"Views on Atonement for Sin."

[Woodrow]

Where are Christians persecuting Muslims today?

Your enthusiasm is understood and I believe I have some understanding as to how your views about wanting to share what you believe to be true. However, there is a fine line between wanting to share and wanting to impose. There is not a single Muslim country in which "Missionaries" are not entering into under false pretext of being tourists, charity workers, teachers or tradesmen etc, but are there for the single purpose of converting the people away from Islam. Their methods are very subversive and while their intent may be good on the surface, their goal is to destroy Islam. Perhaps they do not understand how evil their methods are.

Then you have the individual incidents throughout the Western world. A Sikh shop keeper from Pakistan shot and killed in Dallas, because somebody thought he was Muslim. Yes, it is more isolated and not as news worthy, but to the individuals it is just as horrific. There are no Muslim missionaries invading Western countries with the intent of converting the people and Muslims do not as readily identified. But, there are things like Mosque burnings and individual killings, simply because we are Muslim.

1994: An arsonist started a fire that burned to the ground a nearly completed mosque in Yuba City. CA.
bullet

1995: The Islamic center in Springfield IL was destroyed by arson.
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1995-SEP-17: Vandals painted obscenities and graffiti on the windows, walls and trees of the Islamic Center of Passaic County, in Patterson, NJ. Flammable liquid was found on the floor of an outbuilding; this might have been an attempted arson.
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1995-SEP: Vandals attacked the mosque at Clarkston, GA by breaking windows, damaging lights, discharging fire extinguishers, and burning satanic symbols (inverted pentagrams) into the carpet.
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1995-OCT-21:The Islamic Center and Masjid of Greenville, SC, was destroyed in an arson attack. A suspect was later charged.
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1995-OCT-21: Vandals painted an obscene message on the wall of the Flint Islamic Center/Genesee Academy in Flint, MI.
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1996-MAR-19: Employees of a radio station in Denver, CO entered the local mosque after morning prayers. They allegedly played the national anthem on a trumpet, harassed the worshipers, and broadcast the incident live on radio. An agreement was later concluded between the local Muslim community and the radio station. It included a public apology by the station, sensitivity training for station employees and PSAs that offered a positive image of Islam.
bullet

1998-JAN-28: A 23 year old man was arrested for allegedly smashing a concrete block through the glass front door of the mosque in Fort Collins, CO.
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1998-JAN-29: Vandals scattered metal spikes in the parking lot of the Flint Islamic Center in Flint, MI. A number of cars had flat tires.
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1998-FEB-22: A vandal threw a beer bottle through the second floor window of the mosque in Bloomingdale, IN.
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1998-MAR-8: Someone torched three school busses owned by the local Islamic school in Ottawa, ON Canada.
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1999-MAY: A man was arrested after fleeing in his car from the area of a mosque in Denver CO. Loaded weapons, machetes, hundreds of rounds of ammunition, and bomb making materials were found in his car. Jack Merylin Modig was later arrested. He allegedly said "I am an enemy against the Islamic nation [sic] and I was going to take care of business."
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1999-JUN-23: CFRB, a Toronto, ON Canada radio station broadcasted a live call-in program. The initial topic dealt with a Greek Orthodox priest who refused admittence of a seeing-eye dog into his church. A caller criticized religious extremism. He said "Nero burned the wrong people - he should have burned the Muslims." The announcer tried to change to another topic. The operations manager of CFRB later apologized. They have since drawn up new guidelines for operations during call-in shows.
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1999-MAR-5: A mosque was seriously damaged by an arsonist in Minneapolis, MN
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1999: Three youths were charged with vandalism of a Villa Park IL mosque, near Chicago. They allegedly threw several large chunks of concrete and a glass milk bottle through four windows of the Islamic Foundation.
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2000-JUN-20: A gunman seriously injured a worshiper at an Islamic Center in Memphis, TN. The door to the mosque was damaged by a shotgun blast.
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2000-NOV: A suspicious fire gutted the lobby of a mosque in Surrey, British Columbia, and severely damaged the rest of the building. There were no injuries reported. Witnesses reported seeing a van speeding away from the mosque just before an explosion was heard.
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2001-JAN: Vandals targeted the Islamic Center of Southern California.
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2001-FEB *: Vandals attacked a mosque in Winnipeg, MB, Canada. They smeared animal feces, eggs and white paint on the front of the building. Garbage was strewn around.
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2001-MAR-16: Several youths, one with a baseball bat, allegedly attacked two Muslims who were standing outside of their mosque in Sparks NV. One Muslim had his arm broken. The other was more seriously injured and was in critical condition in hospital after undergoing three operations. A member of a nearby church ran to help stop the attack.

