Do Muslims believe the original Bible is the word of God?

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Why debate from the Qur'an? It is only the Qur'an that denies that historical fact. No other source would agree with your book.

The New Testament teaching that Jesus died on the cross is not a matter of interpretation. It is a matter of fact, historical fact. It is so stated, clearly and unambiguously, in countless verses over and over again, as well as in various non-biblical books and sources.

I'm not limited in the debate to ONE book. You are.

Peace

bismillah

Greetings, Phil

I do not wish to debate from the Qur'an. The qur'an is staunch in its position and I abide by it. There are other sources which indirectly points to the Qur'anic position of this mighty messenger Jesus (as), nonetheless, you label them "apocrypha." Even some early Christian groups did not hold the position as Jesus (as) being crucified or the belief as him (as) being God incarnate.

The NT position of the crucifixion is spoken of in the NT. But any critical analysis from your Bible can be seen that it was not so.

Say: "O people of the Book! exceed not in your religion the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by,- who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the even way."

Qur'an 5.77

"Behold! Allah said: O Jesus! I will take thee And raise thee to Myself And clear thee (of the falsehoods) Of those who blaspheme; I will make those Who follow thee superior To those who reject faith, To the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, And I will judge Between you of the matters wherein ye dispute."

Qur'an 3.55

“And concerning their saying, 'We killed the Messiah Jesus son of Mary, Allah's Messenger.' They killed him not, nor crucified, but it appeared so to them. Indeed those who disagree concerning it are in doubt about it. They have no (true) knowledge about it except that they follow conjecture. Surely, they did not kill him. But Allah did take him up unto Himself. Allah is ever Mighty, Wise.” (An-Nisaa’: 157-158)

It appeared to them. But sadly, they were mistaken.

You say it is stated in the Bible. I know what you are referring to. Your NT the Old Testament.

 
I wonder why the theory presented in the gospel of barnabas not accepted. Is it because it does not support the orignal sin?

bismillah

assalamu alaikum' brother

There were many of these so-called gospels to choose from when the collection was being formulated, however, the four we have today were chosen only through a painstaking effort.

But to say why it wasn't chosen, one reason could be Isa ibn Maryam (as) was not crucified.

Original sin is a Christian concept and it is the setup to the belief of the atonement. Hence, without original sin there can be no blood atonement through Isa (as). Thus, humanity having to work for its own salvation through the grace of Allaah (swt).

Original Sin and Atonement are essential to their creed.

Thw Qur'an says so as well. Why don't the Nasara believe we Muslims do not have the hope of salvation? Because we don't believe in Isa (as) as our personal Lord and savior and we deny the crucifixion.

Judas scourged excerpt from the Gospel of Barnabas

It is long, but it presents Judas as the Nasara presents Isa (as).

The soldiers took Judas ;and bound him, not without derision. For he truthfully denied that he was Jesus; and the soldiers, mocking him, said: 'Sir, fear not, for we are come to make you king of Israel, and we have bound you because we know that you do refuse the kingdom.' Judas answered: 'Now have you lost your senses! You are come to take Jesus of Nazareth;, with arms and lanterns as [against] a robber; and you have bound me that have guided you, to make me king!'

Then the soldiers lost their patience, and with blows and kicks they began to flout Judas, and they led him with fury into Jerusalem. John ;and Peter ;followed the soldiers afar off; and they affirmed to him who writes that they saw all the examination that was made of Judas by the high priest, and by the council of the Pharisees, who were assembled to put Jesus to death. Whereupon Judas spoke many words of madness, insomuch that every one was filled with laughter, believing that he was really Jesus, and that for fear of death he was feigning madness. Whereupon the scribes bound his eyes with a bandage, and mocking him said: 'Jesus, prophet of the Nazarenes ;(for so they called them who believed in Jesus), 'tell us, who was it that smote you?' And they buffeted him and spat in his face.

When it was morning there assembled the great council of scribes and elders of the people; and the high priest with the Pharisees sought false witness against Judas, believing him to be Jesus: and they found not that which they sought. And why say I that the chief priests believed Judas to be Jesus? No all the disciples, with him who writes, believed it; and more, the poor Virgin mother of Jesus, with his kinsfolk and friends, believed it, insomuch that the sorrow of every one was incredible.

