"Why has Allah forbidden eating Pork?"
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renak
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Re: Why is pork forbidden?
It was from a Quran sent to me years ago from a muslim group headquartered in Saudi Arabia.
It was from a Quran sent to me years ago from a muslim group headquartered in Saudi Arabia.
songinwind
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Re: Why is pork forbidden?
""Right, so why do we have people trying to justify the prohibition on pork on the grounds that it's supposed to be unhealthy?"""
Would you eat the things that pigs,,and might add--Dogs eat, like their own filth:hmm: :heated: ....That should tell you thats rather unhealthy....and if God says it, that its true
..I know I for one am not about to eat something that eats its own, and others filth:heated:
""Right, so why do we have people trying to justify the prohibition on pork on the grounds that it's supposed to be unhealthy?"""
Would you eat the things that pigs,,and might add--Dogs eat, like their own filth:hmm: :heated: ....That should tell you thats rather unhealthy....and if God says it, that its true
..I know I for one am not about to eat something that eats its own, and others filth:heated:
renak
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Re: Why is pork forbidden?
I'm not trying to be mean, but do you eat chicken? They eat their own filth, the filth of other chickens, and about anything else they can find.
""Right, so why do we have people trying to justify the prohibition on pork on the grounds that it's supposed to be unhealthy?"""
Would you eat the things that pigs,,and might add--Dogs eat, like their own filth:hmm: :heated: ....That should tell you thats rather unhealthy....and if God says it, that its true
I'm not trying to be mean, but do you eat chicken? They eat their own filth, the filth of other chickens, and about anything else they can find.
songinwind
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songinwind
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Re: Why is pork forbidden?
Bad effects of pork consumption
Pig's bodies contain many toxins, worms and latent diseases (Ed: That's what cooking is for. And other animals have diseases like BSE, Salmonella et al). Although some of these infestations are harbored in other animals, modern veterinarians say that pigs are far more predisposed to these illnesses than other animals (Ed: Where do these people get their scientific information?). This could be because pigs like to scavenge and will eat any kind of food, including dead insects, worms (Ed: Chickens eat worms), rotting carcasses, excreta (including their own), garbage, and other pigs (Ed: Rabbits are like this too, eating their own excrement and other unsavoury 'foods'. Anyhow, modern pigs are raised in hygenic conditions).
Influenza (flu) is one of the most famous illnesses which pigs share with humans. This illness is harbored in the lungs of pigs during the summer months and tends to affect pigs and humans in the cooler months. Sausage contains bits of pigs' lungs, so those who eat pork sausage tend to suffer more during epidemics of influenza (Ed: That's what cooking is for. And sausages contain many things. Beef sausages contain spinal cord, brain tissue etc. And let's not even talk about Hamburgers). Pig meat contains excessive quantities of histamine and imidazole compounds, which can lead to itching and inflammation; growth hormone, which promotes inflammation and growth; sulphur-containing mesenchymal mucus, which leads to swelling and deposits of mucus in tendons and cartilage, resulting in arthritis, rheumatism, etc (Ed: ???). Sulphur helps cause firm human tendons and ligaments to be replaced by the pig's soft mesenchymal tissues (Ed: !!! This sounds like total hogwash. Replacement of your tissues by the pigs? This has already become worse than Creation 'Science'), and degeneration of human cartilage. Eating pork can also lead to gallstones and obesity, probably due to its high cholesterol and saturated fat content (Ed: Consuming palm oil leads to Coronary Heart Disease). The pig is the main carrier of the taenia solium worm, which is found it its flesh. These tapeworms are found in human intestines with greater frequency in nations where pigs are eaten. This type of tapeworm can pass through the intestines and affect many other organs, and is incurable once it reaches beyond a certain stage. One in six people in the US and Canada has trichinosis from eating trichina worms which are found in pork. Many people have no symptoms to warn them of this, and when they do, they resemble symptoms of many other illnesses. These worms are not noticed during meat inspections, nor are they killed by salting or smoking. Few people cook the meat long enough to kill the trichinae. The rat (another scavenger) also harbors this disease. There are dozens of other worms, germs, diseases and bacteria which are commonly found in pigs, many of which are specific to the pig, or found in greater frequency in pigs. (Ed: Modern pigs are not as sickly as ancient ones)
Pigs are biologically similar to humans, and their meat is said to taste similar to human flesh (Ed: By who? Has the writer tasted both himself? Anyway, why does that makes it wrong to eat pig flesh? For all we know, human meat could be DELICIOUS, and the only thing stopping us from eating human meat is the fact that it's taboo to eat one of your own kind. So, eating something that TASTES like human meat is perfectly fine. Vegetarian meat is similar in composition to real meat [proteins] and it tastes similar to real meat, does it make it any more wrong for a vegan to eat vegetarian meat?). Pigs have been used for dissection in biology labs due to the similarity between their organs and human organs (Ed: So have frogs and rabbits). People with insulin-dependent diabetes usually inject themselves with pig insulin (Ed: I sympathise with Muslim diabetics. Actually, porcine insulin isn't used anymore!). If you pour Coke (yes, the soda) on a slab of pork, and wait a little while, you will see worms crawl out of it (Ed: ???. This is really astoundingly grossly wrong. Maybe the pork used for the aforementioned experiment was left to rot for several days first).