Source: http://www.religioustolerance.org/isl_hate.htm

Hate crimes soar after bombings
Wirral Islamic Cultural Centre
Mosques outside London were also attacked after the bombings
Religious hate crimes, mostly against Muslims, have risen six-fold in London since the bombings, new figures show.

There were 269 religious hate crimes in the three weeks after 7 July, compared with 40 in the same period of 2004.

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4740015.stm

Big Jump in Hate Crimes Against Muslims Documented

Final Call and IPS/GIN, News Report, Jim Lobe, Posted: Oct 10, 2006

WASHINGTON (IPS/GIN) - Complaints of discrimination, harassment and violence against Muslims jumped over 30 percent in 2005 from the previous year, according to a report released Sept. 18 by the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), the nation’s largest Muslim organization.

A total of 1,972 such incidents were reported in 2005. That was the highest number since CAIR began reporting anti-Muslim incidents in 1995, the year that the bombing by right-wing extremists of the federal government building in Oklahoma City, blamed initially by the mass media on Arab radicals, set off a rash of anti-Muslim attacks.

Source: http://news.newamericamedia.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=127fe2880e48951b564ac2f3e171242e

Steep rise in hate crimes against Muslims
Chicago Sun-Times, Nov 26, 2002 by Curt Anderson

WASHINGTON--Muslims and people who are or appear to be of Middle Eastern descent were reported as victims of hate crimes more often last year than ever before, a probable consequence of the fear and suspicion that followed Sept. 11, the FBI said Monday.

Although the number of incidents has tapered off, many Muslims remain worried about a new backlash if the United States goes to war with Iraq or is hit with another major terror attack mounted by Islamic extremists.

"A lot of us feel that our patriotism is always suspect," said Ibrahim Hooper, spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations.

Source: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4155/is_20021126/ai_n12483387

1. Melbourne Mosque in Florida (Islamic Center of Brevard County) comes under attack from the bullets of a sniper (September 2006)

2. Tampa Mosque in Florida under attack from another sniper (September 2006).

3. Mosque in Adelanto in California is burned down (June 2005).

4. Clifton Mosque in Cincinatti, Ohio, receives a bomb threat (July 2006) after being the victim of two pipe bombs (December 2005).

5. Mosque in South Florida is vandalized with graffiti (April, 2006).

6. Muslim refused service at Subway Restaurant (December 2005).

7. Anti-Muslim Fliers are distributed door-to-door in Florida.

8. “Kill All Muslim Kids” website is launched.

9 Two Muslim Men Murdered in St. Petersburg, Florida

10. Muslim Reality in Chicago and in New York after 9-11

Source: http://makkah.wordpress.com/2007/02/23/islamophobia-101-episode-12-hate-crimes-against-mosques-and-muslims-on-the-rise-post-9-11/

WHITE PAPER: PRELIMINARY REPORT ON HATE CRIMES
AGAINST ARABS AND MUSLIMS IN THE UNITED STATES

By
William J. Haddad
Executive Director

I.
Introduction

On September 11, 2001, using hijacked airplanes as weapons on targets in New York City and Washington D.C., terrorists attacked the United States of America, destroying the lives and property of American citizens. The murder victims included citizens, nationals, rescue workers and policemen of Arabic ancestry or of the Muslim faith.

Since it is believed that the terrorists were Middle Eastern and/or Muslim, civil disturbances have erupted throughout the United States targeting Americans of Arabic descent, Americans of the Islamic faith, and Americans who were stereotyped as "looking like" Arab/Muslim-Americans. Some of the disturbances erupted during sanctioned civil marches at or near mosques in the Chicago area and Dearborn, Michigan. Others were pre-meditated criminal acts of vandalism, arson, and murder---three such murders victimized persons who looked like Arab or Muslim Americans, but in fact were not (i.e. A Sikh man in New Mexico, a Pakistani man in Texas, and a Coptic man in California).

Source: http://www.arabbar.org/art-report.asp

Those are just the tip of the iceberg and are not even touching what all is happening in Europe. this is in spite of the fact that Muslims are not even evangelizing their religion and trying to subversly destroy the releigion of the country they live in. What do you suppose would happen if Muslims tried to Evangelize as Evangelists do when they come into Muslim countries.