As God lives, he who writes forgot all that Jesus had said: how that he should be taken up from the world, and that he should suffer in a third person, and that he should not die until near the end of the world. Wherefore he went with the mother of Jesus and with John to the cross. The high priest caused Judas ;to be brought before him bound, and asked him of his disciples and his doctrine. Whereupon Judas, as though beside himself, answered nothing to the point. The high priest then adjured him by the living God of Israel that he would tell him the truth.

Judas answered: 'I have told you that I am Judas Iscariot, who promised to give into your hands Jesus the Nazarene; and you, by what are I know not, are beside yourselves, for you will have it by every means that I am Jesus.' The high priest answered: 'O perverse seducer, you have deceived all Israel, beginning from Galilee ;even to Jerusalem here, with your doctrine and false miracles: and now think you to flee the merited punishment that befits you by feigning to be mad?

As God lives,' you shall not escape it!' And having said this he commanded his servants to smite him with buffetings and kicks, so that his understanding might come back into his head. The derision which he then suffered at the hands of the high priest's servants is past belief. For they zealously devised new inventions to give pleasure to the council. So they attired him as a juggler, and so treated him with hands and feet that it would have moved the very Canaanites to compassion if they had beheld that sight. But the chief priests and Pharisees and elders of the people had their hearts so exasperated against Jesus that, believing Judas to be really Jesus, they took delight in seeing him so treated.

Afterwards they led him bound to the governor, who secretly loved Jesus. Whereupon he, thinking that Judas was Jesus, made him enter into his chamber, and spoke to him, asking him for what cause the chief priests and the people had given him into his hands. Judas answered: 'If I tell you the truth, you will not believe me; for perhaps you are deceived as the (chief) priests and the Pharisees are deceived.'

The governor answered (thinking that he wished to speak concerning the Law): 'Now know you not that I am not a Jew? but the (chief) priests and the elders of your people have given you into my hand; wherefore tell us the truth, wherefore I may do what is just. For I have power to set you free and to put you to death.' Judas answered: 'Sir, believe me, if you put me to death, you shall do a great wrong, for you shall slay an innocent person; seeing that I am Judas ;Iscariot, and not Jesus, who is a magician, and by his are has so transformed me.'

When he heard this the governor marvelled greatly, so that he sought to set him at liberty. The governor therefore went out, and smiling said: 'In the one case, at least, this man is not worthy of death, but rather of compassion.' 'This man says,' said the governor, 'that he is not Jesus, but a certain Judas who guided the soldiery to take Jesus, and he says that Jesus the Galilean has by his are magic so transformed him. Wherefore, if this be true, it were a great wrong to kill him, seeing that he were innocent. But if he is Jesus and denies that he is, assuredly he has lost his understanding, and it were impious to slay a madman.'

Then the chief priests and elders of the people, with the scribes and Pharisees, cried out with shouts, saying: 'He is Jesus of Nazareth;, for we know him; for if he were not the malefactor we would not have given him into your hands. Nor is he mad; but rather malignant, for with this device he seeks to escape from our hands, and the sedition that he would stir up if he should escape would be worse than the former.' Pilate (of such was the governor's name), in order to rid himself of such a case, said: 'He is a Galilean, and Herod is king of Galilee: wherefore it pertains not to me to judge such a case, so take you him to Herod.'

Accordingly they led Judas to Herod, who of a long time had desired that Jesus should go to his house. But Jesus had never been willing to go to his house, because Herod was a Gentile, and adored the false and lying gods, living after the manner of the unclean Gentiles. Now when Judas had been led thither, Herod asked him of many things, to which Judas gave answers not to the purpose, denying that he was Jesus. Then Herod mocked him, with all his court, and caused him to be clad in white as the fools are clad;, and sent him back to Pilate, saying to him, 'Do not fail in justice to the people of Israel!' * And this Herod wrote, because the chief priests and scribes and the Pharisees had given him a good quantity of money. The governor having heard that this was so from a servant of Herod, in order that he also might gain some money, feigned that he desired to set Judas at liberty.

Whereupon he caused him to be scourged by his slaves, who were paid by the scribes to slay him under the scourges. But God, who had decreed the issue, reserved Judas for the cross, in order that he might suffer that horrible death to which he had sold another. He did not suffer Judas to die under the scourges, notwithstanding that the soldiers scourged him so grievously that his body rained blood. Thereupon, in mockery they clad him in an old purple garment;, saying: 'It is fitting to our new king to clothe him and crown him': so they gathered thorns and made a crown, like those of gold and precious stones which kings wear on their heads. And this crown of thorns they placed upon Judas' head, putting in his hand a reed for sceptre;, and they made him sit in a high place.

