Did Jesus (p) Deny Being God?

Al-Mu'min said:
Ha. Why is it a ''claim'' when it's true? If it wasn't, then why do you keep asking her questions?
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I do not know if it is true or not as I am not a close personal friend of Ms. Islamgyal, but it is clear she does not display a great deal of knowledge about the theology of any Church I know of. So of course I am interested so that I can work out what she used to believe and hence understand her comments on Christianity.

Just because a person converts doesn't mean that she/he doesn't know what they are doing. This is a life decision man.
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I never suggested it did and what is more it has nothing to do with anything I have said. Besides, even if she didn't know where she was coming from, it does not mean that she does not know where she is and where she is going. To be a good Muslim you do not need, surely, to know much about Christian thought, but to have a sensible relationship with God and a belief in the Quran?

How do you explain the thousands of other people who reverted from Christianity? How do you explain the Priests an Preachers of Christianity that converted? Didn't they also "understand" Christianity? Let's see why you think they converted.
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I have never once made a link between conversions and understanding Christianity.

Lets see who is the "poor poster" now.
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By all means. Let me know when you reply to something I have written as opposed to something you think I have written.
 
PrIM3 said:
you'll have to realize that Matthew 1:12-16 doesn't state that it was only thirteen generations...
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12
After the Babylonian exile, Jechoniah became the father of Shealtiel, Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel,
13
Zerubbabel the father of Abiud. Abiud became the father of Eliakim, Eliakim the father of Azor,
14
Azor the father of Zadok. Zadok became the father of Achim, Achim the father of Eliud,
15
Eliud the father of Eleazar. Eleazar became the father of Matthan, Matthan the father of Jacob,
16
Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary. Of her was born Jesus who is called the Messiah.

13 generations brother. You count.
 
Al-Mu'min said:
12
After the Babylonian exile, Jechoniah became the father of Shealtiel, Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel,
13
Zerubbabel the father of Abiud. Abiud became the father of Eliakim, Eliakim the father of Azor,
14
Azor the father of Zadok. Zadok became the father of Achim, Achim the father of Eliud,
15
Eliud the father of Eleazar. Eleazar became the father of Matthan, Matthan the father of Jacob,
16
Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary. Of her was born Jesus who is called the Messiah.

13 generations brother. You count.
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uhhh right but it doesn't state that it was only 13.. now does it?
it only shows 13... kind of like if I were to show you 4 cds and then I go to another person and I show him 2 cds... I still have 4 just because I didn't show the other guy all my cds...
 
Al-Mu'min, are you sure you aren't just scaning my posts? Are you reading them thorughly?

Thanks
Nimrod
 
Brother HeiGou,

Didn't you accuse me of being a poor poster when I said you where implying that the sister didn't know much about her former faith? Then in your last post you said and admitted that you thought
she didn't. Yet you said in an earlier post that i was just making a "claim". So I was right after all.

But it's good to know that you are just interested in knowing her religious knowledge background. Forgive me if i thought you where implying that she didn't know what she was doing.

I read in one of your posts stating that, most women who revert do so just because they meet a good Muslim man to marry. First of all this isn't true. Secondly, I can assure you that Islamgyal didn't need to convert just because a Muslim man asked her to do so. If I'm wrong, she'll correct me.

Peace.
 
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Read the bilble where a rich young man comes to Jesus and calls him "Good teacher". Jesus replies "Why do you call me good? Do not call me good for none is good but god himself" if he were God, would he say so?
 
Nimrod,

May peace and blessings be upon you. I have tried to respond to everything you asked. Please restate what i have missed, and me and the brothers and sisters will respond to the best of our capabilities.

Peace again.
 
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Al-Mu'min said:
Didn't you accuse me of being a poor poster when I said you where implying that the sister didn't know much about her former faith?
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Well no. I said "the poor previous poster" as in "the poor unfortunate poster". You are not, I assure you, a poor poster. It was just unfortunate that you should be accused of saying something when in fact you had said the exact opposite.

