America , we feel ur pain , do u feel ours ?

[Muslim Woman]

But what irritates me , is how you continou to say " iraqis killing iraqis" ...............IF it were soley the case that Iraqis and killing themselves then american soliders would have no need to be over there.

Funny how they werent "killing" themsleves beforehand.

good point

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace ,

That is not true......The Marxist FMLA in Colombia are often called terrorists

---ok , Insha Allah , i will try to collect info about it....but it will take time. I have noticed several times while reading newspaper about using extremists to describe Muslims while non-Muslims were not lebelled the same.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Salaam/peace ,




---ok , Insha Allah , i will try to collect info about it....but it will take time. I have noticed several times while reading newspaper about using extremists to describe Muslims while non-Muslims were not lebelled the same.

I think the others above answered the questions you put to me. So, I will just spend a little time on this one.

I will grant you that I see more of this now. Our press is far from perfect. Some are better than others. Some of just the paid mouths of the administration or anti-administration activitist or activitists of various other causes. The one thing that the press is NOT in the USA is monolithic.

Until terrorism touched the US directly, beginning I think with the bombing of the barracks in Lebanon, now about 20 years ago (wow, how old am I to remember that as if it were recent history?), one did see the press write about Palestinians as freedom-fighters. But you are probably right, the other wording has become more frequent. Though, it is not just Muslims that are called terrorists, and certainly not all Muslims are called terrorists either.

--nope

i think , Muslim Sis is from there [Pakistan]. But i don't live far away from Pakistan , u may take another guess , if u want

Afghanistan?
Tajikstan?
India?
Iran?

Tell me when I get close.

 

[Pygoscelis]

IM AMAZED that this "murder" was only called SUCH. how sly this flithy country really is. Because he was KOREAN and not ARAB or MIDDLE EASTERN he was labeled and MURDER! excuse me , but does ANYONE know CHOY THE MURDER's religion? NO! no one does. BECAUSE WHY? BECAUSE HE WASNT MUSLIM....so CHOY is merely a MURDER, NOT A TERRIOST! like any middle easterner who would have done the same would have been.

He compared himself to Christ. I'm suprised the media didn't pick up on that and call him a christian terrorist But no, he wasn't a terrorist, regardless of his religion. A terrorist is somebody who terrorizes people with some goal or political aim. This man had none. He just wanted to kill people from what I can tell.

 

[Grace Seeker]

IM AMAZED that this "murder" was only called SUCH. how sly this flithy country really is. Because he was KOREAN and not ARAB or MIDDLE EASTERN he was labeled and MURDER! excuse me , but does ANYONE know CHOY THE MURDER's religion? NO! no one does. BECAUSE WHY? BECAUSE HE WASNT MUSLIM....so CHOY is merely a MURDER, NOT A TERRIOST! like any middle easterner who would have done the same would have been.

Your argument seems to be:
The USA is a sly filthy country.
Proof of that can be found in the different labels given to Cho vs. Middle Easterners who kill people.
Middle Easterners are called terrorists, but Cho was only called a murder.


But, you are in error.
First, many people have said that what Cho did was terrorism:

"the Virginia Tech shootings were acts of terrorism" -- Calgary Herald

"What’s the difference between Cho Seung-Hui and the many hundreds if not thousands of Palestinian and Islamic terrorists worldwide? It’s a three-word answer: choice of weapon. Everything else is the same." -- NewMediaJournal

"Cho's mental illness should have blocked gun sale...which would have prevented yet another act of terrorism." --Terrorism Research Center

"any thinking American knows that what Cho Seung-Hui did was an act of terrorism" -- Canada Free Press

"Cho represents the orthodox terrorist where he becomes the 'one man show'." --The Right Angle Blog

"Terrorizing and Killing people ruthlessly is an act of terrorism and the ones who commit these acts are the terrorists." --Scoop Independent News



Second, you are in error that Middle Easterners (nor for that matter other Muslims) are automatically labelled as terrorists. A few cases in point.

The 2004 murder of filmmaker Theo Van Gogh on the streets of Amsterdam was motivated by the filmmaker's expressions of hostility toward radical Islam. He was killed, in broad daylight and in front of witnesses, by a young man of Moroccan origin who gave as his reasoning a desire for jihad. Yet, no one used the term "terrorism" to describe it.


On February 13, 2006 French citizen Ilan Halimi was found dying, covered with burns and cuts. According to reports in the French press, some of the suspects, Muslim men, confessed that they tortured Halimi with particular cruelty simply because he was Jewish. And yet, this was not labelled terrorism.