And the soldiers came before him, bowing down in mockery, saluting him as King of the Jews. And they held out their hands to receive gifts, such as new kings are accustomed to give; and receiving nothing they smote Judas, saying: 'Now, how are you crowned, foolish king, if you will not pay your soldiers and servants?' *The chief priests with the scribes and Pharisees, seeing that Judas died not by the scourges, and fearing lest Pilate should set him at liberty, made a gift of money to the governor, who having received it gave Judas to the scribes and Pharisees as guilty to death. Whereupon they condemned two robbers with him to the death of the cross.

So they led him to Mount Calvary, where they used to hang malefactors, and there they crucified him naked;, for the greater ignominy. *Judas truly did nothing else but cry out: 'God, why have you forsaken me, seeing the malefactor has escaped and I die unjustly?' *Truly I say that the voice, the face, and the person of Judas were so like to Jesus, that his disciples and believers entirely believed that he was Jesus; wherefore some departed from the doctrine of Jesus, believing that Jesus had been a false prophet, and that by art magic he had done the miracles which he did: for Jesus had said that he should not die till near the end of the world; for that at that time he should be taken away from the world.

But they that stood firm in the doctrine of Jesus were so encompassed with sorrow, seeing him die who was entirely like to Jesus, that they remembered not what Jesus had said. And so in company with the mother of Jesus they went to Mount Calvary, and were not only present at the death of Judas, weeping continually, but by means of Nicodemus and Joseph of Abarimathia; they obtained from the governor the body of Judas to bury it. Whereupon, they took him down from the cross with such weeping as assuredly no one would believe, and buried him in the new sepulchre of Joseph; having wrapped him up in an hundred pounds of precious ointments.
 
Judaism teaches the Old Covenant and Christianity teaches the New Covenant. Under the Old Covenant forgiveness was based on blood sacrifices.

Leviticus 17:11. `For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.'

The writer of Hebrews, in discussing and contrasting the Old and New covenants, says in 9:22:

22. And according to the law almost all things are purged with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission[forgiveness].

The Old Covenant (or Old Testament or O.T.) with all its animal sacrifices prefigured the ultimate sacrifice that Jesus, "the Lamb of God," made at Calvary, never to be repeated. Destruction of the Jewish temple in 70 A.D. did not destroy the law that required such sacrifices for forgiveness.

You mentioned Job. Notice Job 1:4-5:

4. Now his sons would go and feast in their houses, each on his appointed day, and would send and invite their three sisters to eat and drink with them.
5. So it was, when the days of feasting had run their course, that Job would send and sanctify them, and he would rise early in the morning and offer burnt offerings according to the number of them all. For Job said, "It may be that my sons have sinned and cursed God in their hearts.'' Thus Job did regularly.

Under Judaism, sin always required some payment, either in the form of a sacrificed animal, where the sin is symbolically transferred to the animal who dies, or punishment of the sinner himself. Today, not having a temple in which to sacrifice animals does not nullify or cancel the Law's demands, which includes all God said through Moses to the people concerning all the many sacrifices they were told to offer through the priests for an atonement for their souls.

Under the New Covenant, Christ's shedding of His Blood provides a full and complete atonement for our souls today.

1 Peter 1:
18. knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers,
19. but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.

1 John 1:
7. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Revelation 1:5
...Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood

You say, "The remedy for sin is clear. Biblically, God's loving-kindness depends on right conduct." Wrong. Right conduct might show repentance, but it never cancels out wrong conduct. And we are all sinnners, constantly doing wrong conduct. God is loving, for sure. That is why we read in John 3:16---

16. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

Think about this: Man sins, rebelling against God. Man in his fallen, rebellious state cannot offer anything of value to God to himself atone for his sins, so God sends His Son ("He gave His only begotten Son" at Calvary) as the remedy for man's sins. But what do most men, including you, do? You reject the very remedy that God Himself has provided for your sins. If you die doing that then you will pay for your own sins for all eternity.

John 3:36 --- "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.''

If billions have gone to eternal damnation it is because they are all sinners and deserving that fate. It is only by the grace of God that we all don't go there. I will leave to a Just, Holy, Righteous, and Loving God the fate of those who have not heard the Gospel. They, like all people, are sinners. "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?'' (Gen. 18:25).