If you are calling what us Christians are doing or just me on this forum persecution, then what do you call Muslims killing 300 laymen and a chopping a pastors hand?

I call trying to blatantly force Christianity down the throats of people who believe it is in error a form of verbal persecution. No matter who is doing it. I call Muslims who kill 300 laymen and chop off the hands of a pastor, very angry people who lack the skills to control their anger. their methods are very wrong and should not be condoned. but, they are understandable (Not Justified) when you can see that they are seeing their country and way of life being destroyed by invaders.

What about the pulling of finger nails out of a Pakistani Christian revert, and what do you call what was done to 17 year old Mary Khowry during the Lebanese civil war 1975 -1992? Muslim fanatics forced Mary and family to their knees at gun point saying, "If you don't become Muslims, you will be shot." After all were shot, she was the only one who remained alive with arms spread out in the shape of a cross - she was paralized.

One word: fanatics

Woodrow, please don't try to reverse ever thing I say back on me. Use your own ideas, thoughts and information sources.

There is no reversal the fact is I am just as adamant and believe just as strongly about Islam as you do about Christianity. If you take any of your statements and substitute Islam for Christianity and Allah(swt) for Jesus(as) you would be saying what I believe and feel as a Muslim.

Thanks for understanding. Moreover, I think you are confusing love for persecution.

forced Love is persecution. It no longer becomes love, it becomes an overwhelming desire tfor control and a need to satisfy personal wants. Evangelism is often a misguided attempt to control and show strength rather than sharing love. All too often Evangelical thoughts become an obsession and by doing so become an act of evil intent done in the misguided belief it is love.

I am not asking you to stop being a Muslim, but I am asking you to develop a relationship with Jesus bc he lives.

As a Muslim I have come to Love who Jesus(as) truly is, much stronger than I ever could love the myth I once believed. Truth is much greater and much more beautiful than fiction. Although fiction does have the greatest attraction and the strongest emotional impact, because it reflects what an individuals wants and destroys the truth. It is much more comforting and emotiaonaly strong to follow a ficticious desire, that it is to learn genuine love for the reality of truth.

 

[Redeemed]

One of the most vehement of these Christians is also one with a lot of recent posts on this and other related threads. This person has been likened to none other than the infamous Pat Robertson of the 700 Club. A quick google search of "Pat Robertson Islam" turns up many quotes that reflect the tone of the person I have mentioned - yet he speaks repeatedly of "love".

Love is all we Christians have, and it is our most powerful force. If it weren't for that, we wouldn't want to be here, and I for one, don't agree with Pat Robertson on every point. We Christians on this forum love you too much to let you continue on the path of a Christless eternity. I believe that is the edge we have over you. WE CAN LOVE YOU BUT YOU CAN'T LOVE US. I find that limitation in your believe system reprehensible. Love is the most powerful weapon in the universe. I don't think you know that. If it weren't for love we all wouldn't be here as God's creation. God loves you and me; he loves his creation and his church. God would cease to be God if it weren’t for his love. That is who God is. He is love in the highest sense of the word. One cannot have more love than to lay down his life for a friend. That is what Jesus did for us. Your not believing he died is you believing a lie that is designed to destroy you. I don’t want that to happen to you. This is not persecution. I would be telling you these words in a country or place that forbids it. In other words, I would risk my life to tell you something that would get me imprisoned or worse put to death.
You are loved

 

[MustafaMc]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

What does pbuh and swt stand for? Take it easy before you stone me. We as Christians "believe that we are going to Heaven based on the Promises that Allah (God) made to us repeatedly in the Quran" (more importantly in the Bible). That belief and hope is enough for me" too to know what I have by faith.

Reference http://muttaqun.com/dictionary.html

Subhana wa ta'ala - This means "Allah is exalted above weakness and indignity." Sometimes abbreviated as "swt". After saying "Allah" or "Allah's", etc, the Muslim should give praises to Allah swt with this phrase or one of many other phrases giving praise to Allah, swt.

Salla 'Llahu 'alayhi wa sallam - This means "May Allah's peace and blessings be upon him" and it should be said after referring to Muhammad or other prophets. Sometimes abbreviated at "s.a.a.w.s." or "saaws"

'Alayh is'Salam - This means "Peace be upon him" and it should be said after referring to prophets and angels. Sometimes abbreviated as "pbuh".

I am not interested in stoning or hanging or otherwise killing anyone. Still you are the obstinate one - to twist what I wrote and supposedly you KNOW rather than BELIEVE you are saved!

