Gaza War

[Keltoi]

What we could see here is two Palestinian governments. One in the West Bank and one in Gaza. The Fatah controlled area will probably make more peace agreements with Israel, money will flow into the government and the infrastructure from international sources...while the Hamas controlled area will spiral into even worse poverty and decay, not to mention perpetual violence. There will be a Palestinian state living in peace with Israel...hopefully, and the Abbas government is the only entity that seems interested in achieving that.

It might seem bad now, but I'm beginning to think this might be just the thing needed to force the Palestinians to focus on stability and peace.

 

[Zman]

/Peace To All

Hamas Seizes PA Intelligence Materials, Say Israeli Tactics Exposed

After Storming PA Security Headquarters In Gaza, Hamas Officials Say They've Uncovered Tousands Of Documents, Including Classified Correspondence With Israeli Forces.

Hamas: 'These Will Help Us Battle Israel's Surveillance Tactics'

By Ali Waked
Published: 06.14.07, 18:09 / Israel News
Ynet

After overtaking the Palestinian Authority's Preventive Security headquarters in Gaza City on Thursday afternoon, Hamas fighters report they have seized tens of thousands of highly valuable intelligence documents, including correspondence between the PA and others, including the CIA, regarding security issues.

A Hamas member told Ynet that he and his men removed thousands of documents, video tapes and other equipment from the compound:
"I saw my name appeared at least four times in the intelligence documents – in attempts to take me out. I saw details of surveillance against me and joint Fatah-Israeli plans to thwart our attacks."

"These will help us battle Israel's surveillance tactics," he added.

"If we release these documents, the entire world will be shocked, not just the Palestinians. The dozens of armored vehicles, RPG launchers and rockets, the hundreds of thousands of bullets we have – they are all nothing compared to the documents and data discs we uncovered.

"There are video tapes of surveillance against our fighters and their homes, wiretaps on our calls, the PA's entire method of operation has been exposed," he said.

The Hamas man said that the documents also implicate several Arab nations of involvement in the internal Palestinian power-struggle in an attempt to impair Hamas.

According to the Hamas source the papers also document the PA's cooperation with the American CIA against Palestinian organizations, especially Hamas.

Releasing the documents would entail the approval of the Hamas leadership, said the Hamas source, saying that the documents would be used to prove the justness of Hamas' fight against the Palestinian security forces.

The WorldNetDaily news website reported Muhammed Abdel-El, the spokesperson for the Hamas-allied Popular Resistance Committees group, as saying:

"The CIA files we seized, which include documents, CDs, taped conversations, and videos, are more important that all the American weapons we obtained the last two days as we took over the traitor Fatah's positions."

Another Hamas official, quoted by WND, said the CIA documents they browsed so far contain

"information about the collaboration between Fatah and the Israeli and American security organizations; CIA methods on how to prevent attacks, chase and follow after cells of Hamas and the Committees; plans about Fatah assassinations of members of Hamas and other organizations; and American studies on the security situation in Gaza."

The official claimed the documents also detailed CIA networks in other Arab countries, and "how to help beat Islamic allies of Hamas in other Arab countries, including Egypt and Jordan.

"We will use these documents and make portions public to prove the collaboration between America and traitor Arab countries," he told WND.

Waiting For Abbas

Meanwhile all eyes are on Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and Hamas is preparing itself for any scenario, threatening that any decision on Abbas' part that is not deemed acceptable by Hamas will lead to an escalation in the clashes.

"We are the elected government and we represent the Palestinian public's legitimacy," said Hamas.

Hamas said it was prepared to begin combating the anarchy rampant throughout the PA using Hamas Special Forces, police forces and the civilian guard – all would answer only to Hamas.

"None of the other collapsed forces will be allowed to operate save these groups," announced Hamas.

Another possibility Hamas says it is prepared is the isolation of Gaza and Abbas declaring it a rogue district.

Earlier on Thursday aides to Abbas said that he had given the first order to his elite presidential guard to strike back against Hamas.

Source:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3413019,00.html

 

[Sami Zaatari]

well the goverment in the west bank is what u call a BS goverment since they lost the elections, hence what their doing with AMERICAN support is saying yeah we dont like the democratically elected goverment, so yeah ummm well just keep our own one to rule west bank.

 

[Trumble]

What we could see here is two Palestinian governments. One in the West Bank and one in Gaza. The Fatah controlled area will probably make more peace agreements with Israel, money will flow into the government and the infrastructure from international sources...while the Hamas controlled area will spiral into even worse poverty and decay, not to mention perpetual violence.