But YOU, who HAVE heard the Gospel, have a far worse fate if you continue to reject the payment Christ has made for your sins. You have no excuse.

Peace

bismillah

Greetings,

I know your verses well. However, these are also relevant:

Deuteronomy 24:16 - Fathers shall not be put to death because of children, nor shall children be put to death for fathers; each person shall be put to death for his own sin. [See also Exod 32:31-33; Num 35:33.]

2 Kings 14:6 - And the sons of the assassins he did not execute, as it is written in the book of the Torah of Moses, which the L-rd commanded saying: "Fathers shall not be put to death for sons, nor shall sons be put to death for fathers, but each man shall be put to death for his own sin." [See also Jer 31:29{30 in Christian Bibles}; Ezek 18:4,20; Ps 49:7-8.]

There are three methods of atonement clearly defined in the Jewish scriptures: the sin sacrifice, repentance, and charity. Moreover, the sin sacrifice did not atone for all types of sin, but rather, only for man's most insignificant iniquity: unintentional sins. The sin sacrifice was inadequate to atone for a transgression committed intentionally. The brazen sinner was kept from the sanctuary, and had to bear his own iniquity because of his rebellious intent to sin against God. The Old Testament teaches this fundamental principle in Numbers 15:27-31.

If a person sins unintentionally, then he shall offer a one-year-old female goat for a sin offering. The priest shall make atonement before the LORD for the person who goes astray when he sins unintentionally, making atonement for him that he may be forgiven . . . . The person who does anything defiantly, whether he is native or an alien, that one is blaspheming the LORD; and that person shall be cut off from among his people, because he has despised the word of the LORD and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt shall be on him.


Christians assert that for the past 19 centuries, since the destruction of the second Temple in 70 C.E., Jews have lacked the essential and indispensable animal sacrificial system for atonement. Consequently, they maintain, God must have provided a blood atonement in place of the animal sacrifices of the past. This sacrifice, they insist, is the death of Jesus (as) on the cross.

Jesus (as) could not die for anyone's sins, whether they were committed intentionally or unintentionally. The Jewish people were strictly prohibited from offering human sacrifices under any circumstances. There is not one place throughout the entire Jewish scripture where human sacrifices are condoned. In fact, over and over again the Bible warns the Jewish people that it is a grave sin to bring a human being as a sacrifice. In the Book of Leviticus, only distinct species of animals are permitted for use in blood sacrifices.

Hosea 14:2-3 states,

Take words with you, and return to the LORD. Say to Him, "Take away all iniquity; receive us graciously, for we will render for bulls the offering of our lips."

Hosea 3:4-5 reads,

. . . for the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days.

There will be hellfire for any who associate anything with God Almighty. That will not be forgiven after you die. You will have no excuse to why you worshipped others than the ONE TRUE GOD ALONE.
 
You have fallen into their trap.

The Muslim belief is that God gave a verbal mesage to the prophet(pbuh).

And the Muslim belief is that by the same method that he gave a message to Jesus - verbally. And that message has been corrupted.

You are re-inforcing their belief instead of your own belief.

They ask every Christian here the same question with the same trap in mind.


bismillah

Greetings,

We know the message to Jesus (as) was an oral message. We know this for sure whether or not you believe it. Are belief is already fortified through our Qur'an and the ONE TRUE GOD whom we worship.
 
Isa Abdullah said:
If the Bible can't get the small matter correct, what about the bigger matters?


A team plays in the final of an important football competition. 30 years later they are asked questions about the match.

They will always get the big things right: who one the match, the score, who scored the goals.

But they will often get the small details wrong: were the goals scored in the 10th minute, 20th minute, 30th minute???

The gospels record that Christ entered a temple to clean it. THE BIG THING is that he cleaned it to show it was not beneath him to do so.

THE LITTLE THING is: when did he enter the temple??? Afternoon or early morning?
 
Joe89 said:
And the Muslim belief is that by the same method that he gave a message to Jesus - verbally. And that message has been corrupted.

Joe, stop making a fool of yourself. If you want to know why the Bible has been corrupted, do a google search.

I hate it when a mere uneducated atheist speaks for Muslims. Go do something productive than show ignorance here.
 
Please quote the paragraph from the Koran that states this.

The word 'kitab' in the arabic language does not denote to written book specifically. As with Muhammad (peace be upon him) once the revelation was bestowed upon him (peace be upon him) he had it instilled within his memory. Thus reciting it to his companions and them in turn reciting it over and over.