I read in one of your posts stating that, most women who revert do so just because they meet a good Muslim man to marry. First of all this isn't true. Secondly, I can assure you that Islamgyal didn't need to convert just because a Muslim man asked her to do so. If I'm wrong, she'll correct me.
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Are you sure it isn't true? How many of the reverts here are female and how many met a Muslim man first? Four out of every five converts are women I am told. I do not doubt that Islam does not demand women to convert.
 
the end of Surat Imran says it all....

the Quran explains it perfectly

and yes Jesus never claimed he was a God

the prophets do not blaspheme, and thats why they are prophets

because of the truth of who they are
 
al-fateh said:
the end of Surat Imran says it all....

the Quran explains it perfectly

and yes Jesus never claimed he was a God

the prophets do not blaspheme, and thats why they are prophets

because of the truth of who they are
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can you say that before abraham " I Am " or no? what is your interpretation of that word?
 
PrIM3,
May peace and blessings be upon you brother. Concerning "Before Abraham was I am" John 8:58. Here is an explanation by Shiekh Ahmed Deedat.

Jesus saying "I am":

The sections of this article are:

1- Jesus saying "I am".
2- So why did the Jews try to kill Jesus for saying "I am"? Wasn't he claiming to be the Creator of the Universe?
3- More Rebuttals by www.jewsforjudaism.org.

1- Jesus saying "I am":

From Sheikh Ahmed Deedat's work; may Allah Almighty rest his soul and grant him Paradise (Ameen):

It is claimed that Jesus used the words, "I am", and since these same words were used by God to describe Himself to the people in the Old Testament, Jesus was claiming to be God. John 8:58, is presented to back this claim. In the verse, Jesus says: " Before Abraham was I am. (John 8:58)" Now, if Jesus existed before Abraham did, that might be a remarkable thing, but does that prove that he was God?

How many people existed before Abraham? The Bible presents Jeremiah as being a prophet before he was conceived in his mother's womb; "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations. (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 1:5)" Yet no one says that his pre-human existence qualifies him for deity. In Exodus chapter 3, God allegedly says: "I am what I am." Long before the time of Jesus, there existed a Greek translation of the Old Testament called the Septuagint. The key word, "I am," in Exodus which is used by Christians to prove the deity of Jesus is translated as "HO ON." However, when Jesus uses the word in John 8:58 the Greek of the "I am," is EGO EIMI. If Jesus wanted to tell the Jews that he was claiming to be God he should have at least remained consistent in the use of words or the whole point is lost. How many people in that age would have said "I am," in answer to questions in everyday life. Billions. Are they all gods? Of course not !.


2- So why did the Jews try to kill Jesus for saying "I am"? Wasn't he claiming to be the Creator of the Universe?

The answer to this question is in this verse:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 23:37)"

The Jews are known to kill the Prophets of GOD Almighty. That's a given fact that was confirmed by Jesus peace be upon him in Matthew 23:37. Jesus doesn't have to claim to be GOD Almighty to trigger them to kill him. Him being a Prophet of GOD Almighty or claiming to be a Prophet from GOD Almighty -- that alone is enough for the Jews to attempt to kill him. Jesus did say before that he was GOD Almighty's Prophet/Messenger:

" "My food," said Jesus, "is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work. (From the NIV Bible, John 4:34)"

" "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. (From the NIV Bible, John 5:24)"

"So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. (From the NIV Bible, John 8:28)"

" "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. (From the NIV Bible, John 14:28)"

"Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. "He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me. Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward. (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 10:39-41)"

"And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. "He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me." (From the NIV Bible, Luke 10:15-16)"

There are a lot more verses like the ones above that I can provide that clearly prove that (1) GOD Almighty is above Jesus; and (2) Jesus is GOD Almighty's Messenger. But I believe that the above verses are sufficient enough to prove the point. So when Jesus said "I am" (different from GOD Almighty's Hebrew "I am" in the Old Testament as shown above in the first section), he meant to say that he was GOD Almighty's Messenger, and not GOD Almighty Himself.


3- More Rebuttals by www.jewsforjudaism.org:

From:http://www.jewsforjudaism.com/web/faq/faq128.html:

Question: Is the author of the Gospel of John claiming that Jesus is part of a tri-unity god when he has Jesus say, "before Abraham came into being, I am" (John 8:58)?

