indeed, is now in a position of having "everyone" hunt him down. Maybe this guy is a saint by the "logic" you've been employing, you think?

And what WAS Paul doing? Well, wasn't he trying to wrest control of a movement that was already of some size from its previous leaders? Is power or influence over other people, and having them adopt your ideas over those of others, to be discounted as a personal motive that might be followed by someone who isn't a saint? As I recall, Jim Jones found such power and influence to be very motivating, even if he himself ended up drinking kool aid along with everyone else.... Indeed, what are you doing spending time trying to convert Muslims to Christianity?

You keep repeating that either Paul or Muhammad were "lying." Where does that come from? Isn't it possible that one or both of them were mistaken or that both were lying? Why discount those alternatives? What about this "Muhammad was a bad guy" line do you think adds credance to the believability of your position?

 

[Turin Turambar]

miseshayek,

I can answer your points but I am surprised that you are so angry at me. You are Jewish, so you should be kind of neutral between Paul and Muhammad. After all, you believe that both were lying. Or at least that they were wrong. Is there anything I am missing in your position? Do you have any reason to prefer Muhammad over Paul?

 

[Turin Turambar]

Hana_Aku,

Everything is fine! You did sound argumentative, but I did too. Isn't that the whole idea in this forum? It was never my intention to offend gratuitously and I am sure you didn't have that intention either. But I will believe in Muhammad the day you believe in Paul...

Just as a personal favor, would you please tell me the one reason that made you prefer Islam over Christianity? Please keep it short. Sometimes Muslims throw in too many things in the same post and I feel kind of overwhelmed...

 

[*Hana*]

Peace:

Actually, no, the purpose is not to argue as it leads nowhere. Open, sincere dialogue where people can learn from each other is the way it should work.

But I will believe in Muhammad the day you believe in Paul

Ohhhh, but I DO believe in Paul. I believe he is the true founder of today's Christianity. So, when can we arrange for you to say your shahadah?

would you please tell me the one reason that made you prefer Islam over Christianity? Please keep it short. Sometimes Muslims throw in too many things in the same post and I feel kind of overwhelmed

L O G I C

short enough?

Peace,
Hana

 

[Turin Turambar]

Come on, why don't you give me that one reason? Otherwise I will believe that it was for no reason at all. Perhaps you just wanted to make angry your Christian parents....

 

[*Hana*]

Come on, why don't you give me that one reason? Otherwise I will believe that it was for no reason at all. Perhaps you just wanted to make angry your Christian parents....

I told you my ONE reason. LOGIC! ok, maybe you didn't understand what I meant.

I mean Islam is LOGICAL, it makes sense. None of this unexplained 3 in 1 existance of God and it agrees with all the teachings of the Prophets before it. "THE LORD THY GOD IS ONE GOD"

loool, no as far as my parents go, my father died an athiest, and my mom and I were devout Christians at one time. My mom, and the rest of my family are still Christian and love me very much, as I do them. My mom, Christian or not, is someone that I am not only proud to call "mom" but she is someone that is an honour to know. I do have an aunt who I'm sure follows me around squirting me with Holy Water though. not really, j/k

Soooo, NO, there was no other motive for me to revert. I reverted because, through logic, I believe with my whole heart and soul, Islam is the truth. Alhamdulillah!!

Peace
Hana