In the case with Jesus, son of Mary (peace be upon him) did he command his followers to write? Does the Bible elaborate on this information? Does it tell us?

There is a major difference. The Qur'an was written in the 'lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon).

On the other hand, Jesus, son of Mary (peace be upon him) recited what he heard from Allaah (God). It was not a new message, it was a revival of the old. To oppose those Pharisees who formalised the religion of Moses (peace be upon him).

"We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms."

4.163


"And remember, jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of an Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!"

61.06
 
A team plays in the final of an important football competition. 30 years later they are asked questions about the match.

They will always get the big things right: who one the match, the score, who scored the goals.

But they will often get the small details wrong: were the goals scored in the 10th minute, 20th minute, 30th minute???

The gospels record that Christ entered a temple to clean it. THE BIG THING is that he cleaned it to show it was not beneath him to do so.

THE LITTLE THING is: when did he enter the temple??? Afternoon or early morning?

bismillah

Interesting analogy, but that does not suffice. We are not speaking of sports, we are speaking of God.

Lets take the acension of Jesus (peace be upon him) for example. I noticed that throughout time some have saw fit to exclude that verse. Other have kept it. Others have reinserted it. You see it is not merely a matter of a contradiction between small things, but more of the human interpreters the Biblical scripture to translate specific words correctly from the text.

Jesus (peace be upon him) spoke Aramaic correct? Do we have any Aramaic texts? Throughout history people have seen it fit, to create gospels which others within the Christian community reject and others likewise. The nature of Jesus (peace be upon him) was and still is a crucial issue for many Christian sects. Catholics believe in the sacraments and the Chusrch institution that can play a part in ones salvation, the born-agains say mere belief in Jesus (peace be upon him) will suffice.

There is a crucial debate among the basics of the Christian faith. Who is to say who is right when they all claim to be possessed by the Holy Spirit?
 
sorry this is out of order. but do you not believe in the Sacrifice of God because it doesn't fit? or because the Quran says so?
 
bismillah

Greetings,

We Muslims believe that the Qur'an is the Word of Allaah (God). If the Qur'an says so, we believe it. We hear and we obey.

Muslims follow the Qur'an and the example of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him). There is no other source of guidance.

Why do you believe in this blood atonement? Is it because it makes sense or because the NT tells you that this is so?
 
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bismillah

Greetings,

We Muslims believe that the Qur'an is the Word of Allaah (God). If the Qur'an says so, we believe it. We hear and we obey.

Why do you believe in this blood atonement? Is it because it makes sense or because the NT tells you that this is so?

Because it fits perfectly with what God does. through out the Bible God makes sacrifices to save His people. it wasn't something that was made up out of thin air.

God Bless,
PrIM3
 
bismillah

Greetings,

You are correct, brother.

The "sin" of Adam and Eve was it intentional or unintentional?
 
bismillah

Greetings,

You are correct, brother.

The "sin" of Adam and Eve was it intentional or unintentional?


I myself don't know --- I know that God has a Divine plan which is His perfect plan or will for us to do. But I think when sin entered the world we kind of made Gods plan shift a little bit and through out History God has been trying to bring back man on to His Divine Plan (atleast that is what I think).
like Jonah and the whale God told him what He wanted (His Divine plan) but Jonah didn't want to go. so God sent a storm so that Jonah might re-think about what he was doing. and at the end of the story we know that the city Jonah preached at repented from their sins.
So I would like to say that it was intentional but it wasn't part of His Divine plan.
 
Peace be upon those who Submit to the G-d of Abraham.

Bro Muslim Friend,

The Qur'an tells us that jesus(as) did not die on the cross, "but it was made to appear so" .. The ones who wanted Jesus(as) dead were deceived into believing he had really died, but the truth is that he did not die at all.

This gives the impression as also Phil states that only those who wanted Jesus dead were decieved, thus Phil went into a whole new level of showing us that Jesus' disciples didnt want him dead. Insh'Allah in the future please try be more precise as there are people who are not acquainted with the Ideas in the Qu'ran.

Following,

Plus, He had told them several times BEFORE He was crucified that He WOULD be crucified. Did He lie to them? Peace

Now I will for a second assume that the Gospels are written by Jesus' disciples, how do we know that Jesus said this (That he would be crucified) to his disciples? Because they told us in their Gospels, do the writers of the Gospels write word for word what Jesus said? Not in all cases so it is easy that if these disciples were already decieved that they could take what they heard Jesus say before and interpret it to mean that he predicted his death and then write it in this manner.