I think that's a reasonable assessment. I just feel so sorry for the people of Gaza.

well the goverment in the west bank is what u call a BS goverment since they lost the elections, hence what their doing with AMERICAN support is saying yeah we dont like the democratically elected goverment, so yeah ummm well just keep our own one to rule west bank.

A ludicrous argument. As Hamas have essentially taken over in Gaza by violence why should Fatah consider they still have any democratic legitimacy? The elections were not intended to establish a permanent Hamas government and did not give them authority to try and obtain one by non-democratic means.

 

[rav]

90 people dead and only apalogetics. It seems there is no care for Palestinian lives at all here. Just care for which bullets took their lives.

 

[Sami Zaatari]

90 people dead and only apalogetics. It seems there is no care for Palestinian lives at all here. Just care for which bullets took their lives.

most of the dead are millitants (fatah millitants)

 

[rav]

most of the dead are millitants (fatah millitants)

Untrue, I believe that I have read that most of the dead are civillians, although please feel free to call me out if I am wrong. However, what good is that going to do? Fatah now knows according to many witnesses that Hamas has executed there "brothers" in front of their wives and children. It will just launch a new cycle of violence, especially in the West bank where any Hamas supporter will basically be taking cover for months because Fatah dominates the West Bank so much.

 

[Zman]

The Fatah controlled area will probably make more peace agreements with Israel, money will flow into the government and the infrastructure from international sources...while the Hamas controlled area will spiral into even worse poverty and decay, not to mention perpetual violence.

1. Hamas has proven to possess intense adaptabilty & survival skills.

The kidnapping of their parliamentarians and leadership, hasn't dented their ability to continue functioning as an organization and government.

2. Hamas will still find a way to bring in the money, whether via donations, or actual state affairs, between nations.

3. The new kid on the block, is Hamas. Fatah, is outdated and is in intensive care with a DNR sign hanging over its head.

4. Whether specific nations like it or not, Hamas is here for the long haul, and with time, nations will end up dealing with them.

5. Since they've defeated Fatah, and are the sole entity in complete and undisputed control of Gaza, there will be no competition nor internal subversives of any weight to disrupt their governance.

So, I believe that there will be periods of tranqulity in Gaza (I'm sure Israel and others won't hesitate to disrupt their rule, but at least on an internal level, they have no large Palestinian structure challenging them).

6. In the West Bank, Fatah will be holding on tooth-and-nail. Time isn't on their side. Especially, after they were manhandled in Gaza, and many of it's security forces either fled, captured and killed.

Also, Hamas has a presence in the West Bank. Although it's smaller than Gaza, but, nontheless, strong, organized, disciplined and efficient. Even with their smaller size, Fatah (with all the aid its receiving from the CIA, Egypt, Jordan and Israel), hasn't managed to eradicate them.

So, the Palestinian people will eventually Join/support Hamas in droves. I wouldn't be surprised if many Fatah members also switched allegiance...

There will be a Palestinian state living in peace with Israel...hopefully, and the Abbas government is the only entity that seems interested in achieving that.

1. Fatah will soon become a footnote in History. Quite a few members are unhappy with it's current situation (with Israel), and I believe it will eventually divide into smaller and disorganized fiefdoms.

They've already demonstrated that they're only interested in power and authority and have forsaken the Palestinian people & their cause. They are corrupt and decaying.

2. I don't think that a "peace" agreement between Israel and Fatah will last long. You can't have peace with half the Palestinians, only.

Don't forget, this so-called "civil war," is actually a power struggle and not a true civil war.

It's Just skirmishes and battles between 2 organizations and 2 factions of government.

The Palestinian people as a whole, have not participated in the fighting. So, it's not really a civil war.

Once the dust settles and the undisputed victor appears, you'll see the general population flocking to Hamas.

3. Hamas has offered before to enter into a Just, and comprehensive agreement with Israel, without American/Israeli preconditions.

4. They even offered Israel a 10 year truce.

5. They had voluntarily entered into a one-sided cesation of hositilites for a year, and in all that time, Israel never reciprocated and continued on assassinating Hamas members, and murdering Palestinian civilians.

So, it is Hamas & the Palestinians who are genuinely interested in a Just and comprehensive peace agreement, not Israel.

All Israel does is stall and constantly erect roadblocks, in order to avoid any peace agreements.

Don' forget that Israel is a militaristic society, and needs constant conflict and warfare. Warfare is Israel's oxygen.

If Hamas ends up having the majority of the masses behind them, the West will eventually have to deal with the Hamas government. Because they've seen that if they can't divide the people from the government, their plots are doomed to failure.