:heated: :heated:
Bad effects of pork consumption
Pig's bodies contain many toxins, worms and latent diseases (Ed: That's what cooking is for. And other animals have diseases like BSE, Salmonella et al). Although some of these infestations are harbored in other animals, modern veterinarians say that pigs are far more predisposed to these illnesses than other animals (Ed: Where do these people get their scientific information?). This could be because pigs like to scavenge and will eat any kind of food, including dead insects, worms (Ed: Chickens eat worms), rotting carcasses, excreta (including their own), garbage, and other pigs (Ed: Rabbits are like this too, eating their own excrement and other unsavoury 'foods'. Anyhow, modern pigs are raised in hygenic conditions).
Influenza (flu) is one of the most famous illnesses which pigs share with humans. This illness is harbored in the lungs of pigs during the summer months and tends to affect pigs and humans in the cooler months. Sausage contains bits of pigs' lungs, so those who eat pork sausage tend to suffer more during epidemics of influenza (Ed: That's what cooking is for. And sausages contain many things. Beef sausages contain spinal cord, brain tissue etc. And let's not even talk about Hamburgers). Pig meat contains excessive quantities of histamine and imidazole compounds, which can lead to itching and inflammation; growth hormone, which promotes inflammation and growth; sulphur-containing mesenchymal mucus, which leads to swelling and deposits of mucus in tendons and cartilage, resulting in arthritis, rheumatism, etc (Ed: ???). Sulphur helps cause firm human tendons and ligaments to be replaced by the pig's soft mesenchymal tissues (Ed: !!! This sounds like total hogwash. Replacement of your tissues by the pigs? This has already become worse than Creation 'Science'), and degeneration of human cartilage. Eating pork can also lead to gallstones and obesity, probably due to its high cholesterol and saturated fat content (Ed: Consuming palm oil leads to Coronary Heart Disease). The pig is the main carrier of the taenia solium worm, which is found it its flesh. These tapeworms are found in human intestines with greater frequency in nations where pigs are eaten. This type of tapeworm can pass through the intestines and affect many other organs, and is incurable once it reaches beyond a certain stage. One in six people in the US and Canada has trichinosis from eating trichina worms which are found in pork. Many people have no symptoms to warn them of this, and when they do, they resemble symptoms of many other illnesses. These worms are not noticed during meat inspections, nor are they killed by salting or smoking. Few people cook the meat long enough to kill the trichinae. The rat (another scavenger) also harbors this disease. There are dozens of other worms, germs, diseases and bacteria which are commonly found in pigs, many of which are specific to the pig, or found in greater frequency in pigs. (Ed: Modern pigs are not as sickly as ancient ones)
Pigs are biologically similar to humans, and their meat is said to taste similar to human flesh (Ed: By who? Has the writer tasted both himself? Anyway, why does that makes it wrong to eat pig flesh? For all we know, human meat could be DELICIOUS, and the only thing stopping us from eating human meat is the fact that it's taboo to eat one of your own kind. So, eating something that TASTES like human meat is perfectly fine. Vegetarian meat is similar in composition to real meat [proteins] and it tastes similar to real meat, does it make it any more wrong for a vegan to eat vegetarian meat?). Pigs have been used for dissection in biology labs due to the similarity between their organs and human organs (Ed: So have frogs and rabbits). People with insulin-dependent diabetes usually inject themselves with pig insulin (Ed: I sympathise with Muslim diabetics. Actually, porcine insulin isn't used anymore!). If you pour Coke (yes, the soda) on a slab of pork, and wait a little while, you will see worms crawl out of it (Ed: ???. This is really astoundingly grossly wrong. Maybe the pork used for the aforementioned experiment was left to rot for several days first).
