The scientific miracles of the Quran.

[rav]

Secular records? We know that the Jewish religious texts have been corrupted, but what secular texts are you talking about?

Shalom,

Jospehus would be considered one that recorded many thoughts on the Jewish people from a secular stand point. The basic pretense on my post is that you do not know anything for certain. You of course can hold a belief that the Tanakh is corrupted based on misleading atheist websites, but it is still your belief, and you are welcome to hold that belief since Judaism is not under the opinion that it is your duty to follow the texts, nor believe in their teachings on Jewish law. With that said, peace be with you.

Deuteronomy 18:18 “I (God) will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee (Moses), and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.”

what does this mean from a Jewish perspective then?

Shalom,

I hope this explanantion will suffice:

We must ask the following: who is "I", who is "you", who is "them/their"? "I" is G-d, "you" is Moses, "them/their" refers to the Israelites.​

So a paraphrase could be: G-d will raise up for the Israelites a prophet from the Israelites' brethren some time in the future that will be like Moses and speak the words of G-d.​

Having established that, what's the connection?​

The assertion is that "from amongst their brethren" refers to the Ishmaelites, and as Muslims assert many times, Mohammed is descended from Abraham through Ishmael.​

In order to properly analyze this, I will not make a table comparing Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed, as many do on both Christian and Muslim websites in order to pervert the meaning of this verse.​

Instead, I will make a minor sidestep into the world of Jewish thought.​

For those of us that do not have the presumption that the Torah is wrong and faulty, there is a list of thirteen basic rules on how to deduce meaning from the Torah. They are provided as the introduction to Sifre, and are recited in the preliminary portion of the daily morning prayers.​

Just as in the Torah where there are laws that are obviously "just" and those that we cannot comprehend, a parallel applies here. Some rules make sense, and others are assertions of rules. I will make use of two rules that make a good deal of sense.​

Rule number 2 states quite simply "mig'zerah shavah" which means "From a decree of equality".​

Rule number 12 is that "davar halamed m'inyano, v'davar halamed m'sofo" which is often translated like "An item is taught/clarified from it's context, or from nearby verses."​

Why these two rules? Rule number 2 tells us that if we have a word in one location that is vague, and the same word elsewhere more clear, we can use one to clarify the other. The reason for the second rule will be evident shortly.​

Just a chapter back, in Deuteronomy 17, we find a similar phrase, but the voice is different. This time Moses is delivering a message from G-d directly to the Israelites, speaking to the Israelites as a single group, instead of us hearing what G-d says to Moses.

Deuteronomy 17:15 You shall put (appoint) upon yourself a king that G-d will pick him; from amongst your brethren you shall appoint a king; you will not be able to give upon yourself a foreign man that is not your brother.​

This verse, just a chapter behind the verse about the prophet is quite explicit. It uses the phrase "amongst (their/your) brethren" and then clarifies that a foreigner, which is definitely a non-Israelite, is not the Israelite's brother.

For further explicitness of the term foreigner, let's turn to Exodus 12.

Exodus 12:43 And G-d said to Moses and Aaron: This is the ordinance of the Passover offering, every son of a foreigner shall not eat of it.​

Since we can now see that a foreigner does not take part of something as central as the Passover celebration, which is incumbant on all Israelite males when the Temple stands, we can see that a foreigner is simply a non-Israelite, and it doesn't matter their genealogy.

That being said, we have also shown that a foreigner is someone who is not from "amongst the brethren" of the Israelites.

​

 

[جوري]

Do you think the Israelites never preverted the Book as you see it today? if so what is your take on these verses

How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

The Revised Standard Version makes it even clearer: "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"


Deuteronomy 31:25-29
"And it came to pass, when moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites(Jews), which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee. For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death? Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them. For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt [yourselves], and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands."

 

[Trumble]

So, in reality, we don't really know whether Mark was the sole author of this Gospel or not. And since The New Testament wasn't even documented on paper until 150-300 years (depending on what Christian you talk to) after Jesus, then how are we to know for sure that the current "Gospel of Mark" wasn't written by some pro of Mark?

That's hardly news. As to the "the actual True Word of GOD Almighty!", you seem to forget that I no more think the Bible represents that than I do that the Qur'an does.

don't delude yourself into thinking engaging you holds some remote worth in my life. If I were really interested in such topics as the intensity you display, I'd most likely make birds fly around your head.