And if the West deals with the Hamas government, the rest of the worlds governments will follow in our footsteps. Some may be dealing with Hamas covertly, already (not referring to Iran & Syria, but probably others, also)...

 

[Sami Zaatari]

fatah are the old, they are the product of fail arab nationalism movements formed during the 60's 70's and 80's, and as we all know arab nationalism completly failed. since most ppl in the mid-east realized that they are now turning to the religion and forming Islamic groups, you see this all over the place now, and thats what hamas is, and groups like hamas are the future of the mid-east, since nationalistic groups like fatah have never done anything, were always corrupt, and always wanted money and power, thats what you get with arab nationalism groups. hamas need to strengthen themselves up in gaza now, make it a fortress because israel will eventually attack, turn gaza into south lebanon, where the IDF didnt have a single space of breathing space, they cudnt move anywhere nor occupy any land for long periods, hamas shud do this.

also as zman said, many fatah members will most likely defect now, perhaps this conflict with hamas will make them see the light, that infact they belonged to a corrupt group fighting for something other than palestine.

 

[rav]

3. Hamas has offered before to enter into a Just, and comprehensive agreement with Israel, without American/Israeli preconditions.

4. They even offered Israel a 10 year truce.

Hold on! Hamas out of the "goodness" of their hearts offered to allow Israel to not attack them and disrupt their arming abilities for 10 years so they can plan an effective strategy to kill more Jews?

Don' forget that Israel is a militaristic society, and needs constant conflict and warfare. Warfare is Israel's oxygen.

If that statement is true, such oxygen was only formed by Arab attacks again and again. Although I don't think its true.

Fatah will soon become a footnote in History.

What makes you believe that. If the Fatah gunmen and the Al-Aqsa martyrs brigade are not kept under control in the West Bank by Abbas they may wipe out any trace of support for Hamas in the west bank. I think you have no clue how much in power they are there, not just in arms, but in support.

My comments: I think it is sickening, but many extremists in Israel were rooting for Hamas. The international community only pressures Israel when they have a peace partner. Not recongnizing Israel and these ridiculous "peace deals for 10 years" have no credence in the world. Fatah they view as just as evil, but trying to destroy Israel in a more subtle matter. In my mind, I view Fatah as a greater foe and more deceptive. With Hamas you know what you have. No trickery, they state what they want and you can respond without hesitation or disorder in the UN. The problem I have with Hamas is that I believe there will be no freedom for Palestinians and it has just led to more fear for them. I think if a vote occured today Sami, Hamas would lose. Just compare Gaza from now, and then to before Hamas got elected.

Ask any neutral Palestinian and they would want to live with their families in the old Gaza. It is not some war game to them as it is to you. It is their life.

 

[Talha777]

Hamas is victorious in Gaza. Subhan Allah.

The problem I have with Hamas is that I believe there will be no freedom for Palestinians and it has just led to more fear for them

Palestinians dont want freedom, they want Islam.

 

[Sami Zaatari]

rav perhaps if you let the gazans freely use their border without so many restrictions then their life would become much better since this would let hamas bring in lots of aid for the ppl etc, but hamas have to do everything in secret,smuggle money in etc, which makes it hard, and effects the ppl. so hence the problem in gaza is not hamas's fault, the ppl elected hamas, and u guys dont like it, hence u stop everything there, open the border in the south and it will be all good, hamas will be able to easily get lots of money and aid in, but you guys dont want to do that, hence stop blaming hamas for everything.

 

[rav]

Hamas is victorious in Gaza. Subhan Allah.



Palestinians dont want freedom, they want Islam.

I see what you are saying Talha, but if that was the case, then why does Fatah still have so much support as demonstrated by their overwhelming majority and popularity in the West Bank?

rav perhaps if you let the gazans freely use their border without so many restrictions then their life would become much better since this would let hamas bring in lots of aid for the ppl etc, but hamas have to do everything in secret,smuggle money in etc, which makes it hard, and effects the ppl. so hence the problem in gaza is not hamas's fault, the ppl elected hamas, and u guys dont like it, hence u stop everything there, open the border in the south and it will be all good, hamas will be able to easily get lots of money and aid in, but you guys dont want to do that, hence stop blaming hamas for everything.

Perhaps you are correct. However, I think the border restrictions originated because of attacks on Israel's civilian population. Will Hamas get aid in the form of medicine, books, and food or more weapons?

No one disputes that the people indeed did elect Hamas. However, just because the Palestinians democratically elected a group, does that mean the world is bound to have to follow or respect such a group? The citizens who vote in any elections must live with the consequences that the leaders they elect will create in the area of foreign relations. In no way under my opinion can liberal democracies be trusted anymore. The Germans in the 1930's were an "enlightened" democracy, which was at the head of technological era, yet they commited the most digusting crimes ever known to man in this era against the Jewish people.