:heated: :heated:
renak
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Re: Why is pork forbidden?
:giggling: Well...did you know that many fish eat their own offspring and/or scavengers (eating any filth they can find)? :?
No..but eat lots of fish.....vegtables...fruit...
:giggling: Well...did you know that many fish eat their own offspring and/or scavengers (eating any filth they can find)? :?
songinwind
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Re: Why is pork forbidden?
:giggling: :giggling:
I guess if we look hard enough we can find lots of things....But I "follow" God's words, and not sit around and laugh , as he does know all...far more than any human..He did create us ..so "smile on" peace to u
:giggling: :giggling:
I guess if we look hard enough we can find lots of things....But I "follow" God's words, and not sit around and laugh , as he does know all...far more than any human..He did create us
..so "smile on" peace to u
songinwind
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Re: Why is pork forbidden?
Is Pork Forbidden to Muslims Only?
The Jews and Christians are also forbidden from eating pork. Here is a quote from the Old Testament to that effect: "And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud (Ed: Isn't chewing the cud disgusting and shouldn't that make Cows Haram?), it is unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase." Deuteronomy 14:8 Many Christians believe that this verse was directed only at the Jews (Ed: Most. And how many Christians do not eat pork?).
:rollseyes
Is Pork Forbidden to Muslims Only?
The Jews and Christians are also forbidden from eating pork. Here is a quote from the Old Testament to that effect: "And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud (Ed: Isn't chewing the cud disgusting and shouldn't that make Cows Haram?), it is unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase." Deuteronomy 14:8 Many Christians believe that this verse was directed only at the Jews (Ed: Most. And how many Christians do not eat pork?).
:rollseyes
Umu 'Isa
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Re: Why is pork forbidden?
Why is the eating of pork forbidden in Islam?
Answer..
The fact that consumption of pork is prohibited in Islam is well known. The following points explain various aspects of this prohibition:
1. Pork prohibited in Qur'ân
The Qur'ân prohibits the consumption of pork in no less than 4 different places. It is prohibited in 2:173, 5:3, 6:145 and 16:115.
"Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah." [Al-Qur'ân 5:3]
The above verses of the Holy Qur'ân are sufficient to satisfy a Muslim as to why pork is forbidden.
2. Pork prohibited in the Bible
The Christian is likely to be convinced by his religious scriptures. The Bible prohibits the consumption of pork, in the book of Leviticus
"And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be cloven footed, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you". "Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcass shall ye not touch, they are unclean to you." [Leviticus 11:7-8]
Pork is also prohibited in the Bible in the book of Deuteronomy
"And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you. Ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcass." [Deuteronomy 14:8]
A similar prohibition is repeated in the Bible in the book of Isaiah chapter 65 verse 2-5.
3. Consumption of pork causes several diseases
The other non-Muslims and atheists will agree only if convinced through reason, logic and science. Eating of pork can cause no less than seventy different types of diseases. A person can have various helminthes like roundworm, pinworm, hookworm, etc. One of the most dangerous is Taenia Solium, which is in lay man’s terminology called tapeworm. It harbours in the intestine and is very long. Its ova i.e. eggs, enter the blood stream and can reach almost all the organs of the body. If it enters the brain it can cause memory loss. If it enters the heart it can cause heart attack, if it enters the eye it can cause blindness, if it enters the liver it can cause liver damage. It can damage almost all the organs of the body.
Another dangerous helminthes is Trichura Tichurasis. A common misconception about pork is that if it is cooked well, these ova die. In a research project undertaken in America, it was found that out of twenty-four people suffering from Trichura Tichurasis, twenty two had cooked the pork very well. This indicates that the ova present in the pork do not die under normal cooking temperature.
4. Pork has fat building material
Pork has very little muscle building material and contains excess of fat. This fat gets deposited in the vessels and can cause hypertension and heart attack. It is not surprising that over 50% of Americans suffer from hypertension.
5. Pig is one of the filthiest animals on earth
The pig is one of the filthiest animals on earth. It lives and thrives on muck, faeces and dirt. It is the best scavenger that I know that God has produced. In the villages they don’t have modern toilets and the villagers excrete in the open air. Very often excreta is cleared by pigs.
