Sikhism

[HakimPtsid]

You seem to be Indian as you are familiar with Hinduism and Sikhism rather then some of us who live the west that are more familiar with Christianity, Judaism and post enlightenment atheism.

No, I'm not Indian (I'm a white Australian living in New Zealand), I'm a Westerner. In my introduction post I mentioned that I grew up a Christian and went through a heavy Atheist phase in my teenage years.

How do you reconcile that Hindus allow lower caste members to worship Idols whilst that top caste have different rules like the Brahmans which one could say are monotheist?

I think it's a complex question in all honesty (and also once again requires a semantic clarification). Idols in the Dharmic religions are usually seen as simply symbolic, there's a lot you could read on it. I don't really see the idea of devoting to an 'idol' as any different from bowing to the Kaaba, as neither are worshiping an object, they are psychologically using the object to project into the divine and transcendent (God).
I can't say much for the caste system as I don't live in that kind of society, it's not something I really support myself, I'm more for non-hierarchical social structures myself (human-wise, as God is always absolute and outside of our social structures).

are you Pantheist or monotheist?

I've gone through several views and conceptions of God throughout my life and it's hard to answer without giving a non-answer.

In the sense of the absolute, I guess I might be a monotheist but I don't anthropomorphize God in any sense. I think the way we perceive God is more complex than we often realize.

• An atheist for instance will take the assumption that because they can't see God physically (which is a extreme misnomer as God isn't physical or a person, lol) that God doesn't exist, or they will find the concept of a non-physical (or an extrapersonal) force being the clockwork of the universe to be an absurdity or an irrational conception. - Generally these things always come down to semantic preconceptions, an atheist will often pose a strict dogma to give their position weight (such as the dogma of Materialism - that the physical world is all their is, everything can be explained by what is seen and touched, or thought)
• Taking that into consideration, a traditional monotheist will define God through a strict criteria of terminology based of their scriptures and a pantheist will define God as more of a philosophical conception of nature.

Through my own studies (including that of Islam), I tend to feel that each prefix of Theism together builds up a better idea of God than any one by itself.
Atheism constitutes the immediate experience of life through trying to rationalize the ineffable and immaterial - which through that lens, looks non-existent.
It is experienced through the monotheistic and polytheistic perception - God is experienced in a personal way, through a personal veil.
But God is beyond personal attribution (in spite of sending the Holy Quran and other scriptures).
Pantheism and panentheism both well-describe the way God manifests in the physical world (as a force) but fails to grasp what God is.
In Hinduism, the Brahman/Atman conception of God is probably one of the most beautiful we have as a planet, as with Surah 112 (quoted above) but at the end of it, it has to be truly internalized and experienced. I do believe God is beyond words, beyond language (the word "God" is only a word afterall)

Again, I have to conclude with what I warned, that I can only give a non-answer.

Ultimately I'm asking whats your method on which religion you take when they all contradict each other?

Maybe in a geometric sense (to make an analogy):
Imagine a single point within a circle, now imagine each religion is a difference colored spiral from the center of the circle out towards the circumference. The circumference is God and the absolute reality, the point is us (self - but also time and culture). It all meets up and tries to comprehend the same thing but varies by theism (as I said in your previous question), time, culture/society, language (again), morals/ethics, ritual and so forth.


In my recent conversion to Islam, I feel it is one of the most powerful systems or ways to connect with God and that it hold a lot of absolute truth. But I don't feel it is entirely superior (at this point) to all other religions and I most certainly won't shut myself off to learning, knowledge and wisdom from other religions (and philosophy) just because I'm now partly-Muslim.

 

[azc]

Deleted

 

[HakimPtsid]

@HakimPtsid:

I'm from India. Come here. It's an open market of ''Living Human Gods''. Learn some sleight of hand or preferably magic and assemble some people who will propagate your sainthood, take help of internet and t.v. declare yourself as a ''saint''. People will happily transform you into '' a white skinned God'' .
If you know some verses of Vedas/geeta in Sanskrit will benefit a lot, knowledge of religious stories mentioned in scriptures is an added qualification.
It's the easiest and safest business.

Don't forget to wear saffron clothes, and experience the prostration of people before you.