Or do you remember the huge outcry in Brussels over the murder of a Belgian student, who was allegedy killed by two North African Muslim thugs in a train station over a MP3 player? 80,000 protested in Brussels, Belgium; but the words terrorist were never used.


And even more recently, in January 2007, there was a grisly murder of the entire Armanious family in Jersey City, New Jersey. Among the suspects in the case were Muslims, and the murders were believed to have been religiously motivated -- Hossam Armanious was a Christian Coptic well-known in the area for engaging in hated confrontations with Muslims over conflicts between Christianity and Islam -- yet there are no accusations of terrorism mentioned. Further, the police did not settle on the Islamic suspects and try to stick them with the conviction, rather the case was thoroughly investigated and eventually clearing the Muslim suspects.


So there you have a small selection of events in recent history and in several countries, including the USA, in which Muslims have been suspects in murders but were not labelled terrorists. You have Cho being labelled a terrorist. Your assumptions are false. I suspect that the point your were trying to make is false as well, and can only be substantiated by faulty thinking.

 

[Cognescenti]

Your argument seems to be:
The USA is a sly filthy country.
Proof of that can be found in the different labels given to Cho vs. Middle Easterners who kill people.
Middle Easterners are called terrorists, but Cho was only called a murder.


But, you are in error.
First, many people have said that what Cho did was terrorism:

"the Virginia Tech shootings were acts of terrorism" -- Calgary Herald

"What’s the difference between Cho Seung-Hui and the many hundreds if not thousands of Palestinian and Islamic terrorists worldwide? It’s a three-word answer: choice of weapon. Everything else is the same." -- NewMediaJournal

"Cho's mental illness should have blocked gun sale...which would have prevented yet another act of terrorism." --Terrorism Research Center

"any thinking American knows that what Cho Seung-Hui did was an act of terrorism" -- Canada Free Press

"Cho represents the orthodox terrorist where he becomes the 'one man show'." --The Right Angle Blog

"Terrorizing and Killing people ruthlessly is an act of terrorism and the ones who commit these acts are the terrorists." --Scoop Independent News



Second, you are in error that Middle Easterners (nor for that matter other Muslims) are automatically labelled as terrorists. A few cases in point.

The 2004 murder of filmmaker Theo Van Gogh on the streets of Amsterdam was motivated by the filmmaker's expressions of hostility toward radical Islam. He was killed, in broad daylight and in front of witnesses, by a young man of Moroccan origin who gave as his reasoning a desire for jihad. Yet, no one used the term "terrorism" to describe it.


On February 13, 2006 French citizen Ilan Halimi was found dying, covered with burns and cuts. According to reports in the French press, some of the suspects, Muslim men, confessed that they tortured Halimi with particular cruelty simply because he was Jewish. And yet, this was not labelled terrorism.


Or do you remember the huge outcry in Brussels over the murder of a Belgian student, who was allegedy killed by two North African Muslim thugs in a train station over a MP3 player? 80,000 protested in Brussels, Belgium; but the words terrorist were never used.


And even more recently, in January 2007, there was a grisly murder of the entire Armanious family in Jersey City, New Jersey. Among the suspects in the case were Muslims, and the murders were believed to have been religiously motivated -- Hossam Armanious was a Christian Coptic well-known in the area for engaging in hated confrontations with Muslims over conflicts between Christianity and Islam -- yet there are no accusations of terrorism mentioned. Further, the police did not settle on the Islamic suspects and try to stick them with the conviction, rather the case was thoroughly investigated and eventually clearing the Muslim suspects.


So there you have a small selection of events in recent history and in several countries, including the USA, in which Muslims have been suspects in murders but were not labelled terrorists. You have Cho being labelled a terrorist. Your assumptions are false. I suspect that the point your were trying to make is false as well, and can only be substantiated by faulty thinking.

Wow...Grace Seeker...that was a compelling argument. Very well researched, delivered succinctly and with fairness. If I were on the opposite side of the debate, I think I would feign temporary mutism rather than rise to dispute you.

 

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,

This may be out of topic,,but...

For me,as an asian i do not understand why the South Korean goverment or any asian coutnry must send condolences to the US ..

Why simple..CHO is a US citizen,his family migrated there.
The US should apologise to all those who were killed by the US citizen.

So why is the fact that CHo is south korean more important than him being a US citizen??

 

[MTAFFI]

Salaam,

This may be out of topic,,but...

For me,as an asian i do not understand why the South Korean goverment or any asian coutnry must send condolences to the US ..

