al-Qaida in Iraq

[MTAFFI]

The Numb3rs themselves aren't at issue here. One day the U.S. will lead the body count and a month later the Mujahideen will take the lead. It can change, so it's pointless to follow the body count. It's about how the agression is justified.

I think most of your comments have been answered by others but I see that this one has been left for me. I find this to be a full blown lie, misrepresentation or form of ignorance. The US civilian body count in Iraq since the fall of Saddam has never been higher than that of your holy warriors. NEVER. The body count of civilians killed by the "holy warriors", which is apparently justified in your eyes, is much higher than that of the US civilian body count. There is absolutely no arguing about that, basically your whole paragraph is nonsense.

*Do you ever think that the reason you are going back to the drawing board for the 1000th time is because you are wrong. Try a different angle, the groups in Iraq are not from Iraq, they may have been asked to come by a few Iraqis extremist but are not wanted by the general population. In fact, they are wanted much much less in iraq than the US troops.

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

Sunni – shia hatreds are ancient hatreds that date back centuries.

Yes, yes... the Shia opened the gates of Baghdad and the Sunnis defended Kaab al Ahbar. I am well aware of the thousand issues that have yet to be resolved between the "in-laws" of Islam. In Babylon there was a Council to deal with this, and if I have my way with this, that Council will be re-instated. The only thing preventing this from taking place in Iraq today, is Bush!

The Iraqi’s voted for a government. Their choice was a government not favored by the Bush Administration.

Oh really? You mean to tell me all of Iraq was ready for an election campaign in the space of time that was given to them? I'd like to see America pull that time frame off... we'd save a fortune in election campaign expenses! Come to that, if America were a true democracy, then our president would merely represent whatever race out-bred us. Correct me if I'm wrong, but white men are definately in the minority and would never have enough votes to continue their presidential successions, over and over again. So, time will tell on that issue... but this still causes problems. I'm not actually disagreeing with you, btw. Just trying to relay a point of view. I've used Bush as a perfect example of the blessings of democracy. For instance, had it not been for democracy we'd be stuck with that MF for the duration of his life. Because of democracy, his days are numb3red. Before you know it, he won't be in a position to "veto" anything.

The use of white phosphorous was limited and was expressly intended to route out your holy warrior™ heroes. The fact that they intentionally hide among the civilian population, using women and children as human shields is unfortunate but something we regularly see.

Limited? Are you kidding me? The Hiroshima bomb was limited too.

These are weapons used with the specific intent to cause as much death, destruction and misery as possible. The fact is, it’s only for lack of “better” weapons that prevents your holy warriors from slaughtering on a grander scale.

Infamous quotes: "There will not be a safe place in Baghdad," said one Pentagon official who has been briefed on the plan (Shock and Awe).

"The sheer size of this (Shock and Awe) has never been seen before, never been contemplated before," the official said.

By that I mean you get rid of their power, water. In 2,3,4,5 days they are physically, emotionally and psychologically exhausted," Ullman tells Martin.

Excuse me, but I repeat: The Bush Administration is accusing the Iraqi fighters (and their allies) of behaving... like Bush!

The Democrats are already posturing to put an end to America’s involvement in this. I’ll suggest a small wager. When the U.S. does pull out of Iraq and the carnage begins in earnest, I’m betting you and others will be whining about how the U.S. abandoned Iraq and thus caused the continuing sunni – shia slaughter.

I'll take that bet. While the democrats posture for their position, I'm busy with my own... a reconciliation plan that will grant Amnesty and resurrect that council.

The Ninth Scribe

 

[MTAFFI]

Yes, yes... the Shia opened the gates of Baghdad and the Sunnis defended Kaab al Ahbar. I am well aware of the thousand issues that have yet to be resolved between the "in-laws" of Islam. In Babylon there was a Council to deal with this, and if I have my way with this, that Council will be re-instated. The only thing preventing this from taking place in Iraq today, is Bush!

Do tell how is Bush stopping you from having your way of things with this "council"? LOL I love how you continue to project yourself as some sort of Iraqi messenger.

Oh really? You mean to tell me all of Iraq was ready for an election campaign in the space of time that was given to them? I'd like to see America pull that time frame off... we'd save a fortune in election campaign expenses!

The idea was to stop the power vacuum, didnt work, but as mentioned above, apparently alot of people understood who they were voting for enough to where 3/4 of the Iraqi adults came to vote. Also please note that people were bombed at the polls, but they kept voting anyways.

No no, you are right these people dont want democracy they just risked their lives to get someone in power. OH but wait it wasnt Al-Qaeda in Iraq or its affiliates so those who vote and those appointed must die. That is ok with you though right?