Your research is based on dead dogmas and theory followed by a very small group called as ''Arya Samaj'' founded by Dayanand Saraswati who (according to Molana Kalimullah, a great Islamic preacher who've converted thousands of Hindus to Islam) became Muslim before his death. It's said that He was poisoned for accepting Islam.

Fyi, even movie actors are worshipped here let alone religious personalities. People make their idols and place them in temples.

If you want to earn chunk of money, start this business but if you want protection for yourself from hell fire, be a truthful and submissive salve of Allah swt... Choice is yours.

WTF are you on about?

Your views are disgusting...

What is disgusting?

You are like a spoilt and stubborn child.

How?

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Ok, [MENTION=38240]azc[/MENTION] what do you think I said in my wall of text?
it could be possible you misread what I said or mixed stuff up but how you replied is quite baffling, confusing and negative.

 

[Alamgir]

what about Hinduism do you think is idolatry?

Is that a joke?

Call me a heretic but I believe many Hindu prophets are as much as part of the framework of Allah's divine revelations as Moses and Muhammad (alayhi s-salam).

There is no reason to believe such nonsense, all we can say is that maybe some of them were Messengers, but that the people corrupted their message. A conclusive ruling cannot be given on such a matter.

Hinduism itself is not a uniform religion

I know, it's just a word used to describe a bunch of different Indian religions that are loosely similar to each other.

Hindus also have practices very similar to the Five Pillars

That might be true, but they have plenty of other practices which are not, e.g the caste system, praying to statues, worshipping animals, etc.

 

[azc]

WTF are you on about?



What is disgusting?



How?

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Ok, [MENTION=38240]azc[/MENTION] what do you think I said in my wall of text?
it could be possible you misread what I said or mixed stuff up but how you replied is quite baffling, confusing and negative.

Highly objectionable views contrary to the basic Islamic belief.

''(me) being a person syncretically both Muslim and Hindu''

''I don't really see the idea of devoting to an 'idol' as any different from bowing to the Kaaba''

''I believe that God is beyond single religions and spiritual traditions but all have some grain of truth to them.''

''Still it is hard not to find it a fascinating religion''

 

[HakimPtsid]

Highly objectionable views contrary to the basic Islamic belief.

''(me) being a person syncretically both Muslim and Hindu''

''I don't really see the idea of devoting to an 'idol' as any different from bowing to the Kaaba''

''I believe that God is beyond single religions and spiritual traditions but all have some grain of truth to them.''

''Still it is hard not to find it a fascinating religion''

The last one is in reference to Sikhism (which this thread is meant to be about) not Hinduism.


At the least, this thread has given me a lot to think about in relation to whether I choose to involve myself in Islam or not. I've certainly defended Islam a lot in the past and gained a strong connection to the Quran, Allah and the figure of Muhammad but I am now having to question my place in it.

I still don't understand what you where going on about that 'living human god' stuff or why you think I'm disgusting.

 

[Alamgir]

I don't really see the idea of devoting to an 'idol' as any different from bowing to the Kaaba

Tough cookies, nobody cares what you think. What matters is what Islam says and Islam says that idols are shirk, whereas our interaction with the Ka'ba is not.

I don't feel it is entirely superior (at this point) to all other religions.

Then, as said before, don't call yourself a Muslim.

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At the least, this thread has given me a lot to think about in relation to whether I choose to involve myself in Islam or not. I've certainly defended Islam a lot in the past and gained a strong connection to the Quran, Allah and the figure of Muhammad but I am now having to question my place in it.

If you're going to continue to have these views, I'd prefer if you didn't try to associate yourself with Islam and Muslims.

 

[eesa the kiwi]

The last one is in reference to Sikhism (which this thread is meant to be about) not Hinduism.


At the least, this thread has given me a lot to think about in relation to whether I choose to involve myself in Islam or not. I've certainly defended Islam a lot in the past and gained a strong connection to the Quran, Allah and the figure of Muhammad but I am now having to question my place in it.

I still don't understand what you where going on about that 'living human god' stuff or why you think I'm disgusting.