Why simple..CHO is a US citizen,his family migrated there.
The US should apologise to all those who were killed by the US citizen.

So why is the fact that CHo is south korean more important than him being a US citizen??

I didnt know that it was? Can you show where this has been an issue? I saw that the Korean government sent condolences but as far as I know they werent asked or even looked to for such.

I will say again, America is its own nation, we dont need anyone to say they are sorry for what goes on in our country, and we dont need anyone to feel our pain, why would you anyways it really isnt anyone elses business. As far as feeling sorry for those in Iraq, I feel for them too, but this happened on our soil, so dont expect our country to not cover it in the media and pay a lot of attention to it, because our country will always come first to those of us who live here and love to live here.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Salaam,

This may be out of topic,,but...

For me,as an asian i do not understand why the South Korean goverment or any asian coutnry must send condolences to the US ..

Why simple..CHO is a US citizen,his family migrated there.
The US should apologise to all those who were killed by the US citizen.

So why is the fact that CHo is south korean more important than him being a US citizen??

I agree with you. It wasn't necessary. I suppose it is a cultural thing that they themselves felt compelled to say something. Though it should be noted that he was not a US citizen, but a permament resident alien.

 

[Zulkiflim]

I didnt know that it was? Can you show where this has been an issue? I saw that the Korean government sent condolences but as far as I know they werent asked or even looked to for such.

I will say again, America is its own nation, we dont need anyone to say they are sorry for what goes on in our country, and we dont need anyone to feel our pain, why would you anyways it really isnt anyone elses business. As far as feeling sorry for those in Iraq, I feel for them too, but this happened on our soil, so dont expect our country to not cover it in the media and pay a lot of attention to it, because our country will always come first to those of us who live here and love to live here.

Salaam,

Actually i expected the US goverment to apologize to those killed by Cho.

But it is otherwise.
Pretty sad that,those asina whom have died under the gun of Cho who was inflicted by western culture and bias.

It just dont make sense that any nation should send condolonces to the US.
Just surprising ..

 

[Zulkiflim]

I agree with you. It wasn't necessary. I suppose it is a cultural thing that they themselves felt compelled to say something. Though it should be noted that he was not a US citizen, but a permament resident alien.

Salaam,

thanks for that ,,did not know that.

But for the asina side,it was crazy,the Korean could not believe one of their own did this.
They even went so far as to go and dig up cho old neighbours,his old home .


For us here in Singapore,we have a debate going on on why is Cho identified as a Koren killer rahter than an American killer.

It briongs up another topic here,of how the US kept all Japanese americans in camps during the ww2 due to distrust and malice.

Maybe CHo problem is adaptation,but the main issue is HOW MUCH DOES CHO HAVE TO CHAGE TO BE ACCEPTED AS AN AMERICAN,,or any person..

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace ,

Afghanistan?

Tajikstan?

India?

Iran?


Tell me when I get close

haha :statisfie normally i give people 3 chances but as u r close in ur 1st 3 guesses , ok , 1 more chance


a hint: u may say that elders in my country ' enjoyed' 3 different citizenship without moving to other country

......

"What’s the difference between Cho Seung-Hui and the many hundreds if not thousands of Palestinian and Islamic terrorists worldwide? It’s a three-word answer: choice of weapon. Everything else is the same." -- NewMediaJournal




---how do u explain the words i highlighted ? Thousands of Palestians -----these oprressed people were compared with a killer ......why ??



what about the term Islamic terrorists.... ( how often do we hear Christian , Jewish , Hindu or Buddist terrorists ?



About 3 yrs back , many Muslims were burnt alive in India ... i saw picture of those burnt bodies ....horrible.....just horrible or more than that.

It was alleged that Muslims killed ...say 50 hindu train passengers. Let's agree that really Muslims killed 50 hindus ...but the question is : while taking revenge , how many Muslims should be murdered ? If we apply eye for an eye , tooth for a tooth criteria , then hindus had right to kill 50 Muslims ....but what happened there ?




Several Muslims areas came under attacked .......more than 1 thousand were brutally killed.

Muslim pregnant women were gang raped & terrorists cut their stomach & threw the unborn babies in fire . Later , it was said that terrorists wanted to make the area Muslim free ; so they set up the fire & intentionally targetted Muslims including pregnant women....it was reported by the probe committe.



A Muslim MP's house came under attack & police did not rescue him .....either he or his minor son died.... BBC Radio reported like that angry mob attacked.......) .


May be , in some news items , they used the term Hindu Fundamenalists but repeatedly they used the word unruly , angry etc. I don't remember if they used the term Hindu terrorists. Anybody remembers this incident ?