Some may argue that in advanced countries like Australia, pigs are bred in very clean and hygienic conditions. Even in these hygienic conditions the pigs are kept together in sties. No matter how hard you try to keep them clean they are filthy by nature. They eat and enjoy their own as well as their neighbour’s excreta.
6. Pig is the most shameless animal
The pig is the most shameless animal on the face of the earth. It is the only animal that invites its friends to have sex with its mate. In America, most people consume pork. Many times after dance parties, they have swapping of wives; i.e. many say "you sleep with my wife and I will sleep with your wife." If you eat pigs then you behave like pigs. We Indians look upon America to be very advanced and sophisticated. Whatever they do, we follow after a few years. According to an article in Island magazine, this practice of swapping wives has become common in the affluent circles of Bombay.
source
Why is the eating of pork forbidden in Islam?
Answer..
The fact that consumption of pork is prohibited in Islam is well known. The following points explain various aspects of this prohibition:
1. Pork prohibited in Qur'ân
The Qur'ân prohibits the consumption of pork in no less than 4 different places. It is prohibited in 2:173, 5:3, 6:145 and 16:115.
"Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah." [Al-Qur'ân 5:3]
The above verses of the Holy Qur'ân are sufficient to satisfy a Muslim as to why pork is forbidden.
2. Pork prohibited in the Bible
The Christian is likely to be convinced by his religious scriptures. The Bible prohibits the consumption of pork, in the book of Leviticus
"And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be cloven footed, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you". "Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcass shall ye not touch, they are unclean to you." [Leviticus 11:7-8]
Pork is also prohibited in the Bible in the book of Deuteronomy
"And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you. Ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcass." [Deuteronomy 14:8]
A similar prohibition is repeated in the Bible in the book of Isaiah chapter 65 verse 2-5.
3. Consumption of pork causes several diseases
The other non-Muslims and atheists will agree only if convinced through reason, logic and science. Eating of pork can cause no less than seventy different types of diseases. A person can have various helminthes like roundworm, pinworm, hookworm, etc. One of the most dangerous is Taenia Solium, which is in lay man’s terminology called tapeworm. It harbours in the intestine and is very long. Its ova i.e. eggs, enter the blood stream and can reach almost all the organs of the body. If it enters the brain it can cause memory loss. If it enters the heart it can cause heart attack, if it enters the eye it can cause blindness, if it enters the liver it can cause liver damage. It can damage almost all the organs of the body.
Another dangerous helminthes is Trichura Tichurasis. A common misconception about pork is that if it is cooked well, these ova die. In a research project undertaken in America, it was found that out of twenty-four people suffering from Trichura Tichurasis, twenty two had cooked the pork very well. This indicates that the ova present in the pork do not die under normal cooking temperature.
4. Pork has fat building material
Pork has very little muscle building material and contains excess of fat. This fat gets deposited in the vessels and can cause hypertension and heart attack. It is not surprising that over 50% of Americans suffer from hypertension.
5. Pig is one of the filthiest animals on earth
The pig is one of the filthiest animals on earth. It lives and thrives on muck, faeces and dirt. It is the best scavenger that I know that God has produced. In the villages they don’t have modern toilets and the villagers excrete in the open air. Very often excreta is cleared by pigs.
Some may argue that in advanced countries like Australia, pigs are bred in very clean and hygienic conditions. Even in these hygienic conditions the pigs are kept together in sties. No matter how hard you try to keep them clean they are filthy by nature. They eat and enjoy their own as well as their neighbour’s excreta.
6. Pig is the most shameless animal
The pig is the most shameless animal on the face of the earth. It is the only animal that invites its friends to have sex with its mate. In America, most people consume pork. Many times after dance parties, they have swapping of wives; i.e. many say "you sleep with my wife and I will sleep with your wife." If you eat pigs then you behave like pigs. We Indians look upon America to be very advanced and sophisticated. Whatever they do, we follow after a few years. According to an article in Island magazine, this practice of swapping wives has become common in the affluent circles of Bombay.
source
Re: Why is pork forbidden?
Really? What is the right translation then? Why is it so many Muslim scholars failed to notice this was a mistranslation until you (or Jamal Badawi I assume) did?
See above.
Really? Can all the hudd punishments be gotten around so easily?
See above.