 

[Redeemed]

Your enthusiasm is understood and I believe I have some understanding as to how your views about wanting to share what you believe to be true. However, there is a fine line between wanting to share and wanting to impose. There is not a single Muslim country in which "Missionaries" are not entering into under false pretext of being tourists, charity workers, teachers or tradesmen etc, but are there for the single purpose of converting the people away from Islam. Their methods are very subversive and while their intent may be good on the surface, their goal is to destroy Islam. Perhaps they do not understand how evil their methods are.

Then you have the individual incidents throughout the Western world. A Sikh shop keeper from Pakistan shot and killed in Dallas, because somebody thought he was Muslim. Yes, it is more isolated and not as news worthy, but to the individuals it is just as horrific. There are no Muslim missionaries invading Western countries with the intent of converting the people and Muslims do not as readily identified. But, there are things like Mosque burnings and individual killings, simply because we are Muslim.



Source: http://www.religioustolerance.org/isl_hate.htm




Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4740015.stm



Source: http://news.newamericamedia.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=127fe2880e48951b564ac2f3e171242e




Source: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4155/is_20021126/ai_n12483387



Source: http://makkah.wordpress.com/2007/02/23/islamophobia-101-episode-12-hate-crimes-against-mosques-and-muslims-on-the-rise-post-9-11/



Source: http://www.arabbar.org/art-report.asp

Those are just the tip of the iceberg and are not even touching what all is happening in Europe. this is in spite of the fact that Muslims are not even evangelizing their religion and trying to subversly destroy the releigion of the country they live in. What do you suppose would happen if Muslims tried to Evangelize as Evangelists do when they come into Muslim countries.






I call trying to blatantly force Christianity down the throats of people who believe it is in error a form of verbal persecution. No matter who is doing it. I call Muslims who kill 300 laymen and chop off the hands of a pastor, very angry people who lack the skills to control their anger. their methods are very wrong and should not be condoned. but, they are understandable (Not Justified) when you can see that they are seeing their country and way of life being destroyed by invaders.





One word: fanatics




There is no reversal the fact is I am just as adamant and believe just as strongly about Islam as you do about Christianity. If you take any of your statements and substitute Islam for Christianity and Allah(swt) for Jesus(as) you would be saying what I believe and feel as a Muslim.






forced Love is persecution. It no longer becomes love, it becomes an overwhelming desire tfor control and a need to satisfy personal wants. Evangelism is often a misguided attempt to control and show strength rather than sharing love. All too often Evangelical thoughts become an obsession and by doing so become an act of evil intent done in the misguided belief it is love.





As a Muslim I have come to Love who Jesus(as) truly is, much stronger than I ever could love the myth I once believed. Truth is much greater and much more beautiful than fiction. Although fiction does have the greatest attraction and the strongest emotional impact, because it reflects what an individuals wants and destroys the truth. It is much more comforting and emotiaonaly strong to follow a ficticious desire, that it is to learn genuine love for the reality of truth.

Aren't you suppose to spread Islam? I am in disobedience to God if I don't preach the gosple, but I never put a gun to your head and told you to convert. "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still" Who should I obey your concepts of how I should be or my convictions on what God is telling me to do?

 

[Woodrow]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

What does pbuh and swt stand for?

They are written as a sign of respect.

PBUH= Peace be Upon Him (Written after mentioning a Prophet)

PBUT= Peace be Upon Them (written when speaking of more then one Prophet)

SAW= "Salla Allahu alaihi Wa Sallam". It means "peace be upon him", but it is used when referring to Prophet

SWT= "Subhanahu wa ta'ala" meaning "Allah is pure of having partners and He is exalted from having a son."

there are many others commonly used. But, they are all written as a sign of respect or acknowledgment of an attribute.

Thank you for asking. We use them so often we make the error of forgetting they can be confusing to non-Muslims

 

[Redeemed]

Those isolated incidents you speak of happen to Christians too. I didn't bother to mention those. You make it sound like those Muslims did it out of anger only and out of an overwhelming moment of rage. You didn't mention how this is really built into their belief system and they sought out these Christians deliberately. It is true that Christians go into countries with the intention to evangelize. You call them invaders. I call it obeying the great commission. Jesus said, "Go ye into all the world and make disciples of every nation." Mark 16:15 But if you feel that Christianity is being forced down your throat by me then I asked God's forgiveness for being such an unprofitable servant to him, but I will continue to try to obey him the right way.