It is not the disciples and historians that were deceived.

Please feel free to quote us some historians, so that we can increase our knowledge in such matters.

Again Bro Muslim you said,

Firstly i got a bit confused. i do know that it was the disciples who recorded the gospels.

How do you know it was the Disciples of Jesus who wrote the Gospels, please show me how you came to this conclusion.

Brother Isa Abdullah,

Secondly, let us call it what it is: the injil (gospel) was revealed to Jesus (as) "orally". His followers were not his scribes as the followers of Muhammad (saw).

What makes you take such a stance? What proof is there that Jesus' disciples or Jesus himself did not write it down or that his Disciples were not scribes.

Mr. Joe,
"The" gospel is the wrong word to begin with. There are 4 gospels, they were written by Mathew, Mark, Luke and John. God did not reveal anything to Jesus.

This is not the first time I have seen you make such statements, which undoubtly makes me wonder how much Biblical reading you have done.

Joe again you say,

No, instead there is a decision by Muslims to pretend not to understand.

The story is Judas commited suicide after he betrayed Jesus.

How did he commit suicide? Nobody cares except Muslims trying to discredit the story.

But I don't think you fully understand, I as a Muslim do not claim not to understand it, I fully understand it, I understand that we have two different accounts of one incident which both tell me that Judas died but both are different in details.

The Problem here is that if someone tells me the Bible is the Word of G-d that G-d told these people what to write, then I have the problem in understanding that if G-d told these people to write this then why is there a contradiction, even in detail.

That's what I as a Muslim do not understand.

Brother Isa Abdullah I hope you can clarify something, you stated this,

The word 'kitab' in the arabic language does not denote to written book specifically. As with Muhammad (peace be upon him) once the revelation was bestowed upon him (peace be upon him) he had it instilled within his memory. Thus reciting it to his companions and them in turn reciting it over and over.

In the case with Jesus, son of Mary (peace be upon him) did he command his followers to write? Does the Bible elaborate on this information? Does it tell us?

There is a major difference. The Qur'an was written in the 'lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon).

On the other hand, Jesus, son of Mary (peace be upon him) recited what he heard from Allaah (God). It was not a new message, it was a revival of the old. To oppose those Pharisees who formalised the religion of Moses (peace be upon him).

"We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms."

4.163

"And remember, jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of an Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!"

61.06


I understand three things from this, you claim:

1. The Bible doesnt tell us of any command by Jesus to write scripture down, and from this you derive that so Jesus' message was only oral?

2.From the previous you also seem to derive that Jesus' message was wrote after his departing, I understand that from you saying "There is a major difference. The Qur'an was written in the 'lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon)."

3.You claim Jesus' message was not a new message but only a reminder/revival of Moses' message, "It was not a new message, it was a revival of the old." From what do you derive this understanding, Islamicly.

Salam Aleykum.

Peace be upon those who follow guidance.
 
I myself don't know --- I know that God has a Divine plan which is His perfect plan or will for us to do. But I think when sin entered the world we kind of made Gods plan shift a little bit and through out History God has been trying to bring back man on to His Divine Plan (atleast that is what I think).
like Jonah and the whale God told him what He wanted (His Divine plan) but Jonah didn't want to go. so God sent a storm so that Jonah might re-think about what he was doing. and at the end of the story we know that the city Jonah preached at repented from their sins.
So I would like to say that it was intentional but it wasn't part of His Divine plan.

bismillah

Greetings,

I understand exactly what you are saying. But the only reason I ask is to whether or not the Almighty God would need a human sacrifice for sin. An 'intentional' sin at that. We are told when the offering that Cain and Abel gave to Allaah (God), Abel's offering was recieved and Cains was not.

Of course, we know why Cain's offering was rejected. Let's take a look into your Book.

God counsels Cain, "Why are you annoyed, and why has your countenance fallen? If you do good [that is, change your ways], will it not be lifted up [that is, you will be forgiven]. But if you do not do good, sin rests at the door; and it desires you, but you may rule over it" (Genesis 4:6-7).