I very much doubt it, you have shown few signs of such a talent. And it might involve actually sticking to the point. However, I do consider you more fun to debate with than most here; but perhaps it's time to move on to something of more 'worth' to both of us.

As you say, "peace".

 

[rav]

Do you think the Israelites never preverted the Book as you see it today? if so what is your take on these verses

How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

The Revised Standard Version makes it even clearer: "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"


Deuteronomy 31:25-29
"And it came to pass, when moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites(Jews), which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee. For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death? Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them. For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt [yourselves], and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands."

Two of the most taken out of context and misunderstood quotes you could have presented.

I will explain to you the meaning of both at length, but I currently have religious obligations to fufill, therefore I will expalin them to you very clearly when I get back ina few hours. I thank you in advance for your patients.

 

[tresbien]

Please listen to me carefully with openeness and impartiality.Forget that you are muslims,christains , jews or whatever religion you belong to. We are not here to accuse one the other or blame each other.We should join hands and be cooperative to attain safety and achieve happiness.This universe does not come at random.There is one has created it and make it subject to us.
We benefit from the sun ,the rain , the wind , animals.what a nice shoes you have. Let have an outing and breathe a fresh air.The flowers and plants give away beautiful scent .Why snow is not black but white.Why my sister you were born female.Why you were born male. Why we have only too feet.How come human have a brain and animal instinct and no thought.Why we speak different languages.Why we have one tongue.Why we die .Why we sleep.DO all of these come by chance .If there were three or other deities .How would be our life.Why we leave the true God and worship others.Why we invoke others who can not hear us and if they hear us will they respond.If a person is given miracles by God ?which one shall we ask help.The Giver or receiver?

Let no satan laught at us and mislead us with empty promises.As there exist other creatures on earth who are living, he has his own world that we do not see.Even with our sophisticated techonolgy we have not discoved all the creatures that live on earth or underwater.

 

[جوري]

Two of the most taken out of context and misunderstood quotes you could have presented.

I will explain to you the meaning of both at length, but I currently have religious obligations to fufill, therefore I will expalin them to you very clearly when I get back ina few hours. I thank you in advance for your patients.

Salaam 'Alykoum Rav:

My beliefs aren't contingent on yours being a preamble of monotheism so to speak -- unless I wished to extend duw'a to you, which I don't.. Though I have read the Torah, I am no where as familiar with it or its jurisprudence as I am with the Quran.. And even that is an ongoing learning experience!

with the best of intentions I write that you don't have to defend your position as per Moses' Quotes.. the topic is of scientific miracles in the Quran, not how can you believe The Torah to be absolute when according to such verses it has been tampered with. You may address them if you still so please under the Judaism thread at your own leisure- where you don't have to ask for patience or worry? about incurring some verbal lashing...

I am usually such a delight to be around :X

Peace!

 

[rav]

Salaam 'Alykoum Rav:

My beliefs aren't contingent on yours being a preamble of monotheism so to speak -- unless I wished to extend duw'a to you, which I don't.. Though I have read the Torah, I am no where as familiar with it or its jurisprudence as I am with the Quran.. And even that is an ongoing learning experience!

with the best of intentions I write that you don't have to defend your position as per Moses' Quotes.. the topic is of scientific miracles in the Quran, not how can you believe The Torah to be absolute when according to such verses it has been tampered with. You may address them if you still so please under the Judaism thread at your own leisure- where you don't have to ask for patience or worry? about incurring some verbal lashing...

I am usually such a delight to be around :X

Peace!

I insist on answering them though. :statisfie Let me ask you, why do you not want to extend "duwa" to me, and what exactly is it? :?

Anyway:

About your "false pen" theory, I would like to answer it for any Jew who questions the verses sake.

False pen?

Not exactly. It is closer to "the pen of the scribe is in vain."


Koren translation:

How can you say, We are wise, and the Tora of the L-RD is with us? Surely, the pen wrought in vain, in vain the scribes. The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of the L-RD; and what wisdom is in them?​

They rejected Torah -- so they have no wisdom. THAT is the point.


Kimchi put it this way:

If G-d's torah is with you, of what use is it if you observe it not!!! He who used the pen to write did so in vain. . . likewise...the futility [shekher] of the scribes. They have written it in vain. Since you observe it not, it is as if it weren't written..... "LA-SHEKHER".....[this means] in vain as [in the verse] " Truly in vain have I heeded..."​

They didn't heed to the Torah, so their study and writng is in vain.

As for the other claim, would you like a very long explanation and analysis, interconnected with Talmudic values, or the readers digest version?

