300 Muslim Tsunami Orphans to be Christianized: Report

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nimrod said:
Woodrow “In my concept of coaxing it is covert coercion, a sales tactic of using a person's fears or gratitude to manipulate them into accepting what you are trying to sway them into believing and wanting”.

Fair enough. Now tell me Exactly what it is that, this group has done that, you disagree with.

Tell me Exactly how they are resorting to “buying children” (your words).

It seems to me that the group is simply providing free help to anyone who needs it.

They are also spreading their message of God, to anyone willing to listen.

They are not with-holding any help from anyone not willing to listen.

So what is the problem?

Does not Islam teach you to do the very same thing?

Why did the site try to link them to human trafficking?

Let’s stand up together and side by side condemn the link that this thread was started from.

The link was biased in an ugly way, and that isn’t Islam nor is it Christian.

Thanks
Nimrod
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Patience. Let me try one step at a time. First I will go back and restudy the link and see if I can understand what you find biased about. I do agree that prejudice is not Muslim nor Christian.
 
Perhaps I am not seeing things in the same manner you are. I personaly can not see anything in the story I would call biased. I just see facts being presented.

Now to return to your other questions. I think if I try to respond in a different order, perhaps I can make my answers more understandable.

Does not Islam teach you to do the very same thing?

No, we are taught to give charity with no expectation of converting.

Now tell me Exactly what it is that, this group has done that, you disagree with.

Tell me Exactly how they are resorting to “buying children” (your words).

These are children under the age of 12. Most had been raised in Muslim Household and have a very high regard for the words of an adult. These children are very susceptable to indoctrination by adults. If this calamity had occured in the USA and an Islamic group came in, helped and then placed the children into the care of a Muslim orphanage, that was going to teach the children the Qur'an and raise the children as Muslim, there would be a world wide out rage. I believe most of the world would view that as Muslims buying children with charity.

Why did the site try to link them to human trafficking?

Because in the eyes of those concerned those are 2 related stories. I can understand you not perceiving the relationship, but keep in mind in that part of the world human trafficking is very common place and is a bonafide fear. All assistance to children will be viewed with suspicion.

It seems to me that the group is simply providing free help to anyone who needs it.

They are also spreading their message of God, to anyone willing to listen.

They are not with-holding any help from anyone not willing to listen.

So what is the problem?

I think the best answer is to keep in mind these are Muslim children. They are Muslim. To us for a Muslim to convert to Christianity is the sin of shirk. These children are being placed in the posistion of committing the one unforgivable sin in Islam. I can understand that the Christian ministers view point is they are saving the children's souls, but to us they are condeming the children to Hellfire.
 
Woodrow said:
I think the best answer is to keep in mind these are Muslim children. They are Muslim. To us for a Muslim to convert to Christianity is the sin of shirk. These children are being placed in the posistion of committing the one unforgivable sin in Islam. I can understand that the Christian ministers view point is they are saving the children's souls, but to us they are condeming the children to Hellfire.
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wouldn't they have the option of repenting when they come of age?
 
snakelegs said:
wouldn't they have the option of repenting when they come of age?
Click to expand...

It would be a difficult thing as they would probably feel very hypacritical for converting to Christianity only out of gatitude .

Would it not be a better choice for the Children to be raised as Muslims, and then be allowed to decide when they reach maturity.
 
Woodrow and others

I put some questions relating to this part of the discussion in post #45 in this thread.
Can I refer you back to it (to save me copying and pasting it here)? I would love to hear your views.

Thanks.
 
#45 copied for reference:

Re: 300 Muslim Tsunami Orphans to be Christianized: Report - 21 Hours Ago

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks you for this article.
Your comments on it have been very interesting.

I am trying to unpick to differences/similarities between Islam and Christianity in terms of spreading the faith.
Like snakelegs, I have never had any Muslims come to my door to convert me ... but then I have never had any Christians do that either. I do get people trying to sell double glazing or feather dusters for charity ...

In both, Muslims and Christians alike, I detect a desire to talk about and share their faith. Would you agree?
With the conviction that those who do not share our belief in 'our' God will go to hell, comes a desire to 'save' those un-believers, especially those who are close to our hearts and who we love! Would you agree?
I would even go further and say, that Islam and Christianity give us a certain responsibility to share our faith, so that non-believers may see the truth for themselves and follow the right path. Would you agree?

Where, then, do we draw the line?

Most Christian aid groups I know have strict policies on evangelising (largely perhaps, because they are monitored by secular organisations ).