Answer: John 8:56-58 states: "'Abraham your father rejoiced to see my day; and he saw it, and was glad.' The Jews therefore said to him: 'You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?' Jesus said to them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham came into being, I am.'"

Trinitarians argue that the Greek words ego eimi ("I am"), allegedly spoken by Jesus (John 8:58), indicate that Jesus is God (see also John 8:24, 28). They arrive at their contention by connecting the phrase "I am" with the words spoken by God in Exodus 3:14 and often translated: "I AM THAT I AM . . . . Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: I AM has sent me to you." However, the literal and proper translation of this verse is: I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE. . . . Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: I WILL BE has sent me to you."

Since the author of the Gospel of John utilized the Greek Septuagint translation of the Bible in his writings, it cannot be assumed that John's Jesus is referring to the words in Exodus 3:14. Although Jesus actually spoke in Hebrew or Aramaic, not Greek, John recorded Jesus' alleged words in Greek. Ego eimi ("I am"), used by John's Jesus, is not the same as ho on ("The Being, The One Who Is"), which is used in the Septuagint's rendering of Exodus 3:14: "And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and He said, Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: THE BEING has sent me to you." Even though ho on appears in the Gospel of John, it is never used as a title or name or exclusively as a reference to Jesus. In the Book of Revelation, also credited to John by Christian commentators, ho on appears five times (Revelation 1:4, 8; 4:8; 11:17; 16:5). Significantly, in each instance, it is used as a title or designation applied to God, not Jesus. Thus: "John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is [ho on] and who was and who is to come; and from the seven spirits who are before His throne" (Revelation 1:4). That this verse refers to God and not Jesus is seen from the following verse, which continues the greeting by now including Jesus as one of those sending greetings. Hence, John says, in verses 4 and 5, that greetings are sent by God, the seven spirits, and Jesus.

In verse 8, John writes: "'I am the Alpha and the Omega,' says the Lord God, 'who is [ho on] and who was and who is to come, the Almighty'" (Revelation 1:8). This verse also speaks of God, not Jesus. In Revelation 4:8, ho on is applied to "the Lord God, the Almighty," not Jesus, who, as the "Lamb" referred to in Revelation 5:6-7, comes to God, who is sitting on His throne. That they are two separate entities is seen from Revelation 5:13: "To the one sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." In addition, ho on is applied to the "Lord God, the Almighty," not Jesus, in Revelation 11:17 and Revelation 16:5. That ho on in Revelation 16:5 refers to God and not Jesus can be seen from verse 7, which, referring to the subject of verses 5 and 6, states: "And I heard the altar saying: 'Yes, Lord God, the Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments.'" These are further indications that ho on and ego eimi are not used as synonymous terms by John. In John 8:56-58, John is expounding his belief that Jesus had a prehuman existence as an angelic being in heaven. John's Jesus is proclaiming here that this prehuman existence began before Abraham was born: "Before Abraham came into being, I am." The fact of the matter is that the text does not at all indicate how long Jesus supposedly lived before Abraham. In no honest way can John's statement be taken to identify Jesus as God.

I hope that helps.
Peace and blessings.
 
Brother HeiGou,
May peace and blessings be upon you.

HeiGou said:
Well no. I said "the poor previous poster" as in "the poor unfortunate poster". You are not, I assure you, a poor poster. It was just unfortunate that you should be accused of saying something when in fact you had said the exact opposite.
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Sorry if I misunderstood and said something you didn't mean.

Are you sure it isn't true? How many of the reverts here are female and how many met a Muslim man first? Four out of every five converts are women I am told. I do not doubt that Islam does not demand women to convert.
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You are right. 4 out every 5 reverts are women. This blows away the false concept that Islam is a repressive religion for women. But you are mistaken about women converting if they meet a Muslim man. A Christian or a Jew woman can keep her faith and doesn't have to convert. So women only convert of conviction and by their own will.

Peace again.
 
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islamgyal said:
what you mean i did not understand ''christainity''?!

take care
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Sister Islamgyal,
May peace and blessings be upon you. You didn't understand. I said you understood Christianity before choosing Islam. I mean one has to know what he/she has for what he/she is leaving for, right? Am I right or am I right?