 

[جوري]

I insist on answering them though.
:statisfie

lol-- fair enough and thank you!

Let me ask you, why do you not want to extend "duwa" to me, and what exactly is it? :?

I don't think you'd accept my dawa for the following reasons:
to extend it would involve that I have some in depth knowledge of the Torah... when I have so admitted that I only have very superficial knowledge of it... further compounded by my on ongoing quest to perfect my own religion, in other words I am no scholar and I admit it-- making an extension of duwa'a to you not only an impossibility but a frank transgression of my sphere of expertise... I can't convince a man with a cut and paste job... we have some talented members who can do that though and unfortunately they are not participating at the moment..

Anyway:

About your "false pen" theory, I would like to answer it for any Jew who questions the verses sake.

False pen?

Not exactly. It is closer to "the pen of the scribe is in vain."


Koren translation:

How can you say, We are wise, and the Tora of the L-RD is with us? Surely, the pen wrought in vain, in vain the scribes. The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of the L-RD; and what wisdom is in them?​

They rejected Torah -- so they have no wisdom. THAT is the point.


Kimchi put it this way:

If G-d's torah is with you, of what use is it if you observe it not!!! He who used the pen to write did so in vain. . . likewise...the futility [shekher] of the scribes. They have written it in vain. Since you observe it not, it is as if it weren't written..... "LA-SHEKHER".....[this means] in vain as [in the verse] " Truly in vain have I heeded..."​

They didn't heed to the Torah, so their study and writng is in vain.

As for the other claim, would you like a very long explanation and analysis, interconnected with Talmudic values, or the readers digest version?

I can't argue a belief with another, It will be a very expansive topic, ...but given your kind temperament, I'll accept your explanation and not further argue against it...

Aslaam Alykoum
peace

 

[rav]

I don't think you'd accept my dawa for the following reasons:
to extend it would involve that I have some in depth knowledge of the Torah... when I have so admitted that I only have very superficial knowledge of it... further compounded by my on ongoing quest to perfect my own religion, in other words I am no scholar and I admit it-- making an extension of duwa'a to you not only an impossibility but a frank transgression of my sphere of expertise... I can't convince a man with a cut and paste job... we have some talented members who can do that though and unfortunately they are not participating at the moment..

Shalom,

Cool, but what is "Dawa"?

 

[جوري]

Shalom,

Cool, but what is "Dawa"?

;D it means an invitation to be one of us

 

[rav]

;D it means an invitation to be one of us

Shalom,

Oh, lol, for some reason I thought I heard of the word, but I thought of it as respect. I was like, why can't she give me respect? :-[ My bad, reading over your posts now it seems like a silly thought since replacing "dawa" with "respect" makes no sense.

 

[جوري]

lol... you have my respect... in fact you've earned it =)

English - Arabic
invitation noun call , appeal , the process of inviting or fact of being invited , esp. to a social occasion

اِسْتِحْلاف , تَحْلِيف , دَعْوَة ​

دَعْوَة ​

by itself an invitation though we mean it, in a religious sense...

 

[Muslim Knight]

Shalom,

Oh, lol, for some reason I thought I heard of the word, but I thought of it as respect. I was like, why can't she give me respect? :-[ My bad, reading over your posts now it seems like a silly thought since replacing "dawa" with "respect" makes no sense.

Da'wah can be a sign of respect, if compared to indoctrination and forcing one's view unto others. We tell you what our religion means, that is peace, and invite you to think rationally and spiritually, and see the beauty of it.

 

[rav]

Okay thank PurestAmbrosia. It has been nice speaking to you. May G-d strengthen your belief and happiness in this world. May you continue to follow G-d by following the seven laws of Noah which Islam in its beauty teaches, and may you gain spiritual satisfaction from your belief.

 

[جوري]

Da'wah can be a sign of respect, if compared to indoctrination and forcing one's view unto others. We tell you what our religion means, that is peace, and invite you to think rationally and spiritually, and see the beauty of it.

إِنَّكَ لا تَهْدِي مَنْ أَحْبَبْتَ وَلَكِنَّ اللَّهَ يَهْدِي مَنْ يَشَاءُ وَهُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِالْمُهْتَدِينَ ​

28.56

 

[- Qatada -]

Is there any authentic literature that states he didn't? In what everyone keeps saying was an illiterate society both seem equally unlikely. The point surely is that he might have done. A complete denial of that possibility can only be a faith based position. And before PA starts off again, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with faith based postions!