Come to that, if America were a true democracy, then our president would merely represent whatever race out-bred us. Correct me if I'm wrong, but white men are definately in the minority and would never have enough votes to continue their presidential successions, over and over again.

I will be happy to correct you, the majority are the white males in american, actually we are an overwhelming majority. So yes you are wrong and yes that is probably why white males dominate the presidency in America. However there is a half white and half black running for democrat right now, remember Obama. America is no doubt a true democracy, why else do you think people all over the world want to live here?

I've used Bush as a perfect example of the blessings of democracy. For instance, had it not been for democracy we'd be stuck with that MF for the duration of his life. Because of democracy, his days are numb3red. Before you know it, he won't be in a position to "veto" anything.

Just think if the same could have been said of Saddam :? I have to say though I am ready for a change in leadership, I dont know if it will have the effect you are looking for though.

Limited? Are you kidding me? The Hiroshima bomb was limited too.

yes it was limited, hiroshima was unprecendented and ended a war that would have claimed many more lives both japanese and american. it may seem to have been ruthless but it actually may have saved lives in the long run.

Infamous quotes: "There will not be a safe place in Baghdad," said one Pentagon official who has been briefed on the plan (Shock and Awe).

"The sheer size of this (Shock and Awe) has never been seen before, never been contemplated before," the official said.

By that I mean you get rid of their power, water. In 2,3,4,5 days they are physically, emotionally and psychologically exhausted," Ullman tells Martin.

Excuse me, but I repeat: The Bush Administration is accusing the Iraqi fighters (and their allies) of behaving... like Bush!

These quotes all come from the beginning of the war, a time when it was to drive SH and his people out, physically emotionally and psychologically was not used in the context of every Iraqi, it was used for saddam and his regime.

I'll take that bet. While the democrats posture for their position, I'm busy with my own... a reconciliation plan that will grant Amnesty and resurrect that council.

The Ninth Scribe

Please show us one proposal or reconciliation plan that has been approved or instated by anyone that has come from you.

 

[barney]

Hmm. If I wanted to read a list of the work of the "Knights" of Allah, I'd go to Jihadunspun.
Attacking US troops directly instead of schools and shoppers? Ahh well a change is as good as a rest.

 

[MTAFFI]

^^^Ruggedtough,

Great post!

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

Frisk them all at the door for bomb vests before letting them in.

They won't need weapons. People use weapons when they feel threatened. People lie when they feel threatened. Suggest you find an Iraqi (just one) and pretend to be three separate people. The first, an American Republican. The second, a American Democrat and the third, a Muslim "extremist" (either Sunni or Shiite). The results of such a test might surprize you. In truth, the people are worn down, which is exactly what the DoD wanted from the start... and they mistrust everyone. Their answer (if you can fairly call it that), will be exactly what they expect you want to hear. To them, it is not questioning, they view it in the same context as interrogation. Experience has taught them that to say otherwise could cause them harm (they'll end up on someone's hit list). How can you have an election when the people can't even speak freely?

The Ninth Scribe

 

[MTAFFI]

They won't need weapons. People use weapons when they feel threatened. People lie when they feel threatened. Suggest you find an Iraqi (just one) and pretend to be three separate people. The first, an American Republican. The second, a American Democrat and the third, a Muslim "extremist" (either Sunni or Shiite). The results of such a test might surprize you. In truth, the people are worn down, which is exactly what the DoD wanted from the start... and they mistrust everyone. Their answer (if you can fairly call it that), will be exactly what they expect you want to hear. To them, it is not questioning, they view it in the same context as interrogation. Experience has taught them that to say otherwise could cause them harm (they'll end up on someone's hit list). How can you have an election when the people can't even speak freely?

The Ninth Scribe

So to his whole post which was probably one of the more comprehensive posts I have ever read on this site, this is all you have to say. A weak and vague paragraph about how a meeting might suprise someone and how the Iraqis only went to vote because that is what they thought would keep them off a hit list:enough!: You are truly remarkable how you dance around factual information and only listen or use what you find for your own side. Try using an open mind, otherwise you will always find yourself as the loser of any debate, arguement or conversation as you are shown to be here. +o(

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

So to his whole post which was probably one of the more comprehensive posts I have ever read on this site, this is all you have to say. A weak and vague paragraph about how a meeting might suprise someone and how the Iraqis only went to vote because that is what they thought would keep them off a hit list:enough!: You are truly remarkable how you dance around factual information and only listen or use what you find for your own side. Try using an open mind, otherwise you will always find yourself as the loser of any debate, arguement or conversation as you are shown to be here.