Everything else is the same-----how ? Anybody physically tortured Cho ? killed his family members ? Raped his sis , put his bro or dad in custody for years without trial ? Shoot his little bro for throwing stone ? Destryoed his home or occupied his land ??

On February 13, 2006 French citizen Ilan Halimi ..... According to reports in the French press, some of the suspects, Muslim men, confessed ....And yet, this was not labelled terrorism..

--Thanks God ...at least some journalists are becoming conscious about their responsibilities. Unless proven guilty , press must not identify anyone as a criminal .



Also , under police custody if people confess anything , this thought comes in to mind that may be they were tortoured to admit that.

80,000 protested in Brussels, Belgium; but the words terrorist were never used.

---woowww , a very positive sign. Someone should write an article about the change of the mentality :statisfie

And even more recently, in January 2007.....eventually clearing the Muslim suspects.

---who is the culprit ?

 

[snakelegs]

Salaam/peace ,

About 3 yrs back , many Muslims were burnt alive in India ... i saw picture of those burnt bodies ....horrible.....just horrible or more than that.

"terrorists" would be a good word for the hindutva thugs that carry out pogroms. (except they often get police protection).

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace ,

".....(except they often get police protection).

police told something like that : we were not given orders to protect Muslims.


I guess , it's time to set up an exchange values of lives. In future , if Muslims kill 1 non-Muslim , others will get right to kill .... say.....5 , 20 , 30 or 50 Muslims.....not more than that.

sounds crazy / illogical ???

I don't think so .

At least we will hopefully be able to stop invading 2 countries based on 1 tragedy.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace ,


about media's role ( relating crime with religion ) .....1 more example: hope everybody is not tired already +o(

sometimes media don't directly tell that Muslims are bad but they represent Muslim Characters in the media negatively , thus spread the message that Islam is bad.



about 2 years back , i watched last half of a movie.......i guess American movie ....it was a comedy type. A man's wife & daugther are pregnant almost at a same time.....his daughter daily complains about pain & he takes her to hospital , then comes back , again at night goes & come back.

1 night his daughter assures that there is no pain , so dad took very strong pill , fall asleep & then both his wife & daughter went to hospital & had labour pain , needed operation.......a very funny movie.

There was no need to include any Muslim character at all. But the writer /director did that . The only villain in the movie was a Muslim businessman who bought the house of the dad & refused to give it back. That bad man scolded wife in front of others & the poor , opressed Muslim woman did not protest.


These 2 Muslims characters gave the idea to non-Muslims that surely all Muslim husbands oppress their wives.

I was thinking why the writer/ director did that ? Was it intentional ?

 

[Grace Seeker]

Salaam,

thanks for that ,,did not know that.

But for the asina side,it was crazy,the Korean could not believe one of their own did this.
They even went so far as to go and dig up cho old neighbours,his old home .


For us here in Singapore,we have a debate going on on why is Cho identified as a Koren killer rahter than an American killer.

It briongs up another topic here,of how the US kept all Japanese americans in camps during the ww2 due to distrust and malice.

Maybe CHo problem is adaptation,but the main issue is HOW MUCH DOES CHO HAVE TO CHAGE TO BE ACCEPTED AS AN AMERICAN,,or any person..

Actually, the bit as to why Cho is identified as Korean and not American is pretty easy, and two-fold.

The first you already got from my prior post. Cho was not an American. He was a Korean citizen even though he lived in the USA for more than 2/3 of his life.

The second reason is that the USA is all hung up of ethnicity. When the census is taken, when you sign almost any government document, when you regester for school there are questions about one's ethnic background. For all of our diversity, the USA is not a melting pot (though that is the image sometimes used) we are more like a stew, all sorts of things through in one pot and mix together in a common broth. So, people are identified as African-American, Mexican-American, Native-American, or Korean. In fact, I am considered Irish, though I have ancestory from more than half a dozen different countries, and some of my ancestors have been here for more than 400 years.

Except for Native-Americans, everyone came here from someplace else, and we often identify each other this way. When someone is still in an immigrant status, you can be sure it will be mentioned.