 

[Skywalker]

Well things are really cooking now :S

Gaza is now ruled by Hamas, while the West Bank is now ruled solely by Fatah and Hamas is outlawed.

Gaza has lost its fuel lines due to this mess, while the West Bank is about to recieve financial aid and a drop on its embargo. Very interesting indeed.

To be honest, I don't really know what to think of all this. The people of Gaza could really suffer because of this, while there no telling what the new government will do to the Hamas in the West Bank. Will it be a civil war? Brother killing brother? Or...here's a new one...what if Fatah and Hamas are staging this whole mess just to get the embargo lifted and recieve their aid, only to put the money into weapons and make a large-attack on Israel? In other words...what if this is all a show just to get money? Do you think that they're that smart? If they are...that would be really, really cool.

Maybe I've just been watching too much TV.

 

[muslima-layla]

brothers and sisters
As of many of you may feel it sadens me when i see my fellow muslims killing one another. the situation in plastine in some way is rediculas. why must the plastinians kill each other while israel's are killing them? why cant the two groups just come togather and decided whats best for their country instead of killing one another? right know the israels are sitting down on their sofas and loughing at the situation in plastine and loughing at how weak our muslim umma is. If the muslim umma actually cared for about the plaestinians they would have helped those plastinians before the situation got worse. in 2006 palistine picked hamaz and the muslim umma loved them to my understanding so did any of the muslim countries help them????? because if they did im sure this situation wouldnt be as worse as it is today.
i saw the other day on news hamaz man wearing mask with gun around the streets and going into offices viloently throughing their guns around and killing people. why??? is this they way we get power? is this even islam? look at the israels you dont hear them killing one another. they all come togather as israels and they help each other up, so why cant the muslim umma do that? our beloved prophet Mohammed (pbuh) said the muslim umma is like the human shield if one part of the body aches the whole body aches.

 

[wilberhum]

Hamas is victorious in Gaza. Subhan Allah.



Palestinians dont want freedom, they want Islam.

Interesting! :skeleton: So there is no freedom in Islam? :?

 

[KAding]

This is such a mess. I'm really becoming a cynic on this whole mess. We should just disengage. Neither side deserves our support, let alone our money. Not the Israelis with their settlement policies, nor the in-fighting Palestinians of which a whole bunch seem hellbent on the destruction of Israel and who seem to think blowing up a bus in Tel Aviv or randomly lobbing some rockets over a fence is the proper way to achieving it.

It time to disengage and look to regions in the world were our money and attention can do more good. Neither side seems to appreciate our input much either way.

 

[wilberhum]

This is such a mess. I'm really becoming a cynic on this whole mess. We should just disengage. Neither side deserves our support, let alone our money. Not the Israelis with their settlement policies, nor the in-fighting Palestinians of which a whole bunch seem hellbent on the destruction of Israel and who seem to think blowing up a bus in Tel Aviv or randomly lobbing some rockets over a fence is the proper way to achieving it.

It time to disengage and look to regions in the world were our money and attention can do more good. Neither side seems to appreciate our input much either way.

Ditto! :thumbs_up

 

[Zman]

Neither side seems to appreciate our input much

"Our Input," is what created this mess, in the first place.

But, I do agree with you. We should definitely disengage, not aid either side, and let them resolve their problems on their own.

As for looking towards othe regions around the world, we need to play nice and be fair. Because, we are loathed around the world, due to our continuous meddling in other peoples affairs.

We've done good deeds with our humanitarian aid after natural disasters, for example, but, we waisted whatever political capital we've accumulated with our employment of military interventions, CIA's dirty tricks, political bias, and economic injustice...

 

[KAding]

"Our Input," is what created this mess, in the first place.

I disagree. "We" are unjustly being blamed for this mess. The Israelis are a sovereign people. Nor do I accept this reasoning that we're responsible for the Pals killing each other because we failed to unconditionally send them our money.

But, I do agree with you. We should definitely disengage, not aid either side, and let them resolve their problems on their own.

As for looking towards othe regions around the world, we need to play nice and be fair. Because, we are loathed around the world, due to our continuous meddling in other peoples affairs.

We've done good deeds with our humanitarian aid after natural disasters, for example, but, we waisted whatever political capital we've accumulated with our employment of military interventions, CIA's dirty tricks, political bias, and economic injustice...

I don't think Europe is hated that much really. I suppose some see us as a US appendage. Besides, its not as if Islam has a particularly good name in this world. What lessons do you learn from that?