Now, I understand the logic and implications of the Original Sin concept and its call for being rectified through another. However, Allaah (God) tells us one thing and I believe His (swt) messenger Jesus (as) did not contradict what God has sent down from the beginning of time about sincere repentance and following His (swt) guidance being able to set us aright.
 
bismillah

assalaamu alaikum', brother Isa.

We can first and foremost refer it to al Qur'an and then ahadith. Then we can analyze the Christian scripture and commentaries on each verse. Then lastly, we can read the history of Christianity from unbiased sources, but not overly evangelical sources. Thus we read that scripture was very important the Christian community, but many were illiterate.

I do not want to add a twist on the Bible, but I read it for what it is. Of course, much of it is allegorical, but where can one deduce that this was the exact message? The further that these scholars delve in order to seek the most "original" manuscripts, they find something different. Isa ibn Maryam (may he be blessed), spoke to the people and delivered his message Allaah (swt) sent with him.

Does the NT point to any scribes composing the message? Al-Qur'an tells us that each message was given to their people. For their people.
 
bismillah

...continuing...

brother Isa asked:

1. The Bible doesnt tell us of any command by Jesus to write scripture down, and from this you derive that so Jesus' message was only oral?

2.From the previous you also seem to derive that Jesus' message was wrote after his departing, I understand that from you saying "There is a major difference. The Qur'an was written in the 'lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon)."

3.You claim Jesus' message was not a new message but only a reminder/revival of Moses' message, "It was not a new message, it was a revival of the old." From what do you derive this understanding, Islamicly.



1. To answer the first question, yes. Some Christians that I speak to reiterate the same claim. Why? They take the Bible to be "infallible". That is the sole source of guidance. And to use the same logic, one can deduce and in conclusion arrive at the same end.

2. Indeed. You are correct. There were hundreds of Gospels reaccounting the life of Isa ibn Maryam (as), but with different contents. E.G. such ideas of the crucifixion, his nature, his teaching, etc.

3. "And in their footsteps We sent jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah."

5.46

"And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of an Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!"

61.6


In a sense it was 'new' it was more of a reinterpretation. He did not come to abolish all of the law. But to make the strict law more lenient.
 
bismillah

Greetings,

I understand exactly what you are saying. But the only reason I ask is to whether or not the Almighty God would need a human sacrifice for sin. An 'intentional' sin at that. We are told when the offering that Cain and Abel gave to Allaah (God), Abel's offering was recieved and Cains was not.

Of course, we know why Cain's offering was rejected. Let's take a look into your Book.

God counsels Cain, "Why are you annoyed, and why has your countenance fallen? If you do good [that is, change your ways], will it not be lifted up [that is, you will be forgiven]. But if you do not do good, sin rests at the door; and it desires you, but you may rule over it" (Genesis 4:6-7).

Now, I understand the logic and implications of the Original Sin concept and its call for being rectified through another. However, Allaah (God) tells us one thing and I believe His (swt) messenger Jesus (as) did not contradict what God has sent down from the beginning of time about sincere repentance and following His (swt) guidance being able to set us aright.

Hey Isa Abdullah,

before I try saying anything is this part a question? just wondering

God Bless,
PrIM3
 
Salam Aleykum Bro Isa,

1. To answer the first question, yes. Some Christians that I speak to reiterate the same claim. Why? They take the Bible to be "infallible". That is the sole source of guidance. And to use the same logic, one can deduce and in conclusion arrive at the same end.

I am totally lost, be patient with me, I am totally confused and do not see how this answers my question.

2. Indeed. You are correct. There were hundreds of Gospels reaccounting the life of Isa ibn Maryam (as), but with different contents. E.G. such ideas of the crucifixion, his nature, his teaching, etc.

Though there is not any Islamic text which says Jesus' message was wrote after his departure and not in his life time. Just because people started to write Gospels and so forth does not mean that Jesus' message was not written in his life time and then lost.

3. "And in their footsteps We sent jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah."

5.46

"And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of an Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!"

61.6


In a sense it was 'new' it was more of a reinterpretation. He did not come to abolish all of the law. But to make the strict law more lenient.

Again I do not see how you derive to the understanding that Jesus' message was not new as such but a carried on type of message from the Taurah to make it more linient, what gives you this Idea.

The Qu'ran from what I read says that Jesus' Injeel came to confirm the Torah, is this not the same as the Qu'ran coming to confirm the previous revelations?

I hope you can be patient with me

Salam ALeykum,

Also note to Forum, we (me and Isa) Are two different people, I hope it doesnt confuse yall.
 
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