This is a logical falacy called the Excluded Middle. Just because someone has mentioned one extreme policy, it does not make sense to insist that the only alternative is another extreme. The West used to have very low abortion rates and still did not flog adulterers.
And the reference is wrong - married adulterers should be stoned surely?
Really? What is the right translation then? Why is it so many Muslim scholars failed to notice this was a mistranslation until you (or Jamal Badawi I assume) did?
See above.
Really? Can all the hudd punishments be gotten around so easily?
See above.
This is a logical falacy called the Excluded Middle. Just because someone has mentioned one extreme policy, it does not make sense to insist that the only alternative is another extreme. The West used to have very low abortion rates and still did not flog adulterers.
And the reference is wrong - married adulterers should be stoned surely?
j4763
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Re: Why is pork forbidden?
Pork is not the only meat that carries disease. What about beef, it can carry BSE (and tape worms), and chicken i'm sure you've herd something about "bird flu". All animals can carry some sort of disease so i guess eating fruit/veg is the only way? But then we were born with caine teeth for consumption of meat.
Regard to wrong translations (wife beating, stoning...etc), can anyone provide the correct translations?
Pork is not the only meat that carries disease. What about beef, it can carry BSE (and tape worms), and chicken i'm sure you've herd something about "bird flu". All animals can carry some sort of disease so i guess eating fruit/veg is the only way? But then we were born with caine teeth for consumption of meat.
Regard to wrong translations (wife beating, stoning...etc), can anyone provide the correct translations?
Chuck
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Re: Why is pork forbidden?
1. Same word has been translated as "part" for Moses (pbuh) parting the sea.
2. Take any old comprehensive arabic dictionary (before Jamal Badawi or I were born) and you will see that the word used in that verse also means part, seperate, or leave.
3. Separate or leave the wife makes more sense with the flow since it comes right after separating from bed.
4. Prophet (pbuh) said: "It is better for a leader to make a mistake in forgiving than to make a mistake in punishing." (Al-Tirmidhi) In other words, scholars (or any other person) should consider lenient translation deducing anything from Quran if it has multiple meaning.
Regarding making non-muslim friends there is another verse that clarifies this issue:
Furthermore Quran states:
I'll quote some passages:
2. In an argument someone brought a point that the word used in the Quran for adulterers is applicable to both married and non-married.
3. Hadiths doesn't make it clear when the stoning punishment was used: when Muslims were following Mosaic Law in this matter or after the revelation of the verse on adultery.
4. Prophet (pbuh) said that if a ruler/leader/judge makes a mistake than he should make it in forgiveness rather than punishment.
In the light of above points I'm not in favor of stoning married adulterers.
You should ask them who failed to notice this, I can't give an answer on their behalf. However:HeiGou said:
1. Same word has been translated as "part" for Moses (pbuh) parting the sea.
2. Take any old comprehensive arabic dictionary (before Jamal Badawi or I were born) and you will see that the word used in that verse also means part, seperate, or leave.
3. Separate or leave the wife makes more sense with the flow since it comes right after separating from bed.
4. Prophet (pbuh) said: "It is better for a leader to make a mistake in forgiving than to make a mistake in punishing." (Al-Tirmidhi) In other words, scholars (or any other person) should consider lenient translation deducing anything from Quran if it has multiple meaning.
This word has almost universally been translated here as "beating". Such a translation is supported by some passages in the Qur'an where the word does mean smiting or striking (2:60, 61, 73, 8:12, 50, 7:160 etc). But in many other Qur'anic passages there are other meanings of the word. Thus the word can mean constructing or coining something such as coining mathal or similitude (14:24, 16:75-76, 30:28, 36:27 etc). The word is also used to separate two things. In 20:77 it is used of the splitting of the sea to make a way for the children of Israel to escape and in 57:13 it is used of making a wall to separate the two groups of people in the hereafter. Leaving, withdrawing or taking away is the meaning in 43:5. In 13:17 the word is used of separating truth and falsehood. The word can also mean campaigning or traveling in the land, e.g., for the purpose of trade (2:273, 73:20).
In the present context, the Qur'anic usage allows two meanings:
1) separating from the wives in the sense of living apart from them,
2) beating them.
3) The Arabic language also allows a third meaning: have sex with them.