 

[Woodrow]

Aren't you suppose to spread Islam? I am in disobedience to God if I don't preach the gosple, but I never put a gun to your head and told you to convert. "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still" Who should I obey your concepts of how I should be or my convictions on what God is telling me to do?

There are many ways to spread Islam. the best way is to share Islam by living as a Muslim so that people will ask why you have so much inner peace.

Another is to always be available to answer questions to the best of your ability

The truth does not have to be Evangelized or unwantedly imposed upon others. In fact that is a great mistake, as an error on an Evangelists part, will lead people to Hellfire. I see Evangelism as a tool of shaytan, to lead people away from God(swt) while believing they have found the path to heaven. Evangelists teach people to Love a religious concept and never learn to love God(swt).

Another way is such as this forum, in which people of all faiths can come look and learn about Islam. All sides of it and even our own errors we can make in trying to defend what we believe. We are very open and do not try to hide the errors we do make. we also are very open in speaking of how much we love Islam and the reasons why we know it is the truth. We do not go into other peoples homes unless we know the door is open and we are invited to speak of our beliefs. But, we do try to live a visible life in which people will want to ask questions. It is Allah(swt) who leads people to us, we do not assume that people want to hear us or even welcome our words.

It may not seem to be a method of sharing Islam to those who resort to more covert methods, but it does bring the word to those who genuinely want to serve Allah(swt) and as a result Islam is spreading rapidly and without coercion or any misleading statements. It is Allah(swt) alone who brings people to Islam, we can only be simple tools to help them navigate through the tangles of lies they have been told.

There is no compulsion in religion. A person needs to choose from their own free will and not because of propaganda.

 

[Redeemed]

This thread is coming to a head

 

[MustafaMc]

Love is all we Christians have, and it is our most powerful force. If it weren't for that, we wouldn't want to be here, and I for one, don't agree with Pat Robertson on every point.

OK, show me where you disagree with him. Quote something he said about Islam that you don't agree with and believe that he is wrong about.

We Christians on this forum love you too much to let you continue on the path of a Christless eternity. I believe that is the edge we have over you. WE CAN LOVE YOU BUT YOU CAN'T LOVE US. I find that limitation in your believe system reprehensible.

Although I try to be friendly, I don't take unbelievers as intimate friends. Quran 5:57 O believers! Do not make your protecting friends those, from among the people who were given the Book before you and the unbelievers, who have made your religion a mockery or pastime, fear Allah if you are true believers. and 43: 57 On that Day, even friends will become enemies to one another with the exception of the righteous people.

Love is the most powerful weapon in the universe. I don't think you know that. If it weren't for love we all wouldn't be here as God's creation. God loves you and me; he loves his creation and his church. God would cease to be God if it weren’t for his love. That is who God is. He is love in the highest sense of the word.

Allah is more than "Love". He is also just to punish those that deny Him and associate others with Him in worship.

One cannot have more love than to lay down his life for a friend. That is what Jesus did for us. Your not believing he died is you believing a lie that is designed to destroy you. I don’t want that to happen to you. This is not persecution.

I don't see this as being divinely inspired, rather a creation of man

I would be telling you these words in a country or place that forbids it. In other words, I would risk my life to tell you something that would get me imprisoned or worse put to death.
You are loved

Still that does not make Christianity any less a misguidance.

 

[Redeemed]

There are many ways to spread Islam. the best way is to share Islam by living as a Muslim so that people will ask why you have so much inner peace.

Another is to always be available to answer questions to the best of your ability

The truth does not have to be Evangelized or unwantedly imposed upon others. In fact that is a great mistake, as an error on an Evangelists part, will lead people to Hellfire. I see Evangelism as a tool of shaytan, to lead people away from God(swt) while believing they have found the path to heaven. Evangelists teach people to Love a religious concept and never learn to love God(swt).

Another way is such as this forum, in which people of all faiths can come look and learn about Islam. All sides of it and even our own errors we can make in trying to defend what we believe. We are very open and do not try to hide the errors we do make. we also are very open in speaking of how much we love Islam and the reasons why we know it is the truth. We do not go into other peoples homes unless we know the door is open and we are invited to speak of our beliefs. But, we do try to live a visible life in which people will want to ask questions. It is Allah(swt) who leads people to us, we do not assume that people want to hear us or even welcome our words.