You are so predictable, throwing your judgments around as if you were Lord Fonteroy... but others have judgments too and I have listened to all parties concerned and appreciate their various complaints. From what I can tell, you'll not be satisfied until Islam (the whole of it) falls to it's knees and agrees with you. Just telling you the truth here, because you deserve that much - it will never happen. This war will be without an ending and all countries will suffer it's weight for generations to come, because regardless of what the Bush Administration has told it's people, these are not a small "handful of thugs" spattered around the four corners of the world and America is no more closer to Mission Accomplished than it was four years ago. You are witnessing an up-rising that is gathering momentum and strength.... especially in Iraq (both Sunni and Shia sects)! So much for your freedom theories. They are but two fingers away from raising the "Black Hand" but you know what's best, right? It's so easy for you.

This isn't about winning and losing. It isn't a game. The days of scoring brownie points ended... and brownie points will not solve this problem anyway.
I believe the Numb3rs speak for themselves. So sound off if it makes you feel better. Rant, Rave and come up with every name you can think of - but be careful... it all comes back to you, you know?

You get what you give.

The Ninth Scribe

 

[MTAFFI]

You are so predictable, throwing your judgments around as if you were Lord Fonteroy... but others have judgments too and I have listened to all parties concerned and appreciate their various complaints. From what I can tell, you'll not be satisfied until Islam (the whole of it) falls to it's knees and agrees with you. Just telling you the truth here, because you deserve that much - it will never happen. This war will be without an ending and all countries will suffer it's weight for generations to come, because regardless of what the Bush Administration has told it's people, these are not a small "handful of thugs" spattered around the four corners of the world and America is no more closer to Mission Accomplished than it was four years ago. You are witnessing an up-rising that is gathering momentum and strength.... especially in Iraq (both Sunni and Shia sects)! So much for your freedom theories. They are but two fingers away from raising the "Black Hand" but you know what's best, right? It's so easy for you.

This isn't about winning and losing. It isn't a game. The days of scoring brownie points ended... and brownie points will not solve this problem anyway.
I believe the Numb3rs speak for themselves. So sound off if it makes you feel better. Rant, Rave and come up with every name you can think of - but be careful... it all comes back to you, you know?

You get what you give.

The Ninth Scribe

First off, who did I judge? When did I ever make a judgement? I too listen to various parties and I respect their opinions or beliefs. Islam doesnt need to "fall to its knees" for me, as I dont believe that myself or my country is at war with Islam. We are at war with those who use Islam as an excuse, as should all practicing Muslims, and everyone else for that matter. You are right also, this war will be without ending, but what you dont understand is it isnt going to somehow profoundly effect me either. The fact that these people kill each other everyday by the hundreds has absolutely no effect on my life, other than I hate to see all those innocent people die. Also let me try to explain this to you again, we already won our "war" in Iraq. It was won when saddam was hanging like a rat from his rope, so you are wrong in that we are no closer than 4 years ago, because we won. Now as far as creating stability in Iraq, I would agree, there is nothing to accomplish there, I say pull out let them kill each other then when the terrorist group arises and takes the government we will have good reason to blow the whole country to pieces. I wonder how that black hand will stop that? Saddam sure couldnt when he was hiding in his hole. Also who is rising up? Is it Muslims everywhere? I am sure that many Muslims on this site can back me up and agree that this is not going on, unless you are talking about rising up against the extremists.

You are right though, this isnt a game, thousands of Iraqis die every month, it surely isnt a game to them. When the US leaves who will be there to protect them?

With all that said why dont you now go back and read ruggedtouch's post and actually respond to it? If it is because he is right, then lets see you tell him so, rather than respond to the only thing you can dig out of all that, that can help with your lousy point.

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

We are at war with those who use Islam as an excuse, as should all practicing Muslims, and everyone else for that matter.

The ones you accuse of using Islam as an excuse are the ones accusing America likewise... of using Democracy as an excuse. I'm not particularly interested in moderate Islam because they could care less which way the feather flies. I make it a point to study "radical" Islam because they are the ones who brought the complaints. Contrary to the Bush administration's assertion that these are small pockets of fighters, I've found their numb3rs to be somewhat awe inspiring. This is no small population! If we try to use warfare to deal with this, it will easily carry on for the next 100 years!

I believe there are other ways to deal with this. That's all.

The Ninth Scribe

 

[MTAFFI]

The ones you accuse of using Islam as an excuse are the ones accusing America likewise... of using Democracy as an excuse.

What did the US do to Muslims DIRECTLY to deserve 9/11? How did the US start this war? If you cannot answer those questions, then the US is not using democracy as an excuse. In fact the US needs no excuses, we were attacked and we have responded to those who pose a threat and who potentially were directly or indirectly involved in the attack, PERIOD. Radical Islam started this war, and eventually one way or another they will be destroyed.