And brother Heigou is just interested in knowing your religious background sect before you embraced Islam. I'm kinda curious myself too now.

Peace and blessings sister.
Take care of yourself.
 
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Read this Nimrod and all people like Nimrod

Listen ?imrod you have really tresspassed your limits by saying, suggesting, or assuming that God was unable to prtect the bible from corruption.

Well, Your statemnt is quite reasonable. and this something that has crossed the mind of every human being with a critical mind.

I just wanna tell you something, If I want now to re-write quran in my own way by making modifications and sell the copies to people who dont know much about Quran or to people who dont learn it by herat, who will stop me to do so except my own believe? Who will stop? I will be certainly punished by doing this blasephemy but not immeditaly, but i would be punished in the afterlife or i would be punished at the end of my life. God is merciful and He gives His slaves the chance to repent from their sins and to correct their mistakes. I am sure that those who have changed the word of allah are suffering now and are screaming now and are regretting what they did in life. Im sure that they want to tell you 3 there is no God but one God and Mohammed "PBUH" is His messenger".

Other thing, God didnt care much about the protection og the Bible because He knew from the start that they would be another Holy Book which gather the whole previous divine messages. He knew that the Quran will correct the modifications and the corrupted statemnts made by those who dared to change the word of God. The fact that He sent to all humanity Quran is a proof that He is abvle to protect hios word from corruption and made people learn it by heart in order not to be modified.

Muslims were able to learn quran by heart in order to protect Quran from corruption. what can we do for you, if not many of christian people could learn thier Book by heart? If they were lazy to learn it by heart or they had bad memroy , it is not God's fault then?

God is able to protect any of His scriptures without Muslims's attempts and effgorts to learn Quran by heart. But What will be the purpose of coming to this world, if God will do everything to us? We are here in this earth to accomplish the duty for which we were born.

Many people have made a wrong translation of Quran. Many people do not believe in the existence of God and they have written books and articles and have made conferences to proove that God does not exist. If those people still living in the face of this earth and enjoy their life, it does not mean that god is not there, that god does not know what they do; that God is unable to make them vanishing from the face of earth. But god is not stupid like us and violent like us to punish everyone does harm to us, but He gives us the chance to correct our mistakes before being sent to Him. He knows that if we die after saying and writing blasphemous things about him, we would be punished eternally in Hell. He is not a hurry like us.

Dont think that you are very clever and able to convince us, true Muslims, that God was unable to protect His word. I and lmillions of the people everywhere aresent by God to protect his words,He dopes not want to interfere in order to give us the chance to collect rewards in order to go to paradise. When your teacher ask you questions and order you to answer him, it does not mean that he doesnt know the answer. but he wants you to succeed.

thank God for guiding me to his right path
 
I forgot to quote nimrod's words. My last thread is a response to what he said. He said the following:

(I have been amazed to see folks say that God has protected the Koran from corruption so that its basic message remains true to the original understanding, all the while believing that God didn’t or couldn’t do so for the Bible)

Thanks
 
Ivanna "Other thing, God didnt care much about the protection of the Bible".

Think about that for a moment. Why would God care to protect the Koran and NOT choose to protect the Bible?

You suggest that it is because God knew there was to come another book to straighten out all the corruption seen in the first Bible.

So what is the message you are sending??

That God "learned his lesson by what happened to the Bible"?

Is that the message you are sending out?

Ivanna you do understand that the Mormons make almost the exact same cliams in their arguements as you have been making, don't you? I know I have debated them as well.

They would turn your arguements back on you and your reply to them would be much the same as my replies to you.

Al-Mu'min I will go back through the thread and post the questions I never got an answer to.

I will also check to see if there were any questions asked about my beliefs that didn't get answered.

Btw Al-Mu'min the last cut and paste you did contains alot of partial scripture, if you will check the scripture surrounding those cited in the paste, you will see that they have misrepresented the scripture they used.

This thread has became about as circular as they get. I will stick with it for just a bit longer and see if any progress can be made.

Thanks
Nimrod
 

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