It may not seem to be a method of sharing Islam to those who resort to more covert methods, but it does bring the word to those who genuinely want to serve Allah(swt) and as a result Islam is spreading rapidly and without coercion or any misleading statements. It is Allah(swt) alone who brings people to Islam, we can only be simple tools to help them navigate through the tangles of lies they have been told.

There is no compulsion in religion. A person needs to choose from their own free will and not because of propaganda.

I can say the same about Christianity, but Islam is growing fast, and I will be the first to admit, I find that very perplexing. I shudder to think of what would happen if they had an evangelical thrust. They might grow twice as fast. I am not trying to give you guys ideas, but don't you think that Allah will accuse you for not doing what would be the most effective stratergy for winning people to Islam? I almost wish Muslims would.

 

[Redeemed]

OK, show me where you disagree with him. Quote something he said about Islam that you don't agree with and believe that he is wrong about. Although I try to be friendly, I don't take unbelievers as intimate friends. Quran 5:57 O believers! Do not make your protecting friends those, from among the people who were given the Book before you and the unbelievers, who have made your religion a mockery or pastime, fear Allah if you are true believers. and 43: 57 On that Day, even friends will become enemies to one another with the exception of the righteous people.
Allah is more than "Love". He is also just to punish those that deny Him and associate others with Him in worship. I don't see this as being divinely inspired, rather a creation of man Still that does not make Christianity any less a misguidance.

I see your point, but it does prove love and a pure motive! Justice and mercy are all part of love. I don't know what Pat R. says about Muslims. I was talking about his Christian theology.

 

[Woodrow]

Those isolated incidents you speak of happen to Christians too. I didn't bother to mention those. You make it sound like those Muslims did it out of anger only and out of an overwhelming moment of rage. You didn't mention how this is really built into their belief system and they sought out these Christians deliberately. It is true that Christians go into countries with the intention to evangelize. You call them invaders. I call it obeying the great commission. Jesus said, "Go ye into all the world and make disciples of every nation." Mark 16:15 But if you feel that Christianity is being forced down your throat by me then I asked God's forgiveness for being such an unprofitable servant to him, but I will continue to try to obey him the right way.

One part of your quote above makes me realize you have been mistaken about Islam.

You didn't mention how this is really built into their belief system

True some Muslims may believe in that manner. But, remember Islam is very individual. It is our own responsibility to seek out the truth. we do not rely upon the teachings of mere instructors. a good instructor will acknowledge to his students that he is capable of error. It is only the Word of Allah(swt) that is free from error. An Instructor can only guide us to where we may find the proper word. It is up to us how we use that word.

Who is a Muslim?:

A person who believes in and consciously follows Islam is called a Muslim, also from the same root word. So, the religion is called "Islam," and a person who believes in and follows it is a "Muslim."


all Muslims have very simple Identical beliefs, our overall belief system that applies to all Muslims is:


1) Belief in God:

2) Belief in the Angels:

3) Belief in God’s Revealed Books:

4) Belief in the Prophets and Messengers of God:

5) Belief in the Day of Judgment:

6) Belief in Al-Qadar:

Muslims believe in Al-Qadar, which is Divine Predestination, but this belief in Divine Predestination does not mean that human beings do not have freewill. Rather, Muslims believe that God has given human beings freewill. This means that they can choose right or wrong and that they are responsible for their choices.

The belief in Divine Predestination includes belief in four things: 1) God knows everything. He knows what has happened and what will happen. 2) God has recorded all that has happened and all that will happen. 3) Whatever God wills to happen happens, and whatever He wills not to happen does not happen. 4) God is the Creator of everything.

Those above are the the beliefs shared by all Muslims. those are the only beliefs that can truly be said are the belief system of all Muslims.

It is true there are many cultural differences in other areas.

A person from Pakistan has different cultural values than a person from Saudi Arabis, which differ from a person from New York which differ from a Texan, which differ from a Malaysian .......etc.

But we have the same beliefs as the 6 above and those may even be the only beliefs we have in common. But, because we share those beliefs we are Muslim.

Now to live as a Muslim we are obligated to follow the Pillars of Faith which are:

* Testimony of faith (Kalima)
* Prayer (Salat)
* Fasting (Sawm)
* Almsgiving (Zakat)
* Pilgrimage (Hajj)


Those are the Beliefs we are universaly taught as Muslims. Anything that goes outside of those are cultural beliefs and do not necessarily mean they are Islamic beliefs.

 

[Redeemed]

One part of your quote above makes me realize you have been mistaken about Islam.