I'm not particularly interested in moderate Islam because they could care less which way the feather flies. I make it a point to study "radical" Islam because they are the ones who brought the complaints.

So you dont study "moderate" Islam, please tell me what that is exactly so I can get my ducks in a row before I respond to that. If it is what I think, then these people do care, they wish for peace with the west and dont condone that which goes against the holy Quran. Radical Islam is a joke and will be defeated.

Contrary to the Bush administration's assertion that these are small pockets of fighters, I've found their numb3rs to be somewhat awe inspiring. This is no small population! If we try to use warfare to deal with this, it will easily carry on for the next 100 years!

So then you are saying that this is not the minority of Muslims? If this is the case then it is a us against them thing.... I dont think you would want this, especially if you are Muslim. A war with Muslims in the Middle east and here in the US would not be simple but it would definitely be feasible. The middle east could be obliterated within 6 months, and I mean everyone could die, and those in the US could be rounded up and also killed. It sounds savage, but from what you are saying all of the (or the majority of)Muslims hate the west and wont stop fighting us and will continue to violate the security of our nation, now I hate to say this but at some point there will be a line drawn, and enough will be enough. This will not continue for 100 years, there will be much bigger bombs dropped before that happens.

I believe there are other ways to deal with this. That's all.

The Ninth Scribe

Like what?

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

What did the US do to Muslims DIRECTLY to deserve 9/11? How did the US start this war? If you cannot answer those questions, then the US is not using democracy as an excuse.

Don't have a lot of time to get into this, but from what I understand, and I didn't take them at their word (I've been double checking the records), the complaint is that we sold a ton of weapons to Israel that were used to harm innocent Muslims, and that's a pretty serious complaint. To get a jist of how serious it is, America is furious that Iran is selling weapons that are being used to kill Americans in Iraq. Both sides consider their complaints extremely serious, although I'm not sure both sides realize the complaints are identical. It's a mess... but that's what I have on this subject (in a nut-shell). Hope that helps.

The Ninth Scribe

 

[MTAFFI]

Don't have a lot of time to get into this, but from what I understand, and I didn't take them at their word (I've been double checking the records), the complaint is that we sold a ton of weapons to Israel that were used to harm innocent Muslims, and that's a pretty serious complaint. To get a jist of how serious it is, America is furious that Iran is selling weapons that are being used to kill Americans in Iraq. Both sides consider their complaints extremely serious, although I'm not sure both sides realize the complaints are identical. It's a mess... but that's what I have on this subject (in a nut-shell). Hope that helps.

The Ninth Scribe

But that is indirect, the US sells weapons to Israel all the time, just like the soviets sell to Iran and so on and so on. So based on this information there was no right in the attack on the trade center. This attack is was sparked the war, it was not the US started this but extreme Muslims, now Muslims land is attacked for it, sounds reasonable to me

 

[barney]

South Africa sells arms to Yeman...Yeman sells them on to the former Yugoslavia. The Yuoslavs use them to oppress the muslims (and to committ genocide before the USA and UK stepped in).

Time to strap on the vests and head to Johannasberg?

 

[islamirama]

"We used to be allies with Osama Bin Laden & Saddam Hussain" - Republican Ron Paul

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEJJ1GHteLM

 

[Keltoi]

"We used to be allies with Osama Bin Laden & Saddam Hussain" - Republican Ron Paul

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEJJ1GHteLM

Your point being what? You're voting for Ron Paul?

 

[barney]

America was a useful tool in those days for Bin Liner and Saddam, as a bulwark against the Great Satan. (i'm talking about the USSR)

 

[Keltoi]

America was a useful tool in those days for Bin Liner and Saddam, as a bulwark against the Great Satan. (i'm talking about the USSR)

I doubt the U.S. even cared who or what Bin Laden was at the time of the Soviet/Afghan War. Anybody willing to cause trouble for the Soviets was considered a friend during the Cold War. Any accusation that the U.S. had some personal and involved relationship with Bin Laden is patently false. The U.S. supplied anti-Soviet fighters with weapons and money for years, as the Soviet Union did for our enemies.

 

[barney]

Aye. Personally, I would have left em with Jezzails and Lee-Enfields.

 

[islamirama]

Your point being what? You're voting for Ron Paul?

Yesterday's friends, today's enemies.

Bin Laden and saddam don't go together at all. Saddam loved his secular rule and bin laden wanted kuffars out of Muslim lands, two totally different ideologies. Only the naive and ignorant believe US when it tries to link bin laden to saddam so pathetically.