I am trying to get a grasp of how Muslim aid groups would deal with a situation of orphaned (non-Muslim) children.
Let's assume a Muslim charity is working in a non-Muslim country where there are a large number of orphans.
What to do with them?
Make sure they are raised in the faith they are accustomed to? (Despite your own misgivings that this is the wrong belief?)
Make sure they are raised in the Muslim faith? (Which you believe is the right one?)
Not get involved with non-believers?

On a slightly different level, how do you feel about this situation:
The church I am involved in, runs a children's group once a week (ages 7 -14) The area I live in is urban, and fairly poor, so having activities for children is always welcome.
The group involves plenty of fun and activites, some sweets (so it's highly attractive to the children) ... and some quiet learning about Jesus' life and Christian values.
Before children join the group, it is made very clear to the parents that it is run by a church, based on Christian values, and will include some Christian teachings. Parents have to give their consent before children can join. A sheet with a Bible verse goes home every week, so parents are aware of what is going on at any time. Many non-Christian children - including Muslims - come.
What do you think?
Is our church right to do this?
Are we 'exploiting' the need of the community for children's activities to spread our faith?
Should such groups be run by non-religious organisations only?
Should the local mosque offer a similar group?

I let you ponder ...

Peace.
 
Thanks Woodrow. :)

I'm logging off shorty. Time to rouse the troups ... ;D

Peace.
 
hi glo,
one of the links sonz gave was to an article i read a long time ago in mother jones magazine (which i think is pretty credible). it's kind of long, but i think you might find it interesting, tho quite disturbing. it just deals with one brand of missionaries that focus esp. on muslims. i don't know how typical they are for christianity, but in any case, i think you would agree that it is these type of tactics that give missionaries a bad name.

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2002/05/stealth.html

a few excerpts:

"Indeed, evangelical leaders encourage missionaries to continue proselytizing, even though converts might be tortured or killed. "Missionaries need maturity and spiritual toughness so that when the fruits of their witness are required to walk through the fire, the missionary does not automatically attempt to rescue them," the Southern Baptist study urges. "Persecution is Biblically and historically normative for the emerging church; it cannot be avoided or eliminated.... To avoid persecution is to hamper the growth of the kingdom of God."

In the end, say evangelicals, the earthly suffering of Christians pales before the eternal hell to which Muslims are sentenced. "It's hard for me to say, 'I have a passport out of here if things get out of hand, but you have to stay here and take it,'" says Raymond Weiss, a former missionary in Bahrain. "But that's what Jesus says: Sometimes it will be fathers and mothers against each other for his sake. If Jesus is cosmically, ultimately true, then whatever cost in this world is nothing."
 
missionaries come around here, even tho less frequently than they used to. maybe they think it's too dangerous now, i dunno. mormons are the most common.
i am not very fond of them.
 
Copied from Glo's post #45

Red are my replies:

I am trying to unpick to differences/similarities between Islam and Christianity in terms of spreading the faith.
Like snakelegs, I have never had any Muslims come to my door to convert me ... but then I have never had any Christians do that either. I do get people trying to sell double glazing or feather dusters for charity ...

In both, Muslims and Christians alike, I detect a desire to talk about and share their faith. Would you agree?

I agree with that. I think all people who genuinly love God(swt) want to express their love to all people they meet.


With the conviction that those who do not share our belief in 'our' God will go to hell, comes a desire to 'save' those un-believers, especially those who are close to our hearts and who we love! Would you agree?

Speaking for myself as a Muslim. I see little value in my desires. I do not have the power to save anybody. I can only live my life to the best of my ability as a Muslim. If anyone wishes to live as I do, I will gladly share with them.

I would even go further and say, that Islam and Christianity give us a certain responsibility to share our faith, so that non-believers may see the truth for themselves and follow the right path. Would you agree?

I will agree, but I believe we need to share it by example and not by words. I can want everybody to find the beauty of the Qur'an, but I would never ask anyone to read it, unless they expressed a true desire to learn about it. Then I would only give them a translation of it, in their own language. Which to us is not the Qur'an. If a person still showed interest, I would help them prepare to read the true Arabic.

Where, then, do we draw the line?

Most Christian aid groups I know have strict policies on evangelising (largely perhaps, because they are monitored by secular organisations ).

I will agree with that. I have no fault with the majority of Christian Aid groups. Nearly all I know do not use that as a means to prostelyze their beliefs.

I am trying to get a grasp of how Muslim aid groups would deal with a situation of orphaned (non-Muslim) children.

In the situations I know of where Islamic aid groups came to help Non-Muslims (Hurricane Katrina in Louisiana) The aid was primarily in the form of financial assistance, with no direct contact with the people. being helped. Most who were helped are not and never will be aware of where the money came from.

Let's assume a Muslim charity is working in a non-Muslim country where there are a large number of orphans.
What to do with them?