I've been over the two famous Seerah's, one by Ibn Isshaaq, and the other by Ibn Kathir in his Al-Bidaayah wal-Nihaayah [the Beginning and the End.] And within them there are no mention of Allaah's Messenger (peace be upon him) talking to jews within Makkah or having any contact with them. And Allaah knows best.


Regards.

 

[Hemoo]

in Sahih Bukhary :

Volumn 004, Book 055, Hadith Number 605.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By 'Aisha : The Prophet returned to Khadija while his heart was beating rapidly. She took him to Waraqa bin Naufal who was a Christian convert and used to read the Gospels in Arabic Waraqa asked (the Prophet), "What do you see?" When he told him, Waraqa said, "That is the same angel whom Allah sent to the Prophet) Moses. Should I live till you receive the Divine Message, I will support you strongly."


&

a long narration also in bukhary :

Volumn 001, Book 001, Hadith Number 003.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By 'Aisha : (The mother of the faithful believers) The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Apostle was in the form of good dreams which came true like bright day light, and then the love of seclusion was bestowed upon him. He used to go in seclusion in the cave of Hira where he used to worship (Allah alone) continuously for many days before his desire to see his family. He used to take with him the journey food for the stay and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read."
The Prophet added, "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, 'I do not know how to read.' Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, 'I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?' Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said, 'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created (all that exists) has created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous." (96.1, 96.2, 96.3) Then Allah's Apostle returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely. Then he went to Khadija bint Khuwailid and said, "Cover me! Cover me!" They covered him till his fear was over and after that he told her everything that had happened and said, "I fear that something may happen to me." Khadija replied, "Never! By Allah, Allah will never disgrace you. You keep good relations with your Kith and kin, help the poor and the destitute, serve your guests generously and assist the deserving calamity-afflicted ones."
Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the PreIslamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to Waraqa, "Listen to the story of your nephew, O my cousin!" Waraqa asked, "O my nephew! What have you seen?" Allah's Apostle described whatever he had seen. Waraqa said, "This is the same one who keeps the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." Allah's Apostle asked, "Will they drive me out?" Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said, "Anyone (man) who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated with hostility; and if I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly." But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while.
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah Al-Ansari while talking about the period of pause in revelation reporting the speech of the Prophet "While I was walking, all of a sudden I heard a voice from the sky. I looked up and saw the same angel who had visited me at the cave of Hira' sitting on a chair between the sky and the earth. I got afraid of him and came back home and said, 'Wrap me (in blankets).' And then Allah revealed the following Holy Verses (of Quran):
'O you (i.e. Muhammad)! wrapped up in garments!' Arise and warn (the people against Allah's Punishment),... up to 'and desert the idols.' (74.1-5) After this the revelation started coming strongly, frequently and regularly."
------------------------------------------------------------------------

but it is obvious in the hadith that he only meet Waraqa for a little time to ask him about the revelation that came to him and he didn't have the time to learn from him any thing about judaism or christianity.

 

[جوري]

I have long wondered about the fate of "Waraqa bin Naufal" he didn't in fact live long enough to support prophet Mohammed PBUH-- did prophet Mohammed (PBUH) say anything about him after he passed??
thanks by the way great post!

 

[- Qatada -]

I have long wondered about the fate of "Waraqa bin Naufal" he didn't in fact live long enough to support prophet Mohammed PBUH-- did prophet Mohammed (PBUH) say anything about him after he passed??
thanks by the way great post!

:salamext:


Waraqah ibn Nawfal

Al-Haakim reported with a saheeh isnaad from 'Aa'ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) that the Messenger of Allaah (salAllaahu alayhi waSalam) said, "Do not slander Waraqah ibn Nawfal for I have seen that he will have one or two gardens in Paradise"

[Saheeh al-Jaami as-Sagheer, 6/1534, no. 7197]


Waraqah believed in the Prophet (sal Allaahu alayhi waSalam) when Khadeejah brought him to him at the beginning of his Call; he had asked Allaah to let him live until he saw His final Messenger so that he could support him. But Waraqah died really soon after the first revelation.

http://www.islamicboard.com/617640-post35.html
​

 

[جوري]

Sobhan Allah akhi.. when I first read his story, I was really very concerned... it seems he was a Theist but was greatly disenchanted with both Judaism and Christianity at the time, and I don't believe he practiced either-- and unfortunately didn't hang around to support Prophet Mohammed as he had hoped.
Thanks for sharing that, I appreciate you finding it =)