Ok brother your kind of new to this so maybe you dont understand some of the reactions you are getting so I'm going to try (gently) to break some of this down for you

Islam is strictly monotheistic. In fact the first testification is laa ilaha illallah. This means nothing and I mean nothing has the right to be worshipped except Allah alone. No idols no monkeys not trees or elephants or rats or whatever else the Hindus worship. Not jesus (alayhis Salam) or crosses or saints or whatever. Nothing and I mean nothing has the right to be worshipped except Allah. Worshipping anything besides Allah is false despised and rejected

To worship other than Allah is the biggest sin one that if a person dies in such a state it means hellfire for eternity

That is why you are getting such a harsh reaction. There's no such thing as a half hindu Muslim. Either you believe in Allah alone and reject false deities or what you follow is not Islam

All is not lost yet though. While you still have breath you can still repent inshaAllah. I'm happy to explain what it is exactly it means to be a Muslim and to explain the beliefs of Islam to you. Just PM me bro I'm here to help

 

[HakimPtsid]

I think you're all conflating the things I've said (again).

I don't worship (or even devote myself to) anything physical, I have no idols and I don't devote myself to any deities.
I believe in one, single, objective, beneficent, merciful, eternal and absolute, transcendent God, Allah.

 

[eesa the kiwi]

I think you're all conflating the things I've said (again).

I don't worship (or even devote myself to) anything physical, I have no idols and I don't devote myself to any deities.
I believe in one, single, objective, beneficent, merciful, eternal and absolute, transcendent God, Allah.

Then how can you say you are half hindu half Muslim. That's like saying you are a four sided triangle
Pantheism and Islam are not compatible that's why everyone is confused. If you believe in one God alone then alhamdulilah why say you are part hindu when they worship a multitude of falsehood

This isn't me criticizing I'm trying to understand you

 

[azc]

The last one is in reference to Sikhism (which this thread is meant to be about) not Hinduism.


At the least, this thread has given me a lot to think about in relation to whether I choose to involve myself in Islam or not. I've certainly defended Islam a lot in the past and gained a strong connection to the Quran, Allah and the figure of Muhammad but I am now having to question my place in it.

I still don't understand what you where going on about that 'living human god' stuff or why you think I'm disgusting.

My brother in Islam. I can never label any of my brother as being ''disgusting'',rather it's your views.

Whoever has replied you so far tried to convince you that Islam is the only true religion. When our religion is true then why we should study other religions for finding any kind of truth.

I apologize for hurting you, bro. If you leave Islam because of me, then I'm going to be held accountable before Allah swt on the judgement day, if Allah swt is displeased with me because of your leaving Islam, then none can stop me from going into hell and I can't bear the hell fire.
And this thread of islamicboard will be the witness, so forgive me for hurting you. I've deleted the objectionable part of my post, you also delete it from your post plz.

This life is very short and death is inevitable, and time of our death isn't known to us. So, every moment, we must be ready for facing the angel of death.

What is revealed in Quran and what our prophet s.a.w said is true.

May Allah swt make us good Muslims. Ameen

 

[HakimPtsid]

Then how can you say you are half hindu half Muslim. That's like saying you are a four sided triangle
Pantheism and Islam are not compatible that's why everyone is confused. If you believe in one God alone then alhamdulilah why say you are part hindu when they worship a multitude of falsehood

This isn't me criticizing I'm trying to understand you

Well in Hindu terms, I agree with many core doctrines of Dharma, Brahman, Karma and Moksha. I'm more reserved/indecisive regarding reincarnation however.
I find many, many gems of wisdom and philosophy in their sacred texts and find the common view towards other beliefs and humanity as a whole to be inspiring.

I've studied many of their traditions and know how they think, which is why I said blatantly that they believe in deities to be symbols of God, not God itself.

 

[Alamgir]

If you leave Islam because of me

I don't think he ever entered it. Even if he did, he clearly left long before you spoke to him, so don't beat yourself up over it.

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Well in Hindu terms, I agree with many core doctrines of Dharma, Brahman, Karma and Moksha. I'm more reserved/indecisive regarding reincarnation however.
I find many, many gems of wisdom and philosophy in their sacred texts and find the common view towards other beliefs and humanity as a whole to be inspiring.

I've studied many of their traditions and know how they think, which is why I said blatantly that they believe in deities to be symbols of God, not God itself.

There is no reason whatsoever to believe in Hindu texts, they don't have any proof for their claims. However, Islam does. So follow Islam, and ditch all the other religions.

If you don't want to, fine, but don't act like your views are based on anything other than emotions.