From the few situations I know of, The aid went to place the children in orphanages or families of their own faith.

Make sure they are raised in the faith they are accustomed to? (Despite your own misgivings that this is the wrong belief?)
Make sure they are raised in the Muslim faith? (Which you believe is the right one?)
Not get involved with non-believers?

Involved with them for humanitarian reasons. But, we are forbidden to give them any reason to have to become Muslim, unless it is their own genuine choice.

On a slightly different level, how do you feel about this situation:
The church I am involved in, runs a children's group once a week (ages 7 -14) The area I live in is urban, and fairly poor, so having activities for children is always welcome.
The group involves plenty of fun and activites, some sweets (so it's highly attractive to the children) ... and some quiet learning about Jesus' life and Christian values.
Before children join the group, it is made very clear to the parents that it is run by a church, based on Christian values, and will include some Christian teachings. Parents have to give their consent before children can join. A sheet with a Bible verse goes home every week, so parents are aware of what is going on at any time. Many non-Christian children - including Muslims - come.
What do you think?

There does not seem to be any compulsion. The Children are not in a situation to feel obligated, they return to the guidance of their parents. I don't see any problem.

Is our church right to do this?

Of course your Church is right in doing that. It is a free choice. It is the responsibility of the parents and the children to decide if they are violating the Qur'an. My concern would be if the children might be violating our rules about seperation of the genders and if the children are free to keep their prayer times. But, that is the responsibility of the parents to find out, before letting the children attend.

Are we 'exploiting' the need of the community for children's activities to spread our faith?

That is a gray area. The intents seem to be two fold, can/are the intents seperate? one intent to provide for the growth of all children, with no compulsion of religion or is the intent is that all children will convert.

Should such groups be run by non-religious organisations only?

No, some times the secular organizations will be the least tolerant over individual religious beliefs.


Should the local mosque offer a similar group?

I think it should, if it has sufficient funds to do so.

I let you ponder ...

Peace.
 
Woodrow said:
With the conviction that those who do not share our belief in 'our' God will go to hell, comes a desire to 'save' those un-believers, especially those who are close to our hearts and who we love! Would you agree?

Speaking for myself as a Muslim. I see little value in my desires. I do not have the power to save anybody. I can only live my life to the best of my ability as a Muslim. If anyone wishes to live as I do, I will gladly share with them.
Click to expand...
Woodrow is right. Unlike Christian belief, no muslim is guaranteed paradise.

I agree that if a muslim holds someone close to his heart, it is natural that he will try to 'save' the other, and vice-versa. But then it is important to understand that it is only Allah who guides and Allah who misguides, not the muslim. If Allah had wished that such and such will never accept the truth.. then it is hopeless to try convert him, wouldn't you agree?.. This is where our intentions change. Since now, we know that there is no promise or guarantee that a kafir will turn muslim.. we might as well show him the truth only to please Allah. In fact, not just this, but every good action that muslims do are with the intention of pleasing Allah.. 'Love' for the non-muslim may serve a secondary reason only.
 
nimrod said:
Abd’Majid “No one does anything for free until they truly learn to love Allah for the sake of loving Allah alone - (Achieving this is a great feat)”.

I assume that you would agree that these Christians are doing what they do, for free.

Correct?

I would also add that some Athiest do what they do for free, after all they were created in God's image as well.

Thanks
Nimrod
Click to expand...

:peace: Nimrod :),

My understanding on christian doctrine is poor. Do they think that good deeds are required to get into heaven? If not then yes, i think they are doing it for free. Also i dont believe any of us is created in Gods image seeing as noone can comprehend Gods image.


Wa lamya kullahu kuffuan Ahad!
And there is none like the one and only Allah!

:peace:
 
Thank you Woodrow.
Your opinion means much to me.

Can I pick up on this quote of yours:
With the conviction that those who do not share our belief in 'our' God will go to hell, comes a desire to 'save' those un-believers, especially those who are close to our hearts and who we love! Would you agree?

Speaking for myself as a Muslim. I see little value in my desires. I do not have the power to save anybody. I can only live my life to the best of my ability as a Muslim. If anyone wishes to live as I do, I will gladly share with them.
Click to expand...
I appreciate what you are saying. And I would agree as a Christian. Only God can convict people of the truth. We can merely live our faith, and share it with people if they are open to it.

But, on a more personal level , how do you deal with loved ones, who choose not to follow your religion, and thereby - according to the teachings of your religion - are doomed to eternal punishment?
It may be fine to accept that strangers may choose whichever path they like ... but with loved ones that is much harder to do. :X

peace.
 
snakelegs said:
hi glo,
one of the links sonz gave was to an article i read a long time ago in mother jones magazine (which i think is pretty credible). it's kind of long, but i think you might find it interesting, tho quite disturbing. it just deals with one brand of missionaries that focus esp. on muslims. i don't know how typical they are for christianity, but in any case, i think you would agree that it is these type of tactics that give missionaries a bad name.