On the other hand, my son came here as a refugee from Vietnam as a teenager before being placed in our family. He has since become a naturalized citizen. And though he still speaks English with a very thick accent (so thick even I have trouble understanding him on the telephone), there is no question that he and his children are indeed Americans. Yet Hoa's wife is still Vietnamese as she hasn't completed her citizenship papers yet (not that it makes any difference to us). So, it goes both ways, and it just depends on what one is talking about whether ethnic origins make any difference or not.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Salaam/peace ,


about media's role ( relating crime with religion ) .....1 more example: hope everybody is not tired already +o(

sometimes media don't directly tell that Muslims are bad but they represent Muslim Characters in the media negatively , thus spread the message that Islam is bad.



about 2 years back , i watched last half of a movie.......i guess American movie ....it was a comedy type. A man's wife & daugther are pregnant almost at a same time.....his daughter daily complains about pain & he takes her to hospital , then comes back , again at night goes & come back.

1 night his daughter assures that there is no pain , so dad took very strong pill , fall asleep & then both his wife & daughter went to hospital & had labour pain , needed operation.......a very funny movie.

There was no need to include any Muslim character at all. But the writer /director did that . The only villain in the movie was a Muslim businessman who bought the house of the dad & refused to give it back. That bad man scolded wife in front of others & the poor , opressed Muslim woman did not protest.


These 2 Muslims characters gave the idea to non-Muslims that surely all Muslim husbands oppress their wives.

I was thinking why the writer/ director did that ? Was it intentional ?

Sure it was intentional. They were going for cheap laughs.

Watch a Jackie Chan movie, Hong Kong actor who writes and produces his own movies, he will also take advantage of various stereotypes, of his own culture, of American culture, and of about anyone's culture, just to get a cheap laugh. Others do it to play off of fears. And of course stereotyping really is just a form of prejudice and something we should reject whenever we see it.

Yet, in truth, I think we are all guilty of it, not just movie makers. I noticed this of myself the other day. I was walking down the streets of a large city late at night when I heard footsteps behind me. I looked over my shoulder and saw a black man following me (I happen to be white), and so I kept checking where he was as I walked along just to be safe in case he wanted to hold me up, which of course he never did. Later I thought about it. Would I have acted the same if it had been a white woman? I don't think so. Yet, the risk to me would have been the same if a white woman had wanted to hold me up. So, I was acting both racist and sexist at the time.

Indeed, isn't making any judgment about the rest of America, or even about all America media based on one's experience with a select few the equivalence of prejudging all that one has not yet experienced.

 

[Amadeus85]

Salaam/peace;




---ya , a very good point. Media ALWAYS relate crime with religion when even the accused person is a Muslim. Media don't do the same when the proved criminal is a non-Muslim. LOL

You just dont see the point i think. Media relate crime with religion when religion is somehow connected with the crime. For example terroristic attacks in London or Madrit were caused in the name of Jihad.Just like 9/11 attacks. Do we like it or not, religion was a motivation to those crimes. Thats why faith of those terrorists was mentioned. If from example those attacks were made bu christians in the name of christian religion, it would be mentioned and underlined too. Its not important if a crime is done by a muslim, christian or a jew.Important is if the religion was a motivation ot the crime.

 

[Amadeus85]

....While mournig over 32 deaths , do u think Americans should also remember those who are dying daily for /under their occupation ? Or is it mean to ask them to do so ?

......Think about it one last time. Thirty different Virginia Tech size shootings in one day. Day after day.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cenk-uygur/imagine-if-the-virginia-t_b_46134.html


---u may also add these while understanding the purpose of the thread :

say if any Iraqi asks u , how more innocent people including kids should die in Iraq to get the same media coverage like VT tragedy ..... What will be ur answer ?





How many Americans while feeling pain & sorrow for Iraqi people also thought '' we are not doing anything/much to stop the war '' ? Only feel pain of others is not enough , we must do something etc , etc.

I am sorry to say this but i want to express my own opinion about this. I have a friend from Egypt and we both discussed very much about the palestinian-jew conflict.And this friend always talked very emotionally about arabic victims of this conflict, especially during the war in Lebanon.During this tragic conflict in Lebanon against Hesbollah hundreds of Lebanons died.Which is a tragedy of course.But i wondered then and i asked my friend- hasen't she heard what is hapenning near Egypt, in Sudan..In Darfur conflict about 250 thousands of people were killed. And what?...Victims of Darfur die in silence every day.Im sorry to say this but aren't victims of Lebanon war of palestinian intifada more valuable for many muslims than victims of Darfur?..Lebanon war was in media highlights every day, and tv showed many tragedies of Lebanon's people, and many muslims made marches againts this conflict. They were orgaines immediately after the war was began. Was the same with Darfur?..

 

[Cognescenti]

"terrorists" would be a good word for the hindutva thugs that carry out pogroms. (except they often get police protection).

I think you used the perfect word yourself. What you are describing is a pogrom