The first meaning fits the context well, for some kind of physical separation is a very understandable step after suspension of sexual relations does not work. The second meaning is more natural from a linguistic point of view and has the support of a strong consensus among the commentators. The third meaning has no support in the Qur'anic usage.
See full article for more information: http://www.islamicperspectives.com/Quran-4-34.htm
In the present context, the Qur'anic usage allows two meanings:
1) separating from the wives in the sense of living apart from them,
2) beating them.
3) The Arabic language also allows a third meaning: have sex with them.
The first meaning fits the context well, for some kind of physical separation is a very understandable step after suspension of sexual relations does not work. The second meaning is more natural from a linguistic point of view and has the support of a strong consensus among the commentators. The third meaning has no support in the Qur'anic usage.
See full article for more information: http://www.islamicperspectives.com/Quran-4-34.htm
The proper translation is 'protectors' since it was reveled at the time when muslims were looking towards Jews in Madina to help them fight against the Makkans.HeiGou said:
Regarding making non-muslim friends there is another verse that clarifies this issue:
"Allah forbids you not, With regard to those who Fight you not for (your) Faith Nor drive you out Of your homes, From dealing kindly and justly With them: For Allah loveth Those who are just. (The Noble Quran, 60:8)"
The above verse clearly leaves out those non-muslims who don't fight us.Furthermore Quran states:
Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book [Jews and Christians] are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous. (The Noble Quran, 3:113-114)
Why would Allah stop us from making friends whom Allah ranks with the righteous?Here is an article that explains how Islamic law works: http://www.islamic-study.org/Islamic Penal Law.htmHeiGou said:
I'll quote some passages:
Let us illustrate the psychological effect of the severity of punishment on people’s behavior. According to Islamic law, the maximum penalty for professional theft is cutting hands. It should be understood that this policy does not mean that for every theft there is a hand to be cut. The judge exercises other forms of penalties such as imprisonments or fines.
...............................
Flexibility and Ambiguity
Relaxing or stiffening a penalty for a particular violation is an integral part of the Islamic Law. Penalty in the Islamic Law is dependent on the nature of the crime. Factors such as severity of damage, the background of the violator, his or her intent and repeatability, play a major role in determining the extent of the penalty.
Furthermore, The Prophet said: “Avoid (the maximum) penalty (hudud) on the account of ambiguity (shubuhat).” Since the punishment is mainly used as deterrent, if the intent of the law in a particular case is fulfilled, the judge then has the discretion to apply a lower sentence and avoid the maximum penalty.
...............................
Flexibility and Ambiguity
Relaxing or stiffening a penalty for a particular violation is an integral part of the Islamic Law. Penalty in the Islamic Law is dependent on the nature of the crime. Factors such as severity of damage, the background of the violator, his or her intent and repeatability, play a major role in determining the extent of the penalty.
Furthermore, The Prophet said: “Avoid (the maximum) penalty (hudud) on the account of ambiguity (shubuhat).” Since the punishment is mainly used as deterrent, if the intent of the law in a particular case is fulfilled, the judge then has the discretion to apply a lower sentence and avoid the maximum penalty.
I don't have the time to check the demographics, social issues, and abortion rate of every country, but estimated current global monthly average 1,225,000 abortions is quiet high (source). And muslims countries doesn't have abortion rates, but here is something interesting:HeiGou said:
Because Muslims are not as promiscuous as the rest of the human race they have largely avoided AIDS. While there is some danger that most of a generation in some sub-Sahara countries will die of AIDS, the rate of infection in Muslim countries is typically less than one in a thousand adults.
Source: http://www.geocities.com/richleebruce/b/islam.html
We have managed to relatively avoid AIDS; perhaps we are doing something right.Source: http://www.geocities.com/richleebruce/b/islam.html
1. Quran doesn't state stoning for married adulterers.HeiGou said:
2. In an argument someone brought a point that the word used in the Quran for adulterers is applicable to both married and non-married.
3. Hadiths doesn't make it clear when the stoning punishment was used: when Muslims were following Mosaic Law in this matter or after the revelation of the verse on adultery.
4. Prophet (pbuh) said that if a ruler/leader/judge makes a mistake than he should make it in forgiveness rather than punishment.
In the light of above points I'm not in favor of stoning married adulterers.
Last edited:
Re: Why is pork forbidden?