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2002/05/stealth.html

a few excerpts:

"Indeed, evangelical leaders encourage missionaries to continue proselytizing, even though converts might be tortured or killed. "Missionaries need maturity and spiritual toughness so that when the fruits of their witness are required to walk through the fire, the missionary does not automatically attempt to rescue them," the Southern Baptist study urges. "Persecution is Biblically and historically normative for the emerging church; it cannot be avoided or eliminated.... To avoid persecution is to hamper the growth of the kingdom of God."

In the end, say evangelicals, the earthly suffering of Christians pales before the eternal hell to which Muslims are sentenced. "It's hard for me to say, 'I have a passport out of here if things get out of hand, but you have to stay here and take it,'" says Raymond Weiss, a former missionary in Bahrain. "But that's what Jesus says: Sometimes it will be fathers and mothers against each other for his sake. If Jesus is cosmically, ultimately true, then whatever cost in this world is nothing."
Click to expand...
Thanks snakelegs.
So far I have only skimmed over the rather long article.
You are right, it's a rather creepy and disturbing read ... although a peep into Frontier's own website shows they they are driven by a strong (and perhaps rather misguided) love for the Muslim people. :rollseyes

You could argue that, if sharing other faiths was not illegal and punishable in some countries, people wouldn't feel the need to adopt dubious and sneaky methods to do just that.

Wouldn't it be nice, if people across the world could just share and discuss their different faiths, and be free to convert from one faith to another!
Ahhh ... I have a dream today. :statisfie

Peace.
 
NEM said:
No.
Redeemed Brother of His Holy family is what ~ I Am.
Click to expand...

Are you claiming Divinity???

Anyhow anyone else who directed anything towards me sorry I have missed it, and it seems the thread has moved on abit so if u want me to asnwer anything then re post it or pm me.

peace
 
Glo, I too read the article Snake Legs referred to.

I guess, I am not just understanding the math.

From the article:

"Virtually overnight, local believers are left destitute and exposed." The study cites Indonesia, Bangladesh, Afghanistan, and Pakistan as particularly repressive. In one East African community, it reports, converts were "systematically hunted down and martyred by adherents to Islam. Other believers are displaced; they live in refugee camps; they reside in adjacent countries, or in the West."


So these converts to Christianity are hunted down and murdered among other bad things happening to them………. And it’s the fault of the Missionaries??????

Surely that has to be some twisted logic.

The problem is the fact that these people, who are providing free food and help to people who need it, also talk about Jesus??????

The real problem isn’t those that are going around persecuting and sometimes murdering those who convert????????

Man that has to be some twisted logic.

I just don’t get it.

That's like saying "She deserved to get raped because of the way she was dressed".

Do you understand what I am saying Glo?

Thanks
Nimrod
 
Abd'Majid said:
My understanding on christian doctrine is poor. Do they think that good deeds are required to get into heaven? If not then yes, i think they are doing it for free.
Click to expand...

Christian doctrine varies from Church to Church. Some Churches think that Good Deeds are pointless. What is needed is God's Grace. This is especially true of the more Protestant Protestant Churches. The extreme case are those who believe in pre-destination which claims that God has decided who will go to Heaven already and did so before Creation and hence nothing we do can affect our chances one way or the other. However the mainstream Christian position in the Catholics who accept Good Deeds and Divine Grace are both important. So you can get into Heaven if you do enough Good Deeds even if you are not particularly nice or pleasant as a person. The extreme case is Dostoyevsky who had a character in one of his novels who got into Heaven because she once gave an onion to someone.
 
nimrod said:
The problem is the fact that these people, who are providing free food and help to people who need it, also talk about Jesus??????

The real problem isn’t those that are going around persecuting and sometimes murdering those who convert????????
Click to expand...
Yes, I know what you mean, Nimrod.
As I said earlier:
Wouldn't it be nice, if people across the world could just share and discuss their different faiths, and be free to convert from one faith to another!

In an ideal world, there wouldn't be any imprisonment, torture or death as punishment for the conversion to another faith in the first place.

Sadly, this is not an ideal world we live in. :-\

peace.
 
The problem is the fact that these people, who are providing free food and help to people who need it, also talk about Jesus??????
Click to expand...
some groups actually hold back food if you don't accept Jesus or something like that.
besides they rely on lies and deceit.so Christians aren't better than us terrorist,sexist,evil Muslims.
 

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