True some Muslims may believe in that manner. But, remember Islam is very individual. It is our own responsibility to seek out the truth. we do not rely upon the teachings of mere instructors. a good instructor will acknowledge to his students that he is capable of error. It is only the Word of Allah(swt) that is free from error. An Instructor can only guide us to where we may find the proper word. It is up to us how we use that word.

Who is a Muslim?:

A person who believes in and consciously follows Islam is called a Muslim, also from the same root word. So, the religion is called "Islam," and a person who believes in and follows it is a "Muslim."


all Muslims have very simple Identical beliefs, our overall belief system that applies to all Muslims is:


1) Belief in God:

2) Belief in the Angels:

3) Belief in God’s Revealed Books:

4) Belief in the Prophets and Messengers of God:

5) Belief in the Day of Judgment:

6) Belief in Al-Qadar:

Muslims believe in Al-Qadar, which is Divine Predestination, but this belief in Divine Predestination does not mean that human beings do not have freewill. Rather, Muslims believe that God has given human beings freewill. This means that they can choose right or wrong and that they are responsible for their choices.

The belief in Divine Predestination includes belief in four things: 1) God knows everything. He knows what has happened and what will happen. 2) God has recorded all that has happened and all that will happen. 3) Whatever God wills to happen happens, and whatever He wills not to happen does not happen. 4) God is the Creator of everything.

Those above are the the beliefs shared by all Muslims. those are the only beliefs that can truly be said are the belief system of all Muslims.

It is true there are many cultural differences in other areas.

A person from Pakistan has different cultural values than a person from Saudi Arabis, which differ from a person from New York which differ from a Texan, which differ from a Malaysian .......etc.

But we have the same beliefs as the 6 above and those may even be the only beliefs we have in common. But, because we share those beliefs we are Muslim.

Now to live as a Muslim we are obligated to follow the Pillars of Faith which are:

* Testimony of faith (Kalima)
* Prayer (Salat)
* Fasting (Sawm)
* Almsgiving (Zakat)
* Pilgrimage (Hajj)


Those are the Beliefs we are universaly taught as Muslims. Anything that goes outside of those are cultural beliefs and do not necessarily mean they are Islamic beliefs.

Most of what you shared is common to Christians as well with the exception of having to take a pilgrimage. All the others we need to do, but our salvation is not contingent on it. But I thought i read that Muhammad said kill the infidels?:?

 

[MustafaMc]

I see your point, but it does prove love and a pure motive! Justice and mercy are all part of love.

Please, explain which part of the definition of "love" applies to sending someone to burn in the Hellfire for eternity. That sounds a lot more like the Wrath of God rather than His Mercy. I fear the Wrath of Allah and hope in His Mercy. As the song by Tina Turner goes - "What's love got to do with it?"

I don't know what Pat R. says about Muslims. I was talking about his Christian theology.

Take the time to find out using the search that I suggested. I am sure that you will find much in common with his views about Islam. I challenge you to find a quote that Pat R. made about Islam that you disagree with.

 

[Redeemed]

Please, explain which part of the definition of "love" applies to sending someone to burn in the Hellfire for eternity. That sounds a lot more like the Wrath of God rather than His Mercy. I fear the Wrath of Allah and hope in His Mercy. As the song by Tina Turner goes - "What's love got to do with it?"Take the time to find out using the search that I suggested. I am sure that you will find much in common with his views about Islam. I challenge you to find a quote that Pat R. made about Islam that you disagree with.

no, I meant my being willing to risk my live to share the gospel proves love and a pure motive. Can you please send me the link of what Pat R. says about Muslims?

 

[Woodrow]

Most of what you shared is common to Christians as well with the exception of having to take a pilgrimage. All the others we need to do, but our salvation is not contingent on it. But I thought i read that Muhammad said kill the infidels?:?

well to begin with infidel was what the crusaders called Muslims. It is an English concept. somehow Hollywood movies have turned into being a statement of Muslims.

Now for what Muhammad actually said, I can not find anything specific in the Hadith where he says to kill infidels, non-believers, Kaffirs etc.

But, I still have much to learn of the hadith.

so what does the Qur'an say, I know there are several ayyats that when taken out of contxt seem to justify the killing of non-believers. But, all that i recall when taken in their entirety are speaking of war against aggressors. I can not think off hand of any specific ayyat you are referring to. I know there is one commonly quoted by non-believers to justify that belief, but it is taken out of context. I can not recall which ayyat that is. It has been explained many times on this forum and clearly shows it is related to warfare.