Actually I can just take a few recent translations,
But if I was uninterested in doing that, I could look at your source, which says
So it is almost universally translated as beating. The main meaning is to strike. The secondary one is simply extensions of that (you "strike" coins in English based on the old fashioned method of producing them by hitting a disk with a hammer). Once it is used to separate the sea (perhaps Moses hit it with his staff?). It is also used for a few other words that do not immediately seem to have a lot to do with beating. But the main meaning seems clear to me.
I think that beating makes more sence - trying reasoning, trying emotional coldness, then beat. But it is probably a matter of opinion. Your sources admits to "almost universally".
I would support that as a concept if I were a Muslim but it is not my problem because I am not.
Right. So it is not a mistranslation, it is a poor choice of possible translations?
So you are saying it has been abrogated?
I admit something has gone wrong with the West now, but I said that the West used to have low abortion rates without flogging. Excluded middle remember?
Perhaps. Circumcision does seem to protect people from AIDS whether Muslim or not. However are you sure about those AIDS figures?
If you look at http://www.unaids.org/en/default.asp it looks as if North Africa and the Middle East have the same rate of AIDS infection as Western Europe.
I have never been able to find a reference to it but I have been told it was abrogated but it still applies so I guess it is in spirit.
Actually I can just take a few recent translations,
004.034
YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
PICKTHAL: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
SHAKIR: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.
YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
PICKTHAL: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
SHAKIR: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.
But if I was uninterested in doing that, I could look at your source, which says
So it is almost universally translated as beating. The main meaning is to strike. The secondary one is simply extensions of that (you "strike" coins in English based on the old fashioned method of producing them by hitting a disk with a hammer). Once it is used to separate the sea (perhaps Moses hit it with his staff?). It is also used for a few other words that do not immediately seem to have a lot to do with beating. But the main meaning seems clear to me.
I think that beating makes more sence - trying reasoning, trying emotional coldness, then beat. But it is probably a matter of opinion. Your sources admits to "almost universally".
I would support that as a concept if I were a Muslim but it is not my problem because I am not.
Right. So it is not a mistranslation, it is a poor choice of possible translations?
So you are saying it has been abrogated?
I admit something has gone wrong with the West now, but I said that the West used to have low abortion rates without flogging. Excluded middle remember?
Perhaps. Circumcision does seem to protect people from AIDS whether Muslim or not. However are you sure about those AIDS figures?
If you look at http://www.unaids.org/en/default.asp it looks as if North Africa and the Middle East have the same rate of AIDS infection as Western Europe.
I have never been able to find a reference to it but I have been told it was abrogated but it still applies so I guess it is in spirit.
Rou
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Re: Why is pork forbidden?
I would be a happier man lol...
Within the quran there are rules that are optional or ones that come into force at diffrent times for example in time of war...
However there are some clear cut rules pork is forbidden out of so many creatures that are allowed it is one that has been forbidden for gods divine ruling...
Out of the rules as you say if you were going to ease up on some this would not be one of them....
Where as much is allowed and one is forbidden yet this rule is broken?? does not really make sense...
I i offered you all the gold in the world but forbid you one coin why touch the coin?
It is a betrayl of god through the basic of human nature...greed...
there are tests that is what this life is made of...
And the rules are clear...
I would be a happier man lol...
Within the quran there are rules that are optional or ones that come into force at diffrent times for example in time of war...
However there are some clear cut rules pork is forbidden out of so many creatures that are allowed it is one that has been forbidden for gods divine ruling...
Out of the rules as you say if you were going to ease up on some this would not be one of them....
Where as much is allowed and one is forbidden yet this rule is broken?? does not really make sense...
I i offered you all the gold in the world but forbid you one coin why touch the coin?
It is a betrayl of god through the basic of human nature...greed...
there are tests that is what this life is made of...
And the rules are clear...
Rou
Elite Member
- Messages
- 432
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- 47
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Re: Why is pork forbidden?
There is no diffrence of opinions when it comes to such clear rules within the quran...it is the extra belifs that are discussed not what is within the quran...
Misintrepretation can be a cause of debate but not an overall diffrence in opinion within sects...
Sunni and shia debate over what came after the quran majority of the time not the quran...
There is no diffrence of opinions when it comes to such clear rules within the quran...it is the extra belifs that are discussed not what is within the quran...
Misintrepretation can be a cause of debate but not an overall diffrence in opinion within sects...
Sunni and shia debate over what came after the quran majority of the time not the quran...
Rou
Elite Member
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- Islam
Re: Why is pork forbidden?