 

[MustafaMc]

no, I meant my being willing to risk my live to share the gospel proves love and a pure motive. Can you please send me the link of what Pat R. says about Muslims?

I would not say willing to risk your life has anything to do with love for the unbeliever in Christianity such as myself, rather your love of Jesus (pbuh) and the strength of your belief that you are right and a conviction to show others "the Truth" of Christianity. I would share a similar willingness to risk my life, but for the sake of my love for Allah and for sharing the Truth of Islam and not for a supposed love for the unbeliever.

Don't you know how to do a google search? http://www.google.com/

A few websites as requested.
http://www.muslimaccess.com/articles/islamophobes/pat_robertson.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Robertson#Remarks_against_Islam_and_Muslims
http://www.cbn.com/blogs/scottross/031506pat-on-islam.aspx
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/02/24/robertson.islam/index.html

 

[Redeemed]

I would not say willing to risk your life has anything to do with love for the unbeliever in Christianity such as myself, rather your love of Jesus (pbuh) and the strength of your belief that you are right and a conviction to show others "the Truth" of Christianity. I would share a similar willingness to risk my life, but for the sake of my love for Allah and for sharing the Truth of Islam and not for a supposed love for the unbeliever.

Don't you know how to do a google search? http://www.google.com/

A few websites as requested.
http://www.muslimaccess.com/articles/islamophobes/pat_robertson.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Robertson#Remarks_against_Islam_and_Muslims
http://www.cbn.com/blogs/scottross/031506pat-on-islam.aspx
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/02/24/robertson.islam/index.html

Yes, I agree. I would be doing it out of my love for God. I am sure you can identify with that.

 

[MustafaMc]

Yes, I agree. I would be doing it out of my love for God. I am sure you can identify with that.

Yes, I can identify with a motive to witness for the love of God.

 

[Redeemed]

I would not say willing to risk your life has anything to do with love for the unbeliever in Christianity such as myself, rather your love of Jesus (pbuh) and the strength of your belief that you are right and a conviction to show others "the Truth" of Christianity. I would share a similar willingness to risk my life, but for the sake of my love for Allah and for sharing the Truth of Islam and not for a supposed love for the unbeliever.

Don't you know how to do a google search? http://www.google.com/

A few websites as requested.
http://www.muslimaccess.com/articles/islamophobes/pat_robertson.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Robertson#Remarks_against_Islam_and_Muslims
http://www.cbn.com/blogs/scottross/031506pat-on-islam.aspx
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/02/24/robertson.islam/index.html

I read some of the link you sent and now I am more confused than ever. I just read a little to get the gist of where it was going. Here is the part that stands out:

And I want to show you the statement of the Study of Islam and Democracy, signed on by dozens and dozens of individuals and groups where they said, "We wish again to state unequivocally that neither the al-Qaeda organization nor Usama bin Laden represents Islam or reflects Muslim beliefs and practice. Rather, groups like al-Qaeda have misused and abused Islam in order to fit their own radical and indeed anti-Islamic agenda."

And this is again signatories all over the place, dozens. They speak for mainstream Muslims in America and worldwide.

ROBERTSON: You know, I hate to tell you, Alan, but that is absolute falsehood, not on your part, but on the part of those who signed it. All you have to do is read the writings of Mohammed in the Koran. He urges people to attack the infidels. He urges his followers to kill Christians and Jews. He talks about eradicating all of the Jews. This man was an absolute wild-eyed fanatic. He was a robber and a brigand. And to say that these terrorists distort Islam, they're carrying out Islam.

I used to believe just the way Pat R. spoke, but since I have been on this forum I started to see it more like Alan states, but now I am confused, bc I looked at the persecuted Christians and the terrorist attacks and I compare it with the way you are and there is such a blantant contrast. I think the scary thing is Woodrow is right about Islam being an individualized religion. I honestly believe that there are Muslims that think and believe like the former statements, but there are those who believe and act on the later. I am not sure you know the path you are taking yourself and what it is eventually leading you to do. Muhammad does state in the Koran to attack the infidels. My feelings are mix about Islam at this point, and it is a very powerful and scary religion to me. It might sound like I am glorifying Islam, but I am not. I have a gut feeling if it keeps growing the way it is, I will eventually be martyred by a Muslim, because I have no intentions to follow Islam, and it won't be long before we are confronted with it at our doorsteps. :exhausted :rollseyes