For one that is not the exact translation its not quite that simple that is on the basis that adultry has been commited...
In a world where any man could do anything to his wife wether it be beat her for fun out of anger or madness a ruling was stated to adhear to a law..
try to understand the time and the life of that time... and perhaps you may see this law as a clamp on the hands of many men instead of a freedom of a man to beat his wife...
This is not correct... the word was unbeleivers and who is to say what that catogery that holds.. apart from that to read a sentence will not explain
a book...
Many adhear to such verses yet they forget the message of the book? you question such verses yet i hear no one honour those where it says to protect jews and chritsians to get along as fllow beleivers in the one god?
"009.006
And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not."
003.064
"O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).
I see no one mention the calls for all who beleive in the one god to be at peace with each other??
003.067
YUSUFALI: Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to Allah's (Which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah.
A common call..yet does it fall on deaf ears...
?? this is purely your opinion i am a seeker of peace however justice seems not served by light handedness we have seen what the world has become by allowing those who abuse our laws to get away with it time and time again...
Rapists who destroy peoples lives are given 6 years when the victim is given life..i hear no cries to protect the innocent as much as i hear the cries for the wrong doers.... i understand this to be a matter of opinion however to be light handed has not worked...i ask not for the cutting of hands on every call of a thief neither does the quran there must be witness's and a court ruling i am no enemy of justice...
I have no need to explain this verse i will merely show u the true translation -
005.033
The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
Such a dishonour should be punished in this way a betrayl of the heart..when one is true to you and the other betrays not only there patners heart but the holy binding that has taken place with allah to witness...
A law that is permissed upon both sex's Male and female...
024.002
The adulterer and the adulteress, scourge ye each one of them (with) a hundred stripes. And let not pity for the twain withhold you from obedience to Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of believers witness their punishment.
You think allah allows muslims to hurt innocents? to beat women?
He makes it our duty to protect the honour of women in particular..
024.004 And those who accuse honourable women but bring not four witnesses, scourge them (with) eighty stripes and never (afterward) accept their testimony - They indeed are evil-doers -
Life is not simple nor is it always peacful The message is to live with honour and harm not the innocent...
The message is justice...
I hope this helped...
For one that is not the exact translation its not quite that simple that is on the basis that adultry has been commited...
In a world where any man could do anything to his wife wether it be beat her for fun out of anger or madness a ruling was stated to adhear to a law..
try to understand the time and the life of that time... and perhaps you may see this law as a clamp on the hands of many men instead of a freedom of a man to beat his wife...
This is not correct... the word was unbeleivers and who is to say what that catogery that holds.. apart from that to read a sentence will not explain
a book...
Many adhear to such verses yet they forget the message of the book? you question such verses yet i hear no one honour those where it says to protect jews and chritsians to get along as fllow beleivers in the one god?
"009.006
And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not."
003.064
"O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).
I see no one mention the calls for all who beleive in the one god to be at peace with each other??
003.067
YUSUFALI: Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to Allah's (Which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah.
A common call..yet does it fall on deaf ears...
?? this is purely your opinion i am a seeker of peace however justice seems not served by light handedness we have seen what the world has become by allowing those who abuse our laws to get away with it time and time again...
Rapists who destroy peoples lives are given 6 years when the victim is given life..i hear no cries to protect the innocent as much as i hear the cries for the wrong doers.... i understand this to be a matter of opinion however to be light handed has not worked...i ask not for the cutting of hands on every call of a thief neither does the quran there must be witness's and a court ruling i am no enemy of justice...
I have no need to explain this verse i will merely show u the true translation -
005.033
The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
Such a dishonour should be punished in this way a betrayl of the heart..when one is true to you and the other betrays not only there patners heart but the holy binding that has taken place with allah to witness...
A law that is permissed upon both sex's Male and female...
024.002
The adulterer and the adulteress, scourge ye each one of them (with) a hundred stripes. And let not pity for the twain withhold you from obedience to Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of believers witness their punishment.
You think allah allows muslims to hurt innocents? to beat women?
He makes it our duty to protect the honour of women in particular..
024.004 And those who accuse honourable women but bring not four witnesses, scourge them (with) eighty stripes and never (afterward) accept their testimony - They indeed are evil-doers -
Life is not simple nor is it always peacful The message is to live with honour and harm not the innocent...
The message is justice...